6th edition Barrage rules Q

[JMichael]

I read some posts regarding whether or not the BS is ever subtracted and 'sniping' with barrage.

Barrage p34 (paraphrasing)
Use the rules for Blast & Large Blast with the following exceptions:
* Barrage can fire indirectly. When firing indirectly the BS of the firer is not subtracted.
* To determine whether a unit is wounded and for wound allocation, assume the shot is coming from center of blast marker.
* Barrage has the Pinning rule.


The first bullet point is specific to indirect fire (no LoS).
The second bullet point deals with the wound allocation and does not reference indirect fire at all (i.e. does not say 'when firing indirectly always consider the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker).

As I read it, it's still pretty much the same as 5th edition (you do subtract BS when you have LoS) with the addition of wound allocation, which seems to happen the same regardless of LoS or not.

[Wildcard]

The first bullet point is specific to indirect fire (no LoS).

As I read it, it's still pretty much the same as 5th edition (you do subtract BS when you have LoS) with the addition of wound allocation, which seems to happen the same regardless of LoS or not.


This is how i see it:
Indirect does not necessarily mean that the firer has no line of sight to the target. Imperial Guard Basilisk can fire ordnance barrage, that has minimum range of 36" (iirc). This means there are benefits and drawbacks:

Barrage:
- Barrage hits the side armor (right?)
- You can go for that "Shooter counts to be in the middle"- stuff
- You dont substract BS to counter the benefits of lobbing shells

Direct Fire:
- You can choose to fire with greater accuracy, and to inside that minimum range (inside that 36", and substract BS)
- You wont automatically hit the side armor
- Your shots count as coming from the direction you are at.


The second bullet point deals with the wound allocation and does not reference indirect fire at all
That bulletpoint is still under the "barrage" rules"

[JMichael]

I don't see anywhere in the rules that mentions 'Direct Fire' or choosing 1 of 2 firing modes.
If the target is in the weapon's minimum range, you still fire an 'Indirect' shot and do not subtract your BS (first bullet point).
The section labeled Barrage on p34 is for all barrage weapons, not just those firing at targets out of LoS.

They follow the rules for Blast weapons (i.e. subtract the BS if target is in LoS) with the following exceptions:

If target is out of LoS and/or within Minimum Range you do not subtract the firers BS from the scatter dice.
Wound allocation is determined from the center of blast marker.
All barrage weapons have the Pinning rule

[Bellumvinco]

Barrage weapons CAN fire indirectly. This means they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to and/or a target that is within the weapon's minimum range (if it has one).

Meaning it can direct fire or fire indirectly.

If it can't see it's target or if the target is within the weapon's minimum rane (if it has one) it must fire indirectly.
If the target is in sight and out-side of the weapon's minimum range (if it has one) it can direct fire.

Thats it. Very simple. Don't over think it and don't try to make rules match what you want them to mean by focusing on and twisting the meaning of a single. Hmm...define Relative. Lololol

[DarkLink]

The rules boil down to this:

Barrage weapons are blast weapons.

Barrage weapons may target units they cannot draw LOS to, or is within the weapon's minimum range, but scatter the full 2d6 if they do.

Wound allocation and cover saves are determined from the center of the blast marker.

Pinning and stuff.

Simple. I'm not even sure what the question in this thread is.

[Idolator]

It is pretty simple. A barrage weapon fires as barrage whether firing "directly" or indirectly.

The rules listed aren't for weapons "firing as barrage" they are for all weapons listed as barrage.

The word ALWAYS is used through out. Such as always count as pinning, always hit side armor, always count wounds and line of sight from center of blast.

There is a further rule for barrage weapons on pg. 100 that states that barrage weaopns always hit the top floor under the center hole of the blast marker.

There are no rules for anything else. There used to be in past editions, but no longer. To argue anything else would be same as arguing that they really didn't mean to assign AP values to power weapons because the rules used to be different (and better for me).

You can no longer decide that your barrage weapon isn't barrage ,just as you can't decide that your battle tank is going to fire as barrage. It actualy makes more sense this way.

[JMichael]

Idolator has it right.
There is no such thing as 'direct' fire for Barrage weapons. We must be careful using that term as there are weapons like the Basilisk that specifically mention "The weapon is Barrage regardless of LoS to the target and thus must follow the rules for barrage. Only real difference is you can subtract your BS if you have LoS to the target.

[sjwilliamsii]

I have 2 further questions regarding how barrage is worked out....

First, This may be a little complex to follow but please bear with me.
If lets say for example there is a squard of 10 first marker scores a hit and covers 4. The second marker also scores a hit and the second marker is placed directly over the first marker scoring an addition 4 hits.
Now we work out the wounds and lets say all 8 end up wounding, there is no cover and no armour or invuln saves....The models are removed from the closet to the center of the marker...once the first 4 models are removed, do the remaving 4 go to the 6 guys that were not under the template at all?

Second, If I have a griffon and 2 bassies, the griffon in front, fires first as it is closet to the target unit and gets a hit, but is 13" away. This is within the minum for the griffon, but what about the bassies? Do the bassies' just roll the scatter dice and place the template touching the first template or do they roll seperately?

[Patrick Boyle]

I have 2 further questions regarding how barrage is worked out....

First, This may be a little complex to follow but please bear with me.
If lets say for example there is a squard of 10 first marker scores a hit and covers 4. The second marker also scores a hit and the second marker is placed directly over the first marker scoring an addition 4 hits.
Now we work out the wounds and lets say all 8 end up wounding, there is no cover and no armour or invuln saves....The models are removed from the closet to the center of the marker...once the first 4 models are removed, do the remaving 4 go to the 6 guys that were not under the template at all?

Second, If I have a griffon and 2 bassies, the griffon in front, fires first as it is closet to the target unit and gets a hit, but is 13" away. This is within the minum for the griffon, but what about the bassies? Do the bassies' just roll the scatter dice and place the template touching the first template or do they roll seperately?

For the first, yes, the wounds are just allocated as though the attack came from the center of the template, they're not limited to the models under the template.

No clue on your second question.

[Stone Edwards]

DarkLink is right:
pg 34 of BRB: "Barrage weapons CAN fire indirectly......WHEN firing indirectly, the BS skill is not subtracted from the scatter distance..."

By choosing your target you are also automatically choosing the fire mode. If outside LOS or within min range you are firing indirectly (again notice the CAN above which implies not always), if you have LOS and target is not closer than min range you do get to use your BS to subtract scatter distance.

Edit: To above: ummmm are the griffon and bassies all in the same vehicle squadron? That sounds wonky but I'm not familiar with IG AT ALL.

[Nabterayl]

The models are removed from the closet to the center of the marker...once the first 4 models are removed, do the remaving 4 go to the 6 guys that were not under the template at all?
Yes. The models that can be killed by a barrage weapon (or regular old blast) are not limited to those under the template. You've analyzed this one exactly correct.


Second, If I have a griffon and 2 bassies, the griffon in front, fires first as it is closet to the target unit and gets a hit, but is 13" away. This is within the minum for the griffon, but what about the bassies? Do the bassies' just roll the scatter dice and place the template touching the first template or do they roll seperately?
(EDIT: Yes, a single Ordnance Battery squadron from the IG codex can have a Griffon and two Basilisks in the squadron.) As written, this isn't necessarily a problem. So long as all three vehicles are firing indirectly, they can ignore their minimum ranges. If you're asking whether the Basilisks can fire directly just because the Griffon can, the answer is no. Nothing prevents some Barrage weapons in a unit from firing directly while others in that same unit fire indirectly, and in this case, the Basilisks have no choice but to fire indirectly or not at all.

That said, whether the unit has a mix of direct and indirect fire has nothing to do with the rules regarding multiple barrage templates. Whether all three guns fire directly, indirectly, or have a mix of both modes, you still follow the special barrage rules for market placement (subsequent markers are must be touching the initial one).

[Hal]

I'll just follow up with a question regarding multiple barrage..
If a unit is allowed to re-roll to hit rolls, is it also allowed to re-roll the scatter die/dice after the initial shot?

[Nabterayl]

Not inherently, no. Consider the example of Twin-Linked, which specifically instructs us as to its effect with blast weapons. Twin-Linked is also a good example for demonstrating that there's also a difference between re-rolling the "scatter dice" (the die with an arrow on it) and re-rolling the distance dice (the 2d6).

[Hal]

Sorry I didn't really understand the last bit..

I was having discussions about this issue and some people do not allow opponents to re-roll the their scatter dice but the first in multiple barrage (which I think is wrong).
Nowhere does it say the weapon becomes twin linked as you mentioned..

Let's imagine I have the Prescience power which says:
"...the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls." pg. 420.

Re-rolls for blast weapons work like this:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6." pg. 33.

Then i have my unit with multiple barrage shots where the rule says:
"The Barrage weapon closest to the target unit fires first. Place the blast marker over the target, then roll for scatter as described earlier" pg. 34.

Obviously if this one misses, I'm allowed to re-roll the dice. Let's say i hit with it, and continue following the rules for multiple barrage:
"Once the first marker is placed roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

I believe we can agree that that the other barrage weapons in the unit are also shooting normally. One by one, and each weapon is throwing its own scatter die to determine if it hit or not.
Here comes the confusing part.. We have two outcomes:
1: "If an arrow is rolled, place the marker in the direction indicated so that it is next to and touching the edge of the first marker placed."
2: "If a Hit! is rolled, the firing player places the marker so that it touches any part of any marker in the group that has already been placed."

At this point the 2D6 dice are disregarded and replaced by a new mechanic which just shifts the markers differently described by this rule for scattering:
"Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than 2D6, in which case, just replace the 2D6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule.." pg. 6.

My conclusion is that all the weapons in the multiple barrage unit are normal shots just being worked out somewhat differently from the first shot. And therefore they should be allowed to re-roll the result if they don't hit.

[Nabterayl]

My conclusion is that all the weapons in the multiple barrage unit are normal shots just being worked out somewhat differently from the first shot. And therefore they should be allowed to re-roll the result if they don't hit.
Ah, sorry, I didn't understand the scenario that you were getting at. Yes, I agree with you that in a multiple barrage that is permitted to re-roll failed To Hit rolls, subsequent markers are permitted to re-roll the scatter die. I think you've marshaled the relevant passages.

To the extent people are arguing that "the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6" means that if you don't roll 2D6 at all, you cannot reroll the scatter die ... send those people back to their symbolic logic class, I guess? "If A then B and C" does not imply "if not C then not B."

[Hal]

... send those people back to their symbolic logic class, I guess? "If A then B and C" does not imply "if not C then not B."

Yes, my point exactly.. :)

[sjwilliamsii]

Yes. The models that can be killed by a barrage weapon (or regular old blast) are not limited to those under the template. You've analyzed this one exactly correct.


(EDIT: Yes, a single Ordnance Battery squadron from the IG codex can have a Griffon and two Basilisks in the squadron.) As written, this isn't necessarily a problem. So long as all three vehicles are firing indirectly, they can ignore their minimum ranges. If you're asking whether the Basilisks can fire directly just because the Griffon can, the answer is no. Nothing prevents some Barrage weapons in a unit from firing directly while others in that same unit fire indirectly, and in this case, the Basilisks have no choice but to fire indirectly or not at all.

That said, whether the unit has a mix of direct and indirect fire has nothing to do with the rules regarding multiple barrage templates. Whether all three guns fire directly, indirectly, or have a mix of both modes, you still follow the special barrage rules for market placement (subsequent markers are must be touching the initial one).

What I am asking is since the Griffon has a minimum range of 12" and the Basilisks have a minimum of 24", If the squadron fires barrage and the Griffon is the closest model would the Basilisks still place their templates touching the first (Griffon's templete). Effectively this would render the Basiilisks minimum range reduced to 12".

My veiw is that this would be no different from having a squardron of three Basilisks where the first template scatters to below the minimum and the other two still getting placed in relations to the first shot.

[Nabterayl]

The Griffon does not change the Basilisks' minimum range. If the target point is known to be within the Basilisks' minimum range, then they must either fire indirectly or not fire at all. Since the target point is outside the Griffon's minimum range, it can fire directly or indirectly as it chooses.

Either way, the multiple barrage rules are used. In 6th edition, a barrage weapon that fires directly is not treated as a regular blast weapon. Barrage weapons follow the rules for multiple barrage placement, wound from the center of the template, have Pinning, always hit vehicles against their side armor, and so forth, whether firing directly or indirectly. The only differences that indirect fire makes are (i) line of sight is not required, (ii) minimum range is ignored, and (iii) the BS skill of the firer is not subtracted (note - even if the firer can see the target).

So, if the target point is known to be outside the Griffon's minimum range and inside the Basilisks', the Griffon can (and probably should) fire directly, and the Basilisks can fire indirectly. The Griffon's marker will be placed first, and the Basilisks' will follow the normal rules for multiple barrage placement. Alternatively, the Griffon can (and probably should) fire directly, and the Basilisks can not fire at all.

Note that, in 6th edition, even if all three guns were firing directly, they would still follow the rules for multiple barrage placement. The days when this would result in three independent scatter rolls are gone.