Serious Rules Debate the FAQ Does Not Address

[oni]

Are you allowed to purposefully spend more command points than what you drew if you believe that you can secure the win? Example: Mission One - I draw 2 command points (My sergeant is dead so I can't turn it in for a second grab) The heavy flamer uses all 4 of his AP's to move into place, all I need to do is open the door and flame the room to secure the win. Can I expending more command points than I drew to make this happen?

I know the rules say if the SM player spends more CP's than what was drawn they lose, but the command point chip doesn't get flipped up until victory conditions have been checked in the Mission Status phase.

It seems to me that it's possible as a kind of a last chance, all or nothing push for the win. What do you think?

[robertsjf]

So you burn the fake cp, complete the mission, then flip the chip and lose?

[Alvena]

No ! You can't ! ;)

Because thats is still just cheating otherwise you can always use 6 command point on the very last turn of the game.

It seems obvious to me that you can only win if:
* 1 Victory condition are met so the game ends
* 2 You have not cheated (so your trustable enough to play another game with)

So IMHO this stuff is cheating and that's not the spirit of a good game

[Superbran]

By that logic, what is the point of playing? Turn one, I spend a million command points to get my guys to complete the objective before the genestealer even gets a turn. Good game.

[oni]

No ! You can't ! ;)

Because thats is still just cheating otherwise you can always use 6 command point on the very last turn of the game.

It seems obvious to me that you can only win if:
* 1 Victory condition are met so the game ends
* 2 You have not cheated (so your trustable enough to play another game with)

So IMHO this stuff is cheating and that's not the spirit of a good game

Actually, I think it is in the spirit of the game. One last desperate push to achieve victory. How is that not entirely in line with what Space Hulk is about?


By that logic, what is the point of playing? Turn one, I spend a million command points to get my guys to complete the objective before the genestealer even gets a turn. Good game.

You're taking it way to far. The mission display limits you to six.

[oni]

So you burn the fake cp, complete the mission, then flip the chip and lose?

No, it's assuming that once the victory condition has been met the game ends instantly.

[Alvena]

i understand very well what you said.
but i disagree with your point:

game ends instantly

This point will never, and can not, allow you to overrun the rules.
"Rules As Intention" said if you have "accidentally" used a excedent CP the game end loosing under the gibe of your opponant.
We are not supposed to try to cheat: (IE Purposely use more CP than we drawn)

As Superbran said if you can perform even 1 or more action(s) that are not legaly permited and suffer not any counterpart (IE: Having lost the game) why can't you cheat all the time ?

I do agree that a desperate move can implie to sacrifice you own men, to make incredible action with your CP, but i disagree that if you met the victory condition with some tricky-sneaky action as "i have cheated but i have won no matter the cost" is what we could call a good game.

Well just my 2 pence

[Gotthammer]

A guy at my local suggested the same thing. And like you said if you spend more CPs than you drew you lose. Just because you found a cheap loophole to avoid showing you cheated doesn't mean it's not cheating.

You'd win but I'd never play you again.

[Angelic Despot]

I agree with the way everyone else seems to see it. It would be cheating.

If you were meant to do it, there would be a rule that specifically allowed you to do it. The whole game is (supposed to be) nail-biting, down to the wire stuff, where you take lots of risks. You don't need to 'give it one last push' by cheating at the end to make the game exciting or close.

[AirHorse]

Im not totaly sure, but despite the outrage against such a suggestion I personally would accept it. You can only lose by having used more than required when the token is revealed, and it is only revealed AFTER you check if youve won(which you are supposed to do in mission status phase even though it might be obvious half the time when it happens). So if you ask me, you could use an extra couple to achieve a win, but if its not a dead cert when you go for it then its a definate gamble :P

[Herald of Nurgle]

This is probably why, whenever I play Space Hulk, we do it TWICE. If you choose the screwy route... then what is stopping your opponent choosing the screwy route on HIS turn?

The counter for CP is revealed after the end of the Genestealer turn, and the Genestealers won't get a turn if you achieve the objective. It is perfectly optional for you to use more than your pot in this situation, as technically you didn't need to reveal it anyway. As long as you don't use more than 7 CP (since it's just TOO broken if you use say 'a million' like someone else pointed out above) I don't give a deadly damn about your choice.

[Gotthammer]

It is perfectly optional for you to use more than your pot in this situation, as technically you didn't need to reveal it anyway.

"The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, and if he has used more command points than he had available he immediately loses the game." (Rulebook, Pg 9)

Doesn't sound very optional to me. Sure the Genestealer player technically doesn't find out, but it doesn't mean you aren't doing something that, by the rules, means you lose automatically.

It's like saying it's ok to roll dice with a 6 instead of a 1, as your opponent won't be handling your dice so will never know.

[AirHorse]

You should quote the whole section, because its relevent. That is talking about when you reveal the command point token in the mission status phase. The entire section reads "The command points counter is revealed in the status phase at the end of the turn. The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, and if he has used more command points than he had available he immediately loses the game."

[Gotthammer]

Why? I thought it was ok to leave out bits if that helps me win ;)

But seriously, it doesn't say "when the counter is turned over/when the genestealer player looks at the counter, if it shows more etc etc..." it says in black and white: "The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter", and any other turn you did it would result in an instant loss - due to it being cheating!.
Avoiding it via technicality doesn't stop it being against the rules. Are drug cheats in sport ok so long as they don't get caught? How about cheating in an exam if you have a method whereby they'll never find your secret notes? Moving models around in a game of 40k while the other guy is away getting a drink? Putting only CP counters with six on them? It doesn't specifically say in the rules they have to be numbered from 1-6. Why not put some extra sand in the timer while you're at it? (I'm using a generic you[and ranting], I'm not saying you, AirHorse, would do or endorse any of those things).

What's the point in having it randomised then anyway, why not change the rule book to say "you randomly draw a CP counter, except when you really need a 6 to win - then you get to just pick it because sure it'd mean you instantly lose any other turn but winning is all that counts right?"

Also the whole thing falls down as it is the Genestealer player who moves the CP counter, so I think they'll look at it regardless.

[Angelic Despot]

It's also quite clearly against the spirit of the rules.

The rules are generally very simple and clearly written. You don't have very many options (you can basically only spend action points on moving and fighting, not hiding, modifying your weapons, tying your shoelaces etc), and everything you're supposed to be able to do is described in the rulebook. It just leaves the tactics and experience to the players to work out.

Trying to argue that you can cheat on a technicality is just obviously wrong, even if there is a 'technicality' to be exploited. And it's true that in a game where you're supposed to swap sides, this 'technicality' would benefit everyone equally.

But remember: using more CPs than you actually drew is illegal right the way through the game (and the stealer player is allowed to check the counter to make sure that you're not cheating). So why would it be any different on the last turn? If it was meant to me, there would be a rule: 'the marine player can choose to declare any turn his last and can spend an automatic 6 CPs this turn'.

If an athlete wins the olympics and is then found out to have been using drugs, the fact that he/she crossed the finishing line first counts for nothing: the medal is taken away and they're banned from racing again!

While you may check for victory before you check the number on the CP token, it doesn't mean you can't check the number on the token and find out that someone has cheated!

[AirHorse]

So far almost everyone who has posted saying this is cheating hasnt actually made a convincing arguement that it is, gotthammers point is fair enough, though I dont think the rules are meant to be interpreted like that. Which is the entire point of this discussion. I thought i would expand on other situations that makes me think it is fair so here goes.

Using more command points than you have available is possible in more than one way without it being cheating, go read the rules again without already being bias against this possibility.

It is the genestealers responsibility to move the counter along the track so if the genestealer player misses out on this the space marine player is not cheating by using an extra point that turn. If you want a spirit of the rules analogy, the space marines must have caught the genestealers off guard and have managed to steal a bit of initiative.

It is also possible to use say 5 command points when you drew 4 before you activate your librarian, and then once you have activated your librarian move the marker back down the track so that when it comes to mission status phase its right.

And no angelic despot, the genestealer player cannot just check to see if youve used more, it is revealed at the end of the mission status phase and this is, by a literal interpretation of the rules, the only point that you can lose the game for using more points than you have available. If it really was cheating to use more CP's at any point in the game, why the hell would they have mentioned it specifically in the mission status phase.

As I said before, i believe it is entirely legal to do so as long as you dont go beyond the end of the track. I would have no problem playing the game either way, but its rediculous to say that anyone applying a different interpretation of rules which arent 100% clear is an outrageous cheat and anyone who interpreted them different from you is totaly going against the spirit of the game.

[Gotthammer]

I took the Genestealer player moving the psi-point, CP and ammo counters to mean that it was freeing up the Marine player, since he's under a limited time allowance, rather than to allow them sneaking stuff by the Genestealers.

And in anycase, should the Genestealer player not move the counter, the Marine player look at the board and think he has more CPs due to that, that's not a calculated spending of more than is shown.
For example: I move my assault cannon guy four squares, then use a CP to fire. Dice are rolled and the Genestealer player moves the ammo tracker, but not the CP tracker. I then ask "how many CPs have I used?". He tells me 4, for arguments sake. I have looked at the counter and know I have 5 on there. If I've not been paying attention I may not notice I've spent one and it's not been counted, but if I do notice I'd say something - others may not, but that's up to them.
I think that's different to spending a CP evey time you fire the assault cannon because you've noticed the Genestealer player only ever moves one counter (as an extreme example).

Angelic Despot's point (and my own) about the Genestealer player looking was in regards to them having the tracker in front of them, so when the game immediately ends they may well look at the counter during packing up or resetting the board.

I'm interested to know what you would say to an opponent in that situation - you've won by using 6 CPs when your counter had less, and they've seen it after your 'victory'. Would you say that you won via a technicality since the game ended before they saw you had overspent? How would you feel if after a 40K game you lost you found out that the only reason your opponent contested your objective was because he said he rolled a 6 on his run roll to get his guys next to it, but had really rolled a 1? To me it's the same thing - you got one random result but knowingly picked a better one to win. Even with a technicality to avoid your opponent finding out, it was still done.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

I think if you sit down with your Genesteeler opponent and tell them that at the most crucial stage of the game, you are deliberatly going to use more Command Points than you may or may not have so that you can win the game because the rules say only to reveal the Command Points during the end phase of the Genesteelers turn by which time the game will already be won, they should be cool with it.

[Angelic Despot]

Why should you need to sit down with your opponent and tell them that at some point during the game, you may well use more CPs than you are allowed, and use this one turn of cheating / rules cleverness to try to win you the game?

Let me give you two examples to try to make my point better.

Argentina are playing England at football. Their star player, let's call him Maradona, decides to illegally use his hand to push the ball into the net, giving Argentina a winning goal. We can all agree that it's against the rules, and more than that, a sending off offence if done deliberately.

We can also agree that in this hypothetical situation, if the referee didn't see this (or the video footage until much later) and allowed the goal, then Argentina would have got the win. Referees have to stick with their decisions, even if they sometimes make the wrong ones. So tough luck England.

But that's no reason for football coaches to go around telling the kids they're training that it's okay to cheat as long as you don't get caught until it's too late to do anything about it.

Another example: if you're playing cluedo (clue, to Americans), there is nothing in the rules to stop one player saying to another: 'if you show me all of your cards in secret, the next time we play Risk I won't attack you on the first turn'. Nothing in the rules of either game prevent you from making this sort of deal.

And there is no need for a rule that prevents this if everyone plays according to the spirit of the rules. The Space Hulk rules were not put together by lawyers. They're not very complicated. They are much more like a board game's rules than a war game's rules in that respect. 40K deliberately has all kinds of combos and tricks you can exploit to beat your opponent. Most board games don't.

My arguement is that you should approach Space Hulk in the same way.

The sneaky 'last effort' using extra command points is a clever, rules-lawlyerly device. It's not a tactic that (to me) seems in the spirit of the other rules, which are designed to be simple, convenient and tense, the whole way through the game. I'm sure it never occurred to the designers to specifically state that you can't cheat / sneaky rules-lawyer a victory on the last turn.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

I agree, and sometimes forget internet doesnt translate my tongue in cheek attitude.

[the_puritan]

My friends and I have been playing it like this from the get-go and haven't had any problems with it at all.

I would assume that if they didn't want the Space Marine to have the "Final Epic Push" turn, they would have written it in reverse... with the command-point-check BEFORE the win-the-game-check.

The game is over after the check...
when someone wins at Monopoly, you don't roll the dice to see if they'd lose after... they already won.
when I bluff you off a pot in poker, you don't flip my cards over to see if I won "for real"... I already won.

It's not unbalanced, it's flavorful, and (more importantly) it's the way the rules are written.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

I would assume that if they didn't want the Space Marine to have the "Final Epic Push" turn, they would have written it in reverse... with the command-point-check BEFORE the win-the-game-check.

Would defeat the purpose of the bluff now wouldnt it.

[Gotthammer]

Also the making up your own command points only 'works' in one of the missions - Suicide mission where the victory criterea state the game ends immediately. All the others require checking the game status against the victory conditions and then checking the command points during the end phase.

A loophole in the wording of one out of twelve missions doesn't seem like RAI, and is dubiously RAW.

And just because the info for the not being allowed to use more than is given is written after the location of revealing proves nothing. It still says "the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter." Nobody has provided any argument to say how they get around this other than "the other guy will never know". And it doesn't say not to reveal the counter in case of a victory by either side, just that it is done after victory conditions are checked.

A previous example was given where more are used and the Librarian brings the total down later - I wouldn't do that. That's part of the complexity of the game; working out the order to activate guys, limited APs, random CPs and all under a time limit.

[the_puritan]

Would defeat the purpose of the bluff now wouldnt it.
The command point check happens at the end of the game turn... it's still a secret throughout both players turns.
If we reverse the order that the checks are done in the Mission Status Phase so that the command point check is done right before the victory condition check happens, you're still just as capable of pretending you've got more or less during the other phases of the turn.
...so, um, I don't really get what you mean here.


checking the game status against the victory conditions and then checking the command points during the end phase.
This must be where we differ in interpretation... You're putting the entire Mission Status Phase together as one single thing, where I read it as seperate steps.
I get that interpretation from the wording:

"The players should first check the victory conditions [...] to see if either of them has won."
...and then:
"After the victory conditions have been checked, the Space Marine player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expened more than he had for the turn."

After the game has been won, there's no more game to be played. "Game over, man!" as everyone likes to say while playing Space Hulk.

So, its possible to do this in any of the missions that have victory conditions... which they all do.


It still says "the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter."
Before the FAQ, this happend all the time by accident. Space Marine players would lose track of how many points they had to use and would go over. It still happens (although much less so now that we're more free to look at the counter).

My point is that players can and DO use more command points than the number shown on the counter (even players who don't use the Final Push turn). Nothing stops a player from using more command points... they will just lose the game when the command point check happens.


Nobody has provided any argument to say how they get around this other than "the other guy will never know". And it doesn't say not to reveal the counter in case of a victory by either side, just that it is done after victory conditions are checked.
heh... it's really not this dubiously shady thing that we're trying to get away with, its how the game is played.

We show the counter after the game is over most of the time... although most Genestealer players don't care how many points you were given that turn because they know you just pushed through. They usually give kudos for a game well played.
...and they know they might get the chance to do that when they play as Space Marines next.

Nobody is cheated. Nobody gets mad. Everyone has fun.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

The command point check happens at the end of the game turn... it's still a secret throughout both players turns.
If we reverse the order that the checks are done in the Mission Status Phase so that the command point check is done right before the victory condition check happens, you're still just as capable of pretending you've got more or less during the other phases of the turn.
...so, um, I don't really get what you mean here.

Only that you would lose instantly because you have used more Command Points than allowed.


It's not unbalanced, it's flavorful, and (more importantly) it's the way the rules are written.

.....and it is written so..... "the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter." Trying to justify your interpretation of the game mechanics with examples from other unrelated gaming systems (Monopoly & Poker) proves nothing.

[Gotthammer]

I get that interpretation from the wording:

"The players should first check the victory conditions [...] to see if either of them has won."
...and then:
"After the victory conditions have been checked, the Space Marine player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expened more than he had for the turn."

After the game has been won, there's no more game to be played. "Game over, man!" as everyone likes to say while playing Space Hulk.

It doesn't say that if one side has won to not check the CP counter, only to do it after the check - you quoted as much yourself.



Before the FAQ, this happend all the time by accident. Space Marine players would lose track of how many points they had to use and would go over. It still happens (although much less so now that we're more free to look at the counter).

Then those Marine players should pay more attention to what they're doing. It quite clearly says in the rules that if you overspend, you lose.


My point is that players can and DO use more command points than the number shown on the counter (even players who don't use the Final Push turn). Nothing stops a player from using more command points... they will just lose the game when the command point check happens.


heh... it's really not this dubiously shady thing that we're trying to get away with, its how the game is played.

It's funny reading what you wrote when you take the quote out of the middle. First paragraph the argument is that people spend more, and will then lose. Second paragraph - arguing that it's not shady to deliberately perform the act of spending more CPs (which you just admitted causes you to instantly lose) in the hope the other player won't find out.


We show the counter after the game is over most of the time... although most Genestealer players don't care how many points you were given that turn because they know you just pushed through. They usually give kudos for a game well played.
...and they know they might get the chance to do that when they play as Space Marines next.

Nobody is cheated. Nobody gets mad. Everyone has fun.

Then why not always use 6 CPs? Why not instantly end the game when you get into a position of needing 6CPs to win if you're just going to take them regardless of what the rules say you've been given? I'm yet to see anyone give a reference where it says you can spend more CPs than on the counter - only that you technically can avoid showing that you did in one specific instance in one mission.

If I was playing Genestealers I'd like to think that there was a fair and reasonable chance that even if my opponent needed 6CPs to pull off the win, he might not get it (due to the process being, you know, randomly determined) so I would have a fair chance, and not be blatantly lied to, with the excuse of "but I didn't think you'd find out".

I'd feel cheated if my opponent did that, just as a Marine Player would feel cheated if you only put 3 blips in the pile as Genestealers.

[the_puritan]

Only that you would lose instantly because you have used more Command Points than allowed.
What does that have to do with bluffing?
I'm having a real hard time following you...


It doesn't say that if one side has won to not check the CP counter, only to do it after the check
That's actually a really good point, it doesn't say in the rules to stop playing when one player wins the game. Is that just another house rule we made up to cheat the Genestealer players?

Seriously, if you take all of the Mission Status Phase and do the whole thing (regardless of weather any play has won or not) you would:
1 - check victory conditions
2 - flip the command point marker (and a Space Marine player would lose immediately if they used too many) remove any status markers.
3 - start a new turn.

...and you really do all of those every time?
So your games never end, since you have to start a new turn even if someone won?


Then those Marine players should pay more attention to what they're doing. It quite clearly says in the rules that if you overspend, you lose.
None of the people you play with have ever used more by accident?
Maybe the guys I'm playing with don't have as good of memories as the group you play with, but this does happen from time to time with us.
...and, when it does, those players lose in the Mission Status Phase immediately upon flipping the counter.
not to be confused with immediately upon using more Command Points than they have available.

Do you see the difference?
I'm not saying that players who overspend don't lose the game, I'm just saying there are certain instances when they might be able to win before they get a chance to lose.


in the hope the other player won't find out.

blatantly lied to, with the excuse of "but I didn't think you'd find out".
I'm not convinced that you're actually reading my posts because that's not at all what's happening and I said so before.
Please re-read the last paragraph I wrote in the other post.


I'd feel cheated if my opponent did that
I guess I'm fortunate enough to have a great group of (fairly) well adjusted adults who are looking for a fun, well played, competetive, game that everyone can enjoy.
If your mind immediately jumps to "cheating" and "getting away with [stuff]", I wonder if you need more trustworthy friends?

This seems like a real emotional subject for you and weather you're not fully reading what I'm typing or I'm just not putting it in a way you're able to understand, it doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that the OP knows that there are other people that play the game the way he/she does.
...and really, if you DON"T play that way, it's not that big of a deal. I think you're missing out on an aspect of the game that portrays the iconic resolve of the Space Marines, but I'm not going to accuse you of cheating.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

What does that have to do with bluffing?

Sure, you can bluff how many CPs you have, but it doesnt change the fact if you spend more CPs than you actually have (accident or not), you lose.

"the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter."

It seems like your completely ignoring this rule (ie; part of the actual game), if not I would be interested to know when and how you use it?

[the_puritan]

"the Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter."
Ok, if that were actually the case, players would be prevented from using more than they are allotted... however, nobody stops them from actually using more (accidentally or otherwise).
There isn't someone watching over them and slapping their hand when they are about to use another one everyone is free to use as many as they think they have.

The only system to ensure that a player does not use more than their allotment is the Mission Status Phase check that happens after the check to see who has won the game.


I would be interested to know when and how you use it?
I use this rule during the Mission Status Phase, when the counter is flipped (after victory conditions are checked).
If a player had (accidentally or otherwise) used more Command Points than they were allotted that turn, they lose at that point.

[Abominable Plague Marine]

Well, opinions seem to be pretty even both ways, and I guess it is just down to personal opinion. I'll mention this to my gaming group next time we play and see what they have to say on the matter, as long as we all agree or at least accept a decision one way or another, its all good.

Great topic, good discussion, I've said all I can on the matter.

[AirHorse]

What it actually says is this:

"The command points counter is revealed in the status phase at the end of the turn. The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, and if he has used more command points than he had available he immediately loses the game."

Missing out a very important first sentence of the paragraph. If it didnt say this and just said the second sentence then I would be in total agreement with the people who claim this as cheating.

Also the arguement that you "wouldnt like to lose like this" is completely irrelevant. Whether you, me or anyone else likes to lose like this isnt a basis for arguing the legality of someones actions. No one here is trying to cheat, infact the arguement that at the very end of the game space marines can make a desperate last ditch push is quite in spirit with the rules so please drop this whole "its cheating" arguement and get back to a discussion about interpretation of the rules.

[Gotthammer]

I guess I'm fortunate enough to have a great group of (fairly) well adjusted adults who are looking for a fun, well played, competetive, game that everyone can enjoy.
If your mind immediately jumps to "cheating" and "getting away with [stuff]", I wonder if you need more trustworthy friends?

This seems like a real emotional subject for you and weather you're not fully reading what I'm typing or I'm just not putting it in a way you're able to understand, it doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that the OP knows that there are other people that play the game the way he/she does.
...and really, if you DON"T play that way, it's not that big of a deal. I think you're missing out on an aspect of the game that portrays the iconic resolve of the Space Marines, but I'm not going to accuse you of cheating.

Firstly, I apologise if I have been overly aggresive towards you, it was not intended. Secondly I do agree that it is fine if both parties agree to it beforehand or is a special rule of some sort. I don't like the inference of the OP that it can be used to get one over the Genestealers however - that's what I'm not cool with: the idea of using the loophole of instant victory to avoid the checking of the counter to sneak a victory.

To re-itterate, the original question was "Can I expending more command points than I drew to make this happen? ". I still say no as, well, it's more points than you have available. I also still say that if you were able to use six whenever you felt like it you'd have nothing but sixes on the counters.

It is lying - a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie?db=luna) - and I call lying about a supposedly random element in a game to make it turn to your favour cheating. Be it a CP or a die roll, that's not cool in my book.

For an example, I was playing Rescue as Marines - my guy with the CAT was seven squares from safety, so I needed to draw 3CPs or more to win (one of the great Space Hulk maxims is "always plan as if you'll get 1CP"). I drew a 2. I lost, but could have easily used an extra point I did not get to win. But that victory would have been hollow had I done that. It was a "well played, competetive, game that everyone enjoyed", even for me though I lost.

My "mind immediately jumps to "cheating" and "getting away with [stuff]" because I would feel cheated if, when playing as Genestealers, my opponent used more CPs than were drawn. Given the CP token can be replicated with a D6 roll, lying about what is drawn is to me the same as lying about die rolls. I trust most people - I won't check a die roll I can't see 99% of the time and believe my opponents call of it - but if I found out later they had lied about it I'd be pissed, especially if it was the game winning roll.

[AirHorse]

We understand what you are saying gotthammer, but you are completely missing the point. This is NOT the same as lying about a dice roll or something similar. That is a generic example which although similar isnt actually relevant as dice rolls arent checked in a seperate phase of the game, and dont have a specific section of the rules written about how to deal with it at the point where they are checked.

Like I said before, if they had simply said you cant use more points than you have it would have been a non-issue, but they didnt. More to the point, why even bother to explain you get a random amount of points then have a seperate blurb about how if at the point its checked you cant have used more than allocated? If there werent expections it would never have even been mentioned. The fact that they say it as they did, mentioning a specific point at which it should be checked is indication that there ARE expections to the simple case of "you get this many points, no more".

[Gotthammer]

But my opinion is that the exception you refer to is not there in the rules, merely there through one reading of them - with which I disagree (and never the twain shall meet it appears :) ).

I have to go to the post office on Monday, so I think I'll write Jervis a letter and see what he has to say about proving me right... I mean ruling on the situation ;)

[oni]

Holy crap... you guys really ran with this. I've been in FL for the past week so I didn't get to chime in.

Firstly, all this talk about cheating and trying to get away with things doesn't do any good. I don't think anyone here is deliberately trying to deceive anyone else, especially not me... the original poster.



A General Summation: The game mechanic is there as a safe guard for the Genestealer player. It's to prevent the Space Marine player from "accidentally" spending to many CP's and gaining an upper hand through out the game. Imagine the game without the mechanic. There wouldn't be anything to stop the Space Marine player from using more CP's than drawn; and once revealed, no repercussion. Maybe an "Oh, I'm sorry, I'll try not to let it happen again." The space marine player not being "allowed" to spend more CP's then what was drawn has no merit without a rule to back it up with a repercussion.

Winning & The Mission Status Phase: Some believe that once the victory condition is met and a victor determined that the game instantly ends. Not true, the mission status phase will check victory conditions, but specifically says "as noted in the mission rules". So unless the mission rules say differently the rest of the mission status phase will be carried out, possibly negating the victory if to many CP's were spent. This is the case for all of the missions with one exception... Mission 1.

Mission 1: Mission one explicitly says [RAW] that once the victory condition is met the game ends immediatly. Do not finish your turn, do not go into the Genestealers turn, do not bother with the mission status phase, do not pass go, do not collect $200... GAME OVER! This is where the issue arises. Since the game ends immediately, CP's will not be checked and therefore have no baring on taking the win away. The title says it all... Suicide Mission, it's one last desperate attempt to secure the win OR you end up screwing yourself (committing suicide in essence) by spending to many CP's and loosing. I think for Mission 1 only, spending more CP's (up to 6) is perfectly within the rules and the spirit of the game.



I hope this helps some see my point of view rather using that ugly word "cheating". :)

[Alvena]

I want to thanks Oni and Gotthammer who has summerize/explained very well my point of view i wanted to defend.

Sorry for being one of the first saying the ugly word, English is still a foreign language, and it has been really helpfull to have Gotthammer explaining the same point of view i had.
I would be really happy to get the Jervis answer on that point, even if I have not encountered this probleme since i'm playing SH. (I only play SH with friends whom has the same point of view on this question).

[Xas]

why all this hot air?

just spend the 2minutes talking to your partner before the game. if you can't agree on one ruling, roll a d6. if you can't even agree on that you either are haveing enough fun arguing or should not play with each othe either.


My personal opinion is that it would be cool but make the game much less luck reliant (because the last turn has a good chance of your searge beeing dead so you rely on pure luck to get enough cp).

Additionally I think that it would ahve been written clearly that this is an option if it was intended (many things are written twice and trice to be KISS compatible. a good example is the broodlord. even though his rules state that he needs to recieve two wounds from the same source it is stated explicitly that he is immune to flamers and psychic storm).

[Ivarr]

What it actually says is this:

"The command points counter is revealed in the status phase at the end of the turn. The Space Marine player is not allowed to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, and if he has used more command points than he had available he immediately loses the game."

Missing out a very important first sentence of the paragraph. If it didnt say this and just said the second sentence then I would be in total agreement with the people who claim this as cheating.

Also the arguement that you "wouldnt like to lose like this" is completely irrelevant. Whether you, me or anyone else likes to lose like this isnt a basis for arguing the legality of someones actions. No one here is trying to cheat, infact the arguement that at the very end of the game space marines can make a desperate last ditch push is quite in spirit with the rules so please drop this whole "its cheating" arguement and get back to a discussion about interpretation of the rules.

I disagree with your logic on this one. The first sentence does not include anything along the lines of "if you don't get to this phase, ignore the first half of the next sentence." The second sentence states a rule and then assigns a punishment for breaking it. Before the comma it states very very clearly that the rule for the game is that the SM player may not use more command points than shown on the counter. The second half says that if he does he loses in this phase. To me this is just an argument about cheating. There is no way to contest the fact that Space Hulk only functions the way it does because of random command points, and there is no question that the rules say that the Space Marine player is NOT ALLOWED to use more command points than the number shown on the counter, so there really is no question here. It is not even an interpretation thing. It is not other players being mean and jumping to the "cheating" word. The rules are very clear, and anyone who tries to suspend any portion of the rules to win is "CHEATING"...not being clever. In addition, the idea of saying that maybe we should dice off because I disagree is appalling. That just means that half of the time you get to break the rules. Not cool. :mad::mad::mad:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Using more CPs than drawn results in a loss, even if done accidently. Even if you have a clear conscience.

Deliberately using more CPs is cheating.

It doesn't matter if you are clever and can spin a web to justify it.

A man murders another man. He has a clever lawyer and because his Mummy didn't let him have a Ken doll when he was a little boy, he gets off scott free. He is still a murderer, whether or not the prosecutor can make a case stick.

Those who say it is not cheating or that they are not convinced by counter arguments are obviously intelligent people. They have gone through the rule book with a comb and feel they have a good argument that it is not cheating.

Your conscious seems to tell you it is cheating, otherwise you would never have asked if it was.

Stop being a lawyer.

It is a game, that is supposed to be enjoyable. If you play like that you will leave a sour taste in your friends mouths. Is it really worth it? - when you know that you didn't really win anyway....

Please keep the game enjoyable for you and your mates. :D

[Commander Dante]

Absolutely not! If the Marines can't complete their objective with the initiative they draw, then they have insufficient means to achieve success!

If you are unfortunate enough to be 1 point away from victory, and are completely spent, then that is either bad luck or bad planning!

That is part of the fun and drama of the game; the random draw is part of the fabric of the story ( I use small cloth bags for both CP and Blip draws - adds anti-cheating factor).