Phoenix Lords - When is a retcon a retcon?

[eldargal]

Spoiler Alert: The ending of Path of the Warrior is partly revealed.

An interesting issue has been raised on Warseer regarding the nature of Phoenix Lords. Anyone who has read the Path setries by Gav Thorpe will know that an Exarch is a group consciousness made up of the souls of the individuals who have become exarchs of that Shrine over the years. But is that true of Phoenix Lords?

For the 'yes' vote we have this from White Dwarf 236 (1999):

Sirech realised that he could no longer discern which of the memories were his, and which belonged to others. A voice spoke to him then, soothing away his fears.

"Welcome, Exarch Sirech. With your essence, we shall live on"

Sirech felt the last vestiges of his true self dissappearing, and he felt like screaming, both in fear and joy.

Karandras opened his eyes and looked at the husk of the Exarch lying next to him. As he stood up, the Phoenix Lord's armour began to heal, the tears across his body closed up and sealed without a trace. Looking around the shrine, he recognised where he was from the memories of Sirech. Reaching into those same memories, he remembered where the Dome of the Crystal Seers could be found, and strode from the shrine, intent on warning the Farseers of the peril that lay ahead.

For the 'no' we have this from Path of the Warrior (2010):

He felt nothing of the warrior he had been. There were no memories, save his own. There was no spirit, save the one he had been born with. He

was Karandras, and Karandras alone.
There is also a line in Path of the Seer where Thirianna senses the compelte loss of Korlandrils soul within the gestalt entity of the Exarch he joined/became.

So, what do people think?

The person on Warseer who raised the issue says he thinks the Phoenix Lords are gestalt entities but the original personality is dominant. I disagree and maintain that it is probably simply a retcon, or if you must reconcile the two that the Phoenix Lord (briefly perhaps) maintains some of the last memories of the host to help orient him but he does not absorb the complete memories and personalities of those he absorbs.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'd go with the more recent one simply because the background is more up to date, so Path of the Warrior's version.

[Ulthwé Guardian]

I would go with the most recent info to.

However I do like the idea that it's possible that the memories of the 'host' body are absorbed into the (sub) conscience mind of the Phoenix Lord. The conscience mind of the Exarch maybe suppressed/annihilated but their memories and experience are probably accessible to the Phoenix Lord.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I can't remember what the 2nd ed codex says - but I'd always thought that the Phoenix Lords are always solely the Phoenix Lord, whoever it is that their current host was before they put on the suit. I think this is even stated fairly clearly. By the time of 3rd ed they may have been trying to change it - but I'd guess that Path of the Warrior marks a hard reversion to the original line, clear of ambiguity.

But I'm not up on my current Eldar fluff. :)

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I guess the more recent stuff takes precedence, but personally, I'd lean towards the Phoenix Lord retaining the memories/skills of their predecessor - it justifies why a skilled Striking Scorpion was needed, they don't want to risk "diluting" Karandas with unrelated experiences. Plus, it feels like PotW worded it as it did to emphasize the sheer finality of the sacrifice, rather than to communicate something about the fluff.

I mean, if the Eldar donning the armor is doing nothing but acting as a spiritual jump-start for the Phoenix Lord, then why not have a less important/skilled Eldar don the armor? I'm sure a a lesser ranking Scorpion would be down with that, or a despondent Outcast.

Also, if an Exarch's group-mind is imprinted in their armor, but the Exarch's soul is absorbed into the Phoenix Lord, does the armor retain an imprint? Or is it rendered "blank"?

[Archon Charybdis]

it justifies why a skilled Striking Scorpion was needed

There's nothing about PotW that suggests a skilled warrior is needed. The only thing we see is Morlaniath is the closest one and is thus absorbed, there's no indication only an exarch would have worked.


I mean, if the Eldar donning the armor...

This is an important point, there is no donning the armor; the armor does not contain a person. Morlaniath looks into the rend in Karandras' armor, goes "my god it's full of stars", and is absorbed into Karandras. We see that of all the souls ever absorbed by Karandras are still present, but with the very specific statement "Here they would end, truly and forever. Only Karandras lived on. Briefly, Korlandril lived again, and then was gone."

And upon Karandras reviving we're told "He felt nothing of the eldar that (Morlaniath) had been.There were no memories, save his own. There was no spirit, save the one he had been born with."


Also, if an Exarch's group-mind is imprinted in their armor, but the Exarch's soul is absorbed into the Phoenix Lord, does the armor retain an imprint? Or is it rendered "blank"?

The soul stones of the individuals who became/joined with the exarch are attached to the exarch's armor. PotW desribes them all unwinding from each other and being absorbed into Karandras as individuals, ostensibly with no souls stones this would leave the exarch armor inert.

[DrLove42]

Maybe its like the Avatar....the avatar is "fuelled" by the soul of an individual, but you couldn't argue that he is the "sacrifice" and is instead the Avatar...he is fuelled by an individual, but is himself

[Archon Charybdis]

Maybe its like the Avatar....the avatar is "fuelled" by the soul of an individual, but you couldn't argue that he is the "sacrifice" and is instead the Avatar...he is fuelled by an individual, but is himself

That's very much the impression given in PotW, Karandras absorbs Morlaniath and his armor reknits "the wound that allowed his energy to escape." It contradicts the older fluff Eldargal also presented, but I'd generally assume new supercedes old. Personally I prefer the idea that Phoenix Lords are more than just really old, powerful exarchs.

[bfmusashi]

I like the second one as it presents a more unified sense of self. It's not that those memories didn't belong to a previous host at some point, but they belong to Karandras now. The first description makes it sound like there could be resistance against the Karandras psyche, leading to doubt and hesitation (even if it's something petty like how to swing the chainsword properly.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

This is an important point, there is no donning the armor; the armor does not contain a person. Morlaniath looks into the rend in Karandras' armor, goes "my god it's full of stars", and is absorbed into Karandras. We see that of all the souls ever absorbed by Karandras are still present, but with the very specific statement "Here they would end, truly and forever. Only Karandras lived on. Briefly, Korlandril lived again, and then was gone."Huh, always thought that the successor had to literally put on the Lord's armor - thanks for clearing that up.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think it was originally putting on the suit - but then they made it much cooler. :)

[Archon Charybdis]

Huh, always thought that the successor had to literally put on the Lord's armor - thanks for clearing that up.

Well it very well could be they used to put the armor on. It's hard to tell from the quote Eldargal provided whether the exarch in question had put on the Karandras' armor, but new stuff definitely contradicts/retcons the old fluff regarding whether Phoenix Lords are a gestalt like exarchs. It wouldn't surprise me if this was a change too.

[bfmusashi]

Is it really a retcon though? It's a fairly ambiguous series of statements and could just be two ways of describing the same event. In one, Karandras accesses the memories of the new host but the host is presented as a seperate entity (possibly for clarity) and in the other the host is Karandras. It almost sounds like Karandras could be written into all the memories as the ego. He has wet himself at Eldar kindergarten many times.

[Chris*ta]

I always had it in my head that a Phoenix Lord was physically the body of the latest incarnation, but, mentally and spiritually, the psyche was entirely that of the original Phoenix Lord.

Something about the sucking the soul of some random in through the (fatal) hole in the armour doesn't sit right with me. The Eldar just aren't into randomly murdering each other for the lolz*.

* Yes, I know Dark Eldar, that cool converted Slaaneshi Eldar army you're thinking of doing, etc. I mean Craftworld Eldar.

And I know there is a sacrifice for the formation of the Avatar, but their the victim is entirely willing.

[Archon Charybdis]

Is it really a retcon though? It's a fairly ambiguous series of statements and could just be two ways of describing the same event. In one, Karandras accesses the memories of the new host but the host is presented as a seperate entity (possibly for clarity) and in the other the host is Karandras. It almost sounds like Karandras could be written into all the memories as the ego. He has wet himself at Eldar kindergarten many times.

You use the word host, but in PotW Morlaniath isn't host to anything. He is essentially energy and material to restore the damaged form of Karandras. The Phoenix Lord armor itself contains no physical body, but a microcosm of souls that have been absorbed by Karandras in the past, and that have achieved a sort of True Death apart from the Infinity Circuit or oblivion at the hands of Slaanesh. PotW is very clear that Karandras knows nothing about Morlaniath after reviving from his injury and he has no memories, no soul, but that of the original Karandras. It very clearly contradicts earlier fluff that seems to indicate both that a new "host" has to don the armor, and that that host's soul gets absorbed into a gestalt consciousness.


And I know there is a sacrifice for the formation of the Avatar, but their the victim is entirely willing.

I imagine if given a little more chance for explication, Gav Thorpe or any Eldar author would say the Eldar in question are willing, for all the same reasons the Young King is. It seems to be a fairly common characteristic for most Eldar to put the survival of their craftworld and species above their individual well-being, and sacrificing your life to allow a demigod to continue fighting is a pretty worthwhile goal. Further, PotW seems to imply the souls absorbed by Karandras achieve a kind of true afterlife they couldn't attain otherwise, so it's not as though there's no benefit to them.

[Zederith]

I kinda like the way Gav described it in Path of the Warrior.It makes them different than regular exarchs,ancient individuals instead of a collection of soulstones.Kinda sucks if you think about it to have your lifeforce absorbed to reincarnate one of these guys,but to eldar it seemed in the book that the peace of non-existence was a luxery that very few could experience.Better than torture forever w/Slaanesh or the semi-aware state in a stone or if you are lucky the Infinity Circuit and even then it seemed they could go crazy or if fortunes turned bad still end up eaten by Slaanesh.Depressing but the ones sacrificed to Khaine or give themselves to a Phoenix lord may be the lucky ones.Think it works well with the "eternal warrior"rule too.

[Anggul]

The two examples you cite here both say that they become just Karandras, the only difference is that in Path of the Warrior, he immediately loses his separate conscience, whereas in the other one he sort of 'floats' for a moment, then hears the voice and is lost.

They still both result in Karandras being the only thinking entity within. The only real difference I see in most of the Phoenix Lord appearances is that sometimes they have a body, but in Path, it's just spirit energy inhabiting the armour like a Thousand Son Rubric Marine.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I checked the 2nd ed codex. It says nothing more concrete than that another Eldar "assumes their costume and identity". So even if it is a change, I'm not sure it counts as a retcon - you have to have a solid continuity in order to retcon it, and I don't think it's ever really been outright stated how it works. Which is cool, they're Eldar. They don't exactly issue press releases about their stuff. :D

[Chris*ta]

I checked the 2nd ed codex. It says nothing more concrete than that another Eldar "assumes their costume and identity". So even if it is a change, I'm not sure it counts as a retcon - you have to have a solid continuity in order to retcon it, and I don't think it's ever really been outright stated how it works. Which is cool, they're Eldar. They don't exactly issue press releases about their stuff. :D

If it actually says "assume their costume" that's pretty unambiguous, I'd think.

That phrase is only commonly used -- and by commonly used, I mean in super hero fiction and surrounding commentary ;) -- to mean putting on someone else's clothes, with the purpose of pretending to be them (i.e. assume their identity). I don't think it can really be stretched to mean, have your soul sucked in to the nebulous semi-afterlife of the inside of an animate suit of armour.

I'm still a fan of the old fashioned putting on their armour, rather than the soul-eating thing, myself.


I kinda like the way Gav described it in Path of the Warrior.It makes them different than regular exarchs

I feel the big difference between a Phoenix Lord and an exarch is that the exarch is overcome with bloodthirst/joy of battle/rage in combat, and is primarily about their own, individual kick arse combat skills, whereas the Phoenix Lord, while they do have kick arse skills, is very much a highly intelligent/strategic warrior-commander.

Also, when the exarch takes off his helmet and armour, he is no longer the bloodthirsty warrior, though he does have an addiction to that feeling. Phoenix Lords, on the other hand, I imagine as not taking off their armour, and are the Phoenix Lord personality full-time/the previous identity associated with the body is destroyed or strongly subsumed.

Largely my opinion though/don't have sources to quote.

[CouchViking]

I tend to think it all comes down to if you accept PotW as official cannon or black library fiction. I myself am leaning toward the former and not ladder, because of how well fleshed out Korlandril's journey and the eldar psyche is portrayed. Thumb's up Gav ;) .

[da_WaaaghMaster]

Well the DE player in me loves the idea of the Phoenix Lords eating other Eldar to sustain/repair/rejuvenate themselves! You goody-two-shoes Craftworlders aren't so holier-than-thou now, are you?

In game though: Wouldn't it be cool if You could remove a warrior of a matching aspect to invigorate/heal a Phoenix Lord in some way?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

In game though: Wouldn't it be cool if You could remove a warrior of a matching aspect to invigorate/heal a Phoenix Lord in some way?Oooo, I like that. The same sort've rule that lets Trazyn replace any Necron Lord/Lychguard. "From the Ashes: If this model is destroyed or otherwise removed from play and an Aspect Warrior or Exarch of the same Aspect is within 6", that Aspect Warrior may be removed instead."

[CouchViking]

Shhhhh not so loudly Rev, GW might take your idea and give it to Matt Ward. Still not thourghly convinced he exist, I wonder if he might be PL himself feeding of the fluff of preivious editions.