Infantry model's facing, true line of sight and overwatch?

[StraightSilver]

Hi guys,

This might at first sound like a stupid question but please bear with me. :)

Up until now something that cropped up in my mind recently hasn't been an issue, and that's a model's facing in relation to true line of sight.

The reason it hasn't been an issue is that up until now infantry haven't been able to perform reactive actions in another player's turn. However this has changed with the new overwatch rule combined with true line of sight.

Page 8 of the rule book states that whilst checking line of sight you do so from a model's point of view but more importantly from the model's eyes.

Now I have always assumed that because infantry are on round bases that they have a 360 degree facing (or no facing at all) and this isn't an issue as you can turn to face in your movement phase for shooting.

The rules do allude to the fact that facing doesn't matter, however I cannot find a page reference that actually backs this up with hard rules.

So why is this an issue?

Well you see the overwatch rule states that before a unit charges the unit being charged gets to shoot, however this shooting attack is made using the rules for shooting which state a model's line of sight is checked from the model's eyes.

So what happens if I charge from behind?

In the assaulting player's turn the player being assaulted gets to shoot but it doesn't say anywhere he gets to turn and face, meaning that if he is charged from behind he doesn't have line of sight, and therefore can't overwatch.

Now I am sure that infantry can turn and face, and I'm sure I'm wrong on this but I can't find a reference in the rules that says they can, so does anybody have a definitive answer?

EDIT: Sorry guys, it appears I missed a paragraph on page 10 so this is now cleared up, could somebody please close this. :)

[Denzark]

And what does the para on P10 say pray tell?

[StraightSilver]

It contradicts the rules for true line of sight by saying models have a 360 degree line of sight so don't have to worry about facing........

[MaltonNecromancer]

It contradicts the rules for true line of sight by saying models have a 360 degree line of sight

Not sure how it contradicts TLoS. Infantry have 360 degree "facings" to represent the fact they're looking around all the time (or have auto-sense, or psyniscience or whatever) - it's a degree of abstraction, kind of like how assault grenades don't inflict damage in assaults, but instead affect initiatives.

[Wolfshade]

Either that or in the 41st millenium everyone has evolved owl necks...

[Mr.Pickelz]

I agree with the Owl-neck theory. the facing isn't an issue because people will customize models in poses that aren't fully appropriate in every situation. Even GW casts their mini's in poses that aren't even balanced on the base, and requires some sort of modification from the person buying that model. The Space Wolf Wolf Guard with Twin Lighting Claws, the charging Commissar, etc... If facing became an issue then that would limit and demote a lot of conversions and modeling opportunities.

[StraightSilver]

It makes sense that infantry have a 360 degree line of sight, which is why they are on round bases as that is what round bases are supposed to represent in wargaming.

However my issue was that in both the line of sight and the shooting section of the rulebook it specifically states that you must use the model's eyes to determine line of sight, which then contradicts this as surely then line of sight could be determined from any point on the model's head?

As I say it isn't an issue in the controlling player's turn as he can move them to face the direction he wants to shoot in, it only becomes an issue when reacting to another player's actions.

It seems odd that suddenly models can sprout eyes in the back of their head, or turn in another player's turn to effect overwatch, but unfortunately that's how the rules define it.

I just thought it would be an effective way for Wyches to get around being lown to pieces before they can assault.

Back the the double tap charges for me then. :(

[Jwolf]

Go play paintball or laser tag. You'll be surprised with how close to 360 degrees your field of vision gets to be very quickly - and the people playing the game with you aren't actually trying to kill you.

[Wolfshade]

I suppose the thought of it is that because they fight in loose formations in a way that say a phlanx doesn't. Upon hearing a noise they turn to face the charge giving snap shots.

[DarkLink]

However my issue was that in both the line of sight and the shooting section of the rulebook it specifically states that you must use the model's eyes to determine line of sight, which then contradicts this as surely then line of sight could be determined from any point on the model's head?


The Broodlord couldn't ever see anything at all except fliers, then.

You're overthinking this. Models can look over their shoulder. They can see 360 degrees. That's it. It's really that simple.

[addamsfamily36]

The Broodlord couldn't ever see anything at all except fliers, then.

You're overthinking this. Models can look over their shoulder. They can see 360 degrees. That's it. It's really that simple.

AHAHAHA:D

Broodlord : "hey guys.....guys.....whats going on down there? should i be flailing? are there bad guys? anyone?......ok im gonna flail and do some ****.....................ah screams cool i killed someone..ooo look a flyer!"

[david5th]

I just have my 30 man IG squad facing backwards and imagine they're moonwalking towards the enemy.

[DarkLink]

I'll model my guys holding mirrors up, because even if they can't look over their shoulder they can still see stuff in the rear view mirror.

[Wolfshade]

This does raise a question with creature that don't see.
If models with eyes use them to locate the enemy, then we use line of sight from the model.
If the model uses smell, do we then have to sniff and use line of smell from the model?
Or, if the sense it do we have to get all yoda-y and stretch out with the force?

True line of smell: In the 41st millenium nurgle is always detected

[Xenith]

Hmm. What happens if you dont paint the eyes on the models? Grey plastic dudes have their eyes closed so can't see anything.

[Chris*ta]

Hmm. What happens if you dont paint the eyes on the models? Grey plastic dudes have their eyes closed so can't see anything.

"Well Farseer Ulyandras, I'm not sure how we did it exactly, but we managed to ambush those mon-keigh soldiers even though we approached them from the front"

"My child, I was watching the scene from afar, it turns out they were all blinking at exactly same time."

Title: Why Enforcing WYSIWIG Strictly at Tournaments will also Raise Painting Standards

[Kyban]

Better yet:

"I glued a demolisher cannon onto my rhino so it can now use one in game!"

[Chris*ta]

Better yet:

"I glued a demolisher cannon onto my rhino so it can now use one in game!"

I think we already have one of those. It's called a Vindicator ;)

[Kyban]

I think we already have one of those. It's called a Vindicator ;)

But now at a discounted price of 35 pts. :p
Just an example of how ridiculous it could get if you based everything on the how it was modeled.

[Chris*ta]

But now at a discounted price of 35 pts. :p
Just an example of how ridiculous it could get if you based everything on the how it was modeled.

Shouldn't you glue six demolisher cannons on the rhino? "It's the only way to be sure"

[Uncle Nutsy]

Go play paintball or laser tag. You'll be surprised with how close to 360 degrees your field of vision gets to be very quickly - and the people playing the game with you aren't actually trying to kill you.

I wish the guy who I shot in the keister with a paint round had 360 deg of vision... Wait no I don't, because it wouldn't have been nearly as awesome. :D

[Daemonette666]

It makes sense that infantry have a 360 degree line of sight, which is why they are on round bases as that is what round bases are supposed to represent in wargaming.

However my issue was that in both the line of sight and the shooting section of the rulebook it specifically states that you must use the model's eyes to determine line of sight, which then contradicts this as surely then line of sight could be determined from any point on the model's head?

As I say it isn't an issue in the controlling player's turn as he can move them to face the direction he wants to shoot in, it only becomes an issue when reacting to another player's actions.

It seems odd that suddenly models can sprout eyes in the back of their head, or turn in another player's turn to effect overwatch, but unfortunately that's how the rules define it.

I just thought it would be an effective way for Wyches to get around being lown to pieces before they can assault.

Back the the double tap charges for me then. :(
That rule refers to the level or height that the models eyes are at. Even though the model has a 360 degree field of vision, its head is not a giant balloon hovering 50 meters above his shoulders. It refers to getting your own head down to the model's height and looking from there to see if it can see past a wall, or if the land raider tank blocked that particular model from seeing the attacker before it started its charge. The attacker may be able to see other models in your unit, just not the melta gun, or flamer, etc.

The rest of the squad would warn the shooting model that the enemy were attacking. You have people tasked with being tale-end-charlie, or rear guard within a squad, so why wouldn't you be able to know they were coming?