MSS + Walkers

[Toaster36]

TL: DR: Can Mindshackle Scarabs be used on walkers?

Since walkers don't have a Ld value (unless used for other purposes like psychic tests) the BRB would imply that they auto fail the Ld test. Seeing how broken this could be I logically checked the FAQs that were just updated. They updated Time's Arrow so it can't be used on vehicles, but there's still nothing on MSS for vehicles even though it had a full paragraph re-wording. Now with the fluffy direction the edition has taken I could see how it would make sense that it would happen, you know, Necron's being masters of technology and what not. And then there's the fact that dreadnoughts and kans do have someone sitting inside with a mind to take over.

What do you guys/gals think? Are Necron Lords with MSS just walking automatic can openers?

[Learn2Eel]

Walkers and vehicles in general are typically counted as LD10 for anything like that, i.e. psychic pilot.

I don't know if MSS can actually affect walkers though.
Usually it will say if it can affect walkers, and that they must take the test counting as LD10.
If it doesn't say that, I'd be inclined to say no.

But, given who wrote the codex, it wouldn't surprise me if they are affected by them.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I always thought the rule was that vehicles without a Ld value automatically passed all Ld tests.

Honestly, I doubt very much that Mindshackle Scarabs will have any effect on vehicles - especially an automatic success.

[Jwolf]

TL: DR: Can Mindshackle Scarabs be used on walkers?

Since walkers don't have a Ld value (unless used for other purposes like psychic tests) the BRB would imply that they auto fail the Ld test. Seeing how broken this could be I logically checked the FAQs that were just updated. They updated Time's Arrow so it can't be used on vehicles, but there's still nothing on MSS for vehicles even though it had a full paragraph re-wording. Now with the fluffy direction the edition has taken I could see how it would make sense that it would happen, you know, Necron's being masters of technology and what not. And then there's the fact that dreadnoughts and kans do have someone sitting inside with a mind to take over.

What do you guys/gals think? Are Necron Lords with MSS just walking automatic can openers?

Not even a little. You have no permission to use MSS on the walkers, their is not LD test for them to take, and then they smush you.

[Tynskel]

I have a vision, appearing before me... is my...
Magical Crystal 8-Ball 40k Rulebook...
I can see something through the murkiness, the fog of the mind...

the vehicle rules have your answer...

[Archon Charybdis]

By this logic, Vehicles have no toughness, therefore any attack "wounds" them automatically. There's a difference between having a "0" or "-" value for a characteristic, and not simply having the characteristic in the first place.

[DarkLink]

Walkers and vehicles in general are typically counted as LD10 for anything like that, i.e. psychic pilot.

No.

If the vehicle has the Psychic Pilot rule, then, and only then, do they count as Ld10, and only for the purposes of taking Psychic tests. Otherwise, they do not have a leadership value to use. Just try and find a rule that says vehicles have a leadership.


I've yet to see anyone anywhere make an even remotely convincing argument that vehicles do have a set leadership value and are susceptible to leadership tests. Until someone can produce such an argument, vehicles are immune to Mind Shackle Scarabs, Dominate, and anything else that might call for a leadership test.



Edit:
JWolf's point on permission is the crux of this, and most other, rules arguments. You have to provide a solid argument that vehicles do hve a leadership value, and that if they do have leadership that they are susceptible to leadership tests, and that they are then vulnerable to MSS. There are no rules to support this claim, thus you cannot use MSS.

[Learn2Eel]

No.

If the vehicle has the Psychic Pilot rule, then, and only then, do they count as Ld10, and only for the purposes of taking Psychic tests. Otherwise, they do not have a leadership value to use. Just try and find a rule that says vehicles have a leadership.


I've yet to see anyone anywhere make an even remotely convincing argument that vehicles do have a set leadership value and are susceptible to leadership tests. Until someone can produce such an argument, vehicles are immune to Mind Shackle Scarabs, Dominate, and anything else that might call for a leadership test.



Edit:
JWolf's point on permission is the crux of this, and most other, rules arguments. You have to provide a solid argument that vehicles do hve a leadership value, and that if they do have leadership that they are susceptible to leadership tests, and that they are then vulnerable to MSS. There are no rules to support this claim, thus you cannot use MSS.

You missed my point entirely. I said that when they are affected, it is specified in the wargear/power/special rule's description, and they are counted as LD10. My first statement was an obvious generalisation; when I said "for anything like that" I didn't mean LD tests in general, I meant things that actually do affect them - which are extremely rare. I'm pretty sure there's another one that makes them take a LD test counting as LD10, don't quote me on that though. In any case, my point was that unless it specifies it can affect vehicles, and that they would count as LD10 for the test, it can't affect them. I didn't at all imply they actually count as being LD10 for general purposes, it is only for a very select few rules (like psychic pilot) that use that.
Hence why my original post specifies that MSS shouldn't affect vehicles. In essence, you are agreeing with my view, but disagreeing with my post :D

[DarkLink]

Ah, I see.

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry about that, it was my bad with the wording.

[PSiRoflcopter]

Not even a little. You have no permission to use MSS on the walkers, their is not LD test for them to take, and then they smush you.

This makes perfect sense logically, but is there actually a rule that states it? I'm in agreement but you know there's going to be someone out there squirming for a way to work around it. Is there anywhere that states that if a unit does not have a particular characteristic that it cannot take tests for it?

[Nachodragon]

Is there anywhere that states you can cause a test to something that does not have a characteristic?

[DarkLink]

This makes perfect sense logically, but is there actually a rule that states it? I'm in agreement but you know there's going to be someone out there squirming for a way to work around it. Is there anywhere that states that if a unit does not have a particular characteristic that it cannot take tests for it?

Nachodragon and Jwolf are correct, and you're looking at the argument backwards.

The rules give you permission to do stuff. If there is not a rule to give you permission to do something, you cannot do it.

There is not "but the rules don't say I can't". Anyone who uses that excuse is cheating. The only possible, viable, and legal justification for any action is "the rules say I can".

There are no rules that say you can use MSS or Dominate or whatever on vehicles. Therefore you can't. It doesn't matter that there isn't a rule that specifically says you can't. There is no rule that says you can, and therefore you can't. End of story.

[Toaster36]

I think the argument comes down to the first two lines for mindshackle scarabs:

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of mindshcakle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6...."

Since an enemy walker is by definition an enemy model it passes the criteria to be a random target as defined by that sentence.

That brings us to the part about taking the Ld check. Under the Vehicles, Leadership and Morale section on Pg. 76 the paragraph state that vehicles never take Morale checks for any reason and "any occasional lapses that do occur are represented by Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results on the Vehicle Damage table." As for Morale checks, the Morale Checks section on Pg. 29 declares that "Morale checks are a specific kind of Leadership test." Therefore, Morale does not equal Leadership and is not automatically passed based on that portion of the rule. The second part, however, is vague at best. A "lapse" would be a failure and that is handled by the Vehicle Damage table which only comes into play on a penetrating hit. That last part would lead me to believe that walkers would automatically pass if randomly chosen UNLESS that walker was stunned or shaken already in which case it has already failed once. I don't exactly know whether that stunned or shaken would carry over into an automatic fail or either it would be considered a completely separate occurrence in lapse of courage.

As for vehicles taking characteristic tests we refer to Pg. 7 under Automatic Pass and Fail. The line "if the model has a characteristic of 0 or '-' it automatically fails the test. One could argue that vehicles don't have the characteristic and therefore are not applicable to the rule OR that by not having a characteristic clearly defined are defaulted to having a 0 or - value. Either argument leading to an automatic pass or automatic fail respectively in this case.

I have not found, heard, or seen any ruling that would definitively state what exactly would happen should this rare scenario come up. I only present this argument in the first place because I want to be shown whether or not any Necron players can abuse this rule conundrum to invalidate walkers in assaults on the table.

[Nachodragon]

I would love to use a MSS on a Blood Talon Dread, would probably have one that game... but again, not having a characteristic and having 0 or - are two separate things. And no where does it state that if a model doesn't have a characteristic it is 0 or -, they just don't have it. Similar to the argument of vehicles not having wounds, if that equaled 0, well, the vehicle would be dead. So... that doesn't work.

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of mindshcakle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6...." Even with the walker being an enemy model, you can't force a characteristic test on something that doesn't have that characteristic.

The 'lapse' you are talking about is fluff talk. It is not rules affecting.

[PSiRoflcopter]

I would love to use a MSS on a Blood Talon Dread, would probably have one that game... but again, not having a characteristic and having 0 or - are two separate things. And no where does it state that if a model doesn't have a characteristic it is 0 or -, they just don't have it. Similar to the argument of vehicles not having wounds, if that equaled 0, well, the vehicle would be dead. So... that doesn't work.

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of mindshcakle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6...." Even with the walker being an enemy model, you can't force a characteristic test on something that doesn't have that characteristic.

The 'lapse' you are talking about is fluff talk. It is not rules affecting.

This leads to an interesting question: If a unit with MSS is in base contact with a walker and, say, a single marine, does it still randomly select the model, and if so what happens if it selects the Walker? If it can't make a test is that considered an auto pass or does it have to reroll the random roll to see who is affected?"

[DarkLink]

Toaster36, your argument is still flawed. There are gaps in it, and you literally have to make up rules to bring your argument to its conclusion. You are trying to jump through loopholes to try and make something work without any justification from the actual rules, and as several of us have mentioned, that does not work as an argument.

Is there a rule clearly stating that walkers have a leadership value, or that they are susceptible to leadership tests even though they do not have a leadership? No. There isn't. Neither do any of the examples you have mentioned have any direct relevance.

Unless you can provide that non-existent justification, your argument does not work.

[DarkLink]

This leads to an interesting question: If a unit with MSS is in base contact with a walker and, say, a single marine, does it still randomly select the model, and if so what happens if it selects the Walker? If it can't make a test is that considered an auto pass or does it have to reroll the random roll to see who is affected?"

Well, technically the only qualifiers for who gets hit are 'a random model'. There's nothing to say that you can't select a model that can't be affected by MSS. So if you 'randomly' end up selection the walker, and you can't hurt the walker, the MSS go to waste.