Arhurt's fix to the necrons (yeah I know, another one...)

[Arhurt]

I just have some thoughs about making Necrons compatible with 5th and the current meta and would like to share them. I'll try to be as cohesive as possible and not create a wall of text so you can actually read everything and comment as you please. Many of these are gathered and combined from other people's ideas mixed with my own.

Now, as much as I would love a whole nex codex with new miniatures and all, my first priority is to be able to compete with a little more variation to the list and not have to play high-risk lists. With this in mind I devised a group of rules that could fit in a PDF or White Dwarf article.

Here are my proposed changes: Codex Necron by Arhurt (http://warhoud.ueuo.com/Arhurt/Necron_Codex_byArhurt.pdf)

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Summary:
The main changes are the way WBB works and the improvement on the Gauss rules. With it, necrons are no longer required to keep close formations and do not have to fear having all their units wiped and denied of WBB. The new Gauss rules make Necron weapons very powerful against any kind of target. Veil of Darkness lords teleporting a unit of warriors near the enemy to rapid fire are a serious threat.
The changes to the Necron Lord's wargear also allows for some interesting tactics, such as Fleeting Wraiths or Scarab Swarms. The Disruption Field of the Lord could result in giant units of tank hunting scarabs.

[Aldramelech]

Thought they could fix themselves? :rolleyes:

[Arhurt]

Thought they could fix themselves? :rolleyes:

I lol'd

But with the current codex, not even their advanced technology can keep them viable without high risk (low PO number) builds.

[Arhurt]

Quick tweak to the Phase Out rules limiting the options where the necrons can enter play from:

Phase Out: When necron units fail a leadership test, they do not retreat or despair. They simply Phase Out and dissapear in thin air to return to the fight later. Any models that Phase Out are placed in reserve and must return to the game in the begining of the Necron Player's movement phase. They can either re-enter play emerging from a Monolith's portal or Deep Strike in. When Deep-striking after phasing out the models must deep strike in their deployment zone and at least 12'' away from any enemy models. They are considered to have regrouped. Enemies that where in CC with Necrons that phase out may consolidate.
When a Necron force falls under 25% of the number of original Necron models, the entire force Phases Out and the necrons leave the battle entirely. Phase Out occurs at the beggining of the Necron Player's movement phase.

[ssylyss]

Very interesting rules set. I like the phase out when failing leadership idea. Love the idea of wraiths unit size 3-6. wraiths are really cool, I just hate the current limitation on unit size.

Necrons are one of my favorite armies, and I cant wait for a new codex. Hopefully with interesting changes like you've shown here.

[Old_Paladin]

I dislike the overlap of rules with your gauss weapons. (ie. that 6's both always wound/glace and 6's always get AP1).

It means that against very high end targets ('Nid Zilla, Land Raiders, etc.), it's statistically better to go after them with the weakest weapons possible. As the bonuses overlap.
For example: Against a Fex with Toughness 6 and a 2+save; strength 4 rifles will cause an unsaveable wound on a 6, but a higher strenth weapon is more likely to cause a wound that allows a save (which will stop 5/6 wounds).
Another Example: the str:4 rifle will glace a Landraider on a 6 an roll on the chart with a -1 (because it's AP1). A str:9 AP:2 heavy-cannon [more then double the rifle strength] will do about the same (as rolling the 5 and getting -2 for the chart isn't going to do much).


This rule means that the only thing you should take are Warriors, everything else is a waste of points. No one would take heavy destroyers, I could take 4 extra warriors for that cost (adding much needed bodies, and would be even better at killing AV:14 targets).
It might be a bit more balanced if the rule included a note that you do not get the AP:1 if a 6 is already needed to wound/pen (you need the required rolls to be a 5+ or better).

Also, the combination of individual unit phase-out and 'perfect' deep-strike. Where would pinning fall under this rule? Do they disappear (meaning I cannot attack them further) and then get to pop back on your turn and rapid-fire the crap out of me?

If you want wraiths to only have one power-weapon attack, you should change the stat-line to A:2(+1*). As the rules for special weapons mean that they apply to all attacks, and would get them 3 power-weapon attacks [which I don't believe was your intent].

[Arhurt]

It might be a bit more balanced if the rule included a note that you do not get the AP:1 if a 6 is already needed to wound/pen (you need the required rolls to be a 5+ or better).

You are absolutely right.

How about this:
Gauss Weapons
Gauss weapons are terrifying devices that tear their targets layer by layer as they reduce it to it’s component atoms in a matter of seconds.
In the circumstance that a Gauss weapon cannot normally wound a target due to it having a high Toughness value or that it would normally not be able to penetrate or glance a vehicle due to a high armor value a roll of 6 to wound or penetrate will still cause a wound or glance the vehicle. Aditionally, these hits will be considered to be AP 1.
This means that Gauss weapons have the potential to wound and damage any creature or vehicle in the game.

With this I would bring back the cost for warriors and Immortals to 18 and 28 though, since a volley of rapid firing gauss flayers against T4 targets would not be as deadly as before.

[Katie Drake]

Or they could just be Rending.

Also, question - C'tan don't need Eternal Warrior to be immune to sniper/poisoned weapons. Eternal Warrior makes the model immune to Instant Death. If you want the C'tan to not suck so hard against weapons that wound on a fixed die roll, increase their Invulnerable save to 3+. Instead of Eternal Warrior, maybe just rule that a C'tan can never take more than a single Wound per shot/attack. Or maybe that's too complex, I dunno.

[Arhurt]

Well, take a look and tell me what you guys think: Codex Necron by Arhurt (http://warhoud.ueuo.com/Arhurt/Necron_Codex_byArhurt.pdf)

[Lord Anubis]

I think it'd be much easier to just say against vehicles, the hit counts as AP1. This eliminates the monstrous creature example Old Paladin used above.

Against vehicles, it would make the weaker gauss weapons very effective in large numbers--which is precisely what they used to be. The example above shows a true glance, which is not as powerful as a "gauss glance," yes. The same would hold true for regular Destroyers shooting at an Ork Trukk. However, it ignores how much more lethal these weapons are when they score a pen. A squad of Heavy Destroyer is a very viable choice when each one has the potential to annhilate a target vehicle with one shot.

The multiple phase outs bother me as well. Partly because it's kind of a split rule now. Sometimes they phase out and come back, sometimes they phase out (at 25%) and don't come back. It also strikes me that this makes the Necrons nigh-impossible to beat. I can just keep "hiding" them with phase out so you (my opponent) can't make them... errr, phase out.

Also not too sure about the Reconstruction rule for Tomb Spiders. It's cool, but it also leads into the "nigh-impossible to beat" area. A 3+ WBB roll is very scary, especially if you've got an Orb nearby. I know you say this makes them higher priority targets, but that means I have to be able to hit them. With true line of sight and Cheesy McBeard using his extra-short flying stands, those Tomb Spiders just vanish into a crowd of warriors and immortals... all of whom are getting back up to block line of sight again on a 3 or better... :(

Still, some very neat ideas here... :)

[Dan-e]

I like what you have but i want to add my 2 cents into what i would want out of a necron codex.

First... Warriors... necrons are always talked about as having legions of warriors. I would accept a drop in stats for Necron warriors to be more in line with eldar in the 3 Str, WS, BS but keep a higher Toughness at a reduced cost in points. while keeping the defensive power house of WBB to fall back on... the concept that the lords are better because they are preserved better should really so case in the stats of the neglected warrior who's systems aren't so well kept. The game for necrons shouldn't to minimize cost of warriors/phase out... this gets players to use smallest squads and generally low number of squads... which feels to go against the flavor of their background. Should a full squad of Troops with no wargear or special weapons really cost over 100 points more then a landraider?

Second... Pariahs. Since these guys are made out to be so limited in numbers and how they are so loved for their anti-pysker abilities... i would really like to see them taken out of the FO and used as a Necron Lords Body Guards... limit them to one unit per lord but give them abilities that will let them live longer to be useful...

[Melissia]

I certainly agree with Dan-e on there. Something like:

WS3 BS3 S3 T5 WN1 I2 A1 LD10 3+


for 14 points each. Keep in mind that the common Battle Sister is 11 points each, would really suck if the Warriors were a similar price, except better in every way.

[Chumbalaya]

Thanks for taking the time to write it up, here's my thoughts:

Gauss: Looks ok, not overpowering but gives Necrons a chance against vehicles.

WBB: Way too complicated. Just make it FNP, saves so much time.

Phase Out: Phasing Out sucks for Necrons, I'd just get rid of it. I do like the idea of teleporting instead of getting swept.

Teleportation: Unnecessary. The entire army teleports, and if they aren't getting destroyed by sweeping advances, there has to be some risk.

Wargear: Gone the way of the do-do, make them options for the Lord.

Lord: The different types of Lords are interesting, I'd like to see Wraith bodies and maybe even Spyder bodies.

Pariahs: Making them useful, always handy. Allowing them to cancel psychic powers would be nice.

Immortals: S5 seems unnecessary. 25 points apiece.

Flayed Ones: I like poisoned weapons, give them fleet.

Warriors: WS2 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv4+ 15 points or something, or give them Relentless. Makes them actually useful, quite resilient, but not OP.

Wraiths: Barbed tail is complicated, rending would suffice. I'd prefer them to be pretty fragile with T4, but 3++/FNP should keep them around.

Destroyers: Sure

Scarabs: Not every swarm base needs eternal warrior, make disruption fields equivalent to gauss in combat.

Spyders: I like this idea. Boosting FNP to a 3+ for all units with 6" would be great, but they're still pretty fragile. Don't think they should be able to join units though.

Heavy Destroyers: Good, maybe AP1.

Mono: Particle Whip = S10.

Obelisk: Give them a flux arc, BS3, and make them into a dedicated transport equivalent. They DS like Pods, are immobile, and count as a teleport homer. Units teleporting may pop into the Obelisk's range instead of your deployment zone. More vehicles is always a good idea.

Hope that helps.

[sangrail777]

First of all kudos on a kool codex.

Did ya notice under the Heavy Destroyer list you for squad size you call them tomb spiders.
I also figure that a 36 inch range for the Particle whip is better then a 24" with no extra cost. (just my opinion)

I really like the wraithlord.

[Gir]

I'd just make all gauss weapons Rending and exchange We'll be back for Feel No Pain. Makes life so much simpler.

Edit:

You should also make the C'tan Eternal warriors. Nothing quiet as depressing as having your awesome C'tan destroyed by a Slaanesh Daemon Weapon of a force weapon.

[Arhurt]

Thanks a lot guys! I'm glad you liked it.

Here is the new version, and changelog.

Necron Codex by Arhurt v0102 (http://warhoud.ueuo.com/Arhurt/Necron_Codex_byArhurt_v0102.pdf)

- Addressed Phase Out units not having valid locations to enter the battlefield.
- Removed the Necron Teleportation rule.
- Changed the way Gauss works. Now they are Rending against infantry and Glance with AP1 against vehicles.
- Decreased Immortal S to 4, decreased cost to 25.
- Decreased FO cost to 15.
- Decreased Necron Warrior WS to 2, decreased cost to 15.
- Clarified Wraith barbed tail attacks.
- Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers have T 5, reduced Heavy Destroyer cost to 75.
- Scarab Swarms lose the Eternal Warrior rule.
- Tomb Spiders reconstruction only boosts Scarabs. Tomb Spiders only boost WBB of units it has joined and may no longer create Scarabs when joined to a unit.
- Corrected a lot of spelling errors.
- Removed the Heavy Gauss Cannon from The Forgotten.

I hope that with these tweaks everything is more balanced and streamlined.

About Gauss rules
I still don't want to simply give Gauss rending because then the chance of Necron Warriors Glancing AV 14 are greatly diminished. Thus I have given rending against Toughness targets and a special rile against Armor.

About WBB vs FNP
I agree that FNP is a lot easier to understand and implement, but IMHO the act of leaving the warriors laying on their back so that at the start of your turn you have to literally bring them back from the dead is just too cool and fluffy to ditch. My writing of the WBB rules is quite simple to execute really, here are a few good examples (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3994492&postcount=10) that I wrote when asked about situations that would break under the oficial WBB rules.

Edit: just imagine...

Platinum Lord (Warscythe, Destroyer Body, Chronometron, Gaze of Flame, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Resurrection Orb) = 310pts he costs more than a Deceiver!
WS 5 / BS 5 / S 6 / T 6 / W 3 / I 4 / A 3 / Ld 10 / Sv 2+ (4+ inv.)
Moves as a Jetbike, has "Fleet", Ignores all saves, May come back with up to 3 wounds, Reduces your LD, has a RO.
Add a unit of Wraith and you have a fearsome (and expensive, 430pts) Close Combat setup to support your warriors.

[Chumbalaya]

You can still lay your Warriors down before rolling FNP :P

I quite like the idea of rending gauss. They can't hurt AV14, but they really shouldn't and it gives you incentive to field Destroyers and Heavy Ds. Making them Relentless would be fun too. Immortals have higher T, S, range and move faster, so it would be a good upgrade. Also, giving them a "downside" like that will justify lowering their cost, so would 4+ armor. Warriors should be numerous, so making them cheap and effective is a great way of accomplishing it.

Still not keen on Spyders joining units, MCs+infantry leads to weird problems.

Also, jetbikes don't have fleet IIRC ;)

[Arhurt]

You can still lay your Warriors down before rolling FNP :P
Not the same thing :D


Still not keen on Spyders joining units, MCs+infantry leads to weird problems.
Could you give an example? I really want to know so I decide to either drop the concept or try to patch things up.


Also, jetbikes don't have fleet IIRC ;)
It's not fleet, it's "fleet", as in the ability given by the Chronometron to move extra inches on the movement phase.

[Arhurt]

Here is the latest version: Necron Codex by Arhurt v0200 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/20445904/Necron-Codex-ByArhurt-v0200) (PDF - 3Mb)

Changes include:
- Added pictures of my Necron models!
- Added Apocalypse Datasheets at the end. They are not the focus of the project so may be way imbalanced.
- Adressed Necron and Immortal costs due to the change on Gauss rule against infantry. They cost 20 and 30 points now.

I think that all that is needed now is some playtesting to get the points cost truly balanced.

[DarkLink]

How would you do cover saves for a mixed infantry/MC unit? That's one problem that pops into my mind right away.

While you may miss laying your models down, FNP is a far more balanced game mechanic than WBB, not to mention being much simpler. You can overcome FNP with weight of fire. But with WBB, you can't. You can never force more than one WBB save per turn. And if you're going to increase the number of warriors by dropping their price, it will be impossible to kill Necrons. And that's even before Ressurection Orbs start running around. WBB needs to be replaced with FNP.

[Arhurt]

I don't see a problem with Cover saves, at least not rules-wise. If you can see more than 50% of the unit it does not have cover, if not, it has cover. It's no more an abstraction than the current wound allocation rules. If you see one guy, you can kill all (Oh no! jack has been shot! *runs out of cover* Oh no! John has been shot! *runs out of cover* Oh no...)

I'll agree with you that WBB can be stronger than FNP in some circumstances. To counter that my current implementation has seen the warriors increase in cost to 20, of course that only playtest can reveal if that's the right price, but here is a sample list I created using the current rules for 1000pts:

Bronze Necron Lord (VoD)
8 necron Warriors
8 necron Warriors
5 Immortals
Monolith
Tomb Spider

That's only 22 Necrons, phase out with 6 necrons or less having to kill only 16 of them.

[Chumbalaya]

Not the same thing :D

Sure it is, if you fail your save, you normally have a chance to negate it on a 4+. WBB adds a whole new step, FNP is easier.


Could you give an example? I really want to know so I decide to either drop the concept or try to patch things up.

Well, MCs need to have 50% of their body obscured for cover (like vehicles), while infantry only need half the models in the unit, so it would lead to problems where the Spyder is in the open (or in cover) while the Warriors are not. The only other unit that does it are Tyrants and Tyrant Guard, and they just make the Tyrant count as infantry for purposes of cover. Just a potentially clunky mechanic.


It's not fleet, it's "fleet", as in the ability given by the Chronometron to move extra inches on the movement phase.

So it's not running then assaulting, it's just added movement? Eh, I'd just prefer fleet or some bonus in assault (enemies halve their initiative, always count as in difficult ground when assaulting).

I'll go over the PDF later and see if there's anything else I can offer.

[Melissia]

Warriors: WS2 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv4+ 15 points or something, or give them Relentless. Makes them actually useful, quite resilient, but not OP.

IMO that's WAY too damn powerful for the price with all the other rules attatched to it too. I use Sisters as a base for judgement mind you, and perhaps they're a bit overpriced, but for four more points that's a lot of stat increases.

[Arhurt]

Sure it is, if you fail your save, you normally have a chance to negate it on a 4+. WBB adds a whole new step, FNP is easier.
You flip a coin, you have a chance to win or lose. 40K adds a whole new step, flipping coins is easier :P



Well, MCs need to have 50% of their body obscured for cover (like vehicles), while infantry only need half the models in the unit, so it would lead to problems where the Spyder is in the open (or in cover) while the Warriors are not. The only other unit that does it are Tyrants and Tyrant Guard, and they just make the Tyrant count as infantry for purposes of cover. Just a potentially clunky mechanic.
I see what you mean. I'll tinker with something for this.



So it's not running then assaulting, it's just added movement? Eh, I'd just prefer fleet or some bonus in assault (enemies halve their initiative, always count as in difficult ground when assaulting).
The extra movement on the Chronometron is aimed at two things:

Get Wraiths and Destroyer Lords even faster in CC
Get pariahs faster in CC

Wraiths can't run, so fleet won't work. A Bonus in assault that messes with Initiative is redundant to wraiths (I6). I think the extra movement works quite well, and even allows the Pariahs to shoot. The Chronometron doesn't make them run, it makes the world around them go slower, thus giving them more time to walk.


I'll go over the PDF later and see if there's anything else I can offer.
Thanks, I look forward to hearing from you.

@ Melissia: Yeah I agree. Warriors are quite deadly with rending and very hard to kill with the new WBB rules, thus I've increased their cost to 20 points.

People like to think of Necrons as a Horde army because of the fluff, you can stiull make a Necron Horde.... at 5K apocalypse games.

[Chumbalaya]

You're probably right about Warriors, thinking it over again 15 is undercosted. I'd prefer them too cheap rather than too expensive though, since it encourages players to actually field Warriors (shock horror, I know).

If you compare to normal marines or Grey Hunters, Necrons lose out on free heavy/special weapons, or any at all, don't have ATSKNF, grenades, combat tactics/counter-attack, have no combat ability, move slower, have no transports, and have reduced save, WS and I. It isn't so bad all things considered. Dropping to T4 might make the 15 points more reasonable.

Re: FNP vs. WBB, having USRs and removing unnecessary steps lets the game go quicker and more smoothly. One of the biggest problems Necrons have always had is confusion over just how their rules work, so making it easier for everyone to understand without influencing how they operate significantly is always a good idea to me.

Re: Chronometron, moving as jetbikes isn't fast enough? Letting Pariahs teleport then assault would help them get popular quickly ;) Fleet would be nice too, though I'm unsure how to swing that one. I'd like it more as a defensive upgrade to protect your Warriors, since the bad guys will be coming to you anyway. Rending and larger unit sizes is buff enough for Wraiths, think of the Warriors and Pariahs, we've got new plastics for GW to sell :P