Throne of Skulls - reflections on 6th from GW's Flagship Tournament

[Denzark]

I have just got back from Nottingham where my CSM got a good beasting. Herewith some reflections on 6th and the tournament. Isotope99 was there, his counts as necrons were as good in the flesh as they are in the modelling thread. The winner was Orks - a 3 wagon grotsnik list (that actually beat me - suppose losing to the tournament winner ain't a bad thing.)

Without further ado my thoughts in no particular order - YMMV.

1. The tourny 'horror' army was Necrons with 3 flying Dralthi-alikes and other stuff.

2. Conclusion from me and my drinking buddies is that Necrons is the new GK - at least at 1500. everyone knows how to deal with draigo nonsense but not necessary undying metal cheddar. It is the easiest army bar none to be able to pick up a cookie cutter net list and start winning - horrible combos.

3. Foot blob-hordes are a viable choice - especially for squatting on objectives. They are commmensurately more effective on snap firing at charges - a lethal dynamic.

4. One person took a Fortress of redemption with his guard - but he afterwards stated he couldn't afford to man it well enough at 1500.

5. Not much fortifications at this time. However this may change because of...

6. 6th ed-ready armies with flyers have a distinct advantage.

7. Space wolves not so much in preponderence from last year - also Blood Angels not so much. I now wonder though, with shooting now the thing, whether or not an all-jump army could give a viable alpha strike.

8. Not much ally cheese yet. However it has started - Necrons and Nob Bikers (FFS) and Sisters with a deep striking blood angels land raider.

9. List of necron things that annoy:

a. Mind shackle nonsense in my DPs head, making him do smash attacks on himself.

b. resurrection orbs, 4+ WBB (or whatever it is called) no matter what the weapon was that killed them - at the end of every sub phase...

c. Tesla. 'Nuff said.

d. Imotekh the stormjobby getting infinite night fight and lightning attacks.

10. MEQ seems to be waning.

11. Gunline type scenarios are back.

12. Many games were won on the back of the secondary objectives - particularly first blood.



As I said, just my skewed rundown on the 'meta' of the last 2 days.

[Mr Mystery]

I have just got back from Nottingham where my CSM got a good beasting. Herewith some reflections on 6th and the tournament. Isotope99 was there, his counts as necrons were as good in the flesh as they are in the modelling thread. The winner was Orks - a 3 wagon grotsnik list (that actually beat me - suppose losing to the tournament winner ain't a bad thing.)

Without further ado my thoughts in no particular order - YMMV.

1. The tourny 'horror' army was Necrons with 3 flying Dralthi-alikes and other stuff.

2. Conclusion from me and my drinking buddies is that Necrons is the new GK - at least at 1500. everyone knows how to deal with draigo nonsense but not necessary undying metal cheddar. It is the easiest army bar none to be able to pick up a cookie cutter net list and start winning - horrible combos.

3. Foot blob-hordes are a viable choice - especially for squatting on objectives. They are commmensurately more effective on snap firing at charges - a lethal dynamic.

4. One person took a Fortress of redemption with his guard - but he afterwards stated he couldn't afford to man it well enough at 1500.

5. Not much fortifications at this time. However this may change because of...

6. 6th ed-ready armies with flyers have a distinct advantage.

7. Space wolves not so much in preponderence from last year - also Blood Angels not so much. I now wonder though, with shooting now the thing, whether or not an all-jump army could give a viable alpha strike.

8. Not much ally cheese yet. However it has started - Necrons and Nob Bikers (FFS) and Sisters with a deep striking blood angels land raider.

9. List of necron things that annoy:

a. Mind shackle nonsense in my DPs head, making him do smash attacks on himself.

b. resurrection orbs, 4+ WBB (or whatever it is called) no matter what the weapon was that killed them - at the end of every sub phase...

c. Tesla. 'Nuff said.

d. Imotekh the stormjobby getting infinite night fight and lightning attacks.

10. MEQ seems to be waning.

11. Gunline type scenarios are back.

12. Many games were won on the back of the secondary objectives - particularly first blood.



As I said, just my skewed rundown on the 'meta' of the last 2 days.

Interesting point about the 'secondary' objectives. I do agree that First Blood is definitely something an army can be geared towards bagging. But misnomer aside, I find them hugely enjoyable as they hark back to Epic (where Objectives gave VPs as well as dead units, and there was a target to acheive victory).

For those of us not hip with the cats on the street, and thus unable to rap with da words and that.....Dralthi-alikes? Huh?

[Denzark]

Yeah sorry. The necron flyer looks to me like the Kilrathi Dralthi fighter from the Wing Commander series...

http://wcpedia.com/dw/lib/exe/fetch.php/img/ship/kilrathi/fighter/dralthi/wc1/ref/dralthi_001.jpg?id=wc_info%3Aship_classes%3Akilrat hi%3Afighter%3Adralthi

[Mr Mystery]

Ahh! Gotcha!

Yeah, in 2,000 points I'm guilty of fielding that!

Though I'd like to say my money is on a wave of anti-aircraft stuff once everyone's been dished out fliers (so what, next 12 months or so if the rumours pan out?) which will rein in some of the greater excesses of flier spam.

The rest of it is interesting reading. I'm not much of an event gamer myself, I tend to play once a week in my local store, booking a table but not an opponent (I find it's an excellent way to meet my local community, plus it gives newcomers a chance at a game!). So to see an honest opinion list without hyperbole or too much personal bias is always welcome.

Also interesting to see that Allies aren't being the nightmare many feared. Sure it's still early for people to ramp up specific combos, but the relative lack already does suggest it's mostly just paranoia.

On the subject of Necron stuff, I'm not at all sure I can make someone Smash, as it's D3 hits, rather than attacks using your best weapon. Smash isn't so much a weapon, as a trade off. Though I too today made use of them, ending up with a Sanguinary Priest chainswording his own legs off (told you Blood Angels were Emomarines :p ). Tesla is more fun than proper filth, it's lack of AP and struggling against higher armours I find keeps it just about right (and believe me I spam it!) Imotekh? Haven't use him yet, though I do have the model.

[DarkLink]

Mindshackle Scarabs let you use any of the models weapons or abilities. Mephiston can force weapon himself, MCs can smash themselves, etc. They're as broken as psykotroke/rad grenades ever were, and it's even worse with challenges now.

And, predictably, flyers are stupid too. Dunno what GW was thinking. 6th ed is not going to be a very balanced game, and thats a very bad thing.

Allies aren't that scary, though. You can make a lot of tough stuff with them, but frankly nothing more broken than anything else you already might have to face. Allies don't break the game, but they add so much variety and so many options that you'll see fewer cut and paste netlists. That's a good thing.

[Denzark]

The tesla twin-linked, extra dice on a 6 thing caught me cold. I was trying to be chilled out and I was also proper hungover so when I failed the shackle Ld test and he said he wanted the Prince to smash itself I didn't argue!

[DarkLink]

Mindshackle scarabs are broken good combined with challenges. It's absurd. Luckily you can refuse challenges, but you're still a little screwed when that happens. Because being screwed by a bad rule and poorly balanced rules is so much fun. At least with Rad/Psykotroke grenades, it actually didn't matter too much because 10 Paladins are probably already going to kill anything and everything, grenades or no. This is why it's important now to deck out characters for challenges, and to know when to refuse a challenge.

[Mr Mystery]

Mindshackle scarabs are broken good combined with challenges. It's absurd. Luckily you can refuse challenges, but you're still a little screwed when that happens. Because being screwed by a bad rule and poorly balanced rules is so much fun. At least with Rad/Psykotroke grenades, it actually didn't matter too much because 10 Paladins are probably already going to kill anything and everything, grenades or no. This is why it's important now to deck out characters for challenges, and to know when to refuse a challenge.

Or indeed, knowing who to accept the challenge with. If there's mindshackles knocking about, accept with the unit champion (assuming naturally you have one) Sure he might slot himself, but the rest of the Necron unit (Lychguard aside) aren't going to be achieving a great deal, and your Indy Character can then wail on them, quite likely winning the combat, leaving an excellent chance of running down those sluggish Necrons.

Not sure why I just said all that. Just made my life as a Necron player a bit harder! :p

[Denzark]

Further thoughts not thunk before.

13. Most people very tolerant and patient with new ruleset problems - games taking longer. GW increased the 2hr15 games to 2hr30 at some point.

14. Several opponents in discussing terrain agreed to ignore mysterious stuff. As long as agreed mutually can't see any problem.

15. Terrain already on table, no problem. They said if we wanted to move it be adult. TOs take note.

16. Discussion on modelling of non-standard fortifications. Can't model for advantage, but as long as you don't put down a 2'x2'x4' fortress of redemption you are ok.

17. Lookout sir popular, probably played it 3 different ways, can lead to 'tanking' 2+ character at front for ablative wounds.

18. My CSM tired and ready for new codex.

19. Some older stuff, BT, Eldar etc still showing.

20. THSS back to uber attractive.

[DarkLink]

Or indeed, knowing who to accept the challenge with.

Exactly. I've started running Hammers on my Grand Master, and Staves on all my Justicars. That way I can accept or issue a challenge with either the Stave if it's a nasty opponent, or with the Hammer so my GM can punch them in the face. And if I have to refuse, it's only a handful of attacks I'm losing.

Taking damage-dealing wargear on non-characters is very important now, as well. That way they can't be blocked by the challenge.


The annoying thing about challenges, though, and something that I've seen happen several times, is when one side wipes out everyone but the challenger. You're left with two guys locked in a challenge, ineffectually slapping away at each other turn after turn, while you've got a dozen guys just sitting around watching. It's incredibly annoying. The Moral Support reroll bonus is more than inadequate. If it weren't for this one aspect of challenges, I wouldn't have any complaints about them.

[flekkzo]

Exactly. I've started running Hammers on my Grand Master, and Staves on all my Justicars. That way I can accept or issue a challenge with either the Stave if it's a nasty opponent, or with the Hammer so my GM can punch them in the face. And if I have to refuse, it's only a handful of attacks I'm losing.

Taking damage-dealing wargear on non-characters is very important now, as well. That way they can't be blocked by the challenge.


The annoying thing about challenges, though, and something that I've seen happen several times, is when one side wipes out everyone but the challenger. You're left with two guys locked in a challenge, ineffectually slapping away at each other turn after turn, while you've got a dozen guys just sitting around watching. It's incredibly annoying. The Moral Support reroll bonus is more than inadequate. If it weren't for this one aspect of challenges, I wouldn't have any complaints about them.

Can't you swap in a new character after the first turn of a challenge? That way (if possible) you can have a new guy run in and beat face. Just saying :)

[Mr.Pickelz]

It's still the issue of having a whole unit being worthless and just taking up room, while only one model at a time can fight.:mad:

[dwez]

a. Mind shackle nonsense in my DPs head, making him do smash attacks on himself.



S'funny because I missed they could do that, but then the last time I played my Hive Tyrant did just the one wound to himself and then he was locked in a Tesseract Labyrinth. From my efforts against Necrons I find you can't keep them at distance because their shooty and when you get up close and personal they have all sorts of things to whittle you down before you get to punch them in the face - the scarrabs, overwatching tesla, some lightning shield thing etc. Even when you get to muller them they then get back up again. No wonder they look down on everyone else as inferior, we are! ;)

[DarkLink]

Can't you swap in a new character after the first turn of a challenge? That way (if possible) you can have a new guy run in and beat face. Just saying :)

Only if you have multiple characters. And only if you have a character you're willing to risk losing, because AP2 usually means you're vulnerable to getting hit back with a power fist that the THSS Terminator is carrying.

There are three things you need in a challenge. You need AP2 and lots of quality attacks to do damage. You need 2+ armor and a great invulnerable save to tank hits. You need to be able to do your damage at higher than I1. There are very few units that can do the latter, and in many cases you need to pick between the former, and getting all 3 options at the right place and time is not always easy.

[KrewL RaiN]

With the challange bullcrap flying around, it wouldn't hurt to just drop that stupid rule. It's not hurting the game any if a TO decides to disallow it. If characters want to fight, isn't being in base to base contact enough?

[Denzark]

I am not a huge fan of challenges, Look out sir or the option to stick a 2+ charachter at the front of the squad and take all the saves as he speeds along at the tip of a wedge.

However, whilst I think it not unreasonable for 2 competitors to agree not to use mysterious whatever, to speed the game, I think it bad for TOs to pick and choose what they like out of the rule book. Why not bin the FOC or allow Necrons to take 19 flyers?

Answer is that it is not 40K if you do that- it is in effect a tournament of someone's house rules.

[isotope99]

I was there and did quite well (4 wins and a loss). As stated necrons did very well although it's hard to pick one factor as to why, I think its just a combination of lots of little buffs and hardly any nerfs from the rule changes.

Things I like from 6th edition:

Pre-measuring: Move and fire is now really important and the pre-measuring allows you to do some more tactical planning.

Vehicles. The hull points system worked pretty well (I am biased in that necrons have lots). Vehicles die not necessarily faster but more reliably. However, in the meantime they keep functioning more. One of my games was against venoms and they went down over the course of the game but did lots of damage when they were only one hull point down and before would have been shaken/destroyed.

New missions: It's much harder to play negatively for a draw with all the new rules and secondary objectives.

25% rally test: Feels better, although I hate the can rally even when enemy within 6".

Snap-fire: With the exception of necron tesla weapons (no explodfing 6's on snap fire would be a good way to nerf the crons a bit) this worked pretty well does a bit of damage but not fatal.

Less damage from dangerous terrain: Never did like the dangeropus terrain rules and now they are less important.

Warlord: The perks are a bit random but the extra VPs making them more important is fun without distorting the game too much.

Things I'm undecided about:

Flyers: They had a big presence and did well but weren't completely decisaive in any of my games. I think over time with more fortifications and anti-aircraft they will stabilise but in the short term expect to see lots.
Fix: put out some more AA in the next FAQ release and/or allow FW anti aircraft.

Randomised assault: I'm not sure about this. It's hugely frustrating when you fail a charge but the extra range is a much needed boost for assault units and pre-measuring allows you to play copnservatively if you like.

Look out Sir: I think this needs a lot more explanation as it was used in several different ways throughout the tournament. I think if it is not rolled on a per wound basis, it's not too bad. Initially we were playing that you coudl roll for every wound and so take some hits on your characters and some on the unit which was too good but if you have to take all or nothing on the character it's a greater risk. I'm still not 100% on how it is supposed to work.

Things I did not like

Vehicle assault: Even though it advantaged me with my scarabs, WS1 even on speeding vehicles is stupid. WS 10 on vehicles moving faster than 6" would have been much better.

Snap fire on aborted charges: IMHO it should be either you move or you don't. The idea that you get within an inch taking fire and then retreat back to your starting position is ridiculous

6" rally: Combined with the 25% test if you don't sweep its almost impossible to get rid of units in assault.

So mysterious: Only used the mysterious rules once and forgot after the first objective.

Challenges: Agree they should have just made it switch models so characters are in base to base and leave it at that. The wound allocation rules take care of the rest. In all my games we just played that the characters fight to the side and the rest of the unit goes at each other separately.


In case anyone cares my 1,500 army was:

2 Destroyer lords (scarabs & weave)
4 wraiths (2 whip coils)
3 Spyders
5 + 3 Scarabs
5 tesla immortals in Scythe
5 Gauss immortals on foot (behind the monolith)
5 Warriors in Ark
Monolith
Annhialation barge


Game 1: Scouring, horizontal deployment

Orks (Ghaz & meganobz in wagon, Wazz & bikers, lots of boys on foot and a few grots and artillery)
Kept ghaz occupied in the middle chewing up my scarabs, shot half the boys and assaulted the other half, jumped a couple of objectives at the end with ghaz too far from the action in the middle of the board.

WON

Game 2: Kill points, diagonal deployment (liked this one compared to old spearhead)

Dark eldar (4 venoms and raider with mix of trueborn, wyches and wracks, 3 void ravens)
Took lots of damage from shooting but ate the small DE units in assault. Not much left by the end but KP didn't help my opponent.

WON

Game 3: New seize ground, normal deployment

Necrons: Imotech and warriors, 2 full tesla squads, 3*7 scarabs, 3 annhialiation barges
A lucky seize the initiative helped me run down the big stormlord unit. Lost most of my vehicles to scarabs (even a couple of bases can be fatal) but tarpitted his infantry (they last forever if your opponent has no S6) with my scarabs and held my objectives.

WON

Game 4: Big guns, diagonal deployment
Necrons: (4 scythes with small immortal squads, Destroyer lord & wraith, Lord & chariot, 2 annhialation barges)

Massive swings of luck here from awesome saves to horrible shooting and assault distances. The scythes shooting wasn't that decisive and they often ended up out of position but their ability to drop squads wherever they want (especially that haywire cryptek) is completely evil and should be reconsidered IMHO. Cleared out most of his non-flyer units but needed an extra turn to retake objectives The loss of all my heavy support meant I was down on points when the game ended on turn 5.

LOST

Game 5: Relic, normal deployment

Chaos marines: (Slaanesh sorcerer, Slaanesh DP, Greater Daemon, 2 oblits, 3 chaos marine squads, vindicator, 2 Oblits, Allied vet squad and psyker)

The relic is the most unusual mission. I did well and nearly tabled my opponent after he failed both his first turn lash rolls but still almost missed out when my scoring units were quite some way from the objective he had carried back into his half. Grabbed it on turn 6, but nearly a draw.

WON

[StraightSilver]

It was my mate Toby who won with the Orks, and he is a very good player, plays on the UK team so he is tough to beat.

I hope he didn't shout too much though, he is a noisy bugger, we often employ ear plugs when going to tournies....:)

Lovely bloke though, he does have a habit of naming all his figures though and talking to them in-game.....

Nice to see team H.A.T.E doing so well though, wish I could have made it, but will def make the next one. :)

[Denzark]

It was Toby beat me (KP - is that scourge) although I don't think it was too bad as he was the overall winner. Roger the talking to his Orkses and shouting!

Iso I take it the Necrons that beat you were the afore-mentioned flying circus - its was just nasty.

I agree on the vehicle moving vs assault point.

WBB or whatever it is called now, on any weapon, is massively powerful.

[Toyz n the Hood]

Thanks for putting all this up - it sounds really promising. How was the horizontal set up in Warhammer World? I can imagine it being a bit of a nightmare with the set up of the tables in rows.

[Denzark]

Toyz didn't see your question. In answer, as long as you played carefully and encouraged everyone not to 'spread' ie rulebooks creeping onto next table, it worked alright. As did random mission selection. In fact I think of 5 deployments they did the other 2 twice and lengthways once, rolling for objective.

[Denzark]

I've been thinking baout what I saw, and I am now booked to go back in November. Sort of, get back on the horse that threw me. The change in 6th saw me go from WWWDL to WWLLL. So now I have to look at the composition of my Chaos army.

I have to say, I think the meta has changed, and my problem was that I could cope with any MEQ army, with tools against Mech and hth equally. However, my solution against horde was to pin it with high wounding berzerker charges.

Now this doesn't work against 20 strong necron mobs, all blasting 40 shots at you as you charge. And getting some 4+WBB even against power weapons.

I am not sure what to do about this beyond my blast templates were massively useful (defilers) and they may get a buff if new codex arrives.

In short, expect a lot more high model count and foot armies, especially necrons, and multiple raiders.

The Ork victory does show that a good list well played can overcome the new shenanigans - I note it had a flyer but didn't need to spam them.