Beams VS Flyers

[Tepogue]

Can Beam's hit Flyers?

Support:

Pg 69, Beam - The beam hits all models friend or foe, under the line

Against

Pg 81 - Hard to Hit, All shots against flyers are resolved as Snap Fire.
Template, Blast and large Blast cannot be used.

The main application that I am looking at is the Assail Power. Playing Chaos I'm looking at a Bike Sorcerer with Assail to drive around hitting the rear armor on flyers.

Assail for reference is range 18, S6 Beam

The only other thing is page 13 - Snap Shots - Attacks that don't use BS cannot be used to Snap Fire.

Does an auto hit beam use BS?

[eldargal]

If the beam targets the flyer then hard to hit can be invoked. If a BS roll is not required to hit with the weapon then it can't snap shot so it can't hit the flyer.

[Gloomfang]

If the beam targets the flyer then hard to hit can be invoked. If a BS roll is not required to hit with the weapon then it can't snap shot so it can't hit the flyer.

The issue isn't if it can be targeted (it can't) the issue is if the line goes through the unit after it hits its target. Think of it like JotWW (uses mostly the same rules) where the attack can hit units that can not be targeted (Out of LOS for example).

Personally I think that the flyer is hit, but that the AP roll can not be done becasue it is an invalid target. Like if you hit vehicle with JotWW. It is technically hit, but not effected.

Nid players have been debating it for weeks. They really need a 6th Ed. FAQ in the next month or so.

[Nachodragon]

Beam is exactly like all the other weapons that have been debated recently. GW did a horrible job on their rules for Flyers. Beams will hit Flyers, there is nothing that will stop this from happening. it does not target or shoot at the flyer, therefore, no other rules are invoked. Flyer hit.

...waiting for FAQ before continuing in this thread...

[Gloomfang]

Beam is exactly like all the other weapons that have been debated recently. GW did a horrible job on their rules for Flyers. Beams will hit Flyers, there is nothing that will stop this from happening. it does not target or shoot at the flyer, therefore, no other rules are invoked. Flyer hit.

...waiting for FAQ before continuing in this thread...

And you would be right except it is automaticly hit and Flyers can not be automaticly hit.

Thats my issue with it.

[Nachodragon]

No where does Hard to Hit state a flyer cannot be automatically hit, that is a big misconception about Hard to hit. But, again, FAQ will (hopefully) be helpful to resolve these rules.

[Gloomfang]

No where does Hard to Hit state a flyer cannot be automatically hit, that is a big misconception about Hard to hit. But, again, FAQ will (hopefully) be helpful to resolve these rules.

Special shooting attacks that automaticly hit (Like Monolith Particle Whip) can not hit Flyers.

I would say a PSA is a special attack.

I might be reading it wrong though.

[Nachodragon]

Special shooting attacks that automaticly hit (Like Monolith Particle Whip) can not hit Flyers.

I would say a PSA is a special attack.

I might be reading it wrong though.

That is not what it says. You are confusing two rules. Hard to Hit and Snap-fire. To get to snap-fire, you have to shoot at a flyer.

Snap-fire precludes things that do not use a BS to snap-fire, like the Monolith's portal of exile, as it is a strength test.

Also, any witchfire attacks could be used to shoot at a flyer as they roll to hit, those would need to be roll a 6 to hit, but are not otherwise precluded from firing at a flyer.

Any Nova style power could affect a flyer as it automatically targets and hits anything in its range. I think there is only one that would do anything to a flyer, but it could still do something.

BTW, the whip is an ordinance large blast weapon which would not be able to hit a flyer for an entirely different reason, because Hard to Hit states blasts cannot hit flyers.

[Mr.Pickelz]

So then does the Ork's Zapp psyker power affect flyers? as it's an Auto-hit power but with Str 10 and ap 2... :confused:

[Demonus]

Pg 81 - Hard to Hit, All shots against flyers are resolved as Snap Fire.
Template, Blast and large Blast cannot be used.

Until it is FAQ'd differently, a beam is not a template, blast or large blast, so it isnt treated as one for this rule.

If you and your opponent disagree, 4+ it on a d6 until GW words their **** better.

[Tynskel]

If the beam targets the flyer then hard to hit can be invoked. If a BS roll is not required to hit with the weapon then it can't snap shot so it can't hit the flyer.

I sense some consistency issues here...

[SeattleDV8]

Geez you guys, the ability to hit is not a problem.
All of the weapons ( vibrbocannon, Beam weapons , Psychic shooting attacks ) can most certainly hit, they can also deal Armour Penaetration.
BUT what they can not do ( if not a Snap Shot or Skyfire) is Resolve that Damage.
Just like a vehicle that has been hit and penetrated can ignore the damage if it has made it's saving throw.

Yes it is Hit.
Yes it is glanced (or penetrated)
But the damage is ignored if you make your save.

the same is true if you attack a flyer.

Yes it is Hit.
Yes it is glanced (or penetrated)
But if it was not from a Snap Shot or Skyfire, it is ignored.

Quit worring about hits, that isn't important, Hard to Hit deals with resolving damage.

[Renegade]

The rules for beam weapons is that they are a 1mm line, not a cone or a fan.

The rule for SSA's and for flyers effect what can hit in the case of line weapons, or those that auto-target. Unless something comes out that specifically states the flyer rules are disregarded in this case, the flyer rules are in effect and these weapons cannot effect flyers.

If this was already otherwise, there would be a line in the rules stating that they ignore the snap-fire and hard to hit rules.

[SeattleDV8]

Well, what the hell does that matter?
I agree that it hits.....so what, it still does not resolve.

Why can't you read the rules?

Yes you can hit
Yes you can glance (penetrate)

What you can't do is resolve the damage, with out that Hitting and AP don't mean squat ( not the short guys)
Really, this isn't that hard to figure out.
Hard to hit does not effect hitting, it does not armour penetration.
it does effect resolving Damage wihich means it doesn't mater if you hit.
If the hit wasn't a Snap Shot or Skyfire it does not resolve
If it doesn't resolve it does no damage.

[Tynskel]

heh heheh, you said 'Squat'.

[Nachodragon]

Hard to hit is about being shot at, hence the 'hard to hit'. Now, when shooting at a flyer you have to use snap-fire rules. None of the afornementioned items actually shoot at anything, they auto-hit. Snap-fire does not talk about wounding or armor penetration, it has nothing to do besides telling you how something can be hit. After that, the hard to hit is resolved. But, in these instances, the flyer is hit automatically, no snap-fire comes in to play. Hard to hit does not say it cannot be auto hit at all. The resolved as snap-fire only means you have to snap-fire when shooting at the flyer. Snap-fire doesnt deal with anything besides shooting, again, it does not deal with wounding or armor penetration.

[Tynskel]

hahahah. tell that to Necron Portal of Exile.

[Nachodragon]

hahahah. tell that to Necron Portal of Exile.

Not sure what tangent you are going on as flyers do not have a strength value and cannot be harmed by it, nor is it a beam style weapon. Try to keep things on topic and useful.

[Aramel]

As I mentioned in another post, this entire debate turns on the definition of "resolved" and nothing else. The relevant text on pg. 81 is: "Shots resolved at zooming flyers can only be resolved as snap shots."

The only comparable use of the word "resolve" that I have found is on pg. 21 "Resolve Overwatch" where it says that "an overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." The implication is thus that "resolve" includes the entire shooting sequence set out on pg. 12.

Pg. 7 specifically states that basic rules include the rules for shooting and that basic rules are overriden by advanced rules or contradicting codex language. Although it's not terribly specific, the rulebooks states, on pg. 69, that witchfire powers are "manifested during the Psycher's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon," which suggests that the rules governing witchfire powers are basic and not advanced.

If this is the case, the advanced Hard to Hit rule will override and make beam weapons unable to be "resolved" against a zooming flyer. I suppose it could be argued that the psychic power section rules are all advanced, but I think that is improbable.

[Nachodragon]

Understandable, but also irrelevant to discussion. The flyer is auto-hit and there really is no 'shot'. Having said that, this really needs a FAQ so as not to prompt so many discussions and arguments.

[Tynskel]

Not sure what tangent you are going on as flyers do not have a strength value and cannot be harmed by it, nor is it a beam style weapon. Try to keep things on topic and useful.

Flying Monsterous Creatures are 'Hard to Hit', or are you going to tell me the Portal of Exile works on them?

[SeattleDV8]

As I mentioned in another post, this entire debate turns on the definition of "resolved" and nothing else. The relevant text on pg. 81 is: "Shots resolved at zooming flyers can only be resolved as snap shots."

The only comparable use of the word "resolve" that I have found is on pg. 21 .



BRB page 74 Resolving Damage is what the rule is talking about.
i.e. a Glancing hit removes a Hull point
A Penetrating hit removes a Hull point and grants a roll on the Vehicle Damage table.
This is what the Hard to Hit rule stops if you havn't used Snap Shot or Skyfire.

[Renegade]

Easier way and saves the back and forth. We agree to dice it till GW FAQ the matter, just make sure this is done at the start of the game. Eldar have plenty of things that work in a similar way (haywire grenades) and tourneys will house rule it as they see fit anyway, so it hardly matters what they do.

I don't think any other consensus is going to come from this.

[Nachodragon]

I have better things to do then debate this again, i will wait for FAQ.

[Tynskel]

So, no talking about portal of exile vs flying monstrous creatures...

[Lemt]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=22913

Already discussed.