Proof that Broodlord can use Assail and Shockwave

[Gloomfang]

There have been a lot of debates about if the BS0 broodlord can use a Witchfire shooting attack. Most people have been saying that a BS0 can not use ANY shooting attack even if it autohits.

However there is a precident that has been found that proves that broodlords can use shooting attacks that autohit.

Old Zogwort in the Orc Codex.:D

He is rather unknown and most Orc players never field him. However he has been around for at least 3 editions.

What is special about him? He is a Warp 'Ead. He must use a random power. Two of them are psychic shooting attacks that autohit. He is blind so he is BS0 (with no special rules that let him shoot).

And in 3 edition FAQs it has NEVER been said that he can't use those two powers.

So we have 2 psykers, both BS0, both have psychic shooting attacks, both attacks autohit.

So with a precident we can comfotably say that the broodlord can use any Witchfire attack that autohits.

[Wolfshade]

While I would normally agree and say that that is a clear precedent, i would say that it was far from straight forward. They are in different dexs and the powers are different.
Don't forget at one stage we had different varieties of Storm Sheilds going around until an errata was released.

[Dlatrex]

I must concur. The case you presented is the closest we have to a true precedent but it is far from a perfect match. As wolfshade said we also have precedent that different codexes may have very different iterations of the same item/power. What's more the warp head powers are not classified (explicitly) as Witchfire powers which (explicitly) are listed to be shooting attacks regardless of the mechanism.

Now, since I don't have my BRB in front of me, is there a section that says a BS0 character may not shoot? I understand that value is not represented on the to-hit table, but I don't remember the book addressing that characteristic value in general...

[Tepogue]

If the Ork Codex was a current edition codex (instead of a 4th ed one) you might have a point.

If the 6th Ork Faq had addressed Ork Powers and classifed them into the new types of Powers you might have had a basis.

As it stands, Sorry, Broodlord still can't use Witchfire powers.

[Wolfshade]

Now, since I don't have my BRB in front of me, is there a section that says a BS0 character may not shoot? I understand that value is not represented on the to-hit table, but I don't remember the book addressing that characteristic value in general...

Hmm, I was going to say that it is in the characteristics explaination whereby anyone with a value of 0 is assumed to automatically fail any test using that characteristic.
But if it is that wording then you have auto pass vs. auto fail, or is it a case of not needing to roll to hit at all (rather than the ruling of auto-hit)

[Wolfshade]

Doesn't the witchfire rule state that you have to roll to hit?

[Dlatrex]

For witchfire in general, yes. However there are sub-types such as beam, and nova which do not 'roll to hit'. Assail is a beam and shockwave is a Nova. These are still 'shooting attacks' but like templates attacks do not follow the typical structure of a to-hit roll.

[Wolfshade]

So, the template/blast may be used (but not as a snap shot) unless the rules specifically says that a model with a BS 0 may not shoot.
I think that I would rather jsut take the standard dex powers :rolleyes:

[Gloomfang]

If the Ork Codex was a current edition codex (instead of a 4th ed one) you might have a point.

If the 6th Ork Faq had addressed Ork Powers and classifed them into the new types of Powers you might have had a basis.

As it stands, Sorry, Broodlord still can't use Witchfire powers.

The 6th ed rules state that any psychic shooting attack from previous edition codexes are to be considered Witchfire powers. So that is what classified them into the new types of powers, not the FAQ or Codex.

If the change to Witchfire affected how Old Zogwort worked then it would have been in the new 6th Orc FAQ. It is not. There is even a section for Zogwort in the FAQ on how his rules are diffrent in 6th edition. If he could not use his powers then it definitly would have been mentioned there.

So if he can use Frazzle and Zzap in 6th so can the Broodlord use Assail and Shockwave.

[bfmusashi]

I'd challenge their sources. There is nothing under Zero-Level Characteristics p3 nor the entire Shooting Phase section p12-19 saying you can't fire. You simply can not roll to hit. If the power bypasses this (like being a Witchfire Nova or Maelstrom) then I see nothing in the rule book preventing its use. If someone does shout it out!

[Gloomfang]

I'd challenge their sources. There is nothing under Zero-Level Characteristics p3 nor the entire Shooting Phase section p12-19 saying you can't fire. You simply can not roll to hit. If the power bypasses this (like being a Witchfire Nova or Maelstrom) then I see nothing in the rule book preventing its use. If someone does shout it out!

People are using the Zero Level Char. section on pg3. It does not say specificly that BS0 can not shoot, but it says can not take an action related to the stat if the stat is zero. It does say can not attack for WS0.

As that gives them enough wiggle room to argue I have been forced to cite precident saying that they are wrong. Old Zogwort is that precident.

[Mr Mystery]

Has anyone run this up the GW Flagpole?

Because you know, the 8th Edition Fantasy FAQs benfitted from massive feedback and clarification requests.

[Denzark]

It would be possible for the following chain of events:

1. BS0 mean no shooting.

2. Zogwort to be allowed to use psychic shooting powers.

3. And the Brood Lord not to be able to.

The reason being that codex trumps BRB. But just because the Ork codex allows Zogwort to do something outside the BRB it doesn't automatically allow something not in the Ork codex, or even any entry other than Zogwort, to do so.

[Gloomfang]

The reason being that codex trumps BRB. But just because the Ork codex allows Zogwort to do something outside the BRB it doesn't automatically allow something not in the Ork codex, or even any entry other than Zogwort, to do so.

The orc codex does not allow Zogwort to do anything. He is a Warp 'Ead. He has to use a random power from the same table that all other Orc psykers do. If he had a special table to roll on or had some rule that said "Zogwort can use shooting powers even though he has BS0" you would be right.

The thing that makes him a special charater is that he can turn people into squigs and he has a poison attack. The FAQ specificly mentions that he can use his Squiq Curse power even if in CC.

So if there is nothing giving him permision in the Codex and there is nothing in the FAQ specifying it is an unusual case, then it must be the standard rules that allow him to do it. If it is the standard rules than any other units that meet the same criteria can also do it.

[ragnarcissist]

i personally would have no problem with it because i wouldnt want you to be punished for a RANDOM roll, and also because tyranids need all the help they can get!!

[SeattleDV8]

The problem is that although Zogwort may have the power nothing tells us he can use it.

For example, a Weirdboy embarked on a transport may get a shooting attack but may not have a way to use it.
Nothing in the Orc Codex allows him to use the power he has gained.

Several powers granted in the new Psychic power take 2 Warp Charges to use, if you only have one charge ,you could have the power but never be able to use it.

I'm hoping that GW will fix this, but as it stands now Broodlords can't use psychic shooting powers.

[Nachodragon]

The problem is that although Zogwort may have the power nothing tells us he can use it.

For example, a Weirdboy embarked on a transport may get a shooting attack but may not have a way to use it.
Nothing in the Orc Codex allows him to use the power he has gained.

Several powers granted in the new Psychic power take 2 Warp Charges to use, if you only have one charge ,you could have the power but never be able to use it.

I'm hoping that GW will fix this, but as it stands now Broodlords can't use psychic shooting powers.

If you roll for a warp charge 2 power and you only have a mastery level 1, it does state you re-roll for another power.

[SeattleDV8]

Fair enough, just wish they has put something simular in the 'Nid FAQ

[Gloomfang]

The problem is that although Zogwort may have the power nothing tells us he can use it.

For example, a Weirdboy embarked on a transport may get a shooting attack but may not have a way to use it.
Nothing in the Orc Codex allows him to use the power he has gained.


I'm hoping that GW will fix this, but as it stands now Broodlords can't use psychic shooting powers.

Actully the Orc FAQ says EXACTLY what happens when you are in a transport and you roll a power. For every power. And actuly the Codex FORCES him to use the power (All Warp 'Eads must use the power that is rolled every turn.) So they give him a compulsion that he MUST use a power that he CAN'T use and then never once puts something in the FAQ on how to deal with these powers he can't use?

They didn't need to FAQ it becasue he can use it normaly and doesn't need a special rule or FAQ explanation.

[SeattleDV8]

Both Zzap and Frazzle state "Fired from the vehicle following the normal rules for passengers firing"
Hardly the massive over-ride you have implied.
The 'normal rules' can prevent the power from being used, just like the Broodlord.

[Gloomfang]

Both Zzap and Frazzle state "Fired from the vehicle following the normal rules for passengers firing"
Hardly the massive over-ride you have implied.
The 'normal rules' can prevent the power from being used, just like the Broodlord.

OK then point to me in either the Orc Codex or the 4th, 5th or 6th Ed. FAQs where it states that while while Pg. 37 of the Orc Codex says that a Wierdboy MUST use a randomly generated power to use in the shooting phase its OK for Old Zogwort to NOT use one of these shooting powers.Two of the 6 powers are psychic shooting attacks (Witchfire powers by 6th Ed rules). Oddly all Orc powers are Witchfire.

Oh and his Curse? Also a Witchfire power that automatically hits.

Also no mention in the 6th ed Orc FAQ that "Oh by they way Zogwort can use Witchfire powers despite the fact he is BS0 and would not normally be able to use Witchfire powers."

So according to you there is a 140pt Orc psyker that can not use ANY of his psych powers (Even the special one that only he has access too) because he is BS0 and can not use Witchfire powers. And they NEVER got around to mention in any FAQ (Even though he has 2 sections in the 6th Ed. FAQ) they he can use his power?

Or you can just use Witchfire powers that autohit with a BS0 psyker and it didn't need to be given permission to use it.

Still waiting for the exact passage that says BS0 can not make shooting attacks. In those words and not inferred from the WS0 passage on pg3.

[SeattleDV8]

You already did.
BRB page 3
...which means they have no ability whatsoever in that field.
A model with WS0 is auto hit and may not swing back
A model with Attack 0 may make no attacks.
A model with armour 0 have no armour save.

It isn't implied , it clear you cannot use that ability at all.

Having BS 0 means they can't fire at all.

Stop looking for loop-holes, house rule it if you wish (i believe most people would go along with that) but as far as the RAW the Broodlord has no shooting, psychic or otherwise.
The Orc FAQ is mostly the 5th ed FAQ.
It doesn't state what you are saying.

[Gloomfang]

You already did.
BRB page 3
A model with WS0 is auto hit and may not swing back
A model with Attack 0 may make no attacks.
A model with armour 0 have no armour save.

It isn't implied , it clear you cannot use that ability at all.

Having BS 0 means they can't fire at all.

Stop looking for loop-holes, house rule it if you wish (i believe most people would go along with that) but as far as the RAW the Broodlord has no shooting, psychic or otherwise.
The Orc FAQ is mostly the 5th ed FAQ.
It doesn't state what you are saying.

Again where does it say a model with a BS0 can not make a shooting attack. It doesn't.

And all that stuff in pink in the Orc FAQ is not there for 6th?

I would say there was an even better case for not being able to do it in 5th because it at least said that BS0 couldn't use missile weapons (pg.7 LRB 5th).

And for reference (pg50 LRB 5th) the section on Psychic Shooting Attacks has the same exact language as Witchfire. "..counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless otherwise specified)". So the SAME RULE that you say stops both Zogwort and my Broodlord from shooting WAS in 5th and in the 4+ years that we were playing 5th (Orc Codex is 4th Ed.) they never had to clarify that Zogwart is the only one who can use a PSA with BS0 in the FAQ?

It is not a loophole. It is trying to see if RAI matches RAW (as RAW does not say someone with a BS0 can not fire a weapon. Probably because BS0 would need a 7 on a D6 with anything other than an attack that autohits and in that case I would in theory still roll a die, but what it comes up doesn't matter.)

That you are satying that I can not even attempt to fire is your opinion. It is not the rules and as I have shown there is precedent that RAI say BS0 can use PSA's that autohit.

[Wolfshade]

First thing it's Ork people, if you want to talk about Orcs take it to the WFB please :D

While the fluff does say that having a 0 characteristic means that the model has no skill what so ever, this is not a rule nor does it say that the model cannot do something. The fluff says that Zagstruk deepstrikes into combat, but the rules state that you cannot do this and this would result in deepstrike mishap.

If a model with BS 0 had a weapon that required a roll to hit (why you would do this, who knows) and was influenced by wargear/psychic power/other effect that gave him a +1, instead of needing to roll 7+ to hit, he would then need to roll 6+.

I may have no ability whatsoever in batting against yorkers, but it doesn't mean that I don't hit the occassional one through long off.

If the warp fire power requires a roll "to hit" then the Broodlord would automatically fail, as per the rules
If the warp fire power were a template, template weapons automatically hit, regardless of the "firers" BS, so the Broodlord would hit
If the warp fire power were a blast it would scatter 2D6"- 0 (Firer's BS)

The crux of it is whether or not the rule book says that models with a BS 0 may not shoot

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry but what part of no ability don't you understand?
No ability means can't use the ability , which means the model can not shoot.
Even if the attack automatically hits the model may not use that ability.
Actually the rule clearly states that a zero level characteristic can not be used.
A model with a WS 0 can not fight or defend himself.
A model with A 0 may not attack
armour - has no save (cover and inv of course is possible , but those aren't armour)
If a Model has 0 T,S or W it is removed, it can't even exist.
Why is it so hard to see that a model with BS 0 can't shoot?


Special rules can over-rule the general rules if they are spelled out (like Zagstruk and your totally silly example) but the Broodlord doesn't have this.

If a model can not shoot, it can't use psychic shooting attacks.
Dumb? yes ....RAW? also yes

[Wolfshade]

The part where having no ability is the same as being unable to do something.
My golfing would be described as having no ability, but it doesn't mean I can't swing a club and hit the ball.

If it is the intention of the rules that BS0 means that the model cannot shoot, then yes I would agree with you that you cannot use any type of shooting attack.

If it is that a BS0 means that they ordinarily require a roll of 7 to hit (7-BS) and so in normal circumstances (conventional weapons) would not be able to hit the broad side of a barn then given a weapon that does not require a roll to hit then they would be able to use it.

I have to say, my initial thoughts on this were that the Broodlord shouldn't be able to use it, and I am not sure that I would pick such powers over his dex powers.
Maybe I am just overcomplicating it.

[Learn2Eel]

Sorry but what part of no ability don't you understand?
No ability means can't use the ability , which means the model can not shoot.
Even if the attack automatically hits the model may not use that ability.

Special rules can over-rule the general rules if they are spelled out (like Zagstruk and your totally silly example) but the Broodlord doesn't have this.

If a model can not shoot, it can't use psychic shooting attacks.
Dumb? yes ....RAW? also yes

Let's break this all down.

You are saying that a model that is BS0 cannot shoot at all even if it is a weapon that automatically hits, even though there is absolutely no mention of anything like that in the rules? Please clarify, does it say you can't roll to hit or you can't use shooting attacks? If it is the latter, you may have a point. If it is the former, then this argument is pretty clear. I don't have the rulebook at hand but I assume that this ruling is not present, there is merely that "no ability" statement. As far as I can see, it says absolutely nothing about not being able to shoot.

In any case, let's look at what it says in the Ork codex and Ork FAQ, updated for 6th edition.

Old Zogwort is BS0. He rolls on the table like other Weirdboys, as mentioned in the entry for "Zogwort's Curse", page 61 of the Ork Codex;


Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic chart

I did read both the FAQ and the codex on Zogwort's Curse, and it is not listed as a psychic shooting attack, though it manifests in the shooting phase, per the Weirdboy power ruling, page 37 of the Ork codex;


At the beginning of each Ork Shooting Phase, a Weirdboy must roll on the following table to determine which psychic power he must use that turn.

I believe that in 5th Edition, any power that would target an enemy model in the shooting phase would be classed as a shooting attack; see the FAQ ruling on Lash of Submission for Chaos Space Marines for reference. In 6th Edition, it states in regards to witchfire powers, page 69 of the BRB;


Witchfire powers are manifested during the Psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

Given this ruling, and seeing that blessings, conjurations and maledictions are used in the movement phase, one would think that it is clear we should refer to Zogwort's Curse as a witchfire power. However, the confusion arises from the fact that not all Weirdboy psychic powers are considered to be witchfire powers by the FAQ. However, there is no mention that Old Zogwort cannot use these powers; if he was unable to, it would be specified in his entry that he must re-roll on the chart to use another power. As it does not, we can assume he may use those powers.

For reference, let's look at what it says about each power.

This is the entry on "Frazzle", page 37 of the Ork Codex;


Choose an enemy unit within line of sight. If in range, that unit is automatically hit.

It is key to note though that Frazzle is listed as a Blast weapon; however, the other witchfire power, Zzap, is not. From Page 37 of the Ork Codex;


Choose an enemy unit within line of sight. If in range, that unit is automatically hit.

Zzap is listed neither as a blast, large blast, or template weapon.
Old Zogwort is capable of using this power, and as it hits automatically, there is no need to roll to hit.

Now, given the information above, let's look at the profiles of Assail and Shockwave.

Assail is a Beam power. Under the BRB, page 69, the following is stated;


The beam automatically hits all models (friend or foe), other than the psyker, under the line.

Shockwave is a Nova power. Under the BRB, page 69, novas are listed similarly;


A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units within the psychic power's maximum range....

Given that Old Zogwort may use Frazzle or Zzap as his psychic power in a turn - as there is no evidence whatsoever in Codex, FAQ or otherwise that disallows him from doing this - given that they automatically hit, even though they are classed as witchfire powers, I believe it is safe to assume that a Broodlord, with BS0, identical to Old Zogwort, should be able to use Assail and Shockwave, as they are powers that automatically hit.

Unless you can come up with compelling evidence as to why a model that is BS0 cannot use a power that is assumed to automatically hit or indeed automatically hits, I think that this is pretty clear cut.
Given that Old Zogwort has never been disallowed from using Frazzle or Zzap, your argument is not strong.

Also, this is the entry that has been the basis of your argument, page 3 of the BRB;


ZERO-LEVEL CHARACTERISTICS
Some creatures have been given a 0 for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that field.

A model with a Weapon Skill of '0' is incapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows. A model with no Attacks cannot strike any blows in close combat. A warrior with an Armour Save of '-' has no armour save at all.

Please refer to me where it says a model with BS0 cannot make an attempt to shoot a weapon? You can't use the ruling on an entirely different characteristic as validation for your claims.
It is assumed that a model with BS0 cannot roll to hit as it cannot hit. At no point does it say you cannot shoot a weapon at all. Old Zogwort can use psychic shooting attacks that hit automatically exactly because they hit automatically.
Nova and Beam powers hit automatically - there is no need to roll to hit.
As such, I see no reason why a Broodlord cannot use Assail and Shockwave.

EDIT: Ignore that last FAQ ruling, I misinterpreted that (regarding Zogwort's poisoned attacks).

Despite all that I have just written, I will say that I definitely see where you are coming from.

[Learn2Eel]

Actually the rule clearly states that a zero level characteristic can not be used.

Special rules can over-rule the general rules if they are spelled out (like Zagstruk and your totally silly example) but the Broodlord doesn't have this.

If a model can not shoot, it can't use psychic shooting attacks.
Dumb? yes ....RAW? also yes

Have to highlight these three bits.

It doesn't say ANYWHERE that a zero level characteristic cannot be used. It says only that they have "no ability" in that field - not in the general sense you are talking about. BS is not mentioned, likely for a reason.

Yes they do.
And in this case, you are wrong. There is no special rule that says that Zogwort is able to use a psychic shooting attack despite being BS0. He is assumed to be able to do it because those psychic shooting attacks he has access to hit automatically. There is nothing in the rules of either the Weirdboy or Zogwort that mentions this at all. It is not a special rule that overrides the main rules. It is quite clearly RAW, as Zogwort can use those powers without any clarification from special rules.

That is RAI, not RAW, which you are claiming to be using as evidence. There is no RAW saying that a model with BS0 cannot shoot. Using the Old Zogwort example, it isn't even RAI, as it is not a special rule that overrides it; Frazzle and Zzap are Ork-specific psychic powers which are listed as witchfire powers that hit automatically. Given that it is not governed by a special rule, we can assume that, as Zogwort can use those powers, this applies to other models; would a BS0 model not be able to use a flamer even though template weapons hit automatically?

[SeattleDV8]

That's great, except for one little problem, you have not proven that Zogwort can use a psychic shooting attack.
He has that power but he doesn't have premission to use it.
Granted that is how the GAP was played in 5th, but almost no one actually played Zogwart (in that he was a totally crap choice) is hardly evidence that he could use shooting attacks.
Hell, in 5th there were seversl IC's tha t had wargear that they could never use.
GW has done that time and time again, just because a unit has a power has never shown that they could use it.

That's the flaw in your circular argument, you have not shown that Zogwort can actually use psychic shooting attacks.

No ability means no
As in no shooting, none , nil, null set, none, not happening , not a chance and just plain nope.
A model with no ability cannot fire.
You know, just as the rules state.

Sorry but that means even an automatic hit doesn't work.
Please stop looking for Easter egg and silly loopholes.
House rule to your hearts content, I'll even agree to play it that way, but don't pretend that it is RAW because it isn't.

[Renegade]

I would say that the ability is past on by it being a psychic power and that power having its own rules, overruling normal rules. It would be extremely nice if GW would clear up the subject.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes indeed, but sadly GW doesn't seem to think that is needed.....FEH.

[Chris Copeland]

To the OP: nice use of precident! You've convinced me. I think you are right and that our Seattle friend has it wrong. Just my two cents. Cheers! Cope

[SeattleDV8]

Not a problem, this is all just opinion, and mine holds no more weight than your's.

[Chris Copeland]

Fair. I couldn't agree more. I'm like a juror: I found one side's argument more convincing. We'll see how it unfolds in the local San Antonio meta. It was a fun debate to watch. Cheers.

[Learn2Eel]

I do agree with your points SeattleDV8.
If it weren't for the fact that it hasn't been clarified that Zogwort can't use Frazzle and Zzap, it'd be a clear argument. Unfortunately, I've never seen anyone suggest he can't use them. I'm pretty sure I've seen a few units have to re-roll on tables similar to this one if they get an ability they can't use - it is specified in their special rules or FAQ, don't quote me on that though. It's just odd that it doesn't specify with Old Zogwort.
An FAQ would be really nice.

[Gloomfang]

I am hearing that a FAQ is due out in Aug for 6th. (Just like 8th). I know from folks who have seen the work in progress that BS0 can use autohitting powers. So I can always wait for the FAQ. I know they are fixing the wording on HoW as well.

[SeattleDV8]

I truly hope so.
'Nid's don't need any more nerfs.