Howling banshee question

[jcflanker]

Suppose I have a squad of banshees that have been nicely converted with power axes.

In the 6th ed rules it says that if the squad has a power weapon, whatever the weapon the model has is the power weapon that it has. In this case power axes (+1 strength unwieldy ). Unwieldy makes you strike at I1 however the banshee mask makes them I10 in the first turn of close combat. Would the banshees with the power axes be I10 or I1 the first turn of combat?

Also it appears that the banshee exarch’s executioner and mirror swords are not in the weapon list in the back of the 6th ed rule book but the triskele is in there.

What is the stats for the executioner and mirror swords?

I looked at the FAQ but there is nothing that answeres these questions there.

[Kyban]

I don't remember any "power axes" that the banshees have, they have power swords and the others are unusual power weapons as they have additional rules.

[Nachodragon]

Mirror swords ignore armor saves and is not actually a power weapon. As for the Executioner, it would be AP3. It is an Unusual Power Weapon.

Now, for the power weapons that the banshees have... we shall see what a FAQ for the BRB brings, but they start with an AP3 power thing. If it is modeled differently I would say you roll off based on the modifiers rule. basically, a 50% chance they strike at either initiative.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I don't remember any "power axes" that the banshees have, they have power swords and the others are unusual power weapons as they have additional rules.Ruleswise, they have "Power Weapons", not "Swords". Plus, apparently some of the older models did actually have axes.http://store.wargamingtrader.com/system/files/imagecache/product_full/E742%20-%20Rogue%20Trader%20Howling%20Banshee%20Exarch%20x %204%20-%201990%20%20%20%20%2011-06-22.jpg

The Chaos Marine squad kit only comes with a Power Sword, but I can choose to model it as an Axe, Mace or Spear if I so desire. The Banshees are no different.

As to the question, apparently due to Unwieldy modifying the Init. of attacks with that weapon, rather than the models Init., it overrides the mask. Balancewise, I agree with that - otherwise Axes would be purely superior to other choices.

There was already a thread on this, use the searchbar to find it.

[Kyban]

I didn't know they had the axes in old model, doesn't seem to fit, I couldn't check the wording either. As to whether it overrides or not it doesn't actually say that in the rules but it could work that way or you could have to roll off.

[Gotthammer]

^ that's the original Exarch model, says so right there on the tab. Power axe was one of the unique Exarch weapons she could roll up.

[Archon Charybdis]

Some people have argued that the Banshee mask gives the model I10, but the Unwieldy rule makes them "strike" at I1. I'm not particularly convinced by that, but even if that is incorrect, you're then dealing with two different fixed value modifiers, which means you have to roll off every time to see which one applies. In either case, I'd say it's not worth the hassle and stick to doom/guide bladestorms or volume of S6 shots to take care of 2+ saves.

[bfmusashi]

Don't forget her sweet las pistol!

[Gloomfang]

If they are have axes in their hands they have Power Axes per the rules and strike a I1. With a mask on the charge you roll a D6 to see if they are I1 or I10. Both are set modifers. Works the same way if a Banshee on the charge hits a lash whip/whip coil.

[Mr Mystery]

If they are have axes in their hands they have Power Axes per the rules and strike a I1. With a mask on the charge you roll a D6 to see if they are I1 or I10. Both are set modifers. Works the same way if a Banshee on the charge hits a lash whip/whip coil.

Nope. Unwieldy over rules, same as a Powerfist combined with assault or plasma grenades.

Though you never know, Bumshee masks might make your opponent I1 (which makes a lot more sense to my ind) in the next Codex....

[JMichael]

There are several other threads with this same question.
But as others have said it, Unwieldy doesn't modify your actually Initiative. It just means you strike with that weapon at Initiative Step 1.

[Nachodragon]

If it doesn't modify the models initiative, does the Banshee pile in at I5 (or I10 if first round of combat) and then strike at I1?

[Tynskel]

Unwieldly is a Set Bonus used during close combat. At the time the Initiative step is called upon, the model's initiative is currently 1, not anything else.

Banshee Masks are a Set bonus of 10. They are Initiative 10 during Close Combat, and would make their 'pile in' moves at I10.

If you give some Banshees Axes, then you would roll a 4+ for Initiative 10, otherwise Initiative 1.
Banshees with Axes are Wicked. 50% of the squad striking piling it at I10 with Str 4 AP2 and a bajillion attacks. That's a solid chance of cutting down a terminator squad before they can do anything.

[Captainparty]

And then in the new codex next year Banshees will have power swords and you'll have to change them all back.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

And then in the new codex next year Banshees will have power swords and you'll have to change them all back.

Read my mind man. :D

[eldargal]

Actually given that several 6th ed FAQs have changed references to 'power sword' to 'power weapon' GW seem to be going towards letting players choose what type of power weapon they want.

[Wolfshade]

And then in the new codex next year Banshees will have power swords and you'll have to change them all back.
Some of the older banshee models are cast with axes not swords

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yeah, but it just seems so..... cheap? I like swords, they look cool, swapping them for Power Axes just seems a bit "power gamer-y" to me. Maybe just the Exarch?

Axes, even though the old models used to have them, I don't think that they're fitting for Banshees.

However, I do like the idea of Banshees with Power Spears. :D

[Captainparty]

Actually given that several 6th ed FAQs have changed references to 'power sword' to 'power weapon' GW seem to be going towards letting players choose what type of power weapon they want.

Only because in those instances, power sword was incorrect, I am very sure we'll see in the next few weeks that codexes will be using specific names for power weapons for specific units. I don't think we'll be seeing Chaos Terminators with Power Lances...

[eldargal]

What was incorrect about the SoB having access to power swords?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What was incorrect about the SoB having access to power swords?

Because they should all have Power Mauls. :D

[Captainparty]

What was incorrect about the SoB having access to power swords?

Because when that codex was written, Power Sword was incorrect, and, there are SoB models with Power Mauls. It brings it in to line with other codexes becuase that errata was added before 6th ed.

All I am saying, is that going forward, new codexes will only let certain units have certain types of power weapons, its obviously the way they are going to move things when you read the rule book

[eldargal]

Why was it incorrect? They had power swords in 2nd edition, they had power swords in 3rd edition, they had power swords when the WD codex was printed, now they have access to power swords and the rest.

No, it certainly is not clear. It explicitly states you have to look at the model to determine the type, and most references to specific power weapon types are being erratad to go to the generic power weapons type. That to me, and many others both here an on Warseer, indicates they are moving away from specifying what type of power weapon.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There's nothing more terrifying than a woman who's right. :p

[Captainparty]

Why was it incorrect? They had power swords in 2nd edition, they had power swords in 3rd edition, they had power swords when the WD codex was printed, now they have access to power swords and the rest.

No, it certainly is not clear. It explicitly states you have to look at the model to determine the type, and most references to specific power weapon types are being erratad to go to the generic power weapons type. That to me, and many others both here an on Warseer, indicates they are moving away from specifying what type of power weapon.

This was incorrect because there was no such thing as a Power Sword in the rules for 5th, there were Power Weapons, so calling it a power sword was incorrect, that was a 5th ed codex and it was changed in a 5th ed FAQ.

All 5th ed codexes should have called them Power Weapons, they were all errata'd before 6th ed, which is why they aren't pink in the latest FAQs, so for now, they are all Power Weapons and you base the type on the model, yes.

However.

The rule book states that when a model has a power weapon and their unit entry doesn't specify what type it is, then look at the model to determine what it is, which actually seems to suggest that they will be specified in codexes actually, because it treats them not being specified as the exception whcih requires you to look at the model.

So, I guess you and the others on here and Warseer, two such reputable and intelligent communties, are pretty much wrong as we will see in the Chaos Codex, when we will see access to certain power weapons on a unit by unit basis.

[Captainparty]

There's nothing more terrifying than a woman who's right. :p

There is, one who has been proved wrong!

[eldargal]

That is wrong, Codex: Space Marines also references power swords (p52), in terms of rules yes there are no specific rules for any kind of power weapon in the BRB. It still does nothing for your argument that things are moving from general to specific when your examples are of specific being faqed to general on the basis that 5th was supposed to be general too.

[eldargal]

Ok so let's set this out:

5th edition had no rules for specific power weapons because they all just ignored armour saves, specifying which was just for appearance/fluff purposes or to give another weapon the ability to ignore armour saves (a la agoniser & huskblade).

5th edition Codex: Space Marines (2008) mentions power swords. (specific)
5th edition Codex: Imperial Guard (2009, I think) mentions 'power weapons. (general)
5th edition Codex: Grey Knights (2011) mentions 'power swords' (specific)
5th edition Codex: Sisters of Battle (2011) mentions 'power swords' (specific)

6th ed BRB states that power weapons now have specific rules, and directs us to to look to the model to determine which. A huge move to general.

6th edition FAQs replace mentions of specific types of power weapon, like the power sword, with the generic label 'power weapon'. Another huge shift to general.

Now you are arguing this is paving the way towards a wholesale shift towards specific power weapons.

You will pardon me if I consider that a rather ludicrous and entirely baseless claim.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There is, one who has been proved wrong!

Are you sure? Eeep.

[jcflanker]

Unwieldly is a Set Bonus used during close combat. At the time the Initiative step is called upon, the model's initiative is currently 1, not anything else.

Banshee Masks are a Set bonus of 10. They are Initiative 10 during Close Combat, and would make their 'pile in' moves at I10.

If you give some Banshees Axes, then you would roll a 4+ for Initiative 10, otherwise Initiative 1.
Banshees with Axes are Wicked. 50% of the squad striking piling it at I10 with Str 4 AP2 and a bajillion attacks. That's a solid chance of cutting down a terminator squad before they can do anything.

So to get this straight: the rule for Unwieldy says "A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a MC or Walker". It doesn’t say it modifies the models Initiative, just that the actual weapon strikes at initiative 1. The model still has initiative 10 for when it makes its pile in moves, but strikes at I1.

If I have a squad of 10 banshees 4w/ power swords 5 w/ power axes and an Exarch with an executioner. Send the Exarch in with a executioner and try to take out opposing power weapons with Precision Strikes. Have the 4 with the swords up front with the Exarch they would all (4 banshees with power swords and the exarch) strike at I10 Let the swords do a little damage (or just take the hits from power weapons or fists) and then have the banshees with the power axes pile in at I10 and then strike at I1.

It’s basically like putting a few power fists in for free.

[jcflanker]

Nope. Unwieldy over rules, same as a Powerfist combined with assault or plasma grenades.

Though you never know, Bumshee masks might make your opponent I1 (which makes a lot more sense to my ind) in the next Codex....

i totally think that too. In the next codex the mask should be made to make the opposing unit be I 1

[eldargal]

Yup, and as delightful as it would be to have I5, S4 AP2 Fortune Banshees smacking up Doomed terminators it would be ridiculously OP.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

All I can hear is "trollololololololol" (www.youtube.com/watch?v=yunSRfnsVck).

[Tynskel]

The axe is still a set modifier, just like banshee mask. The multiple set modifiers roll off for use.

During combat the weapon sets your initiative. Those at I10, pile in at I10; those at I1, pile in at I1. Banshees don't pile in at I5 when charging that first round of combat.

[jcflanker]

The axe is still a set modifier, just like banshee mask. The multiple set modifiers roll off for use.

During combat the weapon sets your initiative. Those at I10, pile in at I10; those at I1, pile in at I1. Banshees don't pile in at I5 when charging that first round of combat.

Whwew is the rule for set modifires and multiple set modifiers?

[Tynskel]

there's a rule for when there are multiple set modifiers.

For example:
Banshee with Power Axes Charges Tyranid Warriors with Lashwhips. The ones in base to base would roll to check their weapons and lash whips, the ones not in base to base would check for just weapons.

[JMichael]

The axe is still a set modifier, just like banshee mask. The multiple set modifiers roll off for use.

During combat the weapon sets your initiative. Those at I10, pile in at I10; those at I1, pile in at I1. Banshees don't pile in at I5 when charging that first round of combat.

Although it has been said several times in this thread. Unwieldy does NOT effect or modify the models initiative in any way. You simply strike AT initiative step 1 with that weapon.

While in most situations the effect may seem the same, it's important to know the difference.

[Tynskel]

I don't particularly care what has been said. What matters is what the book says. You know, just like the bible. It tells me to stone people, no matter how much sense that makes.

What the book says is that you are Initiative 1 during combat. And the pile in moves are made during combat, so that's when you make your move.

[Aramel]

No, pg. 43 reads: "a model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1," which is not the same. It works out exactly as JMichael described. Even if you have I10, with an unwieldy weapon you will only be able to attack at the last initiative step. I suppose you may pile in first, unless that is part of the "step," I'd have to look at that more closely. I thought it was quite an elegant solution to prevent arguments such as these...

[Tynskel]

OMG read the FAQ. That's a SET MODIFIER. Roll off! 1, 2, 3, 4! Left Foot Right Foot!


That's completely redonkulous. You are telling me, the guys at I10 will be too far away to attack, then pile in at I5 so they can then be killed by I1 guys? That's hilariously dumb.

My weapon is too fast for me! I swing before I even get there!

No, the weapon changes your Initiative DURING COMBAT.

[jcflanker]

OMG read the FAQ. That's a SET MODIFIER. Roll off! 1, 2, 3, 4! Left Foot Right Foot!


That's completely redonkulous. You are telling me, the guys at I10 will be too far away to attack, then pile in at I5 so they can then be killed by I1 guys? That's hilariously dumb.

My weapon is too fast for me! I swing before I even get there!

No, the weapon changes your Initiative DURING COMBAT.

which FAQ are you refering to?

[Aramel]

The Necron and Tyranid FAQ each state that whips/coils are no longer overriden by banhee masks as they were in 5th. Instead each player will roll off. The reason given is that they are both set modifiers. However, that has nothing to do with the discussion regarding initiative steps. He could be referencing another FAQ though.