Signum, Signum, Signum

[s_harrington]

Scenario: Devestator Squad had a model with a Lascannon. For whatever reason, he can only fire it as a Snap Shot (Moved, Fired at Flyer, etc).

Snapshot sets his BS to 1.
Signum sets his BS to 5.

FAQs all say if there is two 'Set' Modifiers, roll off a dice each time.


Question: Does my Lascannon Marine has a 50% chance each turn to fire at BS 5 at a Zooming flyer?

[SeattleDV8]

Or you could go by BRB page 9
At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

You could use the Signum's BS 5 in your turn (moving, flyers)
But use the Snap Shots BS in your opponents turn (overwatch)

[Aramel]

Probably not. In order to hit a flyer with a lascannon you must snap fire. In order to Snap fire you must be BS 1. If you modify your BS then it cannot be a snap shot by definition. But if you and your opponent don't agree with that strict reading, by all means, defer to the most important rule!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No, a Signum is an addition, the Hard to Hit special rule is a set modifier and always applies last. :)

[SeattleDV8]

Both the Signum and the Snap Fire are 'set values"

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What's the Signum's specific wording? (I'm at work, no codex)

[SeattleDV8]

SM:Codex pg. 100
A model may use a signum in lieu of making a shooting attack of his own. If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic skill 5 for the remainer of the Shooting Phase.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Intriguing, I thought it was just +1 BS... In that case...... I'd go with a roll-off until it gets confirmed either way via FAQ, I'll ask my contacts at GW some point later on.

[RGilbert26]

No you can't use the SIGNUM to allow you to 'normally' hit a flyer as you can only hit them normally with something that has the Skyfire rule. Granted it makes you BS5 but as shooting at a flyer without Skyfire forces you to Snap shot then it has no effect.

[ElectricPaladin]

Your best bet is to go with missile launchers as your devastator equipment. Flack ammo ftw!

[RGilbert26]

Your best bet is to go with missile launchers as your devastator equipment. Flack ammo ftw!

Which you can not use until a new codex comes out with them available.

As reported in what was said at the Open Day they aren't available yet and you can not use them.

[Aramel]

Redacted.

[Daemonette666]

A character with BS 5 still has to roll a 6 to hit a Flier that is zooming. Zooming drops everyone who does not have the skyfire rule to BS1, so if the signum allows you to increase the models BS , the fliers hard to hit (zoom rule) would drop this again back down to BS1.

Beam weapons should be able to damage fliers, but fliers get a jink roll anyway. Auto hitting, then being able to glance or penetrate easily because of the weapon's strength, would mean you get to hurt the flier if it fails it's save roll. I would just roll a dice on it, and 1-3 you auto hit and hurt it if you penetrate and a jink roll is failed, or 4-6, you still need a 6 to hit the target in the first place, and you go through the process as if the firer shot with a weapon normally. At least until the FAQ comes out.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Zooming fliers can only be targeted with snap shots unless you have Skyfire. Signum gives you BS5 but it doesn't give you Skyfire - so it has no effect against a zooming flyer. It's as simple as that.

[Redwulfe]

Snap fire does not set your BS to 1, it makes your shots fire as if they where 1. This includes anything that would make you snapfire, like over watch or not having sky fire when firing at a zooming flyer. Modifiers still modify and set your BS, but you stil fire as if your BS is 1.

It's like unwieldy, which make you attack at I 1. It does not set your initiative to 1, so you can mod your initiative all you want but you still attack as if you are I 1.

Red

[Chris*ta]

Someone emailed this question to GW and then posted it in another thread:


From GW,

I guess its hardly conclusive not being in an FAQ but its yet another nail in your self righteous coffin.

Quote:
Good Morning James

Thanks for the email about the New Warhammer 40'000 rules. We would be happy to answer your questions about the new Warhammer 40'000 rules, Are you running a Blood Angel army at the moment and what are you running in your list?

1) There has been some debate over what qualifies as a unusual power weapon (or Force weapon). Here are a few examples and I am wondering if they qualify. All have special rules, which by page 61 says they do not go look at the weapon to determine type.

Dante's Axe Mortalis
Glaive Encarmines
Astorath's Executioner's Axe
Relic Blades
Demon Weapons
Ahriman's Black Staff.

All of these weapons do count as Unusual power weapons and are AP3 in close combat, as they all have other rule other than being a power weapon.

2) Does Captain Tycho have an AP Value? Or does he just ignore all armor saves?

Brother Captain Tyco just Ignores all armour saves with the Dead Mans Hand, and rolls a extra D6 for armour penatration. How cool is that?

3) If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged.

4) Can Artillery fire overwatch (assuming the artillery is not blast such as Ork Artillery)

Yes as long as the weapon is not a blast weapon.

Hope that this helps and if you have any other questions please contact us again.[/QUOTE]

I know it's just a mail order troll, and personally, I'm of two minds on the debate, so don't get upset at me for arguing either side.

But from a RAI point of view, I can definitely see an argument for the signum allowing the heavy weapon marine to hit the flyer at BS5, I mean it's an enormous box that makes your dudes better able to shoot, so why not also shooting at flyers?

[Redwulfe]

Not sure if that is really credible. I'm not saying that it is not from GW only that GW has been known to be wrong on many occasions. For example the Chaos SpAce Marine Deamon Prince using vector strike in the latest white dwarf battle report. The FAQ tells us that this is wrong. Of course that could be because they are using the new codex or that they changed the FAQ after the report was set to print. The former would still be a mistake however as they would probably not want to use that codex this early in a report. But I digress.

The point is is that GW is known to be wrong, therefore unless it is in the FAQ, codex or BADAB (bad a$$ dark angels book) I don't feel it should be used for a relevant source to back an argument. That of course is just my opinion.

Red