Black Hydra
07-17-2012, 01:37 PM
Well the title says it all. I'm starting a Chaos force that will have CSM as the star army. But I definitely am going for an Alpha Legion/Word Bearers feel (that Dark Apostle is too damn awesome not to include). So I want to use regular humies to back up my guys. The question remains, who to take? Imperial Guard or Vraksian Renegades?
The pros and cons of the armies are actually more varied than the common player would think, especially after switching over to 6th ed. Now I haven't played against 6th ed yet (Gods I want to get back home!) much less against Guard, but I imagine mech IG aren't at 100% anymore.
Vraksian Renegades, pros & cons:
Pros
- Enforcers are more readily available than Commissars. IG can't take them in Veteran squads but renegades can add Enforcers to their Armoured Fist companies.
- When a unit fails its Morale Test and has an Enforcer, he kills the sarge and the unit auto passes the test. IG have to reroll the test and while it's a small chance, it's still a chance they can fail.
- Taking Alpha Legionnaires as Elites. For a CSM player this has a twofold advantage. These Alpha guys can infiltrate if not in a transport and are basically regular CSM. But since the only other infiltrators in the CSM codex currently being the Chosen and rumors pointing towards no Legion rules, the Alpha guys are cheaper to run and only really compete with Disciples of Xaphan which I think are good but not better.
Cons
- Their psykers suck. At least the vanilla renegades do. While they aren't completely terrible, 2 or 3 of their abilities don't mesh well with them. Such as Warp Fist being a powerfist and yet they hit at WS2. Becoming Possessed actually seems to be better but that won't always happen. It's better to take a Primaris Psyker.
- Lack of Fliers and lack of the ability to take tank squadrons. Will get to that in the IG part.
- Random leadership. This is somewhat mitigated by Vox-casters and Enforcers but even a command squad has random leadership. Not very good since it's the only one of 2 HQ choices you can take.
- Apparently they have no orders available neither.
Unknown Factor
- I don't know if I should take Arkoss the Faithless. He might be better than a command squad and I'd pair him up with the Alpha Legionnaires but I don't think he has Infiltrate which would really suck.
Imperial Guard, pros & cons:
Pros
- Access to really good Fliers. Great for outflanking with Vendettas and great anti-flyer power.
- Can squadron up tanks, so if I have points I can have 2 Leman Russes rather than one, but I don't know how effective they really are due to hullpoints.
- The Primaris Psyker is a great Psyker and counts towards the FOC HQ slot, unlike renegade psykers. They can also take 2 BRB powers instead of the renegades 1 BRB power.
- Lots of melta, especially if I do use IG, I'd use veterans in Chimeras.
- Basilisks: need I say more? (Though renegades can take those, I can squadron these.)
- Having orders.
Cons
- Compared to renegades, the most glaring one is to reroll the Morale Test when your Commi kills the sarge. Also since I'm going with vets, I can't take commissars with them, so I'd have to take a platoon for that.
- Access to cheaper Chosen. While the Alphas aren't the same as Chosen, I'd rather take them. The IG alternative would be Stormtroopers and while I believe they are good too, they'd be a bigger points sink. You don't want that with allies. Also the rest of the IG elites aren't to my liking. (Though I've been thinking about using WFB minotaurs as ogryn. Already have some Beastmen almost completely converted to guardsmen. Hmmm....)
Welp that's all I can really think about right now. As you can see I can't really make up my mind. While IG have some serious vehicle advantages, points-cost and hullpoints really make me reconsider them. Plus I'm only really going to be using vets in chimeras/armoured fist companies. The extra stuff will include the elites and tanks as well as what HQ to get.
Here's an interesting thing I found:
Forgeworld humies: the new FAQ that came out says that all Imperial Guard regiments basically count as regular Imperial Guard for the purposes of allies. Right now IG are only Allies of Convenience with CSM, but the rumored Traitor Guards rule will most likely make them Battle Brothers.
Does this mean that Elysian Drop Troops, Death Korps, and all others will be able to be taken as BB's for CSM?
That one is more food for thought though. The main question remains who is better IG or Renegades as allies for CSM?
Sorry for the long winded post. If you don't want to read it that's fine, but an opinion on the question is appreciated. Thanks for reading if you did!
The pros and cons of the armies are actually more varied than the common player would think, especially after switching over to 6th ed. Now I haven't played against 6th ed yet (Gods I want to get back home!) much less against Guard, but I imagine mech IG aren't at 100% anymore.
Vraksian Renegades, pros & cons:
Pros
- Enforcers are more readily available than Commissars. IG can't take them in Veteran squads but renegades can add Enforcers to their Armoured Fist companies.
- When a unit fails its Morale Test and has an Enforcer, he kills the sarge and the unit auto passes the test. IG have to reroll the test and while it's a small chance, it's still a chance they can fail.
- Taking Alpha Legionnaires as Elites. For a CSM player this has a twofold advantage. These Alpha guys can infiltrate if not in a transport and are basically regular CSM. But since the only other infiltrators in the CSM codex currently being the Chosen and rumors pointing towards no Legion rules, the Alpha guys are cheaper to run and only really compete with Disciples of Xaphan which I think are good but not better.
Cons
- Their psykers suck. At least the vanilla renegades do. While they aren't completely terrible, 2 or 3 of their abilities don't mesh well with them. Such as Warp Fist being a powerfist and yet they hit at WS2. Becoming Possessed actually seems to be better but that won't always happen. It's better to take a Primaris Psyker.
- Lack of Fliers and lack of the ability to take tank squadrons. Will get to that in the IG part.
- Random leadership. This is somewhat mitigated by Vox-casters and Enforcers but even a command squad has random leadership. Not very good since it's the only one of 2 HQ choices you can take.
- Apparently they have no orders available neither.
Unknown Factor
- I don't know if I should take Arkoss the Faithless. He might be better than a command squad and I'd pair him up with the Alpha Legionnaires but I don't think he has Infiltrate which would really suck.
Imperial Guard, pros & cons:
Pros
- Access to really good Fliers. Great for outflanking with Vendettas and great anti-flyer power.
- Can squadron up tanks, so if I have points I can have 2 Leman Russes rather than one, but I don't know how effective they really are due to hullpoints.
- The Primaris Psyker is a great Psyker and counts towards the FOC HQ slot, unlike renegade psykers. They can also take 2 BRB powers instead of the renegades 1 BRB power.
- Lots of melta, especially if I do use IG, I'd use veterans in Chimeras.
- Basilisks: need I say more? (Though renegades can take those, I can squadron these.)
- Having orders.
Cons
- Compared to renegades, the most glaring one is to reroll the Morale Test when your Commi kills the sarge. Also since I'm going with vets, I can't take commissars with them, so I'd have to take a platoon for that.
- Access to cheaper Chosen. While the Alphas aren't the same as Chosen, I'd rather take them. The IG alternative would be Stormtroopers and while I believe they are good too, they'd be a bigger points sink. You don't want that with allies. Also the rest of the IG elites aren't to my liking. (Though I've been thinking about using WFB minotaurs as ogryn. Already have some Beastmen almost completely converted to guardsmen. Hmmm....)
Welp that's all I can really think about right now. As you can see I can't really make up my mind. While IG have some serious vehicle advantages, points-cost and hullpoints really make me reconsider them. Plus I'm only really going to be using vets in chimeras/armoured fist companies. The extra stuff will include the elites and tanks as well as what HQ to get.
Here's an interesting thing I found:
Forgeworld humies: the new FAQ that came out says that all Imperial Guard regiments basically count as regular Imperial Guard for the purposes of allies. Right now IG are only Allies of Convenience with CSM, but the rumored Traitor Guards rule will most likely make them Battle Brothers.
Does this mean that Elysian Drop Troops, Death Korps, and all others will be able to be taken as BB's for CSM?
That one is more food for thought though. The main question remains who is better IG or Renegades as allies for CSM?
Sorry for the long winded post. If you don't want to read it that's fine, but an opinion on the question is appreciated. Thanks for reading if you did!