DE Ravager Aerial Assault vs Hard to Hit

[eldargal]

So, it has been proposed that the wording of the Ravagers aerial assault rule would mean it's snap shots at flyers are at full BS. I'm not convinced, so I'll post it here and see what others think:

Firstly the Aerial Assault rule as erratad by the DE FAQ:

Due to the largely open construction of its decks and the sophisticated targetting matrices used by it's crew, a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of it's weapons using the crews full Ballistic Skill.

Now the Hard to Hit rule for flyers:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule...)

The Snap Shot rule:

If a model is forces to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

So the Ravager shoots the flyer, its shots are snap shots, but owing to the wording of Aerial Assault if it moved at cruising speed it can fire them all at full BS?

The problem with this is the following argument can be made:

Ravager moving at cruising speed may fire all its weapons t full BS.
Snap shot is a special circumstance that overrides this.
The Codex/FAQ does not say it applies to Snap Shots.

What do people think?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'd be tempted to say that the Flyer rule overrides this, negative modifiers are always applied last now.

[alshrive]

i had pondered this previously and came to the conclusion that personally, i think it should be able to. it is a skimmer designed to fit the Dark Eldar style of warfare which is rapid strikes. i think it makes perfect sense to be able to hit flyers pretty well, that said i am not going to be happy when my Doom Scythe takes 3 Dark Lance hits in one turn!

[Melon-neko]

I'd be tempted to say that the Flyer rule overrides this, negative modifiers are always applied last now.

Agreed.

[eldargal]

I guess it boils down to:

BRB say it fires at BS one,
Codex says it fires at full BS
But negative modifiers are applied last so...

Can anyone remember where it sais negative modifiers are applied last? I recall reading something to that effect but I can't find it.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Check the index for modifiers. :)

[Kyban]

It's hard to say either way. It is an "aerial" assault with sophisticated targeting matrices, but flyers are also supposed to only be hit by snap-shot. My thinking is they were just trying to clarify that they don't have to fire snap-shots when moving that fast, but for RAW codex overrides brb. How many weapons does the Ravager have? 3? If so, then it would probably just be clarifying that that last weapon is not fired as a snapshot at cruising speed.


I'd be tempted to say that the Flyer rule overrides this, negative modifiers are always applied last now.
What rule says that? The brb says that modifiers that set the skill come into effect last but I didn't see anything about specifically negative modifiers. It also says you roll off when 2 modifiers that set the skill happen at once...

[eldargal]

I think rolling on it would be the best bet until/if it gets clarified by GW.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I can't remember, I'm at work! xD

I'll try and look tonight.

[Calgar33]

The rule was clearly meant to apply to firing at cruising speed only, if it was meant to go against fliers they would have mentioned fliers or gave it Skyfire.

[eldargal]

Are you sure? Do you know what the designers were thnking when they wrote the FAQ? Did they tell you?:) I'm not being snarky, but judging what a rule was meant to do is incredibly subjective. You could make the argument that it was meant to work on flyers owing to the name (aerial assault) and the background of the particular model etc.

How the rule is written is at least clear, if the actual meaning can be a little vague (as in this example), it is always better to go by what is explicitly written than anything else.

[Fortunato]

The name Aerial Assault is in reference to the Ravager, not its target. E.g. The Ravager makes an aerial assault. Indeed event the rule's target is the Ravager, and has no effect on the Ravager's target. It can easily be resolved.

1) Ravager moves cruising speed, can only snap shot.
2) Aerial assault is applied. Ravager can shoot at normal BS.
3) Select target
4) Target is flyer.
5) Apply non-flyer shooting at flyer rule.
6) Ravager has BS 1, needs 6 to hit.

[Kyban]

The name Aerial Assault is in reference to the Ravager, not its target. E.g. The Ravager makes an aerial assault. Indeed event the rule's target is the Ravager, and has no effect on the Ravager's target. It can easily be resolved.

1) Ravager moves cruising speed, can only snap shot.
2) Aerial assault is applied. Ravager can shoot at normal BS.
3) Select target
4) Target is flyer.
5) Apply non-flyer shooting at flyer rule.
6) Ravager has BS 1, needs 6 to hit.

It would be nice if it were that procedural but that's not how the game works, I agree that they should probably only fire snapshots at flyers but you're inventing steps that aren't in the rules.

[bfmusashi]

I find the idea highly dubious but I don't know how Ravagers work inside their codex. I would apply Is It Rad but Dark Eldar are massive jerks that hate rad. You know that pie you put on the window sill to cool? Dark Eldar took it... and your puppy... and they set fire to your wallet. If I had to, I'd argue they did not get full BS simply because if that was the intent they could have just written 'Ravagers always use their full BS when forced to make Snap Shots.'

[Caldera02]

That rule is meant for them to be able to fire all three weapons when going at cruising speed. You still have to snap fire at flyers.

[Archon Charybdis]

The end point of this interpretation leaves us with a scenario where when moving at combat speed (unaffected by the Aerial Assault rule), a Ravager can only Snap Fire at Flyer units. When moving at Cruising Speed (now under the purview of Aerial Assault), it can fire at full BS. That seems patently absurd.

[Tynskel]

negative modifiers are not applied last.

It is multipliers, additions (remember negative is the same thing as addition with a minus sign), and finally set bonuses.

[SeattleDV8]

Tynskel has it
Also remember that Snap Shot is not a negative modifer, it is a 'set value' ( BS1) which is applied last.

[Aramel]

The rule does say that a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of it's weapons using the crew's full Ballistic Skill. As opposed to every other fast skimmer that can only fire two at full BS. The reason the FAQ mentions BS, is because that is the language used in the vehicle section that explains how many weapons vehicles can fire before being reduced to BS 1.

It seems extremely unlikely that this should be interpreted as "full BS under all circumstances" which would allow it to bypass Hard to Hit. Even under RAW, this is a rule regarding ordinary shooting and Hard to Hit is a "special" rule that takes priority when you resolve hits against a flyer.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No Tynskel, a subtraction is NOT the same as an addition. Gods, there has never been a more incorrect sentence in all of eternity, because of you a thousand mathematicians cried out in pain and were silenced.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

As an addendum, yeah, it displays about modifiers on page 3 so you always apply the Hard to Hit rule last.
(except on Vibro Cannons! Yes Tynskel, I'm looking at you!)

[eldargal]

Right, I knew I read something about set modifiers being applied last. That's that then, Ravager does not get full BS at flyers.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I thought I'd apply a fair and calm opinion, as a contrast to the other posts. :p

[SeattleDV8]

No Tynskel, a subtraction is NOT the same as an addition. Gods, there has never been a more incorrect sentence in all of eternity, because of you a thousand mathematicians cried out in pain and were silenced.

Wow, are you really that ...... never mind.

Addition and subtraction are the same basic action as far as a mathematician is concerned.
Subtraction is the 'adding' of a negative number.
Yes , I know Tynskel can be annoying but please don't spout nonsense, it just makes you look like more of a fool.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think I got a bite. :p

Suddenly, BODMAS! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations)

[Kyban]

Right, I knew I read something about set modifiers being applied last. That's that then, Ravager does not get full BS at flyers.

It would then be up to whether you consider aerial assault to be a set modifier or not.:p

[Belial69]

Aerial Assault isn't a modifier. It's a rule that allows the model to ignore the negative modifier that gets applied for moving at cruising speed.

[Kyban]

Aerial Assault isn't a modifier. It's a rule that allows the model to ignore the negative modifier that gets applied for moving at cruising speed.

Yeah, that's how it should have been worded but as is it says you fire at users full BS. RAW, it is setting BS to that of the user (probably 4). I doubt anyone will use it to ignore the hard to hit rule though.