Unwieldy and pile ins

[drupif]

Pg. 23 of the 6th ed rule book states:
"At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move. A Pile in move is 3" move..."

Unwieldy (pg. 43) states:
"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or Walker."

This would seem to indicate that a space marine with a power fist would consolidate in at I4, but still not strike until Initiative step 1.

Is this how others understand it?

Also, the Grey Knight Force Halberd gives you +2 Initiative, making a normal GK I6, but still striking at Initiative step 1. This is due to the fact that Unwieldy does not reduce I, but rather forces you to strike at a different Initiative step?

Correct?

[Tynskel]

you use the modified initiative unless otherwise stated.

[presto15]

The space marine with a powerfist would move and strike in the initiative 1 step as this is his new modified Initiative for the assault phase.

The Grey knights nemesis force weapons have additional rules that are not covered by the rulebook. This makes the nemesis force weapon an "unusual force weapon" as outlined on page 60. this means they are AP 3 but gain the +2 initiative bonus and does NOT follow the rules for a force axe.

[DarkLink]

Does no one read the Unusual Weapon rules? It seems like literally every other thread is someone who either hasn't read them, or doesn't seem to understand them. And even when they do, they don't seem to have read the FAQs which answer most of the questions that are left over.


Also, read the rules on modifiers. It's multipliers, then addition/subtraction, then set values, so set values like unwieldy trump all.

[Tynskel]

Does no one read the Unusual Weapon rules? It seems like literally every other thread is someone who either hasn't read them, or doesn't seem to understand them. And even when they do, they don't seem to have read the FAQs which answer most of the questions that are left over.


Also, read the rules on modifiers. It's multipliers, then addition/subtraction, then set values, so set values like unwieldy trump all.

hahahahah
I agree!
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435

[drupif]

I've read the rule. However, the unwieldy rule does not modify your initiative. It simply states you strike at initiative step 1. Pile in states you move in at your initiative value. Since that value has not been altered by an unwieldy weapon, where (please cite page and paragraph) does it state that you would do so at I1?

Darklink, I did not see in the FAQ or unusual weapons how my question is answered. FAQ only speaks of reduced initiative values and unusual weapons say it is ap3 and follows the rules in the codex. Nowhere, does the FAQ address the initiative step you strike at. Seeing how the rulebook clearly makes a distinction between a model's initiative and initiative step (see my original post), i fail to see how this is an ignorant question. Please show me where the FAQ or the rule you cite answers my question.

Instead, I'm hoping to get someone to reasonably walk through actual rules they have found to come to a conclusion to this.

[Thiazi]

the wording of unwielding sounds like it only effects the models initiative for attacking. So the model would pile in during its normal initiative.

[drupif]

That is what I was thinking. The new Initiative Step says models step in at their I. Thank you for actually considering the question and making a reasoned response.

I truly don't care what the answer is, so long as I get it right. 6th has new rules, such as this, that add layers of abstraction.

[Melon-neko]

That is what I was thinking. The new Initiative Step says models step in at their I. Thank you for actually considering the question and making a reasoned response.

I truly don't care what the answer is, so long as I get it right. 6th has new rules, such as this, that add layers of abstraction.

Getting it right, is however your group likes since there is really no way to win the debate I don't think. Unwieldy does read strangely I agree and can easily be argued either way.

At least, I could not find any clarification. However, I believe the intent is that you pile in at the initiative step you are actually performing your strikes at. That is how I will play it because it makes the most sense to me, but based on how unwieldy is worded it might not be the intent.

Piling in power fists before I1 can lead to your opponent removing casualties from around him and dieing him strikes, where as if he piles in at I1 it is harder to do so, and I have already played in that edition >.>

[xilton]

I believe the pile in rule is quite clear about this. You make your attacks at the same init step you are moving. Obviously, a powerfist will have init step 1. Unwieldy states you attack at step one. Therefore, you also pile in at that step at the same time as powerfists, hammers ect... The init steps in an assault are always at your attack "I", not your profile "I". This includes the pile in move. Same reason GK with halberds will attack at step 6 and not step 4 (profile).

The steps are pile in then attack with what can attack, change init step and so on until you finished all steps from 10 to 1.

If you have the following:
2 GK /w halberd
5 GK /w swords
1 BA /w PF
5 BA /w swords
1 BA /w unwieldy weapon

The order will be
init step 6: 2 gk /w halberds pile in and make their attacks if they are within distance

init step 4: 5 BA and 5 GK pile in and make their attacks if they are within distance and still alive

Init step 1: BA /w PF and BA/w unwieldy pile in and make their attacks if they are within distance and still alive

[DarkLink]

Darklink, I did not see in the FAQ or unusual weapons how my question is answered. FAQ only speaks of reduced initiative values and unusual weapons say it is ap3 and follows the rules in the codex. Nowhere, does the FAQ address the initiative step you strike at. Seeing how the rulebook clearly makes a distinction between a model's initiative and initiative step (see my original post), i fail to see how this is an ignorant question. Please show me where the FAQ or the rule you cite answers my question.


Grey Knight Nemesis Force Halberds are not unwieldy, as per both the GK FAQ and the Unusual Force Weapon rules. I'll quote them.


Unusual Force Weapons
Many models have unusual Force weapons that have one
or more unique rules. If a Force weapon has its own unique
close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the
additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.


Page 54 – Nemesis Force Weapons, Force Weapons.
Change the first sentence to read “Unless otherwise stated, all
Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons, as detailed in
the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.”

The rules for modifiers on pg 2 specify that you multiply first, then add/subtract, then use set values. Thus, if Halberds were Unwieldy (which they aren't), you would add +2I, but then strike at a set value of I1.

Here's the quote:


Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example,if a model with Strength 4 has both '+1 Strength' and 'double Strength', its final Strength is 9 (4x2=8, 8+l =9). If a model with Strength 4 has both '+1 Strength' and'strength 8', its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).


As to which Initiative step you pile in at, read the rules for Initiative Step on pg 22-23. Starting at I10 and working down, you pile in 3" at the step equal to the model's Initiative. Since Halberds strike at I6, the model's initiative step is still just I4, assuming that they're normally I4. Unwieldy, on the other hand, specifies that you go to Initiative Step 1, so you pile in then.



At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative
is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't
already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile
In move. A Pile In move is a 3" move that is performed in the
following order:

Edit: correction regarding unwieldy's Initiative step.

[xilton]

Dark, you sure. I read the BRB again and I understand that you move at profile init BUT, when you attack, you still attack at the same step you have moved when you go over all the rules placed in different places. lol. So this leads me to say, you pile move then attack, then next step. It makes more sense that a GK with halberd has a chance to pile in before he can make his attacks. Based on what you are saying, they will make there attacks (step I6) then move in (step I4) which doesn't make sense. An attack move should never occur before a pile in move. The whole purpose of pile in is to maximize your attacks. In which case, following your statement, it's not doing this for the halberd.I understand what you are saying but this makes the cc even more time consuming then it is also. I believe the steps are all at modified Init and it does make more sense (halberd example) and simplifies the assault. We all do it here, modified init all the way. Nothing states to use the characteristic init like they mention here and there meaning for us that you use his battle init. It does make more sense don't you think.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, that part's a little unclear. They don't really define exactly what initiative steps are precisely and how they relate to when you actually strike very well.

[xilton]

I'll never understand how they can write rules and say they are clear at the quantity of FAQs they make.

[Gloomfang]

Pity the poor Banshees. They have a 50% chance of hitting at I10 on the charge. If they fail they hit at I1. If they hit a Lash Whip or Whip Coil on the charge they have to make anouther 50% roll to see if they keep the I10.