Dreadknight troubles.

[Dawgofwagh]

Played my 2nd 6th edition game yesterday and it was bad. I took 1500 pts of Space Wolves - short list: thunderwolf wolf lord with a power weapon and SS, 3 TWs all SS and 1 TH, 2 squads of 5 LFs all with ML, 2 Squads of GH with MG, PG, PP, PF and 2 HB Razorbacks, and finally a Ven Dread with TL LasCan and TL AutoCan. We had two teams of 2 armies and I was paired up with an Ork player. We ended up going second and on turn one and the other team teleported 2 Dreadknights right on top of my LFs. He Proceeded to hose each squad down with whatever gun gives you the Heavy 12 shots, after that each squad was again struck with whatever template weapon that allows you to use it 6 inches away from the barrel. For the next 4 TURNS I poured fire into the Dreadknights, effectively tieing up my ENTIRE army trying to get them out of my in field. I sent in my TWs on turn 1, "My dreadknight is int 5." fine. He has a sword that allows rerolls on hits/wounds. Huh? He hits at Str 10. What?!! You have failed 2 saves so that is insta-kills on the TWs. F***!!!! Now let me say that I know this guy and I don't think he is really trying t cheat me, but WTF?!! Everywhere I read they say that DKs are fragile, I beg to differ! Hiis 600pts tied up my 1500pts almost the whole game. I lost 3/4 of my army to his fire and assualt. I will admit that I did roll poorly, but really? Is he playing these guys right? Because if so, I'll flip!

[ragnarcissist]

easy. plasma, las-cannons, and TH/PF! oh and more plasma!!

[Kyban]

Sounds like everything was right there, you may just have had bad luck. Anti-tank weapons is the way to take them down, melta, plasma, and lascannons should eat through them pretty quickly but they are pretty beastly, more so this edition. It's essentially a T6 termy with 4 wounds that packs a heck of a punch IIRC.

[Mr Mystery]

Shoot them to death. Quality or quantity, it'll drop just the same.

Other than that, if you must engage it in HTH, do so with the hidden powerfirst in a unit. It wails on small elite units, but bog the bugger down with Bloodclaws, and it's arse is yours! It doesn't have the attacks to kill you all, and with the weight of attacks you get, combined with a couple of fists (or better, Hammers to knack it's I) and it'll drop like a sack of spuds!

[Dawgofwagh]

I DID! He made his 2+ armour/5+ Inv save almost everytime. I shot him over and over with meta/plasma/plama from my GHs! I lost my TH tunderwolf to his insta death Int5 before it could be used. I sent at least 2 Krak missiles at them EACH round. Nothing fazed these guys! My question is are the DKs really this powerful?

[Mr Mystery]

Just bad luck on your behalf there fellla.

[Dawgofwagh]

Also shot with my Dread, both guns, two rounds and again, 5+ INV saves the day! By the end of round 4 when the last DK fell, I was left with crimson fist and grey knights sitting there waiting on me as they had mopped up the Orks with no problem.

[Dawgofwagh]

I seem to have moved a little from my question into a rant on the game. Please allow me to restate: Does the DK in fact have the abilities to teleport around 24 inches, hit at INT5, hit at Str10, carry 2 weapons that either have 12 shots or an 18 inch template, INV 5+/arm 2+ AND 4 Wounds? Really?

[Kyban]

The teleporter makes him move like a Jump MC and allows one 30" move per game, after which he can't assault.

I think he has to halve his attacks for str 10 though or not use the sword, not sure.

[Mr Mystery]

I seem to have moved a little from my question into a rant on the game. Please allow me to restate: Does the DK in fact have the abilities to teleport around 24 inches, hit at INT5, hit at Str10, carry 2 weapons that either have 12 shots or an 18 inch template, INV 5+/arm 2+ AND 4 Wounds? Really?

Jump Pack with knobs on? Yes.
St10 - Yes (Nemesis Doomfist)
12 shots? Yuparoo
18inch Template? No he's cheating. It's the standard Flame template, but can be fired up to 18" away.

[Dawgofwagh]

Sorry! Just remembered that my WL did get to hit before the DK so he had to be INT4.

[isotope99]

It can theoretically charge 24" but you'd have to roll double 6, it's initiative 4 not 5 (WS5), you can't use the sword AND S10 (max S7 w/ Hammerhand) and it costs 295 points fully loaded like that so you'd expect bloodthirster like power at that price.

AP2 shooting and rending hits from the Twolves should have put them down, sounds like your opponent was lucky with his 5++ saves.

[Mr Mystery]

The kit out he had comes in pretty hefty....295 points hefty.....

[Dawgofwagh]

Does his Doomfistsill hit at INT4? And if so, how does he get to reroll, hits, misses, wounds? Maybe I'm confused but like I said, whoever says these guys are fragile should have been with us yesterday. My wolves spent the ENTIRE game trying to kill 2 Dreadknights.

[Kyban]

Does his Doomfistsill hit at INT4? And if so, how does he get to reroll, hits, misses, wounds? Maybe I'm confused but like I said, whoever says these guys are fragile should have been with us yesterday. My wolves spent the ENTIRE game trying to kill 2 Dreadknights.

IIRC he can strike with the sword with 1/2 attacks at str10 for the rerolls or use the fist at I4 and str10 without rerolls.

[Mr Mystery]

Doomfist is a Dreanought Close Combat weapon, of which it has two. One can be upgraded to the Sword, which allows re-roll hits, wounds and armour penetration. This upgrade to my knowledge does not drop the strength....

He remains I4 at all times.

How many points was the game again? Because two like the ones you described would be 590 points between them....

[Dawgofwagh]

But he can't do both?

[Dawgofwagh]

1500 points. He did complain about how expesive they were, but he certainly got his points out of them.

[Dawgofwagh]

I didn't get to attack anything else of his except the DK, but I think he also had an Inquisitor and retenue, a squad of purifiers and I think another squad of regular Gks.

[Kyban]

1500 points. He did complain about how expesive they were, but he certainly got his points out of them.

They are really expensive, which is why they generally dropped for Psyflemen in 5th, but they got a bit of a boost in 6th and psyflemen got a small nerf. They are MCs with special weapons, in CC they are definitely going to do some damage.

[Kawauso]

He has a sword that allows rerolls on hits/wounds. Huh? He hits at Str 10. What?!!

He can't use both at the same time.
S10 means he's using the doomfists in CC, which would mean he can't use the sword.
So he has to choose between S10 or re-rolls on hits/wounds/armour pen.

Dreadknights are tough, but really, just treat them like a tank, and they'll go down accordingly.

They're also a crapload of points if you give them any upgrades, which is something GK have to watch very carefully.

So, a potentially tough unit, yes, but nothing that should be ruining your day consistently. Play more against them and I'm sure you'll do fine.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm really not sure that's correct.

Any chance you could refer me to the page ref in the rulebook? Not come across that one before, and it sounds useful to know!

[DarkLink]

Under the close combat rules it specifically states you cannot use the effects of two weapons at once, which trumps the generic 'model rerolls to hit and to wound' wording that the sword has. If you went by just the GK codex, you could reroll at str 10, but since the rulebook specifies you can't use two weapons at once, you can't.

And, no, the Greatsword doesn't also double strength. The doomfist is a DCCW, but the Greatsword isn't so it's only str 6.



Dreadknights are a mere 4 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable. A couple of plasma guns have a good chance of killing it.

[Dawgofwagh]

Well I guess I just chalk up yesterday to the fact that Russ wasn't ith us. I shot it 8 times with meltas, 14 times with Plasma guns, not sure but at least 10 times with Plasma pistols and uncountable bolter shots. My Long fangs bite it from the first wound of 24 cannon shots and two template weapons. One time was all I got with the Lascannon/Autocannon before the DK swallowed my dread whole. Plus the rending hits from my only TW (as my WL had a Power weapon thus no rending for him). He rolled great and the Emperor turned his gaze from me, because I couldn't roll to kill those things.

[Mr Mystery]

Under the close combat rules it specifically states you cannot use the effects of two weapons at once, which trumps the generic 'model rerolls to hit and to wound' wording that the sword has. If you went by just the GK codex, you could reroll at str 10, but since the rulebook specifies you can't use two weapons at once, you can't.

And, no, the Greatsword doesn't also double strength. The doomfist is a DCCW, but the Greatsword isn't so it's only str 6.



Dreadknights are a mere 4 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable. A couple of plasma guns have a good chance of killing it.

Ah fair enough! Thank's for clearing that one up!

[Sam]

The Dreadknight is I4, not I5. It can teleport once per game up to 30" and become a Jump Monstrous Creature with a fairly expensive upgrade. The template can fire up to 12" out, not 18. Also, the 12 shot gun is pretty terrible for the price.

[DarkLink]

Lascannons and plasma kill the Dreadknight. If you're facing one, your job is to avoid it assaulting you while you take wounds off with heavy weapons, and kill it before it reaches assault. Alternatively, give it a sacrificial unit to kill, then assault it with THSS Terminators.

If you're playing a Dreadknight, your job is to hold it back and keep it alive until the opportune moment to pounce arrives. Avoid plasma/melta/lascannons and take shots at range, until you see a target of opportunity and then go after it.

[Kyban]

He can smash with the sword, he only loses one attack to attack with the sword at str10.

[DarkLink]

Two lost attacks, actually. One of the other weapon changes means that the Dreadknight always get the bonus attack for 2CCW, even if he can't use the rerolls from the sword and str 10 from the doomfist at the same time. So the Dreadknight always has 4 attacks base.

4 attacks at str 10 is better than 2 attacks at str 10 with rerolls. The sword is only beneficial against infantry where you only need str 6.

[Kyban]

He still has 3 attacks on his profile which is what is halved then rounded to 2 before adding any bonus attacks, I'd drop 1 attack for rerolls.

[JMichael]

Im not a Grey Knight player...but doesn't using the 're-rolls' granted by the Nemesis Greatsword only apply to attacks made by the sword (and thus at normal Str and not Str 10)?

I have Eldar Scorpion swords that add +1 Str, but since it's the sword that grants it only if I use the sword do I get the +1 Str (and not if I use the Scorpions Claw/Power Fist).

[Dalleron]

Were the DK's doomfists not FAQ'd to make him S6, not S10?

In 6th, he "smash" to make himself S10. I don't know where it says that his Greatsword cannot affect those smash attacks.

[DarkLink]

He still has 3 attacks on his profile which is what is halved then rounded to 2 before adding any bonus attacks, I'd drop 1 attack for rerolls.

Dreadknights always get a bonus attack for 2 CCW under 6th ed rules. That's 4 attacks, whether you use the sword or fist, divided down to 2.



Im not a Grey Knight player...but doesn't using the 're-rolls' granted by the Nemesis Greatsword only apply to attacks made by the sword (and thus at normal Str and not Str 10)?


Under 6th ed rules, you are correct. The wording in the GK codex isn't clear, but the rulebook is.


Were the DK's doomfists not FAQ'd to make him S6, not S10?

We're playing 6th, not 5th.

In 5th, DCCW only doubled the strength of walkers. That was the precise wording used. GW didn't realize this until the players caught it, and instead of errata'ing it they just said 'oops, yeah, it's str 6'.

In 6th, they not only specifically removed that ruling from the FAQ, but they changed the wording of the DCCW to simple 2xStr, regardless of unit type.

Dreadknights are str 10 with the Doomfist.



In 6th, he "smash" to make himself S10. I don't know where it says that his Greatsword cannot affect those smash attacks.

The Greatsword can affect smash attacks, but only if you're using the sword. Thus, you have to Smash, which means you have to halve your attacks. If you just use the Doomfist, you get your full attacks at str 10, and the extra couple of attacks are better than the rerolls basically always.

[Kyban]

Dreadknights always get a bonus attack for 2 CCW under 6th ed rules. That's 4 attacks, whether you use the sword or fist, divided down to 2.

Yeah, but the attacks are halved before you add the attack for 2 CCWs, so you only lose 1 attack.:D

[xilton]

Doomfist is a Dreanought Close Combat weapon, of which it has two. One can be upgraded to the Sword, which allows re-roll hits, wounds and armour penetration. This upgrade to my knowledge does not drop the strength....
them....

The fact the sword gives or not re-rolls on the fist has been discussed in another thread. Some say it can, others say it can't. The dilemma is solely based on the fact that the sword mentions to "have it" and not to "use it" which to be honest, is "non-sense playing" with the rules again from competitive gamers. Most of us think this will be FAQed to apply the BRB rule of "you must choose which weapon you use when attacking" which will mean that NO, you can't use re-rolls with the fist when you buy the sword. Is paying 25pts to get re-rolls when you already hit 3+, wound 2+ (generally) really worth it on an already pricy model. You be the judge.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, but the attacks are halved before you add the attack for 2 CCWs, so you only lose 1 attack.:D

Uhhh... that.... doesn't make sense.

If you Smash, you halve down to 2 attacks. If you don't Smash, you get your full 4 attacks. 4-2=2 lost attacks.

Plus, you don't halve your attacks before the 2CCW bonus. You're halving from 4 attacks, not from 3. And if you charge, you're halving from 5, down to 2.5, up to 3. And incidentally, 5-3 also happens to equal 2 lost attacks.;)

[Kyban]

Uhhh... that.... doesn't make sense.

If you Smash, you halve down to 2 attacks. If you don't Smash, you get your full 4 attacks. 4-2=2 lost attacks.

Plus, you don't halve your attacks before the 2CCW bonus. You're halving from 4 attacks, not from 3. And if you charge, you're halving from 5, down to 2.5, up to 3. And incidentally, 5-3 also happens to equal 2 lost attacks.;)

Read the rules! :p

It halves their attacks characteristic, so it takes what you have on your profile and halves it then you get the modifiers. Also, multipliers happen before additions, either way you look at it you only lose 1 attak. ;)

[DarkLink]

I guess it does specify characteristic. You still can't do math, though. "Either way you look at it", you're going from either 5 or 4 attacks down to 2. That's either 2 or 3 lost attacks, depending on if you charged or not. Your claim that you only lose one attack is nonsensical.

[xilton]

I believe kyban is partially correct. The smash rule does mention that only it's characteristic attacks are halved. so charge and dual cc weapons are added after. Characteristic being the key word here.

So in our example, it would be 5 attacks halved rounded up = 3 attacks. It comes down to 4 attacks for kyban if 3/2 +1 the charge and +1 for dual cc weapons in this example but I guess we could hit a few examples where we could gain or lose an attack. Lets say a MC model (base att 3) with rage (do we have any?) base attacks 3 +2 on the charge giving 5 attacks halved down = 3 attacks. If we use kyban's theory, we get 3/2 + 2 for assault +1 for dual cc = 5 attacks. 5 vs 3 attacks is a big difference making bash way stronger then it looks.

Now I agree that the assault bonus should not be in the total but should the dual CC weapon bonus? I would believe so. Since we usually add this to the characteristic attacks, I would believe the smash attack is between dark and kyban. Meaning that you use kyban's theory BUT, add equipment modifiers like dual cc weapon before halving and then add assault modifiers. Unsure about this one though. Is the dual cc +1 part of the characteristic value?

So in the NDK example, we would have 3 base attacks +1 dual cc /2 +1 for assault making 3 attacks

In my other example, 3 base attacks + 1 dual cc /2 +2 for rage on assault making 4 attacks

The 2 examples are assuming that dual cc weapons +1 bonus should be part of the characteristic value.

[Kyban]

I guess it does specify characteristic. You still can't do math, though. "Either way you look at it", you're going from either 5 or 4 attacks down to 2. That's either 2 or 3 lost attacks, depending on if you charged or not. Your claim that you only lose one attack is nonsensical.

You're still not understanding me. :rolleyes:
I'm saying it's applied this way:
3 attacks characteristics
Divide by half: 2 attacks
2 CCW bonus: 3 attacks
Charge bonus: 4 attacks

If you smash you get 4 on the charge, 5 if you don't smash. :D

You halve it before any other modifiers, the 2 CCW bonus is not part of the attack characteristic.