Vehicles in 6th

[velox atrum]

I have now played 3 games and watched a few others. The new rules seem made vehicles far less survivable at least the most common ones.

Vehicles I have used.

Land Speeder Typhoon (100pts) Died from 2 glances from bolter fire

Rhino, Died from 1 pen and 2 glance

Vindicator Died from glances.

Extra armor now nearly useless as glances will prob kill you before you can recover from shaken anyway.

Have not played my Guard yet, but I expect Sentinels are going to be meat on the table for all comers. If russes still get lumbering behemoth it will be better but I feel they will now have to snap fire the other weapons, true more shots but the lascannon now is pretty poor choice compared to 5th Battle cannon + Lascannon at BS3 compared to Battle cannon + Lascannon at BS-1and possible heavy bolters at BS-1. The poor heavy stubber went from BS-3 to BS-1 also, maybe it will get skyfire in next codex but I doubt it.

My standard Hellhound lost ground too d by the change in def weapons , no more move 6 fire inferno and heavy bolter and heavy stubber at BS3, now we just flail blindy at BS1 even though the target is on FIRE amd being hit with heavy bolter rounds.

Any one assaulting a russ almost needn't roll dice really AV 10 even lowly frag grenades will do the job.


* extra special dumb rule... Vehicles can't snap fire in own defense but embarked troops can ... guess the elephants at kursk really did not need the mg-42's after all they could not have defended from infantry attacks anyway.

* Chariots.... really ... guess the feral ork list will be back out now...

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Chariots... Arent as silly as you make out. Whats the Necron Catacomb command barge? Also, Russes shouldn't get Skyfire, as then they wouldnt be able to shoot anything else, they'd need Interceptors too... But in general they shouldnt get either of those rules :).

Read Double Eagle, even an Exterminator with Quad auto-cannons can barely take out flyers :).

[velox atrum]

My meaning was that heavy stubber (the old pintle rule ) could have skyfire as it is meant to be light anti-aircraft

as for command barge, how about an open topped vehicle with a weapon skill ah la Walkers

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Oh ok, I like that idea... But it'd still be hard for a guy to track planes! (however it makes sense)

Well, it literally is a chariot, with necrons pedalling (I say that... Because it looks like that :D) instead of horses. So it's not really silly... I mean, it could get silly of which it probably will.

[SotonShades]

If russes still get lumbering behemoth it will be better but I feel they will now have to snap fire the other weapons, true more shots but the lascannon now is pretty poor choice compared to 5th Battle cannon + Lascannon at BS3 compared to Battle cannon + Lascannon at BS-1and possible heavy bolters at BS-1.

I would imagine you can fire the Turret wepon at full BS in addition to the other weapons (although it doesn't mention anything about lumbering behemouth in the FAQ. Hopefully that will be rectified soon).

They can slo move flat out now, so if you are sacrificing shooting for a turn to get them into a better position (or to get away from assaulting enemies) at least they have a decent chance of getting a decent distance, even if they can only got 6+D6" before going flat out.

[Mr Mystery]

Just need to adapt to the new rules. Tanks can now back up infantry quite nicely, granting mutual protection. Guard your side armour and rear.

[velox atrum]

I would imagine you can fire the Turret wepon at full BS in addition to the other weapons (although it doesn't mention anything about lumbering behemouth in the FAQ. Hopefully that will be rectified soon).

They can slo move flat out now, so if you are sacrificing shooting for a turn to get them into a better position (or to get away from assaulting enemies) at least they have a decent chance of getting a decent distance, even if they can only got 6+D6" before going flat out.


Since lumbering behemouth is not faq'ed its restrictions still apply... Codex overrides Main book so flat out for a russ would be 6(base) + D6 (cruise) +6 Flatout

And as L-B states "can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance !) " If it moves at all its Battle Cannon at BS-3 (can never snap fire) and snap fire other weapons as per pg 71 of book.

Russ neutered a bit but since its now Fantasy-40k its sort of expected.

[velox atrum]

Just need to adapt to the new rules. Tanks can now back up infantry quite nicely, granting mutual protection. Guard your side armour and rear.

All charges against vehicles are on back armor, so unless you want to have a unit of guardsmen no more than 1 inch apart completely around a tank infantry can move hit it in close combat.

[Mr Mystery]

All charges against vehicles are on back armor, so unless you want to have a unit of guardsmen no more than 1 inch apart completely around a tank infantry can move hit it in close combat.

The added fire power of the squad presents additional threat, and you don't need to surround the tank, just present a wall of troops who can intervene, making it far harder to engage the vehicle at all. And if the enemy fails their charge? It's Dakka o'clock next turn.

[velox atrum]

The added fire power of the squad presents additional threat, and you don't need to surround the tank, just present a wall of troops who can intervene, making it far harder to engage the vehicle at all. And if the enemy fails their charge? It's Dakka o'clock next turn.

With a cover save from the Tanks fire. I understand that Fantasy-40k will take some adapting too :)

I fogot in my missive that the plasma gun/plasma cannon options on vehicles just became semi-suicidal too.

[Mr Mystery]

With a cover save from the Tanks fire. I understand that Fantasy-40k will take some adapting too :)

I fogot in my missive that the plasma gun/plasma cannon options on vehicles just became semi-suicidal too.

You seem determined to look upon the negatives. Yes tanks take a bit more thought to use now, but it's not insurmountable. And with a Guard army, and all that firepower why are highly dangerous assault units getting anywhere near you unmolested? Plan your deployment well, and drag them over the coals and into the jaws of your army.

[Iyandagar]

I run a clutch of armies. Orks, Eldar, SoB and Chaos Marines. So far in 6th I have finished a few games with the Orks, flyers happily still buzzing round the table shooting the snot out of anything they clap eyes on. Sure they get hit a couple times but so far in the majority they have held in there. My Looted wagons get targeted early on, with that in mind I pretty much accept my vehicles are going to get minced and play my army accordingly. I like to "show a bit of leg" as it were with the vehicle to draw fire and attention from my horde. These I boot it across the table pronto like until my opponent suddenly realises the bigger threat is the tide of green (and some grey) that are closing rapidly on his units. That and I don't really get attached to anything on the battlefield, it is all meat and metal to get the job done.

The days of just spending mental points on a fully mech army are waning, as a round of massed fire is most likely going to put some of those tin cans out of commission. knowing that, you just have to tailor your army to suit accordingly.

That said, I love my Exorcists... I almost feel pain when they go boom....

My Fire Prism on the other hand, never winds up doing anything significant before going pop... Lifespan of various vehicles in my games are something of an inside joke...

[bfmusashi]

The LR Executioner is still a beast though. That's a triple plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, and your opponent will devote their resources to ending it. I've circled it with squads before to give it a cover save and keep Heroic Intervention off it and she's let the rest of my army have free reign. Shoot, with cammo netting and an Aegis Line you've a pretty solid little castle many armies fear. You can do the same with a LRBT but the bait's not as sweet.
If you're feeling super defensive you can stick Coteaz nearby with a shooty henchmen squad to kill anything arriving from reserves or a Grey Knight Strike Squad with Warp Quake up.

[cobra6]

TBH I'm finding my Rhinos to still be very useful. Now they keep moving almost constantly until they either blow up or get glanced to death, dropping off troops, blocking LoS, impeding enemy movement, etc for 2, 3, or even 4 turns.

I played a game against IG yesterday with BA's; Russes may have a few new vulnerabilities but let me tell you those battle cannons are ferocious in 6th Ed! Even when they scattered offcenter, with full strength armor pen on most SM vehicles they were penetrating Rhinos and Dreds with almost every shot.

[velox atrum]

You seem determined to look upon the negatives. Yes tanks take a bit more thought to use now, but it's not insurmountable. And with a Guard army, and all that firepower why are highly dangerous assault units getting anywhere near you unmolested? Plan your deployment well, and drag them over the coals and into the jaws of your army.

Well I guess its my "narrative" that not much was improved in 6th, I am trying to find positives but as for vehicles I just have not seen much there.

In effect the Russ was downgraded.

Defensive weapons can NOT be used to defend the vehicles against charges

Glancing hits now are as deadly (or nearly so) as penetrating hits

Plan deployment well, in a game that is all about capture the flag (objectives) that will truly be a challenge.

The closest thing to a positive for ground vehicles is that they can move and fire wildly at BS-1 a lot (althoh getting all weapons on a target will be just as difficult as ever) Aircraft (the models that not many already have and therefore need to buy) were treated much better, need 6's to hit, can fire all weapons at BS while moving. Can "Shoot" in movement phase (bombs) it reminds me of AeroTech a bit.

I see tanks not moving much, as side armor will make then die REAL FAST, and just becoming fire platforms that bang away in hopes of getting there points back before they are glanced to death.

[Turner]

Stop, just please stop.


www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=19786

"A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!)."



You can move 6" and normally fire one weapon at regular BS and snap everything else. With Lumbering you can fire the turret weapon inaddition to any other weapons it is usually allowed to fire. So normally you can... Fire one weapon at regular BS and snap fire the rest so now you can, fire one weapon and the turret weapon at regular BS and snap fire the rest.

[velox atrum]

"That's a triple plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, and your opponent will devote their resources to ending it"

Correct, but plasma cannons on side of Russ still get hot (assuming any one used them)

[velox atrum]

Thanks Turner that is what I had concluded also, so a Russ now has no advantage over any other vehicle that has ordnance.

[Mr Mystery]

"That's a triple plasma cannon that doesn't get hot, and your opponent will devote their resources to ending it"

Correct, but plasma cannons on side of Russ still get hot (assuming any one used them)

On a one, and then only does a hull point in 50% of cases......well worth the destructive capability and overall resilience yes?

[velox atrum]

On a one, and then only does a hull point in 50% of cases......well worth the destructive capability and overall resilience yes?

true only a 50% chance of hull hit

http://www.edcollins.com/backgammon/diceprob.htm (this is also great for understanding snap shots)

Firing 2 Plasma cannons fist turn 30.56 of a gets hot - 15.28% hull hit
Firing 2 Plasma cannons 2ndst turn 51.77 of a 1 hull hit - 25.88% hull hit
Firing 2 Plasma cannons 3rd turn 66.51 of 1 hull hit - 33.25% hull hit

And can not snap fire, bolters for me I think.

[Kyban]

After rolling a 1 vehicles roll another d6 and only take it on a 1-3 IIRC.

[velox atrum]

Thanks on the 50% looked it up and edited post to show same.

[Mr Mystery]

true only a 50% chance of hull hit

http://www.edcollins.com/backgammon/diceprob.htm (this is also great for understanding snap shots)

Firing 2 Plasma cannons fist turn 30.56 of a gets hot - 15.28% hull hit
Firing 2 Plasma cannons 2ndst turn 51.77 of a 1 hull hit - 25.88% hull hit
Firing 2 Plasma cannons 3rd turn 66.51 of 1 hull hit - 33.25% hull hit

And can not snap fire, bolters for me I think.

Nope. It remains 1 in 6 every time you fire. They don't accumulate as every roll is a fresh one, with no result taken away due to having been previously rolled. Thus every shot is 1 in 6 to over heat, with a 1 in 2 chance of doing a hull point, or overall one in every twelve shots. You'd have to roll spectactularly badly to do more damage to yourself than the opponent. So over an entire game, and assuming both fire every turn that's what, an 8.33% recurring chance of knocking off one of your own hull points? That's nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[velox atrum]

Nope. It remains 1 in 6 every time you fire. They don't accumulate as every roll is a fresh one, with no result taken away due to having been previously rolled. Thus every shot is 1 in 6 to over heat, with a 1 in 2 chance of doing a hull point, or overall one in every twelve shots. You'd have to roll spectactularly badly to do more damage to yourself than the opponent. So over an entire game, and assuming both fire every turn that's what, an 8.33% recurring chance of knocking off one of your own hull points? That's nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Yes it is 1/6 per shot. (or 1/12 chance of hull hit)

The stats I put are CUMULATIVE I am not saying there is a higher chance on the 3rd turn of a "gets hot" , but that after 3rd turn of Firing 2 Plasma cannons 66.51 of having rolled at least 1 gets hot and a hit - 33.25% hull hit

[Mr Mystery]

Yes it is 1/6 per shot. (or 1/12 chance of hull hit)

The stats I put are CUMULATIVE I am not saying there is a higher chance on the 3rd turn of a "gets hot" , but that after 3rd turn of Firing 2 Plasma cannons 66.51 of having rolled at least 1 gets hot and a hit - 33.25% hull hit

Again....no. The chances do not go up like that, as every roll is a new event. EVERY time you roll those dice, the chance of a one followed by a hull point are exactly the same as the last time

There is nothing to say that rolling a D6 6 times will come up with one of each possible result. To get those sort of results, you would have to roll thousands of dice thousands of times. Which is highly unlikely. Even if we gathered together every Leman Russ Executioner ever sold and equipped with plasma sponsons and used them in a single game, it still wouldn't be enough to roll the average.

Indeed your working may apply if you took all 12 shots over a 6 turn game at exactly the same time. But you're not. You're taking them one at a time, perhaps two at a time in many cases. So the chance of a hull point overheat remains constant. Well. Constant until one of them gets blown off by incoming fire and you can't fire it anymore until the Techpriest gets out his Holy Meccano and works his mojo...

[velox atrum]

Again....no. The chances do not go up like that, as every roll is a new event. EVERY time you roll those dice, the chance of a one followed by a hull point are exactly the same as the last time

There is nothing to say that rolling a D6 6 times will come up with one of each possible result. To get those sort of results, you would have to roll thousands of dice thousands of times. Which is highly unlikely. Even if we gathered together every Leman Russ Executioner ever sold and equipped with plasma sponsons and used them in a single game, it still wouldn't be enough to roll the average.

Indeed your working may apply if you took all 12 shots over a 6 turn game at exactly the same time. But you're not. You're taking them one at a time, perhaps two at a time in many cases. So the chance of a hull point overheat remains constant. Well. Constant until one of them gets blown off by incoming fire and you can't fire it anymore until the Techpriest gets out his Holy Meccano and works his mojo...

Please see Link.

http://www.edcollins.com/backgammon/diceprob.htm

And no it does not matter if you roll 1 dice per day over 6 days or 6 dice all at once the odds of rolling an single number( in this case a 1) on one the dice rolled does not change.

[Kyban]

Velox is correct, assuming his math is right :p, the percentages add up if you're looking at it over three turns. The chances of losing a hull point over three turns is greater than over one turn (you're firing the weapon more times) but from one turn to the next the probability will be the same.

[Mr Mystery]

Why? The rolls aren't linked and no affect on each other. Therefore every time a single cannon is fired, it's a 1 in 12 chance, or 8.33% (never did work out why the US uses percentage instead of fractions) chance of a hull point.

Now granted it's been 16 years since I studied maths, but the fact remains. You are no more or less likely to get the result on the first roll than the millionth.

The trouble with the percentages, and accumulating the results, is that sooner or later it will predict a 100% (or greater) chance which we know isn't the case. In this, every twelve shots should, according the above working, result in 1 hull point sustained out of 2 overheats...

[velox atrum]

Why? The rolls aren't linked and no affect on each other. Therefore every time a single cannon is fired, it's a 1 in 12 chance, or 8.33% (never did work out why the US uses percentage instead of fractions) chance of a hull point.

Now granted it's been 16 years since I studied maths, but the fact remains. You are no more or less likely to get the result on the first roll than the millionth.

Nor did I claim that the millionth roll had better chance that the 42nd roll but the odds of having NOT rolled a 1 on the millionth roll are darn slim.

As to why the USA uses % not fractions.. has to due with preferring to use base 10 at all times and the heavy use of Electronic Devices to aid (or replace ;) ) math skills.

[Kyban]

Why? The rolls aren't linked and no affect on each other. Therefore every time a single cannon is fired, it's a 1 in 12 chance, or 8.33% (never did work out why the US uses percentage instead of fractions) chance of a hull point.

Now granted it's been 16 years since I studied maths, but the fact remains. You are no more or less likely to get the result on the first roll than the millionth.

Right, but if you ask how likely it is that you will fail one of those 8.33% chances over three turns they add up. It's like rolling them at the same time when you look at them that way. If I roll 3 dice and ask how likely it is that I get a 1 it doesn't matter whether I roll them all at once or one per turn, the odds are still the same for rolling a 1 with one of those 3 dice.

[Mr Mystery]

Nor did I claim that the millionth roll had better chance that the 42nd roll but the odds of having NOT rolled a 1 on the millionth roll are darn slim.

As to why the USA uses % not fractions.. has to due with preferring to use base 10 at all times and the heavy use of Electronic Devices to aid (or replace ;) ) math skills.

I think I was editing whilst you were posting in reference to the difficulties of percentages of fractions.

[DarkLink]

has to due with preferring to use base 10 at all times and the heavy use of Electronic Devices to aid (or replace ) math skills.

Ironically, not only do most quality calculators by default return fractions rather than percentages, but if you ever get a degree in engineering or something like that then the only time you'll use a calculator will be to solve problems that would take hours by hand, or might even be effectively impossible by hand. The rest of the time, it's common for calculators to be banned.

[velox atrum]

and some use RPN but most of us are not Adeptes of HP ;) and end up using good old 2's compliment algebraic devices :cool:

[darkfluid]

Right, but if you ask how likely it is that you will fail one of those 8.33% chances over three turns they add up. It's like rolling them at the same time when you look at them that way. If I roll 3 dice and ask how likely it is that I get a 1 it doesn't matter whether I roll them all at once or one per turn, the odds are still the same for rolling a 1 with one of those 3 dice.

Wrong, as you progress through the game, the rolls that have already occurred become a chance of 100% (they are known), which keeps it at a constant 8.33%. What you are running into is commonly known as "The Gambler's Fallacy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

Edit:

Just reread carefully, what you are saying is true, from the start of the game, although they don't add up exactly, I did very rough calculation using 1/12 as the likelyhood over 5 turns with three shots per turn and came up with a 72.9% chance of a 1 being rolled.

(1-((11/12)^15))/1

But as you play the game, with each progressive turn the chances actually become LOWER that you will roll a one before the end of the game.