Stormraven as air-superiority fighter

[CrimsonTurkey]

I tried out a Stormraven with a twin-linked heavy bolter, twin-linked assault cannon, hurricane bolters, and psybolt ammunition the other day as an air superiority fighter, and I must say, this is a fun toy.

4 S6 Rending, 3 S6, and 6 or 12 S5 shots, all at BS4 with a re-roll to hit. Hull points simply disappear. Granted, I was up against AV 10/11 dark eldar flyers, but it was still very effective. My raven took down two voidravens before it started gunning for light/medium infantry.

Mathammer:
AV10 over 12": 2.96 pen/1.92 glance
AV10 under 12": 3.84 pen/2.81 glance

AV11 over 12": 1.04 pen/1.93 glance
AV11 under 12": 1.04 pen/2.82 glance

AV12: 0.59 pen/ 0.44 glance

I didn't factor in missiles, as I play Grey Knights and our missiles are a joke. Blood Angels would certainly have the option of firing missile instead of using the hurricane bolters when presented with Valks and other StormRavens.

Granted, mind strikes have gotten a lot better against certain opponents, since perils doesn't get a save anymore. Fire off all four to insta-gib hive tyrants.

[Thanatos_elNyx]

I really feel that Flyers should have been categorised into Interceptors and Bombers/Transports.

The Bombers/Transports shouldn't have the Skyfire rules, so while they can have a ton of guns, they would only be hitting the fast interceptors on 6s.
These guys would also be described as Heavy, so they can 'only' move 18" a turn, but are still super fast compared to ground vehicles

Interceptors would have Skyfire on all the time, so they can shoot other flyers on natural BS, but if they have to they can shoot at ground targets with Snap Fire.

But I digress.

SR were awesome and remain so.

[Bean]

Storm ravens were awesome and still are--their air superiority role will certainly make them eve more so.

However they're like expensive children's toys compared to vendettas. You get two vendettas for the price of one dakka raven, and they'll just chuckle to themselves as they off-handedly ruin it before going on to trounce the rest of your army. These, not those piddly de and necron flyers should be your concern, and there a multimelta is much better.

[DarkLink]

The thought of facing a Vendetta/Valkyrie spam army, or a Necron army with tons of flyers, is literally the only time in all the years I've played 40k where I have decided I would refuse to play my opponent, period. Flyers are stupid.

[Bean]

Yeah, they needed across-the-board price (and, in the case of the Valk/Vendetta) availability changes with sixth to account for the massive, unmitigated buff the rules gave them. Vendettas were already way underpriced compared to every comparable option. To give them such a huge boost in terms of core mechanics without changing their price at all was...a huge error. It really bugs me. Storm Raven probably could have used a price jump, too, but at least it's kinda close to being fair. Vendetta isn't even in the right ballpark.

[DarkLink]

The Storm Raven's all right. It's already extremely expensive, before it was just plain overpriced, and most armies should have enough firepower to bring down a single flyer with a little luck. You can't spam Storm Ravens. They're a solid choice, but the movement limitations on flyers and the price of the unit is enough to balance them out.

I'll just laugh when the 9 Vendetta d********g comes up against a Green Tide list.

[Iceman]

I'm not sure I agree. All you need to take care of a Vendetta is a quad-cannon. Four S7 attacks with rerolls has a good chance of inflicting the two hullpoint hits you need to take it down in one turn. Not to mention a few Space Marine squads with missile launchers shooting flakk missiles. Flyers merely add another dimension to your thought process as you put together your army list.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'm not sure I agree. All you need to take care of a Vendetta is a quad-cannon. Four S7 attacks with rerolls has a good chance of inflicting the two hullpoint hits you need to take it down in one turn. Not to mention a few Space Marine squads with missile launchers shooting flakk missiles.Nothing has Flakk missiles yet, and remember, the Quad-cannon can be destroyed (T7, 2 wounds, 3+ save, or mounted on a Bastion of some sort). Quad-cannons on defense lines will fold pretty much instantly to Vendettas, and Bastions aren't that safe either (although better dealt with by other Guard options).

[Chris Copeland]

The thought of facing a Vendetta/Valkyrie spam army, or a Necron army with tons of flyers, is literally the only time in all the years I've played 40k where I have decided I would refuse to play my opponent, period. Flyers are stupid.

I've heard the following said to many a player who complained about Gray Knights: "Get better. Adapt you tactics. Use better strategies."

:p

[Bean]

Nothing has Flakk missiles yet, and remember, the Quad-cannon can be destroyed (T7, 2 wounds, 3+ save, or mounted on a Bastion of some sort). Quad-cannons on defense lines will fold pretty much instantly to Vendettas, and Bastions aren't that safe either (although better dealt with by other Guard options).

This, basically. The Aegis defense line is certainly good, but its quad cannon is not realistically going to pose much of a threat to a Vendetta. The Bastion doesn't really do any better.

Foot squads with Flakk missiles will almost certainly end up being one of the best answers, but they don't exist yet.




I've heard the following said to many a player who complained about Gray Knights: "Get better. Adapt you tactics. Use better strategies."


I get what you're saying, but I honestly think that flyers, as they exist right now, and with particular emphasis placed on the Vendetta (and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Valkyrie) are notably more broken than Grey Knights are (or ever were, frankly). It's a tough comparison to quantify, and I'm not really interested in trying, but that's my opinion.

[DarkLink]

Grey Knights don't require you to hit the entire army on 6's, aren't immune to assaults, aren't immune to anti-infantry, aren't immune to all sorts of things. GKs have plenty of weaknesses, you just need to learn to exploit them. People seemed to refuse to do so, and suffered for it.

Learning to roll 6's really well isn't much of a strategy, though.


Four S7 attacks with rerolls has a good chance of inflicting the two hullpoint hits you need to take it down in one turn.

No, the odds aren't good. And you get one whole gun. And they can kill your stuff manning the gun. And they can take 9 Vendettas. Good luck with that.

[Bean]

Learning to roll 6's really well isn't much of a strategy, though.


Actually, I imagine that learning to roll 6's really well would be one of the best strategies for almost any situation. I think most people would consider it cheating, though...



No, the odds aren't good. And you get one whole gun. And they can kill your stuff manning the gun. And they can take 9 Vendettas. Good luck with that.

And the Vendettas get to shoot the gun before it gets to shoot first (unless they're being run by an idiot.) Since they're more likely to kill then gun than the gun is to kill them...well, it's not really hard to pick who's favored in that matchup.

[DarkLink]

Actually, I imagine that learning to roll 6's really well would be one of the best strategies for almost any situation.


Hmmm, I amend my previous statement then.

[plawolf]

I really think GW should have made damn sure they added skyfire to at least one medium strength, medium range unit in every codex so people would have an answer to flyers or at least massively restrict the numbers and availability of the Valk/Vend, at least until you get to 2k.

But, GW wanted to sell as many flier kits as they could, so they just left them brokenly powerful with no effective counter unless you have fliers of your own, so they get to sell even more flyer kits.

However, all I would say to the guy who would buy 9 valk/vend is, enjoy them in the short time you can, because chances are GW will close that loophole in a few months when enough people have complained to them about it, and suddenly either all those flyers suddenly won't be that amazing, or cost a hell of a lot more point wise, or simply won't be legal in lists in such numbers.

That is always the risk you run when you play extreme lists like that. You might get some extreme advantages for a while, but chances are, you will suffer some extreme real world losses when GW do a 360 and post a new FAQ or do a new codex.

[SaganGree]

I didn't factor in missiles, as I play Grey Knights and our missiles are a joke. Blood Angels would certainly have the option of firing missile instead of using the hurricane bolters when presented with Valks and other StormRavens.

Granted, mind strikes have gotten a lot better against certain opponents, since perils doesn't get a save anymore. Fire off all four (Note: you can only fire two missiles a turn now) to insta-gib hive tyrants.



I have to disagree that the GK SR is in any way underpowered... specifically because it can and will snipe casters out with NO SAVE WHAT SO EVER!

As per the FAQ:

Q: How do you work out whether a psyker is affected by the Psi-shock special rule on a mindstrike missile or a psyk-out bomb?
A: Any psyker under the template will be effected by Psi-shock.

With no invul saves applying now, librarians, Primaris Psykers, and Warlocks are just toast... no look out Sir! No nothing...

So saying that Mindstrike Missiles are worthless is a load of crock!

[Tynskel]

The Storm Raven's all right. It's already extremely expensive, before it was just plain overpriced, and most armies should have enough firepower to bring down a single flyer with a little luck. You can't spam Storm Ravens. They're a solid choice, but the movement limitations on flyers and the price of the unit is enough to balance them out.

I'll just laugh when the 9 Vendetta d********g comes up against a Green Tide list.

Orks? Dude, Orks will eat Vendettas for lunch. The Lootas never ever had so many fun targets to shoot!

Don't forget, either, that Dakkajets will eat Vendattas for lunch, as well.

[DarkLink]

That's exactly what I'm saying. And they don't care about those 18 TL lascannons, either, not in the least bit.

[Tynskel]

That's exactly what I'm saying. And they don't care about those 18 TL lascannons, either, not in the least bit.

Oh,
I thought you had meant that you didn't play the guy because he was being cheesy.

Troll Fail. :(

Personally, I bet that a combination of Vultures, vendettas, and Valkyries are pretty good. The Valks n' Vultures can put out enough ground pounding firepower to offset the light firepower Vendettas, while the vendettas shoot down flyers.

[Bean]

Orks? Dude, Orks will eat Vendettas for lunch. The Lootas never ever had so many fun targets to shoot!

Don't forget, either, that Dakkajets will eat Vendattas for lunch, as well.

Foot orks are actually pretty reasonable against vendettas. As you note, Lootas are good--and, of course, the lascannons are a bit wasted on foot orks.

Dakkajets, though, cry rivers and die when faced with Vendettas. Vendettas are so, so much better at killing dakkajets than dakkajets are at killing vendettas that there is hardly a comparison to be made.

But yes, as you note, it's more important now to take a mix--some vendettas to keep flyers down and pop the occasional tank and some valks to do work on the big foot squads.

[DarkLink]

Troll Fail. :(


:p

[thecactusman17]

Dakkajets with Fighta Ace can do fairly well vs Vendettas, actually, and it's all thanks to the twon-linked guns and Waagh turn. See, on turn 2/3 you point each Dakkajet at the nearest squadron and declare Waagh,then unleash 18 twin linked BS3 S7 shots against an armor 12 squadron. They may not all instantly die, but you will do massive trauma and destroy several. then you throw in any other Ork shooting units with decent strength, which hit nearly twice as well as most other units thanks to their high rate of fire weapons and already terrible ballistic skill being nearly unaffected.

Stormravens honestly aren't the worst things on the table. Necrons have a nasty counter (guess what happens to his HQ unit when everything else is in a dedicated transport? Guess what happens if their are no enemy models on the board after turn one?). Imperial Guard are truly aggravating now due to the fact that they NEVER have a weakness after the Vendettas pick the extra troops up on turn 2. They can shoot tons of anti-tank, anti-infantry (heavy bolter sponsons and hover mode!), and carry scoring units. Dark Eldar are even stronger plexiglass than they were if you take either jet with lances.

Every codex without a flyer, especially Tyranids, is now boned vs. all flyers.

[Lucian Kain]

Or you could loose with dignity,and congratulate your friend on thier ability to blow you off the field.
What would you do to reduce your loss is a better approach instead of packing a wammy about it.
You are one of the brighter sparks out there.
The battle of the wallet is part of the deal with this hobby if your competitive.Would you begin to look at FW now?

[Learn2Eel]

I want to run three of these in my Grey Knights at 2000.

Two Inquisitors, three terminators units, three storm ravens, three dreadnoughts.

I avoid outright cheesiness by giving the Dreadnoughts' assault cannons, heavy flamers and both special ammunition types. Psycannons and Incinerators for everybody! The Inquisitors are your Ordo Xenos variety with rad and psychotroke grenades. And, with the removal of defensive weapons, my Storm Ravens have hurricane bolters with psybolt :D

[Vashtek]

I want to run three of these in my Grey Knights at 2000.

Two Inquisitors, three terminators units, three storm ravens, three dreadnoughts.

I avoid outright cheesiness by giving the Dreadnoughts' assault cannons, heavy flamers and both special ammunition types. Psycannons and Incinerators for everybody! The Inquisitors are your Ordo Xenos variety with rad and psychotroke grenades. And, with the removal of defensive weapons, my Storm Ravens have hurricane bolters with psybolt :D

I presume you are putting all your terminators in the ravens and the ravens are carrying the dreadnoughts? If so, you will lose every game you play without you or your opponent firing a shot.

[droozy]

I presume you are putting all your terminators in the ravens and the ravens are carrying the dreadnoughts? If so, you will lose every game you play without you or your opponent firing a shot.


Can you explain this to me? I assume you mean because only 50%(rounded up) of your army can be in reserve. But all units that must start in reserve and all units embarked on units that must start in reserve don't count towards that total. Page 124 of the rulebook explains this. If I'm missing something please let me know.

[G00dySmiley]

I presume you are putting all your terminators in the ravens and the ravens are carrying the dreadnoughts? If so, you will lose every game you play without you or your opponent firing a shot.

i see on 124 where units in dedicated transports can, but i honestly don't know if a storm aven can be theri dedicated transport, otherwise half of what can start on the table has to start on the table... now ally orks or somethign for cheap troops and throw down 2 units of gretching for 40 points each, a cheapo hq liek a weird boy for 55, a kannon for 20, and a single rokkit buggie for 35... and you are legal with a 150 point ally that is actually pretty good... sub the rokkit buggie for a dakka jet if you want but then you need another thing on the table for cheap not sure what best here btu 120 point 3x meganobs on defense would be cool... sub the weirdboy for a warboss in mea armor and you have 3 troops to score and keep stuff in the backfield and legitimize your tactic

[Learn2Eel]

Huh, this must have been when 6th Edition first came out. I actually probably intended for the Terminators to start on the board and the Dreadnoughts to be in the Storm Ravens, but who knows.

[Magpie]

Yes units that start embarked on a flyer don't count for the number of units in reserve, the only problem is that at the end of turn 1 you won't have any units on the table which is an auto win for your opponent.

[droozy]

Yes units that start embarked on a flyer don't count for the number of units in reserve, the only problem is that at the end of turn 1 you won't have any units on the table which is an auto win for your opponent.

Are you assuming they won't get anything out of reserves?

[Bitrider]

Yes units that start embarked on a flyer don't count for the number of units in reserve, the only problem is that at the end of turn 1 you won't have any units on the table which is an auto win for your opponent.

How is this an auto-win?

[Nabterayl]

How is this an auto-win?
As page 122 says, "if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." There are still some armies that can have a true null deployment, but unless you have a way to get at least one model on the table by the end of turn 1, you lose.

[Cadian122]

The thought of facing a Vendetta/Valkyrie spam army, or a Necron army with tons of flyers, is literally the only time in all the years I've played 40k where I have decided I would refuse to play my opponent, period. Flyers are stupid.

funnily enough, I've smashed a Vendetta/Valkyrie spam army every time I've played one - just kill all the ground troops

[Finnegan]

I can understand DarkLink's attitude towards flyers, there are some armies where it's possible to abuse their advantages.

The main problem is not with AV 10-12 single flyer (or even three flyers taken as three separate choices), but with two or more full squadrons of, let's name it, Vendettas/Valkyries with their AV12, considerable firepower and relatively low point cost.

I hope that GW will fix this problem in next IG Codex (i.e. nerf them :p)

With my friends we're going to try one (or both) of the houserules:

1) Non-supersonic flyer cannot skyfire against supersonic one (Valkyrie will have option to take equivalent of flakk missiles). That would still make Vendetta excellent tankhunter (like Apache Attack Helicopter) but forces IG to field Avengers, Lightnings and Thunderbolts or to rely on ground AA (Hydras, Quad Gun etc.) to counter enemy supersonic fighters.

2) Make possible to assault non-supersonic flyers with Jump Infantry to make such situations viable: http://assets.vg247.com/current//2010/08/valkyrie_v02.jpg :)
(yes, it's another boost for Supersonic flyers but now this rule is more like nerf, it gives you no benefits).

In this situation IG could still field 9 Vendettas, but they won't be answer for everything and the enemy would have more ways to counter them.

Of course these are houserules and won't eliminate problem with Valkyrie/Vendetta spam in official games.