Infiltration

[Melon-neko]

Just wanted some other opinions on this since there is contention in my playgroup ^_^

Under Infiltration, (pg 38) It says "A Unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn."

So the question is, does this refer to the first turn, or that players first turn.

IE, If I am the second player, is it possible for me to charge on my first turn, since it is not THE first turn?

Same thing for scouts

Thanks

[Wildeybeast]

See page 9. 'Turn' always refers to a player's turn unless it explicitly states 'game turn'. Neither player using infiltrators can charge with them on their first turn.

[Melon-neko]

See page 9. 'Turn' always refers to a player's turn unless it explicitly states 'game turn'. Neither player using infiltrators can charge with them on their first turn.


You just contradicted yourself though. The first turn, would not be the second players first turn, that would be the second turn of the game.

If infiltration said "A unit that deploys using infiltration cannot charge on THEIR first turn" there would be no question, but it says THE first turn, which is the first players first turn, not the second players first turn. =\

[thecactusman17]

"First Turn" is being used in this case to denote that for EACH PLAYER'S FIRST TURN, they may not assault. In the same way that "Second Turn" does not allow player 2 to start rolling for reserves on turn one.

[Melon-neko]

"First Turn" is being used in this case to denote that for EACH PLAYER'S FIRST TURN, they may not assault. In the same way that "Second Turn" does not allow player 2 to start rolling for reserves on turn one.

No, reserves specifically says "Your turn two" not just "turn two"


The issue I have, is that I feel infiltration is a liability for assault units if you are the second player. It would be better to just deploy them normally so that they have a chance to charge opponents that move forward in their movement phase and are not going to suffer 2 rounds of shooting at closer to rapid fire range, nor get assaulted.

I understand why the first player cannot charge if they infiltrate or assault, but by the second players turn the first player has had a turn to react to the scouts and infiltrators, shoot them and/or charge them.

[thecactusman17]

Yes. You can shoot them as normal. Glad we cleared that up.

[zenjah]

Yes. You can shoot them as normal. Glad we cleared that up.

There was no question about whether you can shoot with Infiltrators. This thread is about charging on the second player turn with Infiltrators and Scouts.


Pg.9 on Turns:
"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."


Pg.38 on Infiltrate:
"A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn."

Therefore a unit that deploys using Infiltrate cannot charge in the first player turn.

It could be argued that the second player's first turn is not the first player turn.

Why didn't they specify that Infiltrators cannot charge during the first game turn, as mentioned on page 9, if that is how the rule is meant to work?

[thecactusman17]

Except that first turn and second turn only ever refer to game turn-a in, "on the first turn of the game."

And my last response was sarcasm. GW has always attempted to minimize the opportunities to assault on turn one. On the rare occasions it could occur, it was highly unlikely and generally required that your opponent made an exceptional blunder during deployment, s well as a bit of fudging on the measurement. A few units could actually pull it of, but they needed a good deal of luck or a very heft points investment to do so.

So if they are saying that on turn one you cannot assault, it is because they don't want you to assault before game turn 2. Which is in keeping with their general aim to reduce assault unit superiority in this edition.

[PhoenixFlame]

Which is in keeping with their general aim to reduce assault unit superiority in this edition. (emphasis mine)
The fact that you can employ such a sentence means your local meta must be staggeringly different that mine.
Local to me assulty lists make up a quarter or less of the total lists and aren't disproportionately represented among the top tier in tournaments either.


@OP, it sounds to me like another case of GW failing to be as explicit as they should have been. With a book this large it's not shocking a few things slipped through the cracks.
My sense is that they intend to prevent all first game turn assaults but RAW doesn't seem to provide a conclusive answer currently. [And I'll skip elaborating on my thoughts regarding GW deciding to push the game even more deeply into gun line territory this edition :rolleyes: ]

[Wildeybeast]

You just contradicted yourself though. The first turn, would not be the second players first turn, that would be the second turn of the game.

If infiltration said "A unit that deploys using infiltration cannot charge on THEIR first turn" there would be no question, but it says THE first turn, which is the first players first turn, not the second players first turn. =\



No, reserves specifically says "Your turn two" not just "turn two"


The issue I have, is that I feel infiltration is a liability for assault units if you are the second player. It would be better to just deploy them normally so that they have a chance to charge opponents that move forward in their movement phase and are not going to suffer 2 rounds of shooting at closer to rapid fire range, nor get assaulted.

I understand why the first player cannot charge if they infiltrate or assault, but by the second players turn the first player has had a turn to react to the scouts and infiltrators, shoot them and/or charge them.

Good point. In this case then, RAW is very clear. Player 1 may not assault since the first turn is his, player 2 may assault as it is only their first turn, not the first turn. Player 2 has to suffer getting their infiltrators all shot up, but can charge with them which seems like a fair trade off and probably what was intended.

[Bean]

I have to agree with Wildeybeast and Melon, here. The first turn is the first player's first turn. The second player's first turn is not the first turn--it's the second turn. End of story, really.

[Lerra]

What sort of units would be able to assault on turn one, anyway? I'm having a hard time thinking of any bikes or cavalry that come with infiltrate.

[Bean]

What sort of units would be able to assault on turn one, anyway? I'm having a hard time thinking of any bikes or cavalry that come with infiltrate.

There are some things that can give other things infiltrate, so you occasionally end up with Assault Marines, for instance, with Infiltrate. Also, maximum possible charge range is 18" even for basic infantry, now, so you know. It's not out of the question.

[energongoodie]

What sort of units would be able to assault on turn one, anyway? I'm having a hard time thinking of any bikes or cavalry that come with infiltrate.

Shrike and whichever unit he joins.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

Marine scout bikes with Power Fisted sergeant

[Tynskel]

What sort of units would be able to assault on turn one, anyway? I'm having a hard time thinking of any bikes or cavalry that come with infiltrate.

Genestealers.

If you place them 12" away, they come out 6", and they have a re-rollable 2D6" charge (fleet).

[dwez]

New FAQ has a precedent that should cover this as it's the same terminology but in reference to Scout.


Q: The rulebook states "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment
cannot charge in the first turn." Does this mean that if your
opponent has the first turn and you go second, your Scouting unit
can charge? (p41)
A: Yes.

Therefore when it says inthe Infiltrate rule:


"A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn."

It must effectively mean that if your opponent has the first turn and you go second, your Infiltrating unit can charge!