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CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
09-28-2009, 06:19 AM
Was milling around on bolter and chainsword this morning and came across a post that stated "there will not be another Dark Angel Codex for another six years (2015).Has anyone else herd this nonsense ?

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
09-28-2009, 06:33 AM
Before everyone goes crazy on me, I agree there are other codexes that need updating-Nids,Wolves,Dark Eldar,and Necron, just to name a few.But what really pissed me off is that the post went on to say that the Dark Angel Codex was a test codex for all 5th Ed. codexes.So,they basically knew that all following codexes would be better than Dark Angel and there would be a whole new addition in a year or two.From what I read sixth Ed. will be out in 9 years.So I'm supposed to wait 6 years for a competitive codex,buy it and all the crap that comes with it and in two or three years go back to getting pounded by all the new sixth Ed. codexs that my Dex help to develop.

Dosadi
09-28-2009, 06:53 AM
What makes this “un-true” is that GW doesn’t even know what they are going to be doing in 6 years. They make long term plans, but a lot can change in even a short span of time. Anyone who tells you what is or what isn’t coming out a year from now is lying. Or its wild speculation, and if they don’t tell you it’s speculation then it is a lie.

To answer your question more directly; I’ve heard that both the BA and DA codices have been worked on to bring them more in line with the standards of C:SM. Blood Angels will be the next codex after Tyranids I’m almost positive on this (but again, its outside the six month window so call it an educated guess). I would speculate that this means Codex: Blood Angles will be out in April-May. So that doesn’t help you with Dark Angels, but rest assured the person who told you “no DA until 2015” is full of bovine excrement.

Oh, and 6th Edition is far closer than nine years...;)


Dosadi

Lerra
09-28-2009, 11:39 AM
I don't know anything about the rumors, but its true that the Dark Angel codex was used as a test codex for C: SM.

In fact, the original "alpha test" for dark angels later became the foundation for C: SM.

Kanaellars
09-28-2009, 12:41 PM
Before everyone goes crazy on me, I agree there are other codexes that need updating-Nids,Wolves,Dark Eldar,and Necron, just to name a few.But what really pissed me off is that the post went on to say that the Dark Angel Codex was a test codex for all 5th Ed. codexes.So,they basically knew that all following codexes would be better than Dark Angel and there would be a whole new addition in a year or two.From what I read sixth Ed. will be out in 9 years.So I'm supposed to wait 6 years for a competitive codex,buy it and all the crap that comes with it and in two or three years go back to getting pounded by all the new sixth Ed. codexs that my Dex help to develop.


GOD I hope so.

That still puts you getting a new codex in 3 LESS years than we Wolves had to wait.

It would feel SO good seeing the boot on the other foot finally.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
09-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Thanks Lerra,That is the other thing I wanted to find out about.I'm glad that my $25 for the codex and $200 for building an army were used to make all following codexes better than my own.So,basically they sold me a turd that they knew would only be competitive for a year and a half and then get pounded at every turn,when 5th Ed. came out.When people ask me,that don't know the Dark Angels,what makes them special ? I tell them we pay more for just about everything and have 1/3 less to choose from. I know that people will bring up scoring land speeders to that I say big deal 10 shoota boys can shoot it to pieces in a turn. Veteran squads,which are no match for sternguard,Deathwing which are great if you want to reenact Custers last stand and ravenwing which you can make with the regular codex by putting a captain on a bike.They have taken everything that was special about the dark angels and handed out to other chapters and races and at a lower price.

Grabnutz
09-28-2009, 01:41 PM
Well maybe the Fly Lords will beat GW to it (and do a better job to boot)?

clkeagle
09-28-2009, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing a BoLS 'dex for the Dark Angels. But to be honest, I think our best hope for a new Dark Angel army list lies with Forgeworld. I thought of several reasons why this may be preferable.

1. Warwick Kinrade is a well-known fan of our first legion. They already gave us love with the Mortis Dreadnought, and two Unforgiven chapters featured prominently in the Vraks trilogy.
2. Forgeworld stated yesterday that they intend to step publication up to 4 books per year-ish.
3. The GW model range is nearly complete for the Dark Angels. Forgeworld would only have to do a few special characters and units, like Belial, an Inquisitor-Chaplain in Terminator Armor, Deathwing and Ravenwing command squads, and refresh the army list.
4. Forgeworld has now proven that, although their army lists are far from perfect, they are more than willing to update their unit entries as the GW studio produces new rules.

I know it's just wishful thinking on my part. But every so often, wishful rumors end up being seen by the right people to make things happen. So I'll go completely wild here and suggest this for Imperial Armor 9 or 10 or whatever is next... A planet where five Fallen Dark Angels have gathered and are starting a cult against the Imperial command. The PDF must fight against a Renegade Fallen Cult, requiring assistance from the Dark Angels and the Adeptus Arbites. The book could have an updated DA list, an Arbites allies list with new troop and vehicle models (since GW doesn't look like they'll ever get around to doing plastic Stormtroopers), some new love for the Imperial Guard via PDF units, some cult units, and a Fallen character or two.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
09-28-2009, 08:53 PM
Well maybe the Fly Lords will beat GW to it (and do a better job to boot)?

I hope thats the case Grabnutz,I have found that people that do things for the love of the game (rather than dollar signs) produce a far better product than the goons at greed-workshop 99% of the time.The only problem is that I wouldn't be able to use them in a tournament.

MetalStorm4786
09-29-2009, 09:57 AM
I really hope BA don't get the next update after Nids. I'm hoping its either Dark Eldar or Necrons. C:SM is not that old and SW JUST got updated, give the MEQ's a rest for a couple of codices.

I know BA have been using a WD codex, they technically just got a new codex with C:SM.

All I'm saying is show some love to the decade old Codices.

DarkLink
09-30-2009, 02:05 PM
Dark Eldar, Necrons and Daemonhunters need new codecies (everyone always forgets about us Grey knights:( ). As a Grey Knight player, I so don't feel sorry for Dark Angel players if they don't get a new codex for a while:p.

Duke
09-30-2009, 02:58 PM
I really hope BA don't get the next update after Nids. I'm hoping its either Dark Eldar or Necrons. C:SM is not that old and SW JUST got updated, give the MEQ's a rest for a couple of codices.

I know BA have been using a WD codex, they technically just got a new codex with C:SM.

All I'm saying is show some love to the decade old Codices.

I can see your argument for DE and 'Crons but Im going to have to take issue with this... (obviously because I have a vested interest...)

Right now the 'Crons and DE actually have standalone codecies, BA do not. Sure, DE and 'Crons are outdated and are well deserved in getting in the lineup sooner. But Blood Angels don't even have a standalone codex at all! Can I tell you how irritating it is to have to carry around a binder because you can't get a legit book? Its embarrassing... I would rather have an outdated standalone codex than a WD article any day. So, with that I can't wait to see C: BA hit the shelves. Sorry DE and 'Cron players, feel free to wipe your tears with the paper from your actual standalone codex. ;)

Duke

P.S. By standalone I mean a dedicated codex that stands alone without any additional information/ garbage courtesy of two White Dwarf magazines.

ShadowDeth
10-05-2009, 03:02 PM
I can see your argument for DE and 'Crons but Im going to have to take issue with this... (obviously because I have a vested interest...)

Right now the 'Crons and DE actually have standalone codecies, BA do not. Sure, DE and 'Crons are outdated and are well deserved in getting in the lineup sooner. But Blood Angels don't even have a standalone codex at all! Can I tell you how irritating it is to have to carry around a binder because you can't get a legit book? Its embarrassing... I would rather have an outdated standalone codex than a WD article any day. So, with that I can't wait to see C: BA hit the shelves. Sorry DE and 'Cron players, feel free to wipe your tears with the paper from your actual standalone codex. ;)

Duke

P.S. By standalone I mean a dedicated codex that stands alone without any additional information/ garbage courtesy of two White Dwarf magazines.

Well, on the same token - do you know what it's like to carry around a pamphlet with the words "SECOND EDITION" stamped on it? I would be hesitant to call the 5 pages that is the DE book a "true stand-alone" codex.

I obviously feel for your stance, but really. Investment aside, you know the BA codex got an update two years ago. One where all it's units actually work in the current rules.

The DE book has about 4 unit entries that even hold up now.

Brass Scorpion
10-05-2009, 07:25 PM
I have not heard a word about a Dark Angels revision time frame, but given the fact that Codex revisions are all about selling new kits and given the fact that the Dark Angels already have a wide range of great plastics now, I wouldn't be surprised if it was about six years away till the next Dark Angels revision. Six years would be better than ten at least. I'm a Dark Angels collector, but I'm also a realist.

Wolfshade
10-06-2009, 04:01 AM
I think such a long time frame is not believable, at GD:UK, the seminars their stated that while they know what they are doing as a studio currently, and over the next 6 months, anything outside of that is not realistic. There was a question asked if other space marine chapters would be released similar to the space-wolves, i.e. "normal marines" with an upgrade kit, to which the official response was that the studio was happy with the result for the space wolves but couldn't comment on how future releases may be handled, at the same time Jess Godwin was sat there nodding. A further question went on to reveal that it was a quicker process to model marine codex chapters as they have the basic templates to work with initially so its not a lenghty process of having to do a complete build/sculpt

Dosadi
10-06-2009, 07:01 AM
That’s one of the reasons why there are so many marine releases these days; the other being that marines out-sell everything else by a three to one margin.

I feel the pain of the Xenos players; but GW has struggled financially over the past three years and leveraging their best selling products is one of the ways to pull themselves back up. 2010 is going to be the worst year yet as I’m hearing there will be a lot more marine releases. Tyranids are the best selling Xenos army and have the most complete range so releasing a new version is a no-brainer when you look at the sales figures.

I know that the DE are taking a long time and about a year ago I said somewhere that it would be worth the wait and I still feel that way, but there is certainly more venom being thrown GW’s way as of late and it’s only going to get worse as we are not going to see DE in 2010 I feel.

One of the big problems with releasing a non-marine book is that it’s a gamble. No really, it is! While there are certainly the die-hard fans of a particular army, those people are in the minority and the amount of time and money GW puts into developing a new codex and model range can end up not turning much of a profit after their release. A lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but I’ve seen the numbers and I can tell you that Eldar and Tau Empire had a very modest impact on their respective quarterly P&L statements. As for the argument “Well if GW just released Codex: X, then they would be popular too!” is not reflected in the sales stats unfortunately.

GW is betting on sure things right now because the Board of Directors and shareholders are watching their actions very closely. So those niche codices like =I=, Sisters and Dark Eldar will be put on the back burner and revisited when GW feels they can create something that will elevate those armies out of their niche status and give them the models/rules to appeal to a broader customer base. It’s the unfortunate reality of 40k.



Dosadi

eldargal
10-06-2009, 07:26 AM
What numbers, out of interest? I thought I had seen all the financial documents that GW released but I've seen nothing that breaks down sales by Codex.
I do agree with you though, GW have been in for a rocky run since 2004 or so, they have turned the corner back into profitability but they are going to take things very cautiously for the next year or two at least. Though I do think a little more attention to xenos in the form of novels, fluff and articles etc would probably help their sales without costing a tremendous amount.



One of the big problems with releasing a non-marine book is that it’s a gamble. No really, it is! While there are certainly the die-hard fans of a particular army, those people are in the minority and the amount of time and money GW puts into developing a new codex and model range can end up not turning much of a profit after their release. A lot of people are going to disagree with me here, but I’ve seen the numbers and I can tell you that Eldar and Tau Empire had a very modest impact on their respective quarterly P&L statements. As for the argument “Well if GW just released Codex: X, then they would be popular too!” is not reflected in the sales stats unfortunately.

GW is betting on sure things right now because the Board of Directors and shareholders are watching their actions very closely. So those niche codices like =I=, Sisters and Dark Eldar will be put on the back burner and revisited when GW feels they can create something that will elevate those armies out of their niche status and give them the models/rules to appeal to a broader customer base. It’s the unfortunate reality of 40k.



Dosadi

Melissia
10-06-2009, 08:37 AM
Considering they're already promising to release three Marine codices before they release three non-Marine codices? I certainly can't say I feel sorry for the Marine subfaction players who are left behind. There's already too many Marine codices out there as it is.

Also, Dosabi: Post your evidence. I have yet to see someone do this when they make such claims. Given the nature of the business world, I have sincere doubts that their reasons are so well thought out regardless, however (businesses, especially bigger ones, tend to be very screwed up bureaucracies).

Dosadi
10-06-2009, 09:15 AM
I don’t have evidence Melissia, you’ll have to take my word for it. We are talking about internal company reports that aren’t shared publicly. But it’s not a big secret that if you take the second third and fourth best selling box sets GW makes and add them all together you still won’t equal the sales numbers of the SM Tactical Squad box (at least it was so at one time). But feel free to disregard what I’ve said as I’m unable to back up my statement. It doesn’t change the fact that GW will continue to push out the marine releases to reap as much profit as they can.

Eventually the marine saturation level will reach a tipping point. I can only hope. On Sunday I went to my local GW store to play some 40k only to find that every person there had a marine army of some sort (myself included…albeit Chaos Marines). Seeing nothing but MEQ’s in the store made me realize that something’s gotta give for the sake of the hobby (or at least MY hobby). I resolved then and there to stop bring my Red Corsairs into the store for the next few months. So I’ll be using my Eldar or IG with Witch Hunter allies (yes, I have Sisters too Melissia!:D) as someone’s got to break the chains.


Dosadi

Majorcrash
10-06-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm afraid he's right, I have seen the velocity reports on the various product catagories and SM's in all cases out sell any other game system. Keep in mind every starter box has marines and all their acadamys are teaching kids from the starter box. It only makes sense that SM would sell more as they are the army most of use start out with. My SM army goes back to 85 and I havent played it this decade. Those codexs that come out are all in response to the latest marine box set, it seems.:eek:

Prodigalson
10-07-2009, 09:11 AM
First, going back to the original post, nine years? That's completely rediculous balderdash.

GW wants to update every codex at an average of around five years. Some codexes (That sell well) are more frequent... blue marines for instance. Dark Angels are not that old at the moment... unfortunately. Once you see (1) Blood Angels, (2) Black Templars and (3) Chaos Space Marines expect to see Dark Angels within a year. It sucks, but that's the truth. Sitting around hoping a new Dark Angel codex to be announced isn't going to get you anywhere.

Also, if you expect it to be a 'power' book when it comes out, don't bother. I've been playing DA's since before they were green, and that's not how they are released. Jervis loves them, and was their original proponent. Unfortunately, Jervis believes that you have to pay for what you get, he doesn't give things out for free. As long as Jervis is writing the codex, you can expect for it to be rather like it is now. If your playing Dark Angels, it meets you like to suffer.

And remember, if it your in a dress, GW is going to $*@# you like you are in a dress.

For the moment, my Sucessors are standard Green Marines. The basic marine book does a better job reflecting the Battle Companies of the DA's. Only use the DA codex for Deathwing. If you are doing Ravenwing... I honestly would just use Korasarro Khan for him and be done with it. It's what I'm doing.

Now, as for the releases. The only problem with front loading the marines is... what do you do afterwards...? Do marines over again?

I'm not going to broach the issues of their business. Unless you are on the board, I think we are uninformed on the issue. However, comparing their sales to 2000-2004 levels is rediculous. The huge stock increase of that period was due to the ability to sell all of the Lord of the Rings stuff to kids when the LOTR movies came out. After the last movie came out, their stock fell, not that complicated.

Also I know that Tau are a high selling codex, one of the best xenos armies during most of the time. It's probably not so great right now.

I will honestly be surprised if we get a blood angel codex by may. I think they like to do marines at Christmas. I expect Tyranids (January), Xenos in May, Blood Angels in octobe/November.

But who knows. I sometimes wonder if the stuido has that much of a plan anyway.

Brass Scorpion
10-07-2009, 09:30 AM
And remember, if it you're in a dress, GW is going to $*@# you like you are in a dress.
I'm usually not a big fan of comments like this on forums because they are generally gratuitously crude, not very clever, over-used, and not especially funny. However, this one made me howl with laughter. Hilariously placed after a good set-up of genuine speculation. Good set-up and delivery. Really funny, even to a Dark Angels enthusiast.

Expect a lot of Warhammer Fantasy releases in 2010. That's not to say 40K will be ignored, I'm sure it won't be given that it's a huge selling product, but there will likely be a big push to revitalize Fantasy next year.

Melissia
10-07-2009, 11:08 AM
I don’t have evidence Melissia, you’ll have to take my word for it.

Then I don't. You are not posting what I think is a believable number, indeed I would suggest the number is closer to 25-35%, and that is only profits from 40K's miniatures, and quite frankly you couldn't argue that my numbers are any better than yours because you have no proof to suggest otherwise.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but I'm a chemistry major, AKA a woman of science. I need proof to believe in something. I have never seen this evidence, and multiple people have claimed it but noone can produce. It's much like the situation with "alternative medicine" such as homeopathy, people claim it works but nobody can prove that it's anything other than a very expensive placebo.

Lerra
10-07-2009, 12:08 PM
The suggestions of a Forgeworld codex got me thinking. What if GW released 2-3 40k codices a year, and Forgeworld released another 3-4? Assuming we could convince the tourny organizers to allow Forgeworld codices, that would be awesome! Every codex would be updated to 5th edition before 6th came out. There would be a new codex release every 2 months. It would solve so many problems with the game.

</dream>

Dosadi
10-07-2009, 12:26 PM
Then I don't.

Any reports I had are confidential internal company property and sharing them with you just to prove a point would be breach of the trust that was once placed in me.

As you’ve said, several people have stated the same thing as me so it’s not as if I’m pulling this info out of thin air; there is a consensus. You don’t need to be a company insider to find out for yourself. I’m sure if you called up GW and asked them what their best selling product was someone would let you know. The gap between the #1 product and the #2 product is astronomical, even store managers I’ve spoken with recently couldn’t believe it until they were shown the data, so I’m not surprised at your skepticism.

All I was trying to illustrate was the reasoning behind GW’s focus on the astartes which I think I accomplished regardless of the fact that I can’t back up my claim with proof. Lets you do that with chemistry! :p



Dosadi

Prodigalson
10-07-2009, 12:55 PM
The suggestions of a Forgeworld codex got me thinking. What if GW released 2-3 40k codices a year, and Forgeworld released another 3-4? Assuming we could convince the tourny organizers to allow Forgeworld codices, that would be awesome! Every codex would be updated to 5th edition before 6th came out. There would be a new codex release every 2 months. It would solve so many problems with the game.

</dream>

Sadly, unless it is a GW codex, and is therefore usable in Tournament, there is little point to the Forgeworld lists.

For instance, we have the Renegade list from Forgeworld, which would be wounderful as a Lost and the Damned list... but nope, that isn't going to happen. Nor I believe, should it. One of the rather nice things about Forgeworld is that generally they are rather fast and loose. Their rules aren't perfect (not that GW's are) but then against... sometimes they are broken. I remember that griffon incendary round that made you break if it hit you, whether or not anyone died, and wheather or not you passed leadership. Centurian from Dakka crushed me at team tournament with it in 2006 or 07.

Anyway the point was that Forgeworld comes out with great set pieces with interesting rules. They aren't really worried about playtesting or balance as much as GW (should be). I'm not taking on the standard of if the codexes are balanced here, they obviously aren't.

I think it is helpful to remember that codexes come in cycles. If you have a single army, and cling to it against all others, this game will frustrate you to death. By and large this is how it goes.

(1) Your New Codex Is Released - Happy day, it's the second coming, it's amazing. Other armies fear you and quake at your new [insert here] unit. Space Wolves are in this corner currently.
(2) Six Months Pass - Your army is still respected but people have learned to deal with your codex, it's respected, but the tricks and traps of the codex are known. This period can last up to a year to year and a half. Imperial Guard are just entering this, Marines are firmly in it, Chaos is here as is Orks.
(3) Passe - Your codex is older now, but is not ready for revision. Other posts about other armies that are getting a codex fill you with jealousy and anger, and force fist pumping in rage. You see some of your cool gadgets given to other armies, except better then yours. Eldar are here, and so is pretty much every other codex.*

*= Note that Dark Angels did not go through steps (1) or(2), but went directly to (3) within 3-4 months.

The game, and GW really are NOT interested in everyone having an up to date, perfect rule set at the same time. They are interested in selling models with some interesting rules to have fun with.

For this reason, have multiple armies. The new marines really are pretty fun. DA rules suck? Fine, make them Green Marines and go on. Think Space Wolves with all terminators with Login is better then Belial... fine run him and use their rules. I don't care, and I know I wouldn't as a tournament organizer, as long as it is WYSIWYG.

Think Tyranids look great, buy some, paint them up... or maybe blood angels in a bit. I think honestly that it's good to get a new army (or update an army) every year or so. For tournament play, it's almost a necessity, but also for modeling, it's great. Every year I work on about one army over the course of eight months or so, and try new techniques for them. I'm working on my Dark Angel sucessors at the moment Angels of Wrath (http://prodigalsonhobbyblog.blogspot.com/) for 2010 Big Waaagh and I have no idea what rules I'm going to use for them. (Ok... I'm not using Space Wolves... that's just... dirty).

Saying all of that Lerra, I'm all for Forgeworld creating more fun codexes. I notice that GW likes to pull inspiration from them (if not straight jack their designs) and I think that is great.

Also thanks for the comments Brass Scorpion... I thought it was funny too.

Melissia
10-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Just because multiple people claim something does not make it true. Many people will vouch for the efficacy of homeopathic remedies, but they still can't prove that their remedies are any different from water. I await actual proof Dosadi.

I don't claim to understand GW's reasoning. It goes against what I believe would be good economic decisions, but then, they are a corporation. Corporations do not have a long history of good economic decisions.

I think it is helpful to remember that codexes come in cycles. If you have a single army, and cling to it against all others, this game will frustrate you to death. By and large this is how it goes.
Unless you're Space Marines, anyway, in which case your codex wil be updated before any others, sometimes multiple times in one edition.

robertsjf
10-07-2009, 01:57 PM
Unless you're Space Marines, anyway, in which case your codex wil be updated before any others, sometimes multiple times in one edition.



Yeah but you have to repaint 'em all the time and add and remove the spikes constantly....

Dosadi
10-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Just because multiple people claim something does not make it true. Many people will vouch for the efficacy of homeopathic remedies, but they still can't prove that their remedies are any different from water. I await actual proof Dosadi.

This is like the automobile argument; you are taking something that has no basis for comparison with selling toy soldiers and attempting to apply the same standards to it. I can see the point you are trying to make, I just feel you are doing a poor job at it.


I don't claim to understand GW's reasoning. It goes against what I believe would be good economic decisions, but then, they are a corporation. Corporations do not have a long history of good economic decisions.

You should change that statement to “Unsuccessful Corporations do not have a long history of good economic decisions.”
Smart Corporations tend to make economic decisions based on analysis of past trends and sales data. Sometimes they make errors or take risks. The true measure of a corporation is how they handle the recovery from those mistakes. GW made a mistake with LotR. The past few years have been ones of recovery. Much of that recovery has to do with leveraging their IP. This is why you are seeing so much focus on marines. Marines sell; so GW continues to keep the focus on them and fills in the gaps between marine releases with other things that help keep the hobby healthy.


Unless you're Space Marines, anyway, in which case your codex wil be updated before any others, sometimes multiple times in one edition.

Can you show me one marine codex that has received multiple revisions in a single edition.

There are only two such codices that received multiple updates in a single edition and one is the Dark Eldar and that was because they were the second codex out for 3rd edition which was basically a brand new game at the time. The other is Chaos Marines which they can never seem to get right. :p


Dosadi

Lerra
10-07-2009, 03:34 PM
There are some tournaments where Forgeworld rules are legal. I believe Adepticon is partially sponsored by Forgeworld so their rules are legal there. I want to say that Tanksgiving also allows Forgeworld rules.

And local tournaments can do whatever they want, as long as the TO supports it. I think it could become a viable option, and more fun than waiting for 7-10 years for some of the codices to be updated.

eldargal
10-07-2009, 07:08 PM
Sorry Dosadi but Melissia is right, if you can not produce the evidence, it doesn't count for anything. Until we see official GW 40k global sales figures broken down by codex everything is pure hearsay.
Used to be that people would start with marines then move onto other races, I do wonder whether the overall focus on marines and the ability to collect and field the same army indefinitely (Apocalpse) has changed that dynamic.


Think I'll scrap my plans for a marine army now.

Dosadi
10-08-2009, 08:24 AM
Sorry Dosadi but Melissia is right, if you can not produce the evidence, it doesn't count for anything. Until we see official GW 40k global sales figures broken down by codex everything is pure hearsay.

That's fine. All I was trying to illustrate was why GW chooses to focus so heavily on marines and somehow I got carried away with the math. It doesn’t matter what the actual numbers are, the fact of the matter is marines are the best sellers and so GW has chosen to give them the lion share of the focus right now. The proof is in the pudding I guess you could say…

That they have managed to recover with measurable success from the LotR bubble shows that they are doing something right. So I disagree with Melissia’s assessment that they are making a mistake being so astartes-centric.


Used to be that people would start with marines then move onto other races, I do wonder whether the overall focus on marines and the ability to collect and field the same army indefinitely (Apocalpse) has changed that dynamic.

I’d say you hit the nail on the head with this one. Apocalypse has changed the way people buy and build armies. I used to collect and army with the idea of filling every FOC slot. One that was done, I would either move onto another FOC (for my marine army ironically enough) or start another army. Now I see people doing things like five or six HQ’s and three of the same tank for a squadron. I’ve got a friend who is working on finishing up his Deathwing Company with 100 terminators and 12 dreadnaughts. That’s insanity! I’m working on a Red Corsair army that requires five codices to use. Apocalypse has had a profound effect on 40k. The ironic thing is, I don’t even play Apocalypse that much; maybe once every six months at best.


Dosadi

Brass Scorpion
10-08-2009, 09:41 AM
My armies were almost always oversized in the past, based more on a collecting impulse than the needs of the force org. chart. With Apocalypse, the impulse has really run wild. Models do look cooler in groups, so even something I probably only would have done one of before, for example a Vindicator, is now done in groups with an aesthetic to connect them visually.

Apocalypse datasheets have some really atomspheric and cool story-driven ideas in them and a lot of my projects for the past 2 years have been datasheet inspired.

Melissia
10-08-2009, 11:33 AM
Even "successful" corporations make bad decisions frequently. This isn't entirely a knock on corporations, they have to make decisions based off of incomplete information just like everyone else, after all. But sometimes it's because they have a plan and they stick to it even if it's not working, even if a better plan is out there, and so on. Or they stick with a mediocre plan because they don't want to "risk" the excellent plan that would have gotten them more profit.

GW's history is a bit checkered by both bad and good decisions, like many corporations. I personally see their focus on Marines as a bad one. Should they get a bit more focus? Sure, they're popular, so milk 'em. Should they get so much more focus that it is detrimental to everyone else? No, because that would reduce the profits gained from all the other armies.

ChrisW
10-08-2009, 12:28 PM
would love to play my Red Scorpions with the real rules, however the local tournies are never going to allow a whole army under a forgeworld rules set, although they did allow for some kits in the tourniments they had to have a GW base vechile that they emulated. (the whole asking opponents permission thing is a pain)

not to mention the fact that a forge world book is in the area of $80 Can. (in the case of Red Scorpions, for a couple pages of rules) and a regular codex is 35 or so (which has the background & fluff contained).

the draw of the resin crack will keep them selling the models forever, ahh if only they used GW plastic in the moulds......


Now I see people doing things like five or six HQ’s and three of the same tank for a squadron. I’ve got a friend who is working on finishing up his Deathwing Company with 100 terminators and 12 dreadnaughts. That’s insanity! I’m working on a Red Corsair army that requires five codices to use. Apocalypse has had a profound effect on 40k. The ironic thing is, I don’t even play Apocalypse that much; maybe once every six months at best.
Dosadi


:D that is the way i've always collected my armies :D (more for the reason of: Hey i'd love to paint that!)

my chaos force gives thanks to GW for the daemon codex. now at least a quarter of it will get out of the cases to play at any givin time.

Dosadi
10-08-2009, 07:47 PM
GW's history is a bit checkered by both bad and good decisions, like many corporations. I personally see their focus on Marines as a bad one. Should they get a bit more focus? Sure, they're popular, so milk 'em. Should they get so much more focus that it is detrimental to everyone else? No, because that would reduce the profits gained from all the other armies.

I think your feeling are justified; if I only played one army and that army had not received anything new for it for years and years, I'd be a little bitter too. The problem is that people like that are in the minority. Most GW hobbyists play more than one army and about half play both 40k and Fantasy. GW knows this and assumes for every player that sits on their hands waiting for their army of choice to get a revision there are three players who start a new army every six months or continue to build upon their existing army.

I had hoped GW would start publishing White Dwarf lists again or releasing "trial" rules on their website. the Blood Angel's codex is the perfect example of what can be done by not releasing any new models, yet breath new life into an army (even if it is marines :p) At least let the people know that you are still thinking of them.

I’m a big fan of BoLS because they have taken control of “their hobby”. Their mini'dexes and campaign books are a great inspiration for long time players. I encourage more of the same. I've checked out Melissia's homebrew sisters list and it makes me happy to see people taking such a passionate interest in their army. Although, her magic ability to turn any thread into a discussion of SoB is a bit disturbing. ;)


Dosadi