Power weapon swaps mid tourney

[Death 0F Angels]

Just wondered peoples opinion about pinning your power weapons and swapping them between rounds. Unless im missing something your codex nor your rulebook (unless otherwise noted) specifies. Should your list have to?

[Charistoph]

Sounds like a WAACy jerk move to me. Of course, I don't know how many TOs would appreciate model changeouts in the middle of the tournament, especially if it slows down the cycle of games.

[Wolfshade]

This is a slippery slope, if you take this to the extreme, instead of swapping weapons here and there, you swap your entire army.
Most tournaments that I have been involved with require a fixed list throughout so weapon swaps/list tweaking would be an automatic loose.
I think there was one exception, someone had a fire prism knocked off the table, they were allowed to proxy with a saucer, this was replaced with wave serpents once one was popped

[Herzlos]

Why would you want to swap power weapons between rounds? To gain an edge against opponents?

[Captainparty]

Why would you want to swap power weapons between rounds? To gain an edge against opponents?

if you're facing an army when more often than not you're going to strike last, the you may as well take axes

[eldargal]

The thing is the list wouldn't change, anywhere it just says power weapon you could quite legitimately change power weapons between matches. It still matches the list. Unless, of course, TOs start demanding people specify what type of power weapon a unit has which would solve the issue neatly. As it stands I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent it. It may be cheesy but that is what tournaments are for.:rolleyes:

This is a slippery slope, if you take this to the extreme, instead of swapping weapons here and there, you swap your entire army.
Most tournaments that I have been involved with require a fixed list throughout so weapon swaps/list tweaking would be an automatic loose.
I think there was one exception, someone had a fire prism knocked off the table, they were allowed to proxy with a saucer, this was replaced with wave serpents once one was popped

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think I read in the rulebook somewhere that all wargear must be listed specifically, can't remember where though.
But you have to list Psychic Powers in an army list I believe.

[Wolfshade]

The thing is the list wouldn't change, anywhere it just says power weapon you could quite legitimately change power weapons between matches.
Technically correct, the best kind of correct.

[gcsmith]

Eldargal, you sure U aint a female hermies conrad?

[Wildcard]

We already agreed among our group that you specify the type of power weapon you have in your list. (And this has to be done at the time you build your list, before you have seen the oppoenents list)

Like:
Sergeant X
-Power Weapon (Axe)
- Bolt Pistol

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

We already agreed among our group that you specify the type of power weapon you have in your list. (And this has to be done at the time you build your list, before you have seen the oppoenents list)

Like:
Sergeant X
-Power Weapon (Axe)
- Bolt Pistol

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it's in the rulebook. I'll have a check later.

[alshrive]

personally in a tournament, i would label you a complete {censored} if you were changing the wargear between matches. I do not feel it is in the spirit of the game and if you are that desperate to win i would worry that something was rather lacking in your life.

to take the argument to the extreme it would be like me taking my G36cv airsofting, and after one game swapping it for a real G36cv! it is still a G36cv, it just has a slightly different overall outcome!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Instead of orange there was red, oh so much red...

[the jeske]

to take the argument to the extreme it would be like me taking my G36cv airsofting, and after one game swapping it for a real G36cv!
only those two have different names . A power weapon is a power weapon only thing that gives it different rules is the looks . Not to mention with counts as [lets say I play csm and use mutated claw/tentacle on my champs] I could even pull this of with identical looking weapons , no weapon switching needed.

[Denzark]

In Britian, necrophilia with human corpses is illegal. So is bestiality. But if you found a relatively intact dead beastie on the road and f*cked it, you could probably argue you were just copulating with meat, and have found a loophole.

Technically legal then.

Same as changing out for power axes/weapons.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There's a HUGE difference between necrophilia and modelling. xD

[Wolfshade]

Denzark you are missing the point, that would be public indecency ;)

[Denzark]

Correct, but not quite such a difference, methinks, between goat-f*ckers and people who would swap weapons for advantage mid-tournament.

[Denzark]

Denzark you are missing the point, that would be public indecency ;)

Not if you did it in the comfort of your own home. Whereas feeding the ducks with a hman corpse is always a no-no. Or as the frogs may say, un non-non.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Correct, but not quite such a difference, methinks, between goat-f*ckers and people who would swap weapons for advantage mid-tournament.

A fair point. xD

[Wolfshade]

Denzark you made me smile :)

I did assume that you were doing it at the roadside where you had come upon the road kill.
As for similiarities between people who have goat-friends-with-benefits and people who swap weapons I couldn't possibly comment as I have met neither

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The tiny magnet industry is clapping it's hands together with glee. :D

[Wolfshade]

The tiny magnet industry is clapping it's hands together with glee. :D
Well they tried but the magnets on their hands are too strong

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'd hate to be magnetic, that would suck.

[celestialatc]

Magnets, Necrophilia, Powergaming, Hermes Conrad...I like were this thread is going.

I would also say they you can't change the power weapon in the middle of the fight. Your character bought ONE power weapon. It's type would be determined at the start of the same. If right at the start at the next team you change it, that seems to me like you got a second weapon, something you did not buy, which would be illegal. Unless you have some kind of weapon that morph, this would just corrupt the spirit of the game.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What's the charge for Necrophilia in Cyrodiil?

[Wolfshade]

Magnets, Necrophilia, Powergaming, Hermes Conrad...I like were this thread is going.

I would also say they you can't change the power weapon in the middle of the fight. Your character bought ONE power weapon. It's type would be determined at the start of the same. If right at the start at the next team you change it, that seems to me like you got a second weapon, something you did not buy, which would be illegal. Unless you have some kind of weapon that morph, this would just corrupt the spirit of the game.

I think going fowards we will be back to having Power Axe (two handed), Power Maul, Power Spork etc. like the good old days.

[celestialatc]

I think going fowards we will be back to having Power Axe (two handed), Power Maul, Power Spork etc. like the good old days.

Power Swiss Army Knives....they have all the rules for all power weapons, choose the type during each initiative phase of combat.

[Kawauso]

I don't see why people cry cheese - but hey, I come from a M:TG background where I've always thought it kind of silly that you're stuck with your list 100% the same all the way through a tournament.

Honestly I think 40k would probably better off with a sort of 'sideboard' in terms of all armies truly being able to 'take all comers'. Though it's a little tricky in that you only get one match against an opponent, not the best out of 3...

Still, WarmaHordes has a multiple list system for tournaments, and that seems to work out well, from what I've heard. Then again, I'm not a tournament sort of player so all my musings are perhaps out of context. :P Take from them what you will.

[Charistoph]

I don't see why people cry cheese - but hey, I come from a M:TG background where I've always thought it kind of silly that you're stuck with your list 100% the same all the way through a tournament.

Honestly I think 40k would probably better off with a sort of 'sideboard' in terms of all armies truly being able to 'take all comers'. Though it's a little tricky in that you only get one match against an opponent, not the best out of 3...

Still, WarmaHordes has a multiple list system for tournaments, and that seems to work out well, from what I've heard. Then again, I'm not a tournament sort of player so all my musings are perhaps out of context. :P Take from them what you will.

That's because 40K tournaments aren't progressive like WarmaHordes. It's still just one list for the entire game. And even WMH tournies still require the stipulation that you can bring 2 lists (Steamroller, is it?) for the game.

[Kawauso]

That's because 40K tournaments aren't progressive like WarmaHordes. It's still just one list for the entire game. And even WMH tournies still require the stipulation that you can bring 2 lists (Steamroller, is it?) for the game.

I understand that - that was the point of my post.

I think allowing some degree of swap-out would be healthy for tournaments.

But again, this is the opinion of an armchair outsider from the tourney scene, so it's not like I'm authoritative on the subject.



Also - the poll is silly. The option in favour of weapon swapping is phrased to sound like a silly fluff excuse (and I'm someone who plays very much for fluff) - comes across as pretty biased. If I were to cast a vote, it'd be in favour of weapon-swapping (because I've played tournaments in a game system where similar things are allowed), but with things worded that way I think I'll pass.

[Death 0F Angels]

As far as i can tell the book does not reference making your list at all besides the FOC requirements and points level for games.

the poll was meant to be silly. I expected the results. Just wanted some discussion.

[Dalleron]

It may be worth noting: If you follow the rulebook to the letter; you choose mission, then your army. This would allow for weapon swaps. Then go about setting up the rest of the mission and play it.

Mind you, the rulebook also says roll individually for each spell per mastery level, not for all spells at once.

[Dastrike]

I am going to throw it out there as this ... It is a game, treat it as a game and not I have to win and tailor my list at all cost!

[Chris*ta]

It may be worth noting: If you follow the rulebook to the letter; you choose mission, then your army. This would allow for weapon swaps. Then go about setting up the rest of the mission and play it.

Mind you, the rulebook also says roll individually for each spell per mastery level, not for all spells at once.

If you followed that rule in a tourney you'd bring 10,000+ points of stuff and just pick out what you want when you find out what mission you're playing and your scouts have reported back what your opponent was playing in his other matches. I don't think anyone would want to play in a tournament like that.

I think we can guarantee that going forward all codexes are going to specify which power weapon/s a given model is allowed to buy, so swapping power weapons before a match will be akin to swapping missile launchers for heavy bolters when you find out your opponent is playing Orks. Kind of logical from a fluff perspective, but just plain cheating if you want to, y'know, follow the rules.

May I also point out that GW just provided us with a nice NEW heavy BDAB rulebook to apply to the face of anyone that actually tries this? Coincidence? I think not ;)

[Yarlen Fireblade]

I think we can guarantee that going forward all codexes are going to specify which power weapon/s a given model is allowed to buy, so swapping power weapons before a match will be akin to swapping missile launchers for heavy bolters when you find out your opponent is playing Orks. Kind of logical from a fluff perspective, but just plain cheating if you want to, y'know, follow the rules.

+1

Also, I would say that the new power weapon variants are wargear, and as such it should be clearly stated in the roster. They are NO LONGER just power weapons as there is no longer such a thing, but power swords, power axes... What´s a power weapon in 6th? what are its stats? There are stats for power axes, swords, mauls... so that´s what you have to write down when buying a power weapon.

That´s what I´d do if I was a judge. No room for cheating.

[gendoikari87]

it's completely legal but it's powergaming bull****.

[Chris*ta]

it's completely legal but it's powergaming bull****.

Is it legal though? The BDAB describes the rules for power axes/swords, etc.

We're also told to treat anywhere that a codex says power sword (or whatever) to treat it as saying power weapon and you know what type from the mini. But this is just to allow us to use 5th ed codexes with the 6th ed rules.

I still think that you're required to specify wargear on your list and that means saying "power axe/sword/whatever" not "power weapon - I'll decide what type when I see what you're playing". Anymore than you can leave a few hundred points off your list and just decide what to take with those points when you can see what you need.

I remember someone suggesting what to do in cases like this -- you pull out a Baneblade and slap it on the table. Opponent asks about it and you tell them "It's my free Baneblade. Show me in the rules where it says I don't get a free Baneblade?!"

[gendoikari87]

for the codexes that use the word "power sword" yeah, it's a power sword, but for the ones that use "Power weapon" you then go to WYSIWYG, and if you can change WYSIWYG.... So yeah for most 5th edition codexes it's going to be legal. Don't automatically assume you can though, Grey knight inquisitors... well guess what? they're labeled as power SWORDS. Sorry Inquisitors. But Death cult assassins have power WEAPONS. As do crusaders.


Show me in the rules where it says I don't get a free Baneblade?!"

It has a points value. Sorry, this is the way it's going to be for a while until the phrasing "power Weapon" is removed or errata'd out it's perfectly legal. might be a dick move but it's perfectly legal.


What´s a power weapon in 6th? what are its stats?

it's a class of weapon, you use WYSIWYG to determine after that unless otherwise stated.

[Death 0F Angels]

Is it legal though? The BDAB describes the rules for power axes/swords, etc.

We're also told to treat anywhere that a codex says power sword (or whatever) to treat it as saying power weapon and you know what type from the mini. But this is just to allow us to use 5th ed codexes with the 6th ed rules.

I still think that you're required to specify wargear on your list and that means saying "power axe/sword/whatever" not "power weapon - I'll decide what type when I see what you're playing". Anymore than you can leave a few hundred points off your list and just decide what to take with those points when you can see what you need.

I remember someone suggesting what to do in cases like this -- you pull out a Baneblade and slap it on the table. Opponent asks about it and you tell them "It's my free Baneblade. Show me in the rules where it says I don't get a free Baneblade?!"

I did not not notice the power sword to power weapon change for codexs. Is that in the rulebook or the FAQs.

It is clearly posted on the list as power weapon, nor does it require any change to the list.

[Morbid]

I remember someone suggesting what to do in cases like this -- you pull out a Baneblade and slap it on the table. Opponent asks about it and you tell them "It's my free Baneblade. Show me in the rules where it says I don't get a free Baneblade?!"

Issue solved.

To actually add to the conversation, I agree that the weapon must be specified. Just as any model has to be given a specific heavy weapon (heavy bolter, lascannon, missile launcher) as an example, you can't just say "my longfangs have a heavy weapon which means I pick which one before the game starts."

No you have to give specific weapons. With new rules on power weapons, they must be specified as there is in fact a difference between them. TOs should be smart enough to make people have set lists.

Personally I give people the option to have all weapons in their entire army count as base power swords or WYSIWYG. I play WYSIWYG but as the rules changed with little notice given, I'm willing to give people the option...atleast for a few months.

[gendoikari87]

I did not not notice the power sword to power weapon change for codexs. Is that in the rulebook or the FAQs.

It is clearly posted on the list as power weapon, nor does it require any change to the list.

Codex. Started with space wolves some, in the Grey knights the really started with power sword. Not sure many people caught that in the inquisitors entry.

Edit: in addition to inquisitors, acolytes got the "sword" treatment.

Edit2: Blood angels use them in some areas as well.

Edit3: Imperial guard has ONE reference of a sword, and that is sergeant bastonne

seems this has been planned out for a long time.

[Chris*ta]

It has a points value.

Yeah, but that's the point cost if you want extra Baneblades on top of the free one ;)

The point is the rules of the game don't prevent you from having a free Baneblade, and they don't prevent you from not specifying whether your sarge is equipeed with a power axe/sword/whatever.

But, because the rules don't say that there is a special exception that allows you to not specify this one piece of wargear (anymore than there is a rule that allows you to have a free Baneblade) means you have to assume you can't. GW rules are permissive, rather than restrictive. They tell you what you can do, and you assume that you can't do anything else; rather than assuming you can do everything, unless the rules specifically tell you that you can't.

[gendoikari87]

Yeah, but that's the point cost if you want extra Baneblades on top of the free one ;)

The point is the rules of the game don't prevent you from having a free Baneblade, and they don't prevent you from not specifying whether your sarge is equipeed with a power axe/sword/whatever.

But, because the rules don't say that there is a special exception that allows you to not specify this one piece of wargear (anymore than there is a rule that allows you to have a free Baneblade) means you have to assume you can't. GW rules are permissive, rather than restrictive. They tell you what you can do, and you assume that you can't do anything else; rather than assuming you can do everything, unless the rules specifically tell you that you can't.

The rules are permissive meaning if it doesn't say you can, then you can't. If it's listed as a power weapon in the rulebook then you go to WYSIWYG. as there is nothing saying that all power WEAPONS are swords otherwise you could easily make the argument that anything in older codex's that says power WEAPON is now a Power MAUL and now can't penetrate marine armor.

otherwise I can write down power SWORD on my list and take a power AXE because it looks cool and do away with those ungodly axe rules. I'm sorry, this is how it works until we get errata that says what power weapons are Axe/swords/mauls/lances ect, ect. Until then they are all the broad classification Power WEAPON and you go to WYSIWYG.

[Chris*ta]

otherwise I can write down power SWORD on my list and take a power AXE because it looks cool and do away with those ungodly axe rules.

Pretty sure you can't because of WYSIWIG. Otherwise I can write Grey Knights on my list and use a handful of change because I don't like the price of the minis ;)

[gendoikari87]

Pretty sure you can't because of WYSIWIG. Otherwise I can write Grey Knights on my list and use a handful of change because I don't like the price of the minis ;)

Good then we are in agreeably then, Power WEAPONS can be anything they are currently modeled after.

[Chris*ta]

Good then we are in agreeably then, Power WEAPONS can be anything they are currently modeled after.

That's not what we're arguing though. The argument is whether you can write "power weapon" on your list and then modify your minis once you find out what your opponent is playing in a tournament.

Short answer: You can't; anymore than you can write "heavy weapon" and then choose whether you want a heavy bolter or missile launcher at the start of a match.

[Death 0F Angels]

That's not what we're arguing though. The argument is whether you can write "power weapon" on your list and then modify your minis once you find out what your opponent is playing in a tournament.

Short answer: You can't; anymore than you can write "heavy weapon" and then choose whether you want a heavy bolter or missile launcher at the start of a match.

Show me a choice in any codex that lets you pay points for a "heavy weapon". I can show you multiple options where you pay points for a power weapon. Also the rulebook specifically states that when i pay points for a power weapon its in game ability goes by what is represented on the miniature. Show me the same for heavy weapons.

Really there is no arguement. It is clear in the rulebook that i can. In my opinion it adds another facet to tournaments and adds a bit to the hobby side of them. This is not something specific to one codex, it goes across the whole game. My only tredidation would be that some codexs may be at a disadvantage due to the wording and prevelance of power weapons in their own codex.

EDIT: forgot to add, it will really be up to a TO wether to allow it or not. I expect it would not be allowed, but i think some discussion is justified.

[Morbid]

Show me a choice in any codex that lets you pay points for a "heavy weapon". I can show you multiple options where you pay points for a power weapon. Also the rulebook specifically states that when i pay points for a power weapon its in game ability goes by what is represented on the miniature. Show me the same for heavy weapons.

Really there is no arguement. It is clear in the rulebook that i can. In my opinion it adds another facet to tournaments and adds a bit to the hobby side of them. This is not something specific to one codex, it goes across the whole game. My only tredidation would be that some codexs may be at a disadvantage due to the wording and prevelance of power weapons in their own codex.

EDIT: forgot to add, it will really be up to a TO wether to allow it or not. I expect it would not be allowed, but i think some discussion is justified.

I'll give it till next month (I surely hope) that the next dex comes out. It will either be DA or CSM, both have different power weapon types. Once we see the structure there, it will set the standard. Until then you can feel free to spout semantics about how WAAC players should be given another way to make people hate them. It's a game that is meant to be fun, not learning new ways to dislike and/or hate people for taking vague rule changes as gospel, and then using that to grief people.

[Death 0F Angels]

Sorry, but i am not doing anything i would not do in a regular game of 40K. If i play my friend and he has higher initiative im going with power axes. Why is it so wrong if i do it at a tournament. 5 pages and no one has told me why they think its a bad idea. Just why i cant,/shouldnt.

[Morbid]

You can't because you cannot change a list between rounds. Changing models counts as changing your list. Period.

[Death 0F Angels]

Debatable imo, but very good point. and again, just telling me why i cant. But why do you think it would be bad for the game is what i really want to know.

[Morbid]

Personally I could care less if people wanted to do that, as I tailor my lists to deal with as many units and weapons as possible. I am only arguing the point for the sake of rules and tourneys. I as a player don't care. That being said I rarely go to tourneys and when I do I enjoy the experience and new friends more than winning.

the real question is what army do you think switching weapons will ever do you good. An all termy army will spank anything that you switch power axes with, and mauls are something you mostly wouldn't bother with, because again, any monsterous creatures would again spank anything that is equipped with them.

Give me some examples as again I tailor my lists for balance to take all comers and on top of that my only imperial army is Deathwing, and they are their own thing, and my Xenos armies will only ever take X option as it is best.

[gendoikari87]

That's not what we're arguing though. The argument is whether you can write "power weapon" on your list and then modify your minis once you find out what your opponent is playing in a tournament.

Short answer: You can't; anymore than you can write "heavy weapon" and then choose whether you want a heavy bolter or missile launcher at the start of a match.

Codex's don't say HEAVY WEAPON. They do say POWER WEAPON. I'm sorry you are so wrong and feel butthurt by this, get over it and move on.

[gendoikari87]

You can't because you cannot change a list between rounds. Changing models counts as changing your list. Period.

Not quite so sure on that. As long as you aren't changing your list, then it's not really changing your army. Could very easily be rectified as a new stated rule however.

[Death 0F Angels]

Thats actually one of my points for it and another reason why i posted. I couldnt really think of much that it would change. but what it would change is if you dont feel like maximising your list the whole tourney or you dont do well in round one you can change over to power mauls for fun. WAAC that hahaha.

My guard infantry blob is probly going to always run power axes but power mauls seem fun and i do like a good mace.

[Morbid]

Not quite so sure on that. As long as you aren't changing your list, then it's not really changing your army. Could very easily be rectified as a new stated rule however.

Incorrect. As you stated it isn't just heavy weapon (which was an argument I alluded to) it's a heavy bolter or missile launcher. When the profile for the model is written you don't put power weapon when it clearly has a sword equipped, you put power sword. There for you ARE in fact changing your list if you change the weapon.

[gcsmith]

Incorrect. As you stated it isn't just heavy weapon (which was an argument I alluded to) it's a heavy bolter or missile launcher. When the profile for the model is written you don't put power weapon when it clearly has a sword equipped, you put power sword. There for you ARE in fact changing your list if you change the weapon.

Actually, the codex asks you to choose a Power Weapon, not power sword. Remodeling is sketchy and WAAC, but possible theoretically.

[Death 0F Angels]

WAAC implies your doing it for an advantage but nearly every unit one is preferable over the other in much of the case. Each weapon has its drawback and strength built in to regulate them(for the most part). If you call it WAAC gaming tell me why. This is 6th edition folks. dont just go CHA CHA CHAAAAAANGE!!!!!! and think its bad for the game.

[Morbid]

Actually, the codex asks you to choose a Power Weapon, not power sword. Remodeling is sketchy and WAAC, but possible theoretically.

Yes it does say in the BRB that the codex trumps all, however the codex is older than the rules and we must assume that in this case the BRB is in fact correct. Like I said we will have to wait for the next dex to end this argument.

As the OP mentioned can anyone come up with a reason this would be an advantage?

As they are: Sword good vs MEQ, Maul good vs MC (high strength good at even scoring wounds) and Axe is good vs high armor save (IE termies).

As I play mostly xenos very few squads I have take power weapons. Howling Banshees imo would be either mauls or the better weapon axes. Chaos termies are one that depends on your force as they are specialists in CSM rather than bread and butter like in other armies.

I too would love some people to give examples of how this could be an advantage rather than a rules argument, given that older books aren't meant to work with new rules.

[Death 0F Angels]

Since the FAQs ive seen change power swords to power weapons(havent gotten to them all yet) I expect every new codex to be the same. We will see though.

Ill be mulling it over this weekend but it seems very dependant to be much of an advantage. I think most WAAC gamers wouldnt bother with it.

[Death 0F Angels]

I wouldnt do this simply for the fact that my opponent may feel cheated and i dont go to tournament for bad play experiences. But would it change things if it was ok but i had to ask my opponent first? Much like using counts as models. Some people obviously hate the idea. but if my opponent is like me and likes the idea?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Since the FAQs ive seen change power swords to power weapons(havent gotten to them all yet) I expect every new codex to be the same. We will see though.

Ill be mulling it over this weekend but it seems very dependant to be much of an advantage. I think most WAAC gamers wouldnt bother with it.That change was more to do with some 'dexes using "Power Sword" and "Power Weapon" interchangeably - for instance, in the vanilla space marine 'dex the master of the forge is listed as having a power sword, but the models are only equipped with axes.

[Death 0F Angels]

its also in the sisters of battle and blood angel FAQ. The other dexes are power weapon specific or have had changes in FAQ from what i can see. Looks like they are streamlining it to me. I have been fooled before though. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Just wondered peoples opinion about pinning your power weapons and swapping them between rounds. Unless im missing something your codex nor your rulebook (unless otherwise noted) specifies. Should your list have to?

I know I'm a Johnny come lately, but I too see it as being gamesmanship rather than sportsmanship thus arguably tantamount to cheating. I don't like modelling for advantage in general, and swapping to suit is just a poor show.

[Morbid]

I know I'm a Johnny come lately, but I too see it as being gamesmanship rather than sportsmanship thus arguably tantamount to cheating. I don't like modelling for advantage in general, and swapping to suit is just a poor show.

Though I fully agree, that it is both a violation of sportsmanship and rules, I do have to bring up the point that the OP tried to bring up earlier. What advantage could be gained with what unit? The best I can think of so far are Chaos Termies, but with that being said Chaos isn't top tier and I don't think switching weapons on Chaos Termies will turn the tide of the game.

Just some food for though.

[gendoikari87]

Incorrect. As you stated it isn't just heavy weapon (which was an argument I alluded to) it's a heavy bolter or missile launcher. When the profile for the model is written you don't put power weapon when it clearly has a sword equipped, you put power sword. There for you ARE in fact changing your list if you change the weapon.

Codex says power WEAPON. That means Sword/Axe/Maul or whatever. That means I can model them as one one week, and come back next week with another and have the same list (by the rules as written). the only difference is that we now have a BRB rule that is WYSIWYG dependant which to me was a bad Idea on GW's part. They should have started implementing these rules on a per codex basis with separate line entries for swords/axes or whatever, but they didn't so we're stuck with a WYSIWYG linked nightmare of a rule.

Now you can have tournaments make a rule that you must use the same models during each game, but unless they do that you can swap out your weapons and still have the same lists.

[Charistoph]

Though I fully agree, that it is both a violation of sportsmanship and rules, I do have to bring up the point that the OP tried to bring up earlier. What advantage could be gained with what unit? The best I can think of so far are Chaos Termies, but with that being said Chaos isn't top tier and I don't think switching weapons on Chaos Termies will turn the tide of the game.

Just some food for though.

There are many models outside of Chaos that have power weapons that aren't swords.

But Terminators in general are a good target for some gamieness. Most are equipped with Unwieldy Fists or Hammers. If you know you are facing a Death/Logan/Draigo Wing you can switch out the sword/staff models for axes so you can cut their armor. Whereas, if you know you're facing Guard, Tau, or either Eldar, falling back on Mauls and Lances makes sense.

But if I saw someone try to pull that sort of crap in a tournament, I might slap him upside the head with either a book or a Chaos Dreadsock, especially if he kept acting like the descendant of a donkey and a horse.

[gendoikari87]

There are many models outside of Chaos that have power weapons that aren't swords.

But Terminators in general are a good target for some gamieness. Most are equipped with Unwieldy Fists or Hammers. If you know you are facing a Death/Logan/Draigo Wing you can switch out the sword/staff models for axes so you can cut their armor. Whereas, if you know you're facing Guard, Tau, or either Eldar, falling back on Mauls and Lances makes sense.

But if I saw someone try to pull that sort of crap in a tournament, I might slap him upside the head with either a book or a Chaos Dreadsock, especially if he kept acting like the descendant of a donkey and a horse.

Then May I suggest you request that your TO rule that you must use the same models for the entire tournament. It's really a simple solution.

[Morbid]

There are many models outside of Chaos that have power weapons that aren't swords.

But Terminators in general are a good target for some gamieness. Most are equipped with Unwieldy Fists or Hammers. If you know you are facing a Death/Logan/Draigo Wing you can switch out the sword/staff models for axes so you can cut their armor. Whereas, if you know you're facing Guard, Tau, or either Eldar, falling back on Mauls and Lances makes sense.

But if I saw someone try to pull that sort of crap in a tournament, I might slap him upside the head with either a book or a Chaos Dreadsock, especially if he kept acting like the descendant of a donkey and a horse.

Could you name some? I am not being snark but I really do want to know. I have DA(DW), CSM, Eldar, DE, Necrons, Orks, Nids and SM. So with those armies I have found switching power weapons to be of no advantage with any unit there. For the armies I don't have listed I would love to hear what units could do this to even have an advantage.

After thinking about it, I really don't see people doing this to give much of an advantage. With gun lines being much better than they used to be, CC units aren't as terrifying (though unquestionably still good) as they used to be. The transport nerf also helped make it more tactical for CC armies to win rather than auto-win like it was in 5th.

I would really like to hear what units/models that people honestly think someone would want to switch out for an advantage. I am truthfully at a loss of seeing this as an advantage of any way of form.

[DarkLink]

But Terminators in general are a good target for some gamieness. Most are equipped with Unwieldy Fists or Hammers.

Fists and Hammers are not generic power weapons. You cannot exchange them or swap them out, mid-tournament or not.



Draigo Wing you can switch out the sword/staff models for axes so you can cut their armor.

Grey Knight force weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. Why does no one bother to read the Unusual Weapon rules?

[Kawauso]

Grey Knight force weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. Why does no one bother to read the Unusual Weapon rules?

Because apparently people would prefer to whine about how OP it is, allegedly, being able to switch between a power sword, power maul, power spear or power axe on certain models between matches.

Because that's going to be what truly tips the balance in the games they have.

[Morbid]

Because apparently people would prefer to whine about how OP it is, allegedly, being able to switch between a power sword, power maul, power spear or power axe on certain models between matches.

Because that's going to be what truly tips the balance in the games they have.

Indeed. I started on this thread pointing out the rule, but when the OP asked how it could be considered OP I got to thinking. No one has yet pointed out a legal unit that could gain an advantage by switching models between games.

The 2 squads I have that I could switch with my armies are Banshees and Chaos Termies. Banshees are a no brainer and I will always play them with axes until GW says I can't. Chaos Termies are a crap shoot but they aren't ever the focal point of my ability to win with CSM, so it makes little difference.

Still waiting to hear from someone who DOES think switching weapons is OP what squads/armies could do this with any measure of success.

[gendoikari87]

You know we've established that you can switch out between games, but what about mid game? That might be where shenanigans and legal ambiguity abound. I really wish GW hadn't tied rules to WYSIWYG. Such a bad idea from the get go.

[Morbid]

You know we've established that you can switch out between games, but what about mid game? That might be where shenanigans and legal ambiguity abound. I really wish GW hadn't tied rules to WYSIWYG. Such a bad idea from the get go.

Incorrect. There was no establishing that you can change your models each game. You cannot change your models between games. You submit a list for a tourney and you play that list. You couldn't switch a Chaos Icon between games, even should they be the same points, how then do you propose that you can switch ANYTHING at all on your models between games?

I really fail to see your logic. Please feel free to explain it to me.

[DarkLink]

Because apparently people would prefer to whine about how OP it is, allegedly, being able to switch between a power sword, power maul, power spear or power axe on certain models between matches.

I think if someone ever asks about it in real life, I'll just start messing with them. I'll tell them that GK force weapons are now based on what you have modeled rather than what they've purchased, then see if I can bull**** my opponent into letting me take free warding staves on everything. That'll teach them not to just skim the rules.




Because that's going to be what truly tips the balance in the games they have.

Yeah, I'm not the least bit worried about it.

The one thing that annoys me about the new rules is the lack of AP2 in most units. I played a game last night where multiple combats came down to a pair of challengers with 2+ armor slapping each other with AP3 weapons for the rest of the game. Since only the challengers can fight, you only get 2-3 attacks each, 1-2 hits each, less than a wound each, and then you still get your 2+ save. Screw cinematic, that's just plain stupid.

I like the new ap rules overall, but I think they nerfed too much stuff to be ap3. There should be at least one semi-common option for AP2 at initiative, at least on HQs.

[gendoikari87]

Incorrect. There was no establishing that you can change your models each game. You cannot change your models between games. You submit a list for a tourney and you play that list. You couldn't switch a Chaos Icon between games, even should they be the same points, how then do you propose that you can switch ANYTHING at all on your models between games?

I really fail to see your logic. Please feel free to explain it to me.

Changing an axe for a sword is not chaging your list (unless you want to show me where the entries for a Power "sword", "axe" ect are). Whether you like it or not, it's not a change on the list. Chaos Icons are not the same entry, there is a difference, I.E. A mark of Khorne is a sparate entry from a mark of nurgle, even if they are the same points they are separate entries. Power WEAPONS are one single entry that is dependent on WYSIWYG.

also **** you if I want to change my whole list around between games I will, unless i'm at a tournament.

[Kawauso]

The one thing that annoys me about the new rules is the lack of AP2 in most units. I played a game last night where multiple combats came down to a pair of challengers with 2+ armor slapping each other with AP3 weapons for the rest of the game. Since only the challengers can fight, you only get 2-3 attacks each, 1-2 hits each, less than a wound each, and then you still get your 2+ save. Screw cinematic, that's just plain stupid.

I like the new ap rules overall, but I think they nerfed too much stuff to be ap3. There should be at least one semi-common option for AP2 at initiative, at least on HQs.

Agreed on the lack of AP2.

I can see where it's coming from, but I think that just a bit more AP2 in melee would be healthy...at least shooty terminators are scary in melee now. :)

[gendoikari87]

Seriously show me where the entry for a power axe is.

[Gotthammer]

Lol @ bumping the thread to hassle someone to counter an angry rhetorical point.
And when you say "also **** you if I want to change my whole list around between games I will, unless i'm at a tournament" you should probably check that the person you're insulting isn't clearly talking about tournaments:
"You cannot change your models between games. You submit a list for a tourney and you play that list."


Darklink, Charistoph was saying swapping out weapons when facing terminators as they will often have low I themselves, so taking axes won't be a great disadvantage, not swapping them on the terminators themselves.



This thread needs one of these:

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/4319.jpg

then some of this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sVfuPBgdLI0/SHPHCNI5oEI/AAAAAAAAAcs/q7fMULnmW1E/s400/reading%2Bcomprehension.jpg

[Morbid]

Changing an axe for a sword is not chaging your list (unless you want to show me where the entries for a Power "sword", "axe" ect are). Whether you like it or not, it's not a change on the list. Chaos Icons are not the same entry, there is a difference, I.E. A mark of Khorne is a sparate entry from a mark of nurgle, even if they are the same points they are separate entries. Power WEAPONS are one single entry that is dependent on WYSIWYG.

also **** you if I want to change my whole list around between games I will, unless i'm at a tournament.

We are talking about tourneys...did you seriously think we were having a rule discussion about weather or not you can switch models in between a friendly game? Okay.

Next name me a tourney that you are allowed to switch out models in any way between games. Every tourney I have been to in 4th and 5th, you were not allowed to modify or switch anything out for any reason unless it was a copy of the exact same model and only if the previous one was broken during a game. Some tourneys you needed to bring super glue to just in case.

Seems to me you have never played in a tourney. However feel free to enlighten me. Your posts have not added to the argument because you have none, and clearly didn't even know what we were talking about to begin with.

[Charistoph]

Agreed.


Fists and Hammers are not generic power weapons. You cannot exchange them or swap them out, mid-tournament or not.

Targets, not subjects, especially when only one version will slice TDA.


Grey Knight force weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. Why does no one bother to read the Unusual Weapon rules?

Because their rules are already defined, maybe.

[DarkLink]

Darklink, Charistoph was saying swapping out weapons when facing terminators as they will often have low I themselves, so taking axes won't be a great disadvantage, not swapping them on the terminators themselves.


Ah... I was like WTF?

[gendoikari87]

Next name me a tourney that you are allowed to switch out models in any way between games..

yes I play in plenty of tournaments and the simple fact is that it hasn't come up, ever, it's never been a rule, except that you had to have the same LIST, the LIST and the models are wholly separate entities save for what's on the list having to be represented on the models (and yes when you choose power WEAPON that can mean axe or sword) and things got broken all the time and were switched out. I myself switched out models based on whether my opponent was willing to allow me to play with my conversions or would have preferred the originals. NOW with the rule being reflected in model, and the list being unchanged with different modeling, you can have the same list with different models. The rules are still the same so models can be interchanged, because it's never been a problem, but now with these new WYSIWYG rules, they need to change that, but it hasn't been yet. maybe your area had a rule that you had to use the same models, but I call bull on that as it was never a problem until now.

So I'm sorry but you have no argument here save for the every easy solution of making it a rule that you have to keep models the same. But until now, that hasn't been a problem and has never been a tournament rule.


"You cannot change your models between games. You submit a list for a tourney and you play that list."Models =/= List What's in the list must be represented by the models but the models are not the list. Unless this is one of YOUR local tournament rules, which I highly doubt as it hasn't been a problem until now. but it is not the case everywhere, or at least is not at 'ard boyz unless both of my local shops run things wrong.

[Charistoph]

Chill. Not everyone plays the same tournaments here. It may be technically legal, in that the BRB doesn't state such, but then, the BRB doesn't say a blessed thing about how tournaments are to be run, either. I guess they assumed their customers to be mature and not total a**hats and d***wads. There are no rules in the BRB against that, either, but that doesn't mean one should.

After all, it is just a game, and a game that requires players to be friendly in order to be successful. And I don't know about you all, but I don't consider a**hats or d***wads to be particularly friendly.

So you do what you want, we can't stop you, but just realize that someone who pulls this kind of crap won't be playing against anyone but themselves and the desperate.

[Cherub]

I seem to remember this happening at a couple of years ago at a tourny at warhammer world. They player was swapping weapons out between games and got caught thanks to people taking pictures of the games and comparing notes. Seems to me he was kicked out of the tournament and banned from warhammer world tournies.

You can try to rationalize it all you want but its cheating, and we all know what happens to cheaters....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIHcXNnSkZA

[Denzark]

The OP asks for reasons why this is wrong. I'm sure I pointed out a squillion pages ago that technically this is legal.

Maybe he wants to know why people dislike the idea. Its simple. MTG and Warmahordes have near indestructible combinations of forces that can leave an opponents force with absolutely no chance of winning. Therefore they need some variation available at any moment of a tournament to make it worthwhile.

Whereas in 40K - OK the floor will surely debate - but the prevalence of instawins is less. There is a point at which you must sh*t or get off the pot. Some armies are so forgiving to (weaker, less experienced, crapper whatever) players because of their flexibility. Ie most marines. However other armies (mostly xenos) have one thing they do really well.

If you drew against an army that will wipe yours off the table you just man up and get on with it. But if you rock up and have a little advantage (Hi I'm a spikey emo elf player with have high initiative) and then your marine opponent changed his force to mitigate this, you may consider this unfair.

No one has ever suggested letting units change out weapons as a good thing before mid-tourney (ah, tyranids. Yes these scouts now have sniper rifles. Ah, mech with few MEQ troops. These plasmas are now meltas). So just becuase the book has a loop hole now doesn't amke it morally more acceptable.

The only reason I can think of why anyone would do this is to advantage themselves. I find as apparently so do many others, a particularly lame thing to do. I would prefer people to walk through the door with a list and for better or worse thats what you play. If its cack, you learn for next time. This ain't MTG or Warmahordes and all that sideboarding crap is a crutch.

Any clearer for you?

[Houghten]

Many Imperial codifereces allow a model to swap one of its weapons for "a combi-melta, -flamer or plasma, x pts."

If I write "combi-melta, -flamer or -plasma" on my list and swap them out between games, is that legal?

No?

Then why would it be legal for me to write "power weapon" on my list and swap between a sword and axe?

[Kawauso]

Many Imperial codifereces allow a model to swap one of its weapons for "a combi-melta, -flamer or plasma, x pts."

If I write "combi-melta, -flamer or -plasma" on my list and swap them out between games, is that legal?

No?

Then why would it be legal for me to write "power weapon" on my list and swap between a sword and axe?

Because currently those combi-weapons are all separate choices.

Currently power weapons, however, are only 'power weapons', and you're supposed to determine what -kind- they are using WYSIWYG.

[gendoikari87]

I guess they assumed their customers to be mature and not total a**hats and d***wads. .

Never, EVER, make that assumption about the human race. And like I said it's a problem that arose because of the unprecedented use of tying a rule to WYSIWYG, and it's one that is going to be easy to fix if it hasn't been already. I think tying a rule to WYSIWYG, was a bad move but they did it, and it's easily rectified by adding a single simple rule to your tournaments.


Because currently those combi-weapons are all separate choices.

Currently power weapons, however, are only 'power weapons', and you're supposed to determine what -kind- they are using WYSIWYG.

This. Just because they are on the same line, under the same cost, does not mean they are the same entry.

[DarkLink]

I seem to remember this happening at a couple of years ago at a tourny at warhammer world. They player was swapping weapons out between games and got caught thanks to people taking pictures of the games and comparing notes. Seems to me he was kicked out of the tournament and banned from warhammer world tournies.

That's because he was changing his list. You take a Wave Serpent with a Scatter Laser in your list, but play it as a Bright Lance in some games, and you've changed your list and thus are cheating by any measure.

But since you're allowed to pick and choose whatever type of power weapon you want, you're not changing your list, so whether or not it's cheating is up to the TO.

[Charistoph]

Never, EVER, make that assumption about the human race. And like I said it's a problem that arose because of the unprecedented use of tying a rule to WYSIWYG, and it's one that is going to be easy to fix if it hasn't been already. I think tying a rule to WYSIWYG, was a bad move but they did it, and it's easily rectified by adding a single simple rule to your tournaments.


I haven't made that assumption for some time. I'm saying that GW as a company may have.

[Death 0F Angels]

So the only thing that has been mentioned is that swapping will be effective against terminator lists wich is really dependant also on if your units werent sporting power axe/maul already wich is likely. Terminator sgt with a power sword or TH/SS is just going to challenge your sgt and chop him down anyways(or PW does not swing anyways). So its really a matter of how many units can bring multiple power weapons. Guard blob, wich is running axes anyways cuz there low I. Chaos or space wolf termies wich are termies themselves. Still though termies seem to be the instance where you would be modeling for advantage.