Dark Eldar facing 2+ Sv

[Saint_Anger]

Hi all,

With 6th edition, GW has made agonisers become ap3, so I do wondered how DE gonna deal with any units that have 2+ Sv like Terminators?

I cannot think of anything about close combat except Talos or Cronos, even Vect's Scapter become power maul AP4!! Do you believe that!?

In shooting, it's disintegrator cannon, anything else?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Shooting-wise, the Lance weapons serve well, S8 AP2 Close Combat AP2 is now limited to Demiklaives, Talos/Cronos, Razorwing Swarms and Power Axes, I think.

Bringing in some Eldar/Corsairs/Tau as battlebrothers can open up some fun AP2 options as well.

[thecactusman17]

Rending is going to work very well. Harlequins and Razorwing Flocks should be your go-to anti-terminator units for close combat.

But by far the best way to deal with heavy armor is the same way we used to do it: throw bucket loads of dice at them in the shooting phase until they die. Works like a charm every time. With the ability now to take allied units of Farseers, this is easier for us than ever before. A 20-model unit of Warriors with splinter rifles will put 10-20 wounds on your average enemy infantry, more if you have Duke Sliscus giving the unit 3+ poison, and more still if a Farseer casts Guide on them and Doom on a critical opponent. Even better, cast the Divination spell that causes your opponent to reroll armor saves, effectively doubling your wound totals against most terminators.

[Archon Charybdis]

Also, Ravagers with Disintegrators. I think we're gonna be seeing fewer vehicles anyway so probably less need for Lances.

[Kushial]

Or even better, take a Farseer and Doom those terminators before shooting them with the Duke warriors. Nasty nasty combination with the Battlebrother ally.

[Ulthwé Guardian]

Feel free to correct me but I don't think Vect's Sceptre counts as a power maul because the Sceptre has it's own rules I believe it counts as an 'Unusual Power Weapon', p61. The same also applies to to any other power weapon that has it's own special rules rules e.g. Agonisers, Dijn blades etc...

Things that are good, Lelith Hesperax attacks and wounds caused from Duke Sliscus's the Serpents Bite that scored 5+ also ignore armour saves. Like thecactusman17 says anything with the Rending rule will be useful. Go finecast Razorwings! (hopefully they won't be direct only from Games Workshop)

If you want to mix-up what power weapons you can have the following units can take bog standard power weapons such power swords, axes, mauls and lances:


Archon
Succubus
Haemonculus
Harlequin Troupe Master
Kabalite Trueborn Dracon
Hekatrix Bloodbride Syren
Kabalite Warrior Sybarite
Wych Hekatrix
Hellion Helliarch
Scourge Solarite
Beastmaster (well at least one can be armed with power weapon)
Reaver Arena Champion


Combos that sound fun is giving Haemonculus a power axe (since he strikes slowest out of this list), Scourge Solarites, Reaver Arena Champions, Hellion Helliarchs and maybe even Trueborn Dracons can benefit from power lances especially Harlequin Troupe Masters who can strike at Strength 5 combining with furious charge. I'm sure there's more combo ideas out there (especially with the Archon and Succubus) that taken advantage. :-)

[Coyote81]

I actually think DE are unqiue able to deal with 2+ save models better then any other army out there. There are a slew of different ap1 and ap2 shooting weapons thoughout the DE book, as well as a few close combat one. You also have some of the cheapest inv save wielding units to tarpit with. Smile and bask in the glory that will be DE vs Deathstars.

[eldargal]

Agreed, take TH/SS terminators for example. No ranged weapon, so no overwatch. All your girls should make it into CC where they have a 50% chance of ignoring wounds. Sure the terminators have a 66% chance of ignoring wounds but they cost a heck a lot more and while they are slowly grinding through your wyches (assuming you can't kill a few of them) they aren't eating through your more fragile units.

200 points of TH/SS terminators against 200 points of Wyches and Succubus.

8 wyches charging TH/SS terminators (no hydra gauntlets)

24 attacks/12 hits/4 wounds/1.32/.64 unsaved wounds

Hekatrix with power axe
4 attacks/2 hits/1 wound/.33 unsaved wounds

Succubus with power axe
6 attacks/4 hits/2 wounds/.66 unsaved wounds.

Total: 1.63 unsaved wounds

In return four Th/SS terminators:
8 attacks/4 hits/3.2 wounds/1.6 unsaved wounds.

Total: 1.6 unsaved wounds

Next turn:
7 wyches no charge.
14 attacks/7 hits/2.33 wounds/.37 unsaved wounds

Hekatrix
3 attacks/1.5 hits/.75 wounds/.25 unsaved wounds

Succubus:
5 attacks/3.3 hits/1.65 wounds/.54 unsaved wounds

Total: 1.16 unsaved wounds

3 terminators:
6 attacks/3 hits/2.4 wounds/1.2 unsaved wounds.

Total: 1.2 unsaved wounds

Through attrition the Wyches will win, assuming you roll averages and assuming no combat drugs (most of which will help, especially the re-roll to wound) and assuming no pain tokens.

Also assuming my maths are right, bit slow this morning.:rolleyes:

Personally though if I were going to charge wyches into TH/SS terminators I would want to try and kill at least one with shooting before hand. Perhaps give the succubusbus a disintegrator cannon for a shot at killing one and try and don't forget to shoot pistols into them.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You say that... Terminators still pasted my Wraiths when, by rights, the Wraiths should have won. :(

[eldargal]

Pfft, wraiths...

So a disintegrator cannon inflicts an average of .66 wounds on a TH/SS, combined with splinter fire from the wyches and succubus (I'd say give the succubus a blast pistol but getting her within 6" to fire it may be awkward)

10 splinter shots/6.6 hits/3.3 wounds/.52 unsaved wounds.

So with a bit of luck you might kill another one before you start.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I can quite openly say that I was utterly destroyed by a Dark Eldar army, my Immortals were dying in droves... (ironically)

[eldargal]

Ravager with

Three disintegrators:
9 shots/6 hits/4 wounds/1.32 unsaved wounds.

Three Dark lances:
3 shots/2 hits/1.6 wounds/.52 unsaved wounds.

I hope my figures are right or I'm making a real idiot of myself...

Twin splinter cannon venom:
12 shots/8 hits/4 wounds/.64 unsaved wounds.

[StraightSilver]

Just hit them with Lelith Hesperax?

[eldargal]

Interesting idea!

Lelith Hesperax charging TH/SS terminators:
6 attacks+ 5 for difference in WS
11 attacks/8.8 hits/2.9 wounds/.957 unsaved wounds.

4 TH/SS terminators strike back, reduced to 1 attack due to shardnet+impaler:
4 attacks/1.32 hits/.87 wounds/.28 unsaved wounds

So Lelith is the equivalent of 8 wyches and a hekatrix with power axe.:rolleyes:

9 Bloodbrides with 3 hydra gauntlets (assuming average of 3 attacks extra) and no combat drugs:
43 attacks/ 21.5 hits/7.09 wounds/1.1 unsaved wounds

[StraightSilver]

Hmmm, that's still a depressingly low amount of unsaved wounds though.

TH / SS Termis are gonna be a nightmare aren't they?

My other issue is negating overwatch with DE, the only pinning weapons I am aware of are shrieker cannons and balefire, anybody know of any others?

My arena cult army is looking pretty pants right now.....

[eldargal]

Yep, I certainly wouldn't want to take her against a squad on her own. Roll badly and she gets IDed. Personally I prefer shooting at TH/SS terminators.

Venom with 2 SC:
.64 unsaved wounds.

Blasterborn (four trueborn with blasters)
4 shots/2.64 hits/2.11 wounds/.69 unsaved wounds

Total: 1.3 unsaved wounds against 200point unit for a cost of 173 points. Not bad.

Voidraven bomber firing two void lances followed by an implosion missile (cost 175 points+)
2 shots/1.32 hits/1.05 wounds/.34 unsaved wounds

Implosion missile (wound characteristic test, AP2) assuming all models are hit.
5 hits/4 wounds/1.32 unsaved wounds.

1.66 unsaved wounds for 175 points.


Incidentally if you roll the re-roll to wound combat drugs option the number of unsaved wounds done by Bloodbrides increases to 1.87.

[Aramel]

Wyches have defensive drenades though right? You can use that against overwatch to get a cover save.

[StraightSilver]

Only if you declare your charge from 8 inches away or less, which I guess is likely, but it's still only a 6++ and if they have flamers you're pretty crewed.

[eldargal]

You certainly have to be more careful with you you charge with wyches now. Really need to send them after vehicles and assault units that don't have loads of guns.

[StraightSilver]

I think the best thing to use Wyches against now are transport vehicles.

If they can surround a vehicle and then drop it with Haywire grenades they can kill everybody inside thanks to the new disembarkation rules.

My biggest fear with Wyches though is the fact that a lot of missions are now played short to short, meaning that they have less chance of getting into into combat before their Raiders get blown up.

They also have a terrible time against overwatch, which is why I was asking about pinning weapons.

My plan is either to assault a unit with a cheap untit (beastmaster), therefore forcing overwatch on them first, and then assault with the Wyches, or to take allies (well slaves in a DE army....) and charge them in first.

Mandrakes look a bit more viable now if they can pin a unit, or maybe up the amount if jet bikes in my army and get them stuck in first, as their 3++ jink is handy when moving flat out.

[StraightSilver]

I think the best thing to use Wyches against now are transport vehicles.

If they can surround a vehicle and then drop it with Haywire grenades they can kill everybody inside thanks to the new disembarkation rules.

My biggest fear with Wyches though is the fact that a lot of missions are now played short to short, meaning that they have less chance of getting into into combat before their Raiders get blown up.

They also have a terrible time against overwatch, which is why I was asking about pinning weapons.

My plan is either to assault a unit with a cheap untit (beastmaster), therefore forcing overwatch on them first, and then assault with the Wytches, or to take allies (well slaves in a DE army....) and charge them in first.

Mandrakes look a bit more viable now if they can pin a unit, or maybe up the amount if jet bikes in my army and get them stuck in first, as their 3++ jink is handy when moving flat out.

[Kyban]

Can't they still overwatch when pinned?

[StraightSilver]

I could be wrong on this (it took me about 4 years to learn 5th!), but I'm sure that units can snap fire but not overwatch when pinned.

Having said that there are very few armies I ever face these days that seem to ever fail a Ld test.....

[rizhail]

Eldargal, don't forget that a squad can throw assault nades during the shooting phase. A succubus tossing a plasma nade (Str 4 AP 4 blast if I remember correctly) has an 8" range attack with a BS of 6 off the scatter die. Something I've kept in mind, since I'm looking at running a dual power weapon Succubus (which means no pistol).

[Neelam]

I'm not sure what they're called but the ravagers with (disintergrator?) cannons, I think thats what they're called but they rip up my terminators / paladins.

[Uncle Nutsy]

I do what i always do when it comes to marines. bury them in splinterfire and follow up with AP2 weaponry. And for dessert, I send the dogs at them.

If the dogs can chew off a daemon princes' face, they certainly can do the job on termies.