Look Out Sir! confusion

[sinfreealex]

Does this keep going on for every save that must be taken on a Sgt or character or is it just once? Text says once.

[Aramel]

Yup, once per wound. So say your unit is wounded 5 times and your seargent is the closest model. If his save is the same as the rest of the unit, you would take a look out sir for each failed save. Once the character dies, excess wounds go to the next model and so on.

If his save is different, then you would make 5 look out sir rolls first. Then, for every failure you take an armour save and when he dies, you move on to the other models. Technically you should roll for each save one at a time so as to not abuse the ability to choose who gets the sucessfuly re-distributed "look out sir" wound. In a friendly game though you might as well roll them all to save time and just put excess wounds back into the pool when the character dies.

[Druid]

Could you please post where in the rulebook it says you need to make your lookout sir rolls first if you have different saves? Everything I've read on lookout sir and mixed armour says nothing about it. As far as I can tell, you always take your lookout sir rolls after you make any relevant saves.

[Nachodragon]

LOS is rolled for Wounds allocated. There is a pool of wounds assigned to your unit. Each wound is assigned to closest model. If 2+ model is in front and everyone else is 5+ you roll the wounds separately. First wound assigned to 2+ guy, you can LOS or roll for the wound.

The unsaved portion of the LOS rule is when everyone has same armor. It doesn't matter what is in the unit, as those unsaved wounds will remove a wound from a model in the unit. So, the first unsaved would would be assigned to front man. If character they can LOS and basically kill another model in the unit. This would go on until the character fails a LOS and he then eats the wound. This is to make it faster.

You could roll all the same armor save separately but this would cause the game to slow down considerably. But it would be the same thing. You assign to closest man, choose to LOS if character and if successful move the wound to another model, they would then take their save. BUT, since all the same, faster to roll at same time.

[Aramel]

On page 16 it says "when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated." This suggests that you can make a LOS roll either before rolling saves or after. I just thought it made more sense to roll it before when the saves are different but I guess it's up to you.

[Aventine]

Could you please post where in the rulebook it says you need to make your lookout sir rolls first if you have different saves? Everything I've read on lookout sir and mixed armour says nothing about it. As far as I can tell, you always take your lookout sir rolls after you make any relevant saves.

You LO,S after allocation (pg 16, first sentence under LO,S). In a same save unit you allocate after saves, in a mixed save unit you allocate before saves (pg 15).

[xilton]

Sorry, you're wrong buddy. Multiple saves does not affect how look out sir is done.

There is nothing that mentions you must save before hand. Look out sir is applied exactly the same with the same saves or not.

The dilemma people have is the wording itself and nothing else. Does "or unsaved wound" mean after a failed save or before a save is made. Some people say it's after, others say it's before. I personally believe unsaved wound = failed save or it would be written like "before saves" , you can chose to look out sir. This also makes the rule more balanced and prevents the problem with 2W allocation units which people have a hard time still again like paladins. There is no other issue with this rule. Multiple save types does not change how look out sir is made and has absolutely nothing to do with it.

To be honest, mixed saves or not, your wound allocation is exactly the same. Only diff is that with all the same save, you're not stuck to roll 1 dice at a time because 1 or more dudes closest don't have the same save. That's it, nothing else to it. Rule as intended and NOT OP like some are trying to do and save their precious 2W models. And just to make sure, I play GK. I wish this would be different but it's not. People are trying to make this rule stronger then it is in reality. The rules are clear and mixed saves do not affect whatsoever look out sir in anyway no matter how you read it. You do not allocate the wounds to all the models if they are different. The closest model will be allocated "ALL" wounds one by one as long as he survives. For each wound that was not saved on IC or C, on a role of 2+/4+ (IC/C), you can put that wound on someone else and that someone else does not have a save of any type possible. That's it. Nothing more simpler then that. And that's how the rule is not matter how you try to read it. It is very clear. It is made to save characters. The one saving him, will get the full hit no saves.

[WickedGood]

Xilton....You make a lot of claims but have no proof. Here is my proof that you are wrong with words directly from the rulebook:

The look out sir rule says:
"When a wound(or unsaved wound) is ALLOCATED to one of your characters,........he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt." ( Pg 16 main rule book)

Now read how a wound is ALLOCATED:
For units with the exact same armor save:
1. " Take Saving Throws" (Pg 15 main rule book)
2. "ALLOCATE unsaved wounds and remove casualties" (Pg 15 main rule book)

So in cases where all the armor saves are identical you allocate after saves have been made. At this point a character can try to LO,S.

For units with MIXED saves (Draigo Paladins, Archon Shadow Fields, etc)
1. "ALLOCATE wounds" (Pg 15 main rule book)
2. Take saves & Remove Casualties (Pg 15 main rule book)

So in the case of mixed saves you MUST ALLOCATE prior to taking the save.

This seems very clear to me. There is still some room for abuse as it appears fuzzy that multiple characters in a character unit can take the LO,S wound. That said the rule book ABSOLUTELY has two different procedures for allocating wounds and those procedures are REQUIRED (not suggested) according to page 15 "If the target unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead of the one presented above. This method is a little slower, but ensures every model gets full benefit of whatever save it is entitled to."

[DarkLink]

Right. Look Out Sir basically boils down to this:


When a wound is allocated to a character, you can pass the wound off to another model in the unit on a 4+ (or 2+ for ICs).

That's pretty much the entirety of the rule, even if they do a clumsy job of explaining it in the rulebook.

So you have to ask, when do you allocate wounds? If you look at the rules for that, as WickedGood mentioned, it depends on if you have mixed saves or not. Thus, even though it isn't directly spelled out in the LOS rule, when LOS occurs at different times under different circumstances.

[Aventine]

To be honest, mixed saves or not, your wound allocation is exactly the same. Only diff is that with all the same save, you're not stuck to roll 1 dice at a time because 1 or more dudes closest don't have the same save. That's it, nothing else to it. Rule as intended and NOT OP like some are trying to do and save their precious 2W models. And just to make sure, I play GK. I wish this would be different but it's not. People are trying to make this rule stronger then it is in reality. The rules are clear and mixed saves do not affect whatsoever look out sir in anyway no matter how you read it. You do not allocate the wounds to all the models if they are different. The closest model will be allocated "ALL" wounds one by one as long as he survives. For each wound that was not saved on IC or C, on a role of 2+/4+ (IC/C), you can put that wound on someone else and that someone else does not have a save of any type possible. That's it. Nothing more simpler then that. And that's how the rule is not matter how you try to read it. It is very clear. It is made to save characters. The one saving him, will get the full hit no saves.

As has been said, it is based off allocation, which is affected by whether you have a mixed save unit or not.

I think it is funny you are trying to say the correct way is more powerful, because if it were like you said (always after saves) it would be much more powerful. If that were the case you (as a GK player) could put Draigo at the front of your unit of power-armoured troops and then he could soak all incoming firepower with his 2+/3++, then if he happened to fail one, it would just kill a shmuck on a successful LO,S, essentially giving the entire unit the benefit of his Terminator armour. That is not how it works!

[Col.Straken]

To be honest, mixed saves or not, your wound allocation is exactly the same. Only diff is that with all the same save, you're not stuck to roll 1 dice at a time because 1 or more dudes closest don't have the same save. That's it, nothing else to it. Rule as intended and NOT OP like some are trying to do and save their precious 2W models. And just to make sure, I play GK. I wish this would be different but it's not. People are trying to make this rule stronger then it is in reality. The rules are clear and mixed saves do not affect whatsoever look out sir in anyway no matter how you read it. You do not allocate the wounds to all the models if they are different. The closest model will be allocated "ALL" wounds one by one as long as he survives. For each wound that was not saved on IC or C, on a role of 2+/4+ (IC/C), you can put that wound on someone else and that someone else does not have a save of any type possible. That's it. Nothing more simpler then that. And that's how the rule is not matter how you try to read it. It is very clear. It is made to save characters. The one saving him, will get the full hit no saves.

So, according to you this will make it fairer? What if I stick my 2+/3++ Necron Lord as the closest model with 20 4+ warriors behind?

Well according to you, I get a 2+/3++ save (depending on AP) and if I fail it I can "look out" onto a 4+ save model (but he doesn't get a save). So to make the game fairer they let me give my Necron Warriors a 2+/3++ save?

And that is why in a mixed save unit you allocate wounds first and do any LOS rolls before you take a save, so that te warriors are taking their 4+ save and not the Lords 2+/3++

[xilton]

I see what you mean. When I said more fair, I was mostly talking about wound allocation to paladins or units of the same type where they get an auto wound and not get the chance to save it. As for the rules, you can't have 2 ways of doing things. A rule is a rule and in the multy save rules, nothing mentions how to treat look out sir and the look out sir rule is quite clear about rolling after saves.

Seems we have a dilemma on this rule for sure. Both versions of the interpretation of the rules people make are pretty solid with good points. I'm guessing they will have to FAQ it. I hate this rule period though. If you are a marine, you will never coward yourself into the unit to not get hurt. You were trained to be a fearless fighting machine lol

[celestialatc]

So, according to you this will make it fairer? What if I stick my 2+/3++ Necron Lord as the closest model with 20 4+ warriors behind?

Well according to you, I get a 2+/3++ save (depending on AP) and if I fail it I can "look out" onto a 4+ save model (but he doesn't get a save). So to make the game fairer they let me give my Necron Warriors a 2+/3++ save?

And that is why in a mixed save unit you allocate wounds first and do any LOS rolls before you take a save, so that te warriors are taking their 4+ save and not the Lords 2+/3++

You don't HAVE to take the look out, sir rolls. You could just let the Necron lord take all the damage and hope his armor and invul saves...save him...

[xilton]

Yea but if you are like me last game, I lost 3 wounds on 13 shots on draigo 1st round of shooting. :( d'oh

[celestialatc]

Yea but if you are like me last game, I lost 3 wounds on 13 shots on draigo 1st round of shooting. :( d'oh

That's unfortunate....but I hope the Paladin squad avenged him!

[xilton]

That's unfortunate....but I hope the Paladin squad avenged him!

nope, i ended up in cc (after a movement error I made) with a NDK against 5 BA termies with hammer and shield + libby with shield. out of the cc, only draigo came out with his 1 wound. I think this was my worst game with GK lol nothing was working at all.

[Col.Straken]

You don't HAVE to take the look out, sir rolls. You could just let the Necron lord take all the damage and hope his armor and invul saves...save him...

No you dot have to, but my point was you can't take the best save and then LOS

[Aventine]

I see what you mean. When I said more fair, I was mostly talking about wound allocation to paladins or units of the same type where they get an auto wound and not get the chance to save it. As for the rules, you can't have 2 ways of doing things. A rule is a rule and in the multy save rules, nothing mentions how to treat look out sir and the look out sir rule is quite clear about rolling after saves.

Seems we have a dilemma on this rule for sure. Both versions of the interpretation of the rules people make are pretty solid with good points. I'm guessing they will have to FAQ it. I hate this rule period though. If you are a marine, you will never coward yourself into the unit to not get hurt. You were trained to be a fearless fighting machine lol

Both sides interpretations are not solid and you haven't made any good points. We have provided page numbers and explained it quite clearly, you have just made random sweeping statements like "As for the rules, you can't have 2 ways of doing things." It doesn't need an FAQ, it just needs you to read the rules without your preconception of how it works.

[xilton]

I did mention the same pages as everybody else, there's nothing that says LO'S must be done before hand so even if you mention that page, it doesn't change anything. More so when the allocation for diff saves has been covered in another thread about the dude in front taking up everything until he is dead (not considering LO,S here). There is absolutely nothing that says LO'S will be taken before in the case of different saves an LO'S is quite clear, it's after. I do agree that both sides have their reasons and both think they see it the good way as it often happens and neither will budge. Which is fine. I have no problem with what people think for sure and I certainly don't want to insult anyone but I just simply don't see it the same way and vice versa. This is one of those I really hope they FAQ cause it does change taking wounds. If I'm right or wrong it doesn't matter, I just want it clarified and right now, like the opposing players, we both think we are right so.... can't fight on that really. Have to wait.

[Rapture]

In this case, passing the huge benefits that an independent character can offer to an entire unit (think 2+ model accompanied by a unit of dirt cheap wounds - like a crisis suit with a unit of 10 kroot) is so significant and unprecedented that the burden of arguing for it must be higher than the burden of arguing against it. Anything outside of direct language supporting rolling a mixed save and then taking the LO,S roll is simply not sufficient.

This reminds me of people arguing that dreadknights could shunt as a scout move. The idea of it just reeks.

[xilton]

Well some believe in those combos. I do not though. I play for fun so my combos are not always top notch. lol But yes, I do understand how it could favor some ICs or Cs doing it like I see it. I play pallies so not rally an advantage for cheap units. You already can do it without using LO'S so that just adds to it. I can surely understand, using that way, that you do not want your opponent to decide to LO'S after he missed his save. You would want him to do it before hand which is logical. Viewed this way, I'll have to admit it is better. I didn't think of a cheap unit cause I don't really play or have any at my disposal and since I don't play with competitive people well some issues never come up.

Thanks Rapture, this example made it more clear logical wise. I just hope people see what I was saying as being a possible interpretation.

[Nimor]

As far as the LOS wording goes the save or unsaved is there just to identify that LOS can be used By a Character even if he gets no save IE space marine 3+ hit be lascannon you can LOS even though no save is allowed this rule has been in fantasy for a long time your reading to much into it.

If a Char is the dude that a wound is allocated to then before the save is rolled(or would be if say AP didn't allow it) you can LOS to stop him getting face-melted this is done everytime a Wound is allocated to him.

So If you put a terminator Chaplain as the closest guy then you can benifit from either taking his save on 2+ on some bolters and letting the Lascannon shots get LOS'ed to normal dude if you dont want to risk the Chappy

[Col.Straken]

As far as the LOS wording goes the save or unsaved is there just to identify that LOS can be used By a Character even if he gets no save IE space marine 3+ hit be lascannon you can LOS even though no save is allowed this rule has been in fantasy for a long time your reading to much into it.

If a Char is the dude that a wound is allocated to then before the save is rolled(or would be if say AP didn't allow it) you can LOS to stop him getting face-melted this is done everytime a Wound is allocated to him.

So If you put a terminator Chaplain as the closest guy then you can benifit from either taking his save on 2+ on some bolters and letting the Lascannon shots get LOS'ed to normal dude if you dont want to risk the Chappy

Was doing that with my Des Lord and Wraiths, my Des Lord took the Ap3 or worse hits in his 2+ and any Ap2's got LO'S onto my wraiths with their 3++ (before taking saves)

[joedrache]

hopefully, this will clear things up

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/07/11/40k-wound-allocation-flow-chart/

[sinfreealex]

Xilton....You make a lot of claims but have no proof. Here is my proof that you are wrong with words directly from the rulebook:

The look out sir rule says:
"When a wound(or unsaved wound) is ALLOCATED to one of your characters,........he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt." ( Pg 16 main rule book)

Now read how a wound is ALLOCATED:
For units with the exact same armor save:
1. " Take Saving Throws" (Pg 15 main rule book)
2. "ALLOCATE unsaved wounds and remove casualties" (Pg 15 main rule book)

So in cases where all the armor saves are identical you allocate after saves have been made. At this point a character can try to LO,S.

For units with MIXED saves (Draigo Paladins, Archon Shadow Fields, etc)
1. "ALLOCATE wounds" (Pg 15 main rule book)
2. Take saves & Remove Casualties (Pg 15 main rule book)

So in the case of mixed saves you MUST ALLOCATE prior to taking the save.

This seems very clear to me. There is still some room for abuse as it appears fuzzy that multiple characters in a character unit can take the LO,S wound. That said the rule book ABSOLUTELY has two different procedures for allocating wounds and those procedures are REQUIRED (not suggested) according to page 15 "If the target unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead of the one presented above. This method is a little slower, but ensures every model gets full benefit of whatever save it is entitled to."

Thanks, WickedGood, this is the clearest of answers to me personally. I should stop posting questions like this when I'm at work without a rulebook handy.

Thank you to everyone that has aided in figuring out this challenging question. I emailed GW Customer Service on the off chance then could explain and offer assistance, too. I'll report back what I hear from them.

[DarkLink]

Right, everything comes down to the word Allocated. Which can make things kinda complicated, as the chart in the link posted above points out.