Flyers and Hover

[Bean]

Alright, I've got a conundrum for you folks. Check out the rules on Hover 'Type' Flyers on page 81:

"A flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase....If a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

Unfortunately, if you apply this rule literally, it has a tragic consequence:

A Flyer which opts to Hover may never afterwards opt to Zoom. Why not? Because Fast Skimmers can't opt to Zoom. If the Flyer is really to be treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer, it forfeits all the rules that Flyers have that Skimmers don't--including the ability to pick between Hover and Zoom. It only gains these back if it opts to Zoom, but that is something it no longer has the ability to do.


What's the alternative?

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a good alternative interpretation contained within the rules. One might be inclined to suggest that the Flyer is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer for the purposes of its movement only--but this is belied by the line later on in the section which says, "This makes it more maneuverable, but often limits the number of weapons it can fire." If we were to treat it as a fast skimmer for movement only, the number of weapons it could fire would not be affected.

We could say that we treat it as a fast skimmer for the purposes of moving and shooting, but, since the rule really says nothing at all about shooting aside from listing this consequence of being treated exactly as a skimmer, there's no basis for that interpretation in the text.

Finally, this arose because I was thinking that Flyers remained Flyers while hovering (it made sense, since I knew they had to be Flyers to go back to Zooming) and would thus be able to Skyfire even while Hovering, which seemed neat.

When I went to check the rules, though, I realized that this is not the case--that, in fact, they stop being Flyers entirely--which both shot my Skyfire idea in the foot and, really, shot Hover on the whole in the foot as well.

So, what do you guys think:

Play the rules as written, with Hovering Flyers losing the ability to Zoom?

Go for Skimmers for the purposes of movement only, ignoring the one not-really-a-rule line about shooting and letting them Skyfire while hovering?

Some combination?

And why?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's a Flyer that CAN hover, it doesn't lose it's own rules....

/thread

[Bean]

It's a Flyer that CAN hover, it doesn't lose it's own rules....

/thread

So, you don't treat it exactly like a Fast Skimmer, even though the rules tell you to do so explicitly?

I guess that puts you in the "movement only" camp?

[Defenestratus]

It's a Flyer that CAN hover, it doesn't lose it's own rules....

/thread

+1

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

So, you don't treat it exactly like a Fast Skimmer, even though the rules tell you to do so explicitly?

I guess that puts you in the "movement only" camp?

For the purposes of movement, shooting, and targetting. It can opt to change back in the next turn.

Do you see real world flyers just listing lazily to the left as soon as they stop flying full throttle to hose down the enemy? No.

Seriously /thread

[Bean]

+1

Guess I'll ask you, too--you're planning to opt not to treat the flyer exactly like a fast skimmer even though the rules tell you to do so explicitly?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Use common sense.

[Bean]

Use common sense.

What does common sense tell you?

Which of the flyer rules does the flyer keep while it's being treated exactly like a fast skimmer? And why?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The ability to opt out of being a skimmer... Read this (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435)

[Bean]

The ability to opt out of being a skimmer... Read this (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=21435)

I did. Since the rules don't actually support your assertion at all, I'll presume that you're...

I don't know. Mentally conflicted?

Skimmers do not have the ability to opt out of being a skimmers. Thus, things being treated exactly like skimmers also lack the ability to opt out of being skimmers. This is both flawless logic and perfect common sense.

Look I was just looking for opinions on how to play it. I'm a little disappointed that you've decided to be rude about it, but if you're going to take this approach, don't expect the kid gloves. Your assertion, from a RAW perspective is baseless nonsense--take your own advice. Read the rules. Then come back and maybe try to have a civil, intelligent conversation.

[eldargal]

Christ...

It is a flyer that is treated like a fast skimmer, it does NOT become a fast skimmer, its unit type remains Flyer but at the beginning of each movement phase it can decide whether or not it is treated like a fast skimmer or treated like a flyer.

RAW is clear, there is no conflict unless you are a) a ******* moron or b) being deliberately obtuse.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Bean, I was actually approaching it from a RAI perspective, get your assertions correct next time please.

Thank you EG.

[Bean]

Christ...

It is a flyer that is treated like a fast skimmer, it does NOT become a fast skimmer, its unit type remains Flyer but at the beginning of each movement phase it can decide whether or not it is treated like a fast skimmer or treated like a flyer.

RAW is clear, there is no conflict unless you are a) a ******* moron or b) being deliberately obtuse.

So, which of the flyer rules does it retain while it's being treated exactly as a fast skimmer? Just that one? That one and the Skyfire one?

[Bean]

Bean, I was actually approaching it from a RAI perspective, get your assertions correct next time please.

Thank you EG.

So, you were approaching it from a RAI perspective, but told me to go read the rules for an answer?

Seems, again, oddly conflicted of you.

Good to know, though--as far as the RAI goes, I agree with you, though I'm interested how you feel about Skyfire.

I was kinda on the fence before, but I'm thinking flyers were probably intended to retain it while hovering--after all, almost all of the other rules specify that they only work while the flyer is zooming.

[eldargal]

It retains all of them, but as it is being treated like a fast skimmer until it's next movement phase it cannot use any of them.

So, which of the flyer rules does it retain while it's being treated exactly as a fast skimmer? Just that one? That one and the Skyfire one?

[Bean]

It retains all of them, but as it is being treated like a fast skimmer until it's next movement phase it cannot use any of them.

It's not treated as a fast skimmer until its next movement phase--the part about the next movement phase isn't in the rules at all.

There is no duration listed for that effect--no point at which it ends. It persists until some rule causes it to end. So, if it can't use any of its flyer rules, what rule causes it to end?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm an Agent of Tzeentch! Of course my opinion is conflicted.

[Bean]

I'm an Agent of Tzeentch! Of course my opinion is conflicted.

Lol. Fair enough. =)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I also did not mean to be rude, I find it hard to convey tone over the internet.

[eldargal]

What part of 'each movement phase' do you not understand? At the start of each movement phase you have to choose whether to Zoom, and be treated as a Flyer, or Hover and be treated as a Fast Skimmer. That is RAW. There is no issue here..

I'll try and explain it simply, using RAW:

Player Turn 1 Movement Phase: Flyer A has to choose whether to Zoom or Hover, it chooses Hover. Flyer A is treated as a Fast Skimmer.
Player Turn 1 Shooting Phase: Flyer A is treated as a Fast Skimmer
Player Turn 1 Assault Phase: Flyer A is treated as a Fast Skimmer.
Opponent Turn.
Player Turn 2 Movement Phase: Flyer A has to choose whether to Zoom or Hover, it chooses Zoom. Flyer A is treated as a Flyer.
Etc.

Get it? That is RAW, each movement phase you have to choose.

[Bean]

I also did not mean to be rude, I find it hard to convey tone over the internet.

I understand. I probably overreacted.

[Xenith]

It's not treated as a fast skimmer until its next movement phase--the part about the next movement phase isn't in the rules at all.

There is no duration listed for that effect--no point at which it ends. It persists until some rule causes it to end. So, if it can't use any of its flyer rules, what rule causes it to end?

THE RULE
"A flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase....If a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer."

The hover mode lasts until you choose it not to, before it moves each movement phase.

Being treated like a fast skimmer does not mean it loses the 'flyer' or 'hover' rules.

It's like how wings of Sanguinius makes the model move as jump infantry. It doesn't actually make them jump infantry.

[Bean]

What part of 'each movement phase' do you not understand? At the start of each movement phase you have to choose whether to Zoom, and be treated as a Flyer, or Hover and be treated as a Fast Skimmer. That is RAW. There is no issue here..

I'll try and explain it simply, using RAW:

Player Turn 1 Movement Phase: Flyer A has to choose whether to Zoom or Hover, it chooses Hover. Flyer A is treated as a Fast Skimmer.
Player Turn 1 Shooting Phase: Flyer A is treated as a Fast Skimmer
Player Turn 1 Assault Phase: Flyer A is treated as a Fast Skimmer.
Opponent Turn.
Player Turn 2 Movement Phase: Flyer A has to choose whether to Zoom or Hover, it chooses Zoom. Flyer A is treated as a Flyer.

Get it? That is RAW, each movement phase you have to choose.

I still disagree. You have to choose each movement phase--for each model with that rule. If you choose to Hover, you treat the flyer exactly like a fast skimmer until further notice--you agree, yourself, that treating a flyer like a fast skimmer entails it losing the ability to use all of those flyer rules. That must include the one that forces you to pick.

In terms of RAW, you're still wrong. You're turning a flyer into a skimmer, then trying to turn it back with a rule that it can't use. I'm not sure why the flaw there isn't obvious, to you, but it doesn't really matter.

If you're only willing to offer input that's obviously wrong, that's fine, but I don't really have any interest in discussing it with you further. If you have a less self-contradictory position to offer, though, feel free to let me know. The RAW, here, is obviously--arguing about it is not what I'm here to do (though it occurs to me that I shouldn't be surprised that I'm being drawn into it. I always forget how bad people can be at reading.)

[Captainparty]

It's not treated as a fast skimmer until its next movement phase--the part about the next movement phase isn't in the rules at all.

There is no duration listed for that effect--no point at which it ends. It persists until some rule causes it to end. So, if it can't use any of its flyer rules, what rule causes it to end?

I don't know why you're being so obtuse, no one agrees and no one agrees that your reading of the rules is correct, because it isn't. FLyers with that rule have the option at the start of a turn to choose a method of movement, Zoom or Hover, for that turn, for the purposes of moving and attacking.

No where does it say they change thier type to Fast Skimmer, it says they are treated like they are fast skimmers, the fact that they're only treated like fast skimmers means they're not actually fast skimmers, they're still Flyers and so retain the Flyer special rules.

Seriously, stop wasting your own time trying to point out non-existant problems man, and stop being so rude to those who answered the question you asked but didn't give the answer you wanted.


I still disagree. You have to choose each movement phase--for each model with that rule. If you choose to Hover, you treat the flyer exactly like a fast skimmer until further notice--you agree, yourself, that treating a flyer like a fast skimmer entails it losing the ability to use all of those flyer rules. That must include the one that forces you to pick.

In terms of RAW, you're still wrong. You're turning a flyer into a skimmer, then trying to turn it back with a rule that it can't use. I'm not sure why the flaw there isn't obvious, to you, but it doesn't really matter.

If you're only willing to offer input that's obviously wrong, that's fine, but I don't really have any interest in discussing it with you further. If you have a less self-contradictory position to offer, though, feel free to let me know. The RAW, here, is obviously--arguing about it is not what I'm here to do (though it occurs to me that I shouldn't be surprised that I'm being drawn into it. I always forget how bad people can be at reading.)


You're really wrong on this, is English not your first language? Treated is the keyword here, its not transformed, its still a FLYER but, for the purposes of movement its TREATED like a fast skimmer otherwise it would say "The Flyer's type is now changed to Fast Skimmer and it follows all rules for a Fast Skimmer"

[Bean]

I don't know why you're being so obtuse, no one agrees and no one agrees that your reading of the rules is correct, because it isn't. FLyers with that rule have the option at the start of a turn to choose a method of movement, Zoom or Hover, for that turn, for the purposes of moving and attacking.

No where does it say they change thier type to Fast Skimmer, it says they are treated like they are fast skimmers, the fact that they're only treated like fast skimmers means they're not actually fast skimmers, they're still Flyers and so retain the Flyer special rules.

Seriously, stop wasting your own time trying to point out non-existant problems man, and stop being so rude to those who answered the question you asked but didn't give the answer you wanted.

So, they retain all of their flyer rules? Does that mean you think hovering flyers can give their weapons Skyfire?


You're really wrong on this, is English not your first language? Treated is the keyword here, its not transformed, its still a FLYER but, for the purposes of movement its TREATED like a fast skimmer otherwise it would say "The Flyer's type is now changed to Fast Skimmer and it follows all rules for a Fast Skimmer"


Actually, my degree is in English.

And yes--the word is treated. However, skimmers can't opt to zoom. If you let your hovering flyer opt to zoom, you're not treating it like a skimmer--if you were, it too would be unable to opt to zoom.

There you go--very simple, very straightforward. The word treated creates exactly the effect I'm claiming it does. I won't insult you by suggesting that English isn't your first language, but it's clear that you need to brush up a little bit.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I just HAD to post this.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/399/Stop_being_obtuse_copy.png

[Captainparty]

So, they retain all of their flyer rules? Does that mean you think hovering flyers can give their weapons Skyfire?

Only Zooming Flyers can choose to use Skyfire.

[eldargal]

No.

Read The ******* Rule.

You are not turning a Flyer into a Skimmer, at no point does it say 'the Flyer then becomes a Fast Skimmer'. It says it is to be TREATED like a Fast Skimmer for the duration it Hovers which by the written word of the rule is until it has to choose once more at the next Movement Phase. There is no room for interpretation here. At the beginning of each turn you choose to Zoom, or Hover. At no point does it lose its rules.

If you can't see this I can only conclude you are being deliberately difficult to troll the forum, or you are complete idiot.

[Megad00mer]

Obvious troll is obvious...stop feeding it.

And if he's actually serious and thinks that's the way the rule works, have fun finding opponents there, buddy. ;)

[Bean]

Only Zooming Flyers can choose to use Skyfire.

Why?

[Bean]

No.

Read The ******* Rule.

You are not turning a Flyer into a Skimmer, at no point does it say 'the Flyer then becomes a Fast Skimmer'. It says it is to be TREATED like a Fast Skimmer for the duration it Hovers which by the written word of the rule is until it has to choose once more at the next Movement Phase. There is no room for interpretation here. At the beginning of each turn you choose to Zoom, or Hover.

If you can't see this I can only conclude you are being deliberately difficult to troll the forum, or you are complete idiot.

If you allow the flyer to opt to hover, you're not treating it like a skimmer, are you?

There--that entire objection completely overturned.

At the beginning of each turn you choose to Zoom or Hover--if it has access to that rule, which (as you said yourself) it doesn't as a skimmer.


In other news, I'm basically sick of your baseless insults. Knock it off.

[Captainparty]

So, they retain all of their flyer rules? Does that mean you think hovering flyers can give their weapons Skyfire?



Actually, my degree is in English.

And yes--the word is treated. However, skimmers can't opt to zoom. If you let your hovering flyer opt to zoom, you're not treating it like a skimmer--if you were, it too would be unable to opt to zoom.

There you go--very simple, very straightforward. The word treated creates exactly the effect I'm claiming it does. I won't insult you by suggesting that English isn't your first language, but it's clear that you need to brush up a little bit.

You have a degree in English and yet you don't know the definition of the work "treated"? I find that difficult to believe, this is really the issue here, you're seeing the work treated and you're confusing it with transformed or changed.

[Bean]

Obvious troll is obvious...stop feeding it.

And if he's actually serious and thinks that's the way the rule works, have fun finding opponents there, buddy. ;)

Next time I start one of these, I should start a pool on how soon someone will toss this one into the ring. Stop trolling. If you don't have anything productive to input, please just don't post.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

People, please let's calm down.

[eldargal]

Actually all it says about Skyfire is it has to choose whether or not it uses it at the start of each Shooting phase, nothing about requiring Zoom. Logically it could hover and skyfire. However it cannot claim Hard to Hit as that specifies Zooming.

[Bean]

Never mind. I offer an interesting observation, ask a reasonable question, and all I get are insults and nonsense. Forget it.

[Bean]

Actually all it says about Skyfire is it has to choose whether or not it uses it at the start of each Shooting phase, nothing about requiring Zoom. Logically it could hover and skyfire. However it cannot claim Hard to Hit as that specifies Zooming.

Thanks for this, at least.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I'm sad that no one laughed at my picture... :(

[Captainparty]

....

[eldargal]

It isn't baseless when you are acting like an idiot.

It is treated like a fast skimmer, but it does not become a fast skimmer. Therefore it never loses the Zoom rule, it just chooses the Hover rule instead. Nothing you have said overturns this.

If you allow the flyer to opt to hover, you're not treating it like a skimmer, are you?

There--that entire objection completely overturned.

At the beginning of each turn you choose to Zoom or Hover--if it has access to that rule, which (as you said yourself) it doesn't as a skimmer.


In other news, I'm basically sick of your baseless insults. Knock it off.

[Bean]

I'm sad that no one laughed at my picture... :(

Don't be sad. I laughed. =)

[eldargal]

I didn't laugh, but I appreciated the reference.:)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Don't be sad. I laughed. =)


I didn't laugh, but I appreciated the reference.:)

YEY! I'm popular!

[Jwolf]

I'll go with "nothing more to be said here" and we're out.