Can GK Crowe use its Perfect Warrior: Rapier Strike against all characters?

[Wildcard]

The Perfect Warrior* (p.26 GK 'dex)

The wording for the Rapier Strike is as follows: "-- The Champion makes D3 attacks this turn (D3+1 if he charged). These attacks are resolved at iniative 10 and must be directed against a single independent character or monstrous creature in base contact."

Now, as most of you know, Crowe (and brotherhood chapions) do not have attack values in their profile, yet Crowe is a character and Brotherhood Champions are independent characters. For those of you who do not know, Perfect Warrior rule gives you 3 stances:

1) single attack against each model in b2b
2) reroll all failed saves - but do not attack at all that round
3) get a D3 (D3+1 on charge) attacks on charge against IC / MC on b2b at I10

So, the real question is: Can that Rapier Strike-mode be used (in challenges for example) against characters now, and what is the exact relation of Character and Independent Character?

Reason i am wondering this, is that the role of the model is to be a 1on1 fighter, yet when fighting against characters, plain RAW (if i understand it correctly) would mean that armys most skilled duelist can strike only once against characters in challenges..

[DarkLink]

It's very clear that you can only hit a single independent character or monstrous creature. Not regular characters, not multiple ones, just a single independent character or monstrous creature. Not all characters are independent characters.

[Wildcard]

It's very clear that you can only hit a single independent character

Yes it is. But the point i was after here, is Character sub type to Independent Character or is Independent Character sub type to Character.

Similarly: A special rule that would only affect tanks wouln't affect any other vehicles, but if the special rule would affect vehicles it would affect tanks aswell.

The reason why i am confused (for the lack of a better term in my knowledge) is that why a Brotherhood Champion can use "Rapier Strike" against Dante but not against Mephiston?

or in GK vs GK situation: Why cant Brotherhood Champion use Rapier Strike against Crowe, but Crowe can use it against Brotherhood Champion?


not multiple ones, just a single independent character or monstrous creature
Yet it was FAQed that if the squad has multiple MCs you allocate the wounds as normal to wound allocation (brotherhood champions have force swords so in a theory atleast it could be possible to kill 3x MCs with multiple wounds with a 3x str4 strikes)

[Tynskel]

very unlikely.
You allocate wounds to the closest model, defender's choice, unless you get a precision strike. So the defender could apply all the wounds to the 1 carnifex (for example).

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

If it says it only works on Independent Characters and Monstrous Creatures, it only works on Independent Characters and Monstrous Creatures. Is a Space Marine Sergeant an Independent Character or Monstrous Creature? :P

All Independent Characters are Characters, but not all Characters are Independent Characters.

It's a wonky rule now that Challenges are a thing, will probably be changed via FAQ or the next 'dex. But RAW right now, only works on I.C.s and M.C.s.

[Tynskel]

better have more than one character in the squad, because it would be funny for someone to challenge the brother champion! You get 1 attack!

Granted, he still has a pretty good chance of winning!

Actually, with the new rules, the Brother Champion is wicked. If you have a character, you better challenge him, or he'll just sit there taking every single wound on a re-rollable 2+ (or 3++) while the rest of the squad kills everything.

[DarkLink]

I would thinik it was pretty obvious that ICs are a subset of characters, simply from the fact that all ICs are characters but not all characters are ICs. Read the rules for ICs. ICs are a specific type of character than can join and leave squads. Combined with the fact that the stance specifically states "independent characters" and not "characters", I would think the answer is pretty obvious.

[bfmusashi]

P.39 bottom left hand paragraph of the insert for "Independent Characters." ICs follow all the rules for characters and some additional rules. Rapier Strike isn't going to cut it but you can still throw Cleansing Flame and Sword Storm out as I don't see anything in the challenge rules that prevents Crowe from killing guys on the side. It's clear no one else can hit him, but there's nothing stopping him from swinging wildly while lighting everyone in his vicinity on fire far as I can see.

[Wildcard]

very unlikely.
You allocate wounds to the closest model, defender's choice, unless you get a precision strike. So the defender could apply all the wounds to the 1 carnifex (for example).

You allocate wounds, one at a time. And my point was to use force weapons that cause instant death. If the carnifex doesn't have eternal warrior (i honestly dont know), then its one caused wound per carnifex.
Whether or not he can make saves depends on his armor/ invu save (brotherhood champs NFS is ap3)

[DarkLink]

Nid MCs don't have eternal warrior, no. And since the force weapon would cause ID on everything, then, yeah, just pluck one carnifex in base contact each.

With the new ap rules, Crowe actually got a pretty decent buff. I might actually try him out for once.