gw trying to stop people from using Army Builder

[dawnofthedead]

A buddy sent this to me and I thought some of you guys would find it interesting. GW sent a letter to Datafilecentral.com (the people who make data files for AB) to stop making data files for all of there GW products. Here is the link:

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=21779

[Wolfshade]

I am not surprised, what the people who write the 40k/WFB/LoTR data files are doing is essentially distributing GW's copywrited data. Now, creating your own data files is fine and dandy as long as it is for personal use and you owned the source, i.e. codex/army book as it would come under personal use.
The concern is what this will mean to Wolflair as their product is really good but if I could no longer get the data files for it for 40k it would be of no use to me, I'd go back to my excel and codex.

[gcsmith]

gotta love the GW is Evil reaction. Also Wolfshade since Wolflair don't produce the army apps it means nothing, they just build the ground software, at leas that's what I saw.

[eldargal]

Yep, apparently stopping people from distributing copyright material is 'evil'. No sympathy from me on this, GW do a lot of hamfisted legal things but this isn't one of them.

[gcsmith]

Yep, apparently stopping people from distributing copyright material is 'evil'. No sympathy from me on this, GW do a lot of hamfisted legal things but this isn't one of them.

I agree, GW are forced to do these actions due to UK laws, if it wasn't for that GW probably wouldn't pursue these things.

[pauljc]

Yeah, all I see is a company trying to safeguard it's IP and data, and trying to make some money. Which isn't exactly easy to do in this internet age.

Warhamer isn't exactly an open source product.. ;)

[Wolfshade]

gotta love the GW is Evil reaction. Also Wolfshade since Wolflair don't produce the army apps it means nothing, they just build the ground software, at leas that's what I saw.
Wolflare produce the application, what they don't do is the data files, in essence the AB compatable version of the codex. But, all the people I know who use it do so soley for GW games and so with that not being availble I doubt that any of the people I know will renew their license and therefore, Wolflare will not be getting their money and so Wolflare's marketshare/profitability will decrease, which would be bad for them.

[gcsmith]

Wolflare produce the application, what they don't do is the data files, in essence the AB compatable version of the codex. But, all the people I know who use it do so soley for GW games and so with that not being availble I doubt that any of the people I know will renew their license and therefore, Wolflare will not be getting their money and so Wolflare's marketshare/profitability will decrease, which would be bad for them.

That is unfortunate, but the reality is they depended on another persons IP to make money on that basis. Still with the emergance of WM/Hordes they have stuff to do ther.

[Wolfshade]

Exactly and as much as they claim to be seperate from those people who make data files, and they are, those people are a very important part of the overall business strategy.
Of course, the best solution (read: the one that would not occur) is that the files can be produced under licesnse from GW and when you buy a codex you get a copy of the equivalent data files.
GW ages ago had their own computer programme roster and it wasn't well supported/advertised and didn't get a following.

[Cpt Codpiece]

I think if the heads of GW are getting twitchy about AB now, after all this time.... i mean i was using AB when GW had the software for sale LOL, its not like AB is a new product.

but anyway, what i was saying, if the nobz at GW are getting twitchy now, then maybe something is in the works, a rehash of the old system, or given the current releases an ipad only army roster maker that auto updates with the codici ((sp?) in your itunes account?

i would not be shocked to see the ipad thing though, it does make a lot of sense given they way they are moving.

[Defenestratus]

Yep, apparently stopping people from distributing copyright material is 'evil'. No sympathy from me on this, GW do a lot of hamfisted legal things but this isn't one of them.

You're missing a lot of historical context here. The army builder data files are not distributed through wolflair. They are created and shared by a group of independent data file authors who receive no compensation for their work. For 14 years GW has been fine with the arrangement and indeed has even blessed it in the past. Something has changed however and I fear that it has to do with the blasted ipad program.

[Flammenwerfer13]

You're missing a lot of historical context here. The army builder data files are not distributed through wolflair. They are created and shared by a group of independent data file authors who receive no compensation for their work. For 14 years GW has been fine with the arrangement and indeed has even blessed it in the past. Something has changed however and I fear that it has to do with the blasted ipad program.

Not sure I follow. How is there releasing on iBooks causing this?

[eldargal]

I know the historical context, but now GW are moving into the digital products market things were going to change. The fact remains GW is in its rights to do this, and doing soe doesn't make them evil.:)

You're missing a lot of historical context here. The army builder data files are not distributed through wolflair. They are created and shared by a group of independent data file authors who receive no compensation for their work. For 14 years GW has been fine with the arrangement and indeed has even blessed it in the past. Something has changed however and I fear that it has to do with the blasted ipad program.

[Wolfshade]

Not sure I follow. How is there releasing on iBooks causing this?
Well GW are in their rights to do it any time for infringement purposes, but the idea would follow that as they release more digital editions of stuff they might release an army roster building tool, although no rumours on that front that I am aware of. Thus, if you want to use GW stuff via electronic copies you will need to use their products.

[celestialatc]

Does anyone else think this is laying the ground work so GW can put out their own Army Builder?

[eldargal]

I think it is a distinct possibility.

[Defenestratus]

I think it is a distinct possibility.

And it will be a travesty on the magnitude of the last attempt. Seriously, "Armies/Enemies of the Imperium" was quite possible, and I do not jest here, the WORST computer program ever to be authored and compiled (rivaled only by the abortion of code known as Quicktime/iTunes)

It wouldn't start half the time, and when you were trying to make a list, it would crash regularly. The output was pretty horrible and non-customize-able.

In the end, it would be in GW's best interests to let the fine chaps at Wolflair/ab40k.org to continue what it is that they are doing.

Those of us that don't buy into the cult of Apple will be left in the cold it seems all because GW wants to play in the digital world.

[eldargal]

I hate Apple as much as the next girl, but GW are still in their rights to try and make money by producing an army builder program and stop others from doing so when it involves their copyrighted material.

Also we don't know it will be as bad this time, GW have at least hired some decent, dedicated programmers this time. We also don't know it will remain Apple exclusive indefinitely.:)

[Defenestratus]

I hate Apple as much as the next girl, but GW are still in their rights to try and make money by producing an army builder program and stop others from doing so when it involves their copyrighted material.

Also we don't know it will be as bad this time, GW have at least hired some decent, dedicated programmers this time. We also don't know it will remain Apple exclusive indefinitely.:)

I'm not holding my breath.

[wittdooley]

And it will be a travesty on the magnitude of the last attempt. Seriously, "Armies/Enemies of the Imperium" was quite possible, and I do not jest here, the WORST computer program ever to be authored and compiled (rivaled only by the abortion of code known as Quicktime/iTunes)

Despite the fact that their newest digital offering, the eCodexes, are fantastic and have already been updated per 6E.




In the end, it would be in GW's best interests to let the fine chaps at Wolflair/ab40k.org to continue what it is that they are doing.

How is this in GWs best interests at all?



Those of us that don't buy into the cult of Apple will be left in the cold it seems all because GW wants to play in the digital world.

We've been over this multiple times in various other threads, but GW isn't the only company to release the product first on iOS because of the relative ease in which it can be programmed for and the security it provides. Couple that with the fact that the AppStore generates 6x the Revenue (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fgadgetlab%2F2011% 2F12%2Fios-revenues-vs-android%2F&ei=_zb8T4DNPIi1rQH0uJ2LCQ&usg=AFQjCNHGMxutx6H7IiKMryJUfzy1J8hjsQ&sig2=_9zoImYSh6hELlvA_bgfOA)that Android does, it's clear why an initial iOS introduction makes sense.

I realize none of the facts regarding App Sales market share will convince an Apple hater to buy an iPad, but that's really your loss. The iPad provides the premier tablet experience for a user in an incredibly durable and attractive package, and that's why they outsell every Android tablet by a considerable margin.

[Defenestratus]

Despite the fact that their newest digital offering, the eCodexes, are fantastic and have already been updated per 6E.

blahblahblah

I don't have time to play the quote bomb game - but its in GW's best interest to let them keep going because its an excellent tool to accompany their own products. Whatever they do will likely cost them more, and not be as good and will alienate users like myself.

I'm not going to rehash the reason why you're pretty fundamentally wrong about the iPad. You've drank the kool-aid and there's no convincing an indoctrinated follower. All I'll say, is that the Appstore might generate more revenue than the Play Store - but Amazon dwarfs them both as far as digital content revenue. It would have been even more beneficial to release their content on amazon where everyone - regardless of platform - could access it.

[Psychosplodge]

I realize none of the facts regarding App Sales market share will convince an Apple hater to buy an iPad, but that's really your loss. The iPad provides the premier tablet experience for a user in an incredibly durable and attractive package, and that's why they outsell every Android tablet by a considerable margin.

That's false logic, I could easily state that apple market share is merely because the type of person that buys an apple anything has to be known to have the latest everything so buys the imac, ipad 3.2 and iphone 6xs, whereas the average user thinks whats the point of a tablet? I've got a phone and pc...
You can prove anything with statistics...

[Lancel]

A UK judge threw out Apple's patent dispute with Samsung because Samsung's tablet was, and I quote, "not as cool" as the iPad. Not that I have an iPad but it amused me: http://blogs.wsj.com/tech-europe/2012/07/09/samsung-tab-not-as-cool-as-ipad-says-judge/

More on topic, the logical next step to GW's new digital initiative would be an Army Builder app that integrates with the user's purchased codices to build said armies. I don't know what legal permutations could exist here for the actual Army Builder guys, but their program itself isn't illegal. As long as they aren't providing or distributing the data files themselves they should be fine, technically. The only trick is that then GW goes and finds the data file guys and shuts them down, which is probably within their right to do. This largely would result in it being a bit more time consuming and inconvenient, which would support the idea that GW is possibly coming out with their own.

[Kyban]

We've been over this multiple times in various other threads, but GW isn't the only company to release the product first on iOS because of the relative ease in which it can be programmed for and the security it provides. Couple that with the fact that the AppStore generates 6x the Revenue that Android does, it's clear why an initial iOS introduction makes sense.
From what I understand it isn't any easier to program for an iOS device, probably less easy than for an Android. The one thing it does have going for it is that there is only one device so you don't have to worry about how it works on different devices. The security is about the same overall and the appstore sells more because people have more Apple devices, which is the real reason most companies release the iOS apps first.


I realize none of the facts regarding App Sales market share will convince an Apple hater to buy an iPad, but that's really your loss. The iPad provides the premier tablet experience for a user in an incredibly durable and attractive package, and that's why they outsell every Android tablet by a considerable margin.
Ipads are no better than many Android tablets but that's the impression everyone has because Apple is great at marketing and promotions. I'm not a fan of Apple but I have an ipad because 'free' is hard to beat. I don't want to turn this into an ipad vs android war because they are both good platforms, while GW would definitely release a AB style app for Apple because so many people use their products I would hope they also release an Android version but that's up to the guys at GW.

[Psychosplodge]

Also if we look it by operating system like we do with the pc/laptop market, rather than by manufacturer, the android market jumped 10% in 12months to 40% and the iOS market share fell 10% to 60% if the trend continues....

But anyone can play with statistics

(IMO all tablets are merely a novelty)

[Kyban]

(IMO all tablets are merely a novelty)
Yeah, for now they seem to lean in that direction, they could become more like easily portable laptops with some nice extra features at some point but not as long as their locked up as tight as an ipad is...

[Wolfshade]

I realize none of the facts regarding App Sales market share will convince an Apple hater to buy an iPad, but that's really your loss. The iPad provides the premier tablet experience for a user in an incredibly durable and attractive package, and that's why they outsell every Android tablet by a considerable margin.
Certainly it is strange that the Andriod Apple split has dipped in favour of Andoid, the Apple App Store has the higher number of users and developers. However, maybe this because apple users are more used to paying for thier content?
I would suggest that the ipad would outsell its competitors, but not necessarily because it is the better device, certainly when looking at the hardware specs it is not outstanding, and in many cases there are competitors with better specs. IIRC the memory cannot be expanded, it is not universally 4G compatable
I would suggest that the reason they get it is because they are more aware of it and it has "brand value".
There are also issues with brand loyalty and intercomptability, if my pc is a mac, my phone is a mac so I want my phone to be a mac also so they can talk to each other nicely, whereas you can't get a complete hardware solution at the moment, with the windows 'phone coming out and android ports it is become more possible.
I would disagree with the security issues, both are software both stores contain apps which are bogus and contain malware

The biggest reason to release on itunes first, is that it has the highest number of paid transactions.

I hadn't even considered the kindle, which I think is the most superior e-reader format. Hmm.

[Memnon]

Hmmm.....what I do know is that without Army Builder I would never have purchased a single Games Workshop product. When a local shop owner introduced me to AB and I was able to quickly experiment with how I could set up an army was when I took the plunge and started buying and assembling kits.

GW has made a lot of money off me thanks to AB.

[Svarthofthi]

GW has made a lot of money off me thanks to AB.

That's true for me, as well. It IS unfortunate as we are as of now out of a product capable of crafting lists and they have released nothing to cover the loss of AB.

But assuming they put a product out that is capable of building lists, it will amount to the same thing. Only the ball will be in GW's court.

[Defenestratus]

Hmmm.....what I do know is that without Army Builder I would never have purchased a single Games Workshop product. When a local shop owner introduced me to AB and I was able to quickly experiment with how I could set up an army was when I took the plunge and started buying and assembling kits.

GW has made a lot of money off me thanks to AB.

I'm with you there.

[wittdooley]

I'm not going to rehash the reason why you're pretty fundamentally wrong about the iPad. You've drank the kool-aid and there's no convincing an indoctrinated follower. All I'll say, is that the Appstore might generate more revenue than the Play Store - but Amazon dwarfs them both as far as digital content revenue. It would have been even more beneficial to release their content on amazon where everyone - regardless of platform - could access it.

I guess we'll simply agree to disagree. There's no indoctrination; the user experience for me is better on an Apple product than on an Android device. And there's a main reason for me:

Familiarity -- Now, if you're one of the 10 people that has never had an iPod at all, this may not matter, but I tried out multiple MP3 Players ( Multiple Creative products, Microsoft Zune) before finally purchasing an iPod (that still works, btw) 8 years ago in college. The user experience on the iPod with the iTunes integration is about as user friendly as it gets. Are there limitations? Sure. Do I have to convert .avi files to .mp4 when I want to put them on my iPad. Yep. But over 10 years the interface has remained, for all intents and purposes, the same. An iPod Touch is effectively a miniature iPad. That familiarity is important for user experience, particualrly when they're looking to market to the masses and not tech-heads.

Now, that doesn't preclude the fact that, IMO, the iPad is more sturdily built than any of the other tablets. I think the Galaxy Tab feels cheap by comparison, and by all accounts it is the best Android device.

The fact remains, and quite frankly I don't know how people still blindy ignore this fact, that the Digital Codexes GW has released WILL NOT WORK on the Kindle in particular, and by all accounts a similar eBook format doesn't exist for the Android. So they chose to release their digital content FIRST on the tablet platform with the most users. What a silly concept. The volumes may be higher on Amazon (can you actually prove this? I searched and haven't been able to find anything) but that's because the Kindle is a eReader juggernaught that, despite how much I use mine to read, I'd have no interest in viewing my codex on. It isn't meant for it, plain and simple. So really, that argument isn't even valid because you're not comparing similar products (and again, ignore the fact that the Kindle couldn't even run one of the Digital Codexes).

[Anggul]

I'm just amazed that people actually pay so much money for Army Builder. For something which is just saving you a little bit of time typing yourself, they charge a ridiculous amount. I bought an app on my Android phone for a couple of pounds and it's just as good if not better than Army Builder.

[Memnon]

I'm just amazed that people actually pay so much money for Army Builder. For something which is just saving you a little bit of time typing yourself, they charge a ridiculous amount. I bought an app on my Android phone for a couple of pounds and it's just as good if not better than Army Builder.

It was $40. That is about the price of a single tactical squad. More than worth it, in my opinion.

[wittdooley]

It was $40. That is about the price of a single tactical squad. More than worth it, in my opinion.

Dont forget you have to renew your license every year if you want auto updates.

[Psychosplodge]

What happened to pen and paper, and just putting the list in the case with the army? rather than lugging a novelty interactive paperweight (regardless of OS) around with you?

[Memnon]

Dont forget you have to renew your license every year if you want auto updates.

True, but still worth it for the price of a kit. If GW wants to come out with something good and comparable then we will see. But if they don't fill the hole this will create, expect piracy, and there is no question that this will cost them some money. AB was selling GW product for them and vice versa. It was a symbiotic relationship.

[Wildcard]

Dont forget you have to renew your license every year if you want auto updates.

But, its autoupdates.. Its really easy just to click "go to the datafile-page" and "download"...

Other than that.. I do hope that GW will release its own version of Army Builder to other platforms than iOS..

I personally don't want to be "forced" to invest in machine, that doesn't practically work with any other electronic device i have..

Same with those digital copies of codexes.. i would gladly invest in them, if i could just use them on my laptop..

[Psychosplodge]

But why over complicate it?
Books people books!

*head => desk *

[Memnon]

But why over complicate it?
Books people books!

*head => desk *

What about using AB is overcomplicated?

AB is very simple to use. Much more efficient than books and pen and paper.

[alqadim]

I really like ArmyBuilder. I happen to hate Apple. With extreme passion due to some horrible customer service experiences I vowed to never purchase another one of those products until the CEO was dead an... hmm Well I guess I could try them out again now...

But.. Pen and paper is all great. But ANY time I have ever played a game against an opponent with a sloppy mish mash of a notebook paper list, its been miserable. Not to mention that pen and paper doesn't proof check itself, nor does the brain of 90% of the younger kids that are playing the game at the LGS's around here have the capacity to do the simple math required to make sure your list is accurate. Hopefully if GW does make their own product its easy to use or they take a clue from Infinity and make a brilliant web based one that prints beautiful lists and uses some mechanism for sharing the lists.

[Defenestratus]

The fact remains, and quite frankly I don't know how people still blindy ignore this fact, that the Digital Codexes GW has released WILL NOT WORK on the Kindle in particular, and by all accounts a similar eBook format doesn't exist for the Android.

And I don't know how you frankly keep ignoring the fact that there's NOTHING in the GW iOS garbage that couldn't be done via HTML5 with open standards that would work on all ecosystems of devices (even Windows!), including the Kindle Fire.

And before you whine and complain about "piracy!" just be aware that the iOS digital codex is ALREADY out there on the web and is being stolen as we speak. I know because the guy that showed it to me yesterday said that he wasn't going to pay so much for so little so he just found it in a torrent and loaded it to his jailbroken iPad.

As for user experience - its completely subjective. If you don't like the fact that the galaxy tab feels cheap, then you HAVE A CHOICE and you can go look at the offerings from other vendors! Thats precisely the point! I hate the iPad's size. Its a mega-stupid aspect ratio - but thats all you get if you want an Apple product.

If you don't like the galaxy tab - great, good for you. Go check out Moto's offerings, or Asus, or Lenovo, or Acer, or Viewsonic, or any other number of different options at different price points.

Google just showed people how it is supposed to be done with the Nexus 7 which some tech sites recommend just as highly as the "new" iPad.

As for an iPod - I didn't have one because you know why? My cellphone at the time (Treo) played Mp3's just as easily and I didn't want to have to carry around another plastic box. Not only did it do everything that the iPod did, it did everything that the iPhone did before it came out originally.

So I'm sorry if iOS isn't my thing. I prefer to not have to open an app to read my twitter feed or my emails or my calendar. All that information should be available to me instantly as soon as I power on the device. Why do I have to be forced into having repetitive, boring, ugly rows of icons that look like they came out of a gumball machine? Thats so restrictive and redundant AND HARD TO USE!!!

I try to use my wife's iPhone all the time and I constantly have to ask her where a certain app is - while flipping through endless pages of mind-numbing grids of icons. Makes me want to blow my brains out.

[wittdooley]

I try to use my wife's Android all the time and I constantly have to ask her where a certain app is - while flipping through endless pages of mind-numbing grids of icons. Makes me want to blow my brains out.

Huh. Seems like all you need there is a word swap if you're not familiar with Android. Interesting.

Out of curiosity, how often do you change phones?

[Defenestratus]

Huh. Seems like all you need there is a word swap if you're not familiar with Android. Interesting.

Out of curiosity, how often do you change phones?

Except that you don't need to go through mindless rows of icons to find what you want in Android unless its not available on a homescreen and in which case you just hit the search box at the top of the screen, type in the name of the app and bam. Its there. Hell I can even say the name of the app to Google Now and it launches it.

Oh, but woops, apparently my "universal search functionality" is hallowed ground (patented) in iOS so now all of us Android land get gimped search results. How pathetic of Apple to use lawfare to get a leg up on its competition.

I change my phone about once every year and a half - less when its replaced by insurance.

I had an iPhone 3G, OG Droid, Droid X, Droid X2 (insurance replacement - don't willingly purchase this phone) and finally a Galaxy Nexus in recent memory.

[Maelstorm]

GW's marketing and Legal teams need to be shipped to Detroit where they could be "sorted". It would be an end to them pissing off/on so many customers...

Happy thoughts...

[wittdooley]

Except that you don't need to go through mindless rows of icons to find what you want in Android unless its not available on a homescreen and in which case you just hit the search box at the top of the screen, type in the name of the app and bam. Its there. Hell I can even say the name of the app to Google Now and it launches it.

Oh, but woops, apparently my "universal search functionality" is hallowed ground (patented) in iOS so now all of us Android land get gimped search results. How pathetic of Apple to use lawfare to get a leg up on its competition.

So....maybe you're just not aware, but that same search function is available on iOS. You just swipe right instead of left at the home screen...... It'll also let me search for songs that way, which will then auto launch them. From that same screen I go straight to a wikipedia or plain internet search. Oh yeah, and that search will also bring up any references to my search in text messages as well.

TBH, I didn't realize it was THAT robust until your comment prompted me to explore it.




I change my phone about once every year and a half - less when its replaced by insurance.

I had an iPhone 3G, OG Droid, Droid X, Droid X2 (insurance replacement - don't willingly purchase this phone) and finally a Galaxy Nexus in recent memory.

I don't change phones nearly that often, so I appreciate the fact that my iPhone can adapt to the new iOS versions very easily.

[Akaiyou]

Yep, apparently stopping people from distributing copyright material is 'evil'. No sympathy from me on this, GW do a lot of hamfisted legal things but this isn't one of them.

Honestly from what i've seen you are never 'against' GW on anything ive ever read. You are the most pro-GW person i've seen on this board so you saying this has little meaning. You clearly don't use army builder

As a user and novice data file creator (that one time, tyranid 5th ed codex, i was drunk, broke up with gf, etc etc) I have to say AB is amazing in promoting GW material by allowing us quick flexibility in list building not only for our current stuff but also for future plans. I literally have SEVERAL lists in a folder that are just stuff that i want to buy that i've worked out all the kinks on before purchase

Matter of fact I made a purchase based on time spent on army builder, future planning a list just yesterday. Ordered a chaos daemons battle force with a bloodthrister and fateweaver. Had i not had army builder to tinker with, I probably would've not be at the 'ready to buy' point

I've never seen army builder stop someone from purchasing a codex. There's infinite ways to get a codex online by other means. Furthermore with the recent codexes the data file creators have taken better steps to protect GW's IP by listing reference points rather than full descriptions. This has been going on for the past 2 or 3 codexes and it is somewhat annoying as i'm used to just right clicking and making sure what something does without having to go open a codex up and look for a page, but the reference system works very well and should be allowed.

Go ahead download yoruself a copy of AB and take a look at the necron data files and you'll see what im talking about, tell me how is THAT wrong? It's an infinitely better system that they've begun to implement for IP protection than it was to say use one of the older codexes that flat out described everything in detail. (Mind you the detailed descriptions ARE super useful and help to learn things quicker) to outright shut them down is definetly something we should complain about.

Specially given that AB has been around for years! I started this hobby in 2005 and AB was already in there years before i got into it, so why a decade later bring this up as an issue? Specially when things are getting 'better' in regards to the IP protection within the program?

[wittdooley]

First: "Specially" isn't a word. To paraphrase you, "using that word gives the rest of what you say little meaning."

And believe it or not, some of us sit down with the codex and a piece of paper or Excel and build a list that way. Not all of us are super min-maxers, and many of us simply buy models because we like them. Now, I realize math is hard, but I've never had much of a problem using a calculator to add up my army points when making a list manually.

And quite frankly, who cares how long it's been around? I don't, and GW certainly doesn't, especially (see, this is the ACTUAL word you should use) if they've aims to build their own army building program.

[Defenestratus]

So....maybe you're just not aware, but that same search function is available on iOS. You just swipe right instead of left at the home screen...... It'll also let me search for songs that way, which will then auto launch them. From that same screen I go straight to a wikipedia or plain internet search. Oh yeah, and that search will also bring up any references to my search in text messages as well.

TBH, I didn't realize it was THAT robust until your comment prompted me to explore it.

Yes yes yes Google Now does all that and more - until Apple tries to have it banned by the ITC.

[Akaiyou]

First: "Specially" isn't a word. To paraphrase you, "using that word gives the rest of what you say little meaning."

And believe it or not, some of us sit down with the codex and a piece of paper or Excel and build a list that way. Not all of us are super min-maxers, and many of us simply buy models because we like them. Now, I realize math is hard, but I've never had much of a problem using a calculator to add up my army points when making a list manually.

And quite frankly, who cares how long it's been around? I don't, and GW certainly doesn't, especially (see, this is the ACTUAL word you should use) if they've aims to build their own army building program.

Really? Grammar professor you will invalidate my post based on stating that 'specially' is not a word? Yet funnily enough it gets through the spellcheck. Oh what's that you say? There's an entry for it in the dictionary? -gasp-

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/specially

Onto the next point, so because 'some' of you sit down with a codex and a piece of paper means that you have to force your method onto others? You realize in some countries people still do math without calculators, find out about local news by word of mouth, and travel mostly by foot.

So excuse us for enjoying technological advances, and convenience. Yes force your ways onto the rest of us, because it's quite clear that by allowing AB to exist your list building methods become endangered. Oh Noes...what will you ever do if AB continues to exist! How will you ever be able to do what you say you already do for the past decade that AB has already been around?

I apologize for my selfishness.

And oh man you must be one of the best rumor mongers around...do your sources know anything else about this supposed GW army building program you mentioned? Please share more in the rumors section I can't wait to peer over the details.

And again sorry for causing you SO much trouble by making that terrible conscious decision to use an already built program to work out all my army building needs instead of having to build myself a program using excel and doing things your way. -bows- forgive us O great one

[Maelstorm]

It seems only GW and I-fad users don't realise that it is easily released across multiple platforms at the same time and they will all function happily...

From the Privateer Press front page:

"We are happy to announce that War Room has gone gold and has been submitted to the app stores for publication! With War Room fully complete, all that remains is for Apple, Google, and Amazon to review and approve the app so that it can be published to their respective stores. War Room will be available for download soon on iOS and Android devices as well as Kindle Fire. Additional information on when the app has cleared the review process will be available soon."

My emphasis added.

So, Apple I-fad, Android and Kindle Fire at the same time.

There are Red-Shirt huggers and haters on BOLS - we just have to be polite and get along.

[Verilance]

it may be a word but the way you used it is grammatically incorrect :D

Especially would be correct for your usage

[Wildcard]

First of, I rely (practically) entirely on army builder for my 40k armylists. Been doing so for the past ~4 years.


And believe it or not, some of us sit down with the codex and a piece of paper or Excel and build a list that way.

True, that is a possibility. However it takes time, and makes list building harder (messier), atleast when you start to remove stuff, so you can fit a unit you actually want to take.. (and dont twist this - its a fact, be you a new to the hobby, or veteran.)





Not all of us are super min-maxers, and many of us simply buy models because we like them.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with min-maxing (atleast for my part). Sure, you can rapidly and effectively see what kind of forces you can include in X amount of points, but thats more of getting to know your army faster.

Also, I always buy models that i like, not ones that make the most effective list. I have tens of models that are part of the army, but have never seen actual combat..

In addition. There are cases (most notably when we weren't so deeply into the hobby), when there was some Imperial Armour stuff that seemed cool that eventually led to a point where we learned of forgeworld and bought the books (and units - got 2x super heavies currently myself)


Now, I realize math is hard, but I've never had much of a problem using a calculator to add up my army points when making a list manually.

Math is not hard, atleast not by far in scale 40k makes you use it. But, there are always margin for errors, you forget to multiply or add if you take special / multiple special weapons for example. Not that i personally hold any grudge against such errors, since i generally agree that my oppoenent can spent over the agreed point limit by ~10% to make some unit fit with the desired loadout (given that before the 'purchase' the points are below agreed limit).


------------------

Also, one notable feature for us that has come with army builder is the learning of new rules / getting to know them right. Reasons are many (our "teacher" was 4th edition HC-veteran that had hard time letting go of those rules -for example). However, when we saw some rule / description on printed AB roster, and something felt awry, we started to look around (rulebooks, faqs, codices, forums, local store) to find a solution (or reason to our misunderstandings)..

This has happened numerous occasions. A feat army builder is not intended, yet it has well delivered.

---------------------

I have not anything against transfering to the GWs similar roster creating system, however, currently, we got only one version of army builder in use (the one on my laptop). All of our gamers use it to build their rosters when we get together (some make preliminary lists on paper while waiting for their turn).

Now, the problem here is, if i had to buy datafiles (in the first place), for each of the forces we need them for, it would be 5+ more datafile sets from my wallet. And this would be wrong in my opinion.

Also, probably the greatest problem (as i might have stated before) is the platform where their products (currently the digital codices) are available for.

[Brother Wolf]

I use AB all the time for more than just GW games, however it is the one I use it the most for. And not just 40K, but WFB, Epic, etc. Most of the data files support the model characteristics, (which most of us know by heart anyway), costs and FOC. In general, the special rules and details are referenced by the page number in the codex. In the end, the toolkit for AB will still allow any enthusiast to create data files of their own. And if the files go underground, you'll just have to find and torrent them instead of get them freshly loaded via the AB interface, (which is really snazzy). Sure, it's GW's IP, but after all this time to suddenly come out an clamp down seems a bit harsh and out of the blue.

Unless as everyone has stated they are preparing their own offering to complete. I think most of us can remember their last offerings and how UTTERLY ****E they were. I say offerings as in typical GW style, they put out 2, one for the heroes of the imperium and one for the enemies. Really? Hell, why didn't they just publish ONE FOR EACH CODEX?!?!?

Ok, I'll throttle back on this. After over 3 decades as a hobbyist and more than half that time playing GW games, I am still giving them my money. I don't see that changing, albeit until they get Finecast right it'll be plastics only. Still, if they publish something WORTHWHILE, I'll consider buying it. I have spent some time with my wife's iPad reviewing the current offering on the iBookstore. Lackluster is the term I would use, esp considering the price point. $3.99 or $5.99 for a 10-15pg iBook is not horrible, but $40+ for an 'interactive' codex is crazy. I can't believe I'm paying what I pay for my paper codex as it is! Still, if GW can come up with something genuinely competitive with Privateer press' offering, they may have something worth buying.

But here's where I come back to overall practice. If I buy a hardcover book, I should either get access to an eCopy or at least get a discount on one. If there is an app for army building, it should include all armies and free updates if it's purchased OR the app should be free and you have to purchase one for your army. Again, if you buy a codex, you should get a code to unlock your army for free or at a discount.

I'm all for GW giving us the tools to enjoy our hobby more and I don't mind paying for them IF THEY ARE WORTH IT. Anyone who has played Infinity knows how terrific it is to have an online Wiki to review rules and answer questions while playing. AND IT'S FREE! So is their Army Builder. Sure, Corvus Belli will some day have to change, but right now they are hungry and producing quality products for free to support their model sales. This engenders good will AND supports the company selling models, GW's ultimate MO. I just spend $70+ on a new hardcover 6th ed rulebook. The least GW could do is throw me a discount bone for an eCopy.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes...

DOUBLE POST

The other thing to consider would be for GW to actually SUPPORT AB w/ data files. Not sure how that woudl work, but it'd be a cooperative gesture...

[wittdooley]

So, Apple I-fad, Android and Kindle Fire at the same time.



While I'm not entirely sure what an I-fad is (is this a new product?) isn't declaring that it will be available for both Android and Kindle Fire redundant, as the Fire is an Android device? Or do they need to say both because the Android architecture is so different between the two types that they NEED to be different (which would, of course, only substantiate GWs decision to go with iOS first).

I own Army Builder. I use it sometimes. But I dont have a problem if GW decides to develop their own army building program and requests that AB desist. But to be honest, I probably find myself using Excel more for army list building than anything. It's pretty simple. And despite what Akaiyou would have you believe, hardly antiquated.



But here's where I come back to overall practice. If I buy a hardcover book, I should either get access to an eCopy or at least get a discount on one. If there is an app for army building, it should include all armies and free updates if it's purchased OR the app should be free and you have to purchase one for your army. Again, if you buy a codex, you should get a code to unlock your army for free or at a discount.

I'm all for GW giving us the tools to enjoy our hobby more and I don't mind paying for them IF THEY ARE WORTH IT. Anyone who has played Infinity knows how terrific it is to have an online Wiki to review rules and answer questions while playing. AND IT'S FREE! So is their Army Builder. Sure, Corvus Belli will some day have to change, but right now they are hungry and producing quality products for free to support their model sales. This engenders good will AND supports the company selling models, GW's ultimate MO. I just spend $70+ on a new hardcover 6th ed rulebook. The least GW could do is throw me a discount bone for an eCopy.


Right with you on all these points.

[Akaiyou]

it may be a word but the way you used it is grammatically incorrect :D

Especially would be correct for your usage

And yet he claimed the high ground on the basis that it is NOT a word lol
Going as far as to claim that the rest of what I say is invalidated for using a non-word word, that turns out is an actual word after all...

Forgive me if im wrong but I believe the proper term for correcting someone when being wrong yourself is called an "Epic Fail"

And a grammatical error should not be basis to invalidate someone's argument. We are not here to write essay papers, some here are more meticulous than others, some also type faster and thus a bit more prone to errors in spelling etc etc

If the message can still be delivered and understood then it's worth taking into account. To claim high ground on the basis that there was a grammatical error is absurdity at it's finest and to further make such a claim while getting the facts wrong is typically subject to a "Fail" image reply.


I use AB all the time for more than just GW games, however it is the one I use it the most for. And not just 40K, but WFB, Epic, etc. Most of the data files support the model characteristics, (which most of us know by heart anyway), costs and FOC. In general, the special rules and details are referenced by the page number in the codex. In the end, the toolkit for AB will still allow any enthusiast to create data files of their own. And if the files go underground, you'll just have to find and torrent them instead of get them freshly loaded via the AB interface, (which is really snazzy). Sure, it's GW's IP, but after all this time to suddenly come out an clamp down seems a bit harsh and out of the blue.

Unless as everyone has stated they are preparing their own offering to complete. I think most of us can remember their last offerings and how UTTERLY ****E they were. I say offerings as in typical GW style, they put out 2, one for the heroes of the imperium and one for the enemies. Really? Hell, why didn't they just publish ONE FOR EACH CODEX?!?!?

Ok, I'll throttle back on this. After over 3 decades as a hobbyist and more than half that time playing GW games, I am still giving them my money. I don't see that changing, albeit until they get Finecast right it'll be plastics only. Still, if they publish something WORTHWHILE, I'll consider buying it. I have spent some time with my wife's iPad reviewing the current offering on the iBookstore. Lackluster is the term I would use, esp considering the price point. $3.99 or $5.99 for a 10-15pg iBook is not horrible, but $40+ for an 'interactive' codex is crazy. I can't believe I'm paying what I pay for my paper codex as it is! Still, if GW can come up with something genuinely competitive with Privateer press' offering, they may have something worth buying.

But here's where I come back to overall practice. If I buy a hardcover book, I should either get access to an eCopy or at least get a discount on one. If there is an app for army building, it should include all armies and free updates if it's purchased OR the app should be free and you have to purchase one for your army. Again, if you buy a codex, you should get a code to unlock your army for free or at a discount.

I'm all for GW giving us the tools to enjoy our hobby more and I don't mind paying for them IF THEY ARE WORTH IT. Anyone who has played Infinity knows how terrific it is to have an online Wiki to review rules and answer questions while playing. AND IT'S FREE! So is their Army Builder. Sure, Corvus Belli will some day have to change, but right now they are hungry and producing quality products for free to support their model sales. This engenders good will AND supports the company selling models, GW's ultimate MO. I just spend $70+ on a new hardcover 6th ed rulebook. The least GW could do is throw me a discount bone for an eCopy.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes...

DOUBLE POST

The other thing to consider would be for GW to actually SUPPORT AB w/ data files. Not sure how that woudl work, but it'd be a cooperative gesture...

This man speaks truth!

I completely agree IF they are serious about doing this properly and offering a quality program that is fair by not being yet another money sink for the users then by all means.

I gladly pay $40 for army builder now. If GW offers something like this that is price competitive on the same scale that we get access to every army. Or perhaps make it something like Itunes downloads where you can get access to an codex army by purchasing the data files for it for 2 or 3 dollars.

Then it would be a step in the right direction.

From my own actual experience creating AB data files is NO walk in the park...it is difficult and time consuming. Specially when you must adapt the entire game system to accomodate for special scenarios such as all these 6th ed changes adding fortifications and allies to the mix. So very few people will actually go and get their hands dirty creating their own files and finding torrents for them will prove equally challenging.

So I hope this is not seen as some opportunity to milk the cow even further with an inferior product I demand high quality and fair pricing, because I feel that is what we currently get with AB now and this should not change for the worst for those of us who enjoy using such a program.

[Verilance]

My two cents for what it is worth GW has the right to deny Army Builder the use of their IP, after all AB is using the points values and structures of each codex/ army book that GW produces as a selling point for their product without paying royalty fees to GW

whether or not it is or isn't good PR is another matter all together

I have never used AB because I find pen and paper work just as well and if I need a printout I can use a spreadsheet program or a word processing program

relying on something else to do basic calculations for simple math to me is as bad as getting someone else to paint your army

spoils the fun of the game :D

btw I suck at painting but since I play only for fun it doesn't matter to me

[Wildcard]

Since its become relevant of how people build their lists, mainly AB vs Excel (or similar) vs pen&paper:

- What method do you use
- How long does it take for you to create a list
- Do you accept Imperial Armour stuff and/or Apocalypse stuff
- Where do you play? (Tournaments, local hobbycenters, home with you friends, *insert your place here*)
- In what manner do you play? (Just for fun, with some aspects thought through (synergies, possible opposition, etc) or WAAC)
- What kind of games playerwise you play? (1vs1, 2vs1, 2v2 etc..)

----------------------------------

My personal answers:
- Army Builder
- 15 - 30mins, although sometimes i spend the whole night just splashing units on AB if i come up with fun theme
- Imperial Armour: yes, apocalypse: no
- Home with friends (mostly weekends)
- Just for fun, the more cinematic and more story driven - the better..
- Usually its 2vs1 or 2vs2, sometimes 3vs2, rarely 1vs1 (we get together, agree on the teams and start creating our armylists)

In this, the AB is good tool. Each special rule for enemys (or allys) army is easily checked, and we have couple of new to the hobby-guys. With these armybuilders inbuilt notification / error checker tool is priceless.

[Macerio]

Contributing my $0.02, I think my issue is three-fold:

(1) It's a bit unfair to come down on people for using AB as "lazy" or chiding them for not bucking it up and using pen/paper. As already mentioned a lot of forums, AB has been the way I put together a solid list when I'm unfamiliar with the new army or learn about a new army without wanting to drop $30-40 for the book. Being able to have access to such rules encourage me to buy more models, even from armies that you don't own. (Isn't that one of the selling points of Apocalypse after all?) So, it strikes me as a bit unreasonable to expect everyone to purchase more army books, although they can certainly demand it. (I can and do because I want to know what to expect/like the fluff. Also, can't justify illegal downloading anymore; officer of the courts and all that. However, I'd hazard hardly speak for the masses or common reaction here, especially with increasing GW prices and flattening increases in median incomes.)

There's also something to be said for having a list with the rules printed out on them for both newbies and when competing against someone in a tournament setting. While referring to the codex is a viable alternative, having the list and army specific-rules in a few easy pages for ease of reference when operating under a time crunch.

(2) From a legal perspective, I'm not sure GW _is_ in the right here for two reasons. (a) I'm not sure how far down the rabbit hole the product use/protection of IP goes in these cases under the doctrine of "fair use" (a thoroughly American creation, if I understand it properly, and perhaps not applicable here). (b) AB has been out for years with limited contest from GW; so I'm not sure what kind of rights GW can claim in a product that supplements their own. Might be clearer opposition to the "true" IP holder if they'd released a competitor product, but not in the absence of one.

However, this is not my area of law (as a recent graduate, I don't even know if I can claim an area of law yet) or one to which I've had more than casual experience; furthermore, this is probably under English IP law, so my limited experience is even less useful. So, if there's someone out there with an English IP backgroud, I'd like to hear your perspective.

So, at the very least, I would caution people, that even if you defend GW's right to use its IP as it wishes - which is generally beyond reasonable contest here - they might have not such a right here and it's risky to assume that they do. Because if they don't, they're just using the law to "scare" out a smaller competitor by threat of suit rather than using a competitive and well-made product to do so. A legal tactic, perhaps, but hardly one that I could approve up.

(3) From a business perspective, at least, this makes little sense to me unless they've got plans to offer a similar product that offers comparable access to multiple lists. They've tried and failed once before (apparently, he says having never tried it -- haven't heard anyone try to defend it at the very least and this board has a number of GW-defenders :P). There's another product out there that (a) does this remarkably well and (b) already has a good and loyal fan base. So, assuming that they do have the law on their side (and it's rather plausible they do), why not just extend a licence to Wolflair for some amount favorable to GW and allow use their lists and provide updates as needed?

EDIT: edited for grammar's/clarity's sake; substance is the same.

[Macerio]

And in response to Wildcard's questions:
- Both, but AB almost exclusively for tournaments and Apocalypse.
- 20-30 minutes, unless casual play.
- Only for Apocalypse; why bother trying to pretend things are balanced there, after all? :D
- All places, but usually at one or two local hobby stores.
- Mostly for fun, some tournaments here and there.
- Mostly play 1 v 1 or 2 v 2, but it varies.

[Maelstorm]

There is nothing I hate more (I know, hate is a strong word) than showing up to play at a tournament and the neckbeard across the table handing me a barely legible hand-written 40k tournament army list.

Give me a printed list with the special rules sprinked-in anytime over a pen and papet scribbled list. I don't want to spend the evening trying to interpret your handwriting...

[Defenestratus]

While I'm not entirely sure what an I-fad is (is this a new product?) isn't declaring that it will be available for both Android and Kindle Fire redundant, as the Fire is an Android device? Or do they need to say both because the Android architecture is so different between the two types that they NEED to be different (which would, of course, only substantiate GWs decision to go with iOS first).

Oh how snarky the cute iOS fanboy is.

The Fire is built off of Android. Its been heavily modified but can still run any app distributed through the Amazon App store .

The reason why they feel the need to mention it is because Kindle Fire owners don't *know* that they run Android.

[Wildcard]

(2) From a legal perspective

Macerio has a point in there.. If a company wishes to operate on a certain area / country, it must aggree to its laws. In all and every meaning.

*I was writing an example about selling firearms to another country, but i got bored of citing all the legislations etc..*

Notifiable aspects:
- In most cases legal issues are handled in the defendees (accused?) homeland. In cases where it is not like this, it involves a wide variety of diplomatic manouvers and even political threats. Most notable recent event are about piratism / copyright stuff where it has taken even year(s) to decide even where to make the hearings / trials. Yet, same legislation stuff is with the normal bussiness actions..

- So, if there is no law that forbits piratism for example, no-one on the outside that country can claim lawsuits of violations of copyright / IP. Or they can, but they will have absolutely no effect. ( Note that i am not native english speaker, and as such, i went for the easiest example i could go for without having the need to consult legislations / academic texts). But the point should be clear here.



(a) I'm not sure how far the rabbit hole product use/protection of IP goes in these cases under the doctrine of "fair use" (a thoroughly American creation, and perhaps not applicable here).

Not entirely sure what that Fair Use contains, but if a nation A has a law that lets people use IP as long as its beneficial to the ip holder, then nation B (where the original company holding IP recides) has no way of making nation As people follow the legislation of nation B. Company in nation B can however, ban the exports to that country and try to find ways not to let the products get into that country in the first place..

A rather good example here is piratism in Russia. (not all but most) companies will bring cheap games and movies (for like 5$ or less a piece) there that are region locked to combat piratism. There is even own release of movies on Russian markets, unless i remember wrong its called R5, and its a stripped down version of the actual DVD release..
----------------------------

Note that i was now talking about legislation, and not protecting or assaulting any IP holders / leeching benefiters..

[wittdooley]

Oh how snarky the cute iOS fanboy is.

Why does "fanboi" get tossed around when someone likes something more than the thing you like? I don't get it. I have a PC. If I did any "real" computer gaming I'd use a PC for that. But I don't.


The Fire is built off of Android. Its been heavily modified but can still run any app distributed through the Amazon App store .

The reason why they feel the need to mention it is because Kindle Fire owners don't *know* that they run Android.

So the programming would need to be different to put something on the Fire than it would the Galaxy Tab? Interesting.

[Tynskel]

Why does "fanboi" get tossed around when someone likes something more than the thing you like? I don't get it. I have a PC. If I did any "real" computer gaming I'd use a PC for that. But I don't.



So the programming would need to be different to put something on the Fire than it would the Galaxy Tab? Interesting.

you are a fan boi for stating PC. PC stands for Politically Correct, right? ;)

[steelynx]

Seems to me a really evil move on GWs part would be to buy up wolflair and neutter it to where you can no longer use any files but those published by GW. Then make a file for each codex and charge seperatly for everything.

Not only would they be getting a working application but they would also be deny the same tool to all competitor's games.

[Cpt Codpiece]

Seems to me a really evil move on GWs part would be to buy up wolflair and neutter it to where you can no longer use any files but those published by GW. Then make a file for each codex and charge seperatly for everything.

Not only would they be getting a working application but they would also be deny the same tool to all competitor's games.

or they could just buy a licence with wolfair that states wolfair produce an army builder programme that still has the editing functionality (for print outs and fonts etc) but can only accept signed data files and sell/include a code with each dex.

this way wolfair would still get ££$$ and GW would not have to worry about public availability of the datafiles.

but then again there is nothing stopping user created files on the standard AB (and why should there be), people will find a way to distribute the files no matter what, be they user files or re-signed 'official' files

[the jeske]

Why does "fanboi" get tossed around when someone likes something more than the thing you like? I don't get it. I have a PC. If I did any "real" computer gaming I'd use a PC for that. But I don't.
because when you call someone a boy you automaticly put the dude lower then yourself . a child , someone whos word is not taken seriously . After someone calls you a boy it doesnt matter what arguments your going to use and what claims you make . You already lost . Easy way to win a argument too and bonus thing is it works in all cultures doesnt matter , if your western ,eastern, far eastern , middle east . always works .





A rather good example here is piratism in Russia. (not all but most) companies will bring cheap games and movies (for like 5$ or less a piece) there that are region locked to combat piratism. There is even own release of movies on Russian markets, unless i remember wrong its called R5, and its a stripped down version of the actual DVD release..
yep . but its far more "civilised" right now . I remember back in the early 90s the first thing we would do after a new shipment has arrived out our FLGS is to take out the models out of the boxs and make our own .
But the point stands , no company can force a normal country [like china or Russia] to do anything . they can force smaller ones [what GW did to Oz land] or when both the country of the seller and the buyer are under the same jurisdiction[like EU for example].



Give me a printed list with the special rules sprinked-in anytime over a pen and papet scribbled list. I don't want to spend the evening trying to interpret your handwriting...
wait . so you dont learn what other codex and rules do ? how do you prepare for tournaments , how do you test without knowing what other builds do ?

[Defenestratus]

So the programming would need to be different to put something on the Fire than it would the Galaxy Tab? Interesting.

No it would not have to be different in any meaningful way. You could upload the same app to both the Play Store and the Amazon Store and have them both work with either the fire or the gtab.

[The Madman]

I always saw Army builder as a dodgy product, its pretty much worthless without the support of outside data writers who are no matter which way you cut it doing this illigally.

[Memnon]

What is interesting for me is when I start thinking about all the kits I bought BECAUSE of AB. Late nights playing around with AB just for the sheer fun of it and then the next day going out and buying a couple of kits.

Like I said, it has been a symbiotic relationship.

Hopefully GW has in mind to offer a good and efficient alternative. If not, then Arrrr matey, bring on the pirates!

[eldargal]

I just use a pen and some paper.:rolleyes:

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

At least you can't lose a pen and a piece of paper if your hard drive crashes...

[Psychosplodge]

and the batteries don't run out mid game...

[Wolfshade]

Like I said, it has been a symbiotic relationship.
I'm not sure it is symbiotic, Wolflair get sales as people use their software with thirdparty data files for GW's game systems. So Wolflair makes revenue based on other peoples work, initially GW for creating the game and then those 3rd party people who allegdly violate GW's copywright/IP. Such a relationship I would suggest is slightly more parasitic than symbiotic.
What does GW get from people using AB? some sales from people buying units because their stats look good? Well, if you look in the codex (which you have to buy) then you would see the same thing, so really this symbiosis obsfucating codex sales (or leeching if you prefer).

All these paper lists - won't somebody think of the environment?!

[Psychosplodge]

All these paper lists - won't somebody think of the environment?!


I do, I think, Isn't it great i'm not using something else with lithium ion batteries in it...

[Wolfshade]

I forgot my sarcasm tags :(

[Psychosplodge]

doh

[Macerio]

wait . so you dont learn what other codex and rules do ? how do you prepare for tournaments , how do you test without knowing what other builds do ?

(1) It's not just learning the other codex/rules, it's learning them well enough to play against them in a time sensitive environment. Regardless, even if I know the builds, I might not know the ins and outs of a codex so well as to know every little detail of every possible permutation. So, taking for granted it would of course be better if I did, if there are any rules issues, the lists are a much more convenient recourse than the codex.

Besides, have you tried to decode a gamer's handwriting? Not pleasant.

(2) Even if I know the rules, I might not know the math. And as someone else on another board said, the last thing I want to do in the middle of a hectic tournament environment is verify that someone can add properly...

[Defenestratus]

I just use a pen and some paper.:rolleyes:

I had to use a pen and paper to create a list on tuesday since I left my tablet at home.

It was the most horrible experience I've had in gaming since I've started playing. Flipping through pages of the codex for point values .... then my list quickly turned to chicken scratch as I decided how I didn't like how something worked and wanted to redo it. I had HQ's Troops Elites all interspersed with each other in no logical order, wargear that appeared above the unit on the list because I ran out of room on the paper to put it under-- It was horrible.

It took me 20 minutes to make a 1500 point list. In AB, I could have made that list in under 5 - have it output to my cloud drive where it would be available on any device I own for easy reference at any time in a clear, easy to read format.

There's a reason why we got rid of the horse and carriage. New technology came out that invalidated the need for it. Such is the case with pen and paper lists. If you enjoy making your lists in an antiquated and inefficient manner, then more power to you... but don't act surprised when I scoff at having to read your 100% proprietary handwritten scratch.

[Psychosplodge]

You could just write out every unit you own on a postcard each, and then combine the cards until you're happy with them...

[eldargal]

Except that new technology has now been taken away because a company decided to exercise its rights over its IP.:p

I had to use a pen and paper to create a list on tuesday since I left my tablet at home.

It was the most horrible experience I've had in gaming since I've started playing. Flipping through pages of the codex for point values .... then my list quickly turned to chicken scratch as I decided how I didn't like how something worked and wanted to redo it. I had HQ's Troops Elites all interspersed with each other in no logical order, wargear that appeared above the unit on the list because I ran out of room on the paper to put it under-- It was horrible.

It took me 20 minutes to make a 1500 point list. In AB, I could have made that list in under 5 - have it output to my cloud drive where it would be available on any device I own for easy reference at any time in a clear, easy to read format.

There's a reason why we got rid of the horse and carriage. New technology came out that invalidated the need for it. Such is the case with pen and paper lists. If you enjoy making your lists in an antiquated and inefficient manner, then more power to you... but don't act surprised when I scoff at having to read your 100% proprietary handwritten scratch.

[Macerio]

Except that new technology has now been taken away because a company decided to exercise its rights over its IP.:p

So maybe we could make fun of GW for not providing an adequate substitute yet for something that coexisted with and supplemented their product. "Legally able" doesn't mean smart PR or sound business. :rolleyes:

[Defenestratus]

Except that new technology has now been taken away because a company decided to exercise its rights over its IP.:p

You really think that GW is going to be able to make the army files disappear if they really want to? Not likely. They'll always be available somewhere, just like all the rest of their copyrighted information that is available to all those who are looking for it.

They might be able to squash "legitimate" or casual AB users, but those who want the data will always be able to find it.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, let me use my powers of Divination. (deduction)

1. GW have gone all technological now, we're all aware of what iPads are capable of
2. Out of the blue they have restricted this company from producing this file
3. GW realise that THEY could produce this product and charge for it
4. ????
5. PROFIT FOR GW

[Macerio]

Well, let me use my powers of Divination. (deduction)

1. GW have gone all technological now, we're all aware of what iPads are capable of
2. Out of the blue they have restricted this company from producing this file
3. GW realise that THEY could produce this product and charge for it
4. ????
5. PROFIT FOR GW

I like that you left out the fourth step: GW makes a competent product that people will actually buy. :p

(To be fair, any amount of money going to GW will still be a net gain to them. But as a consumer, going to be a mite pissed if the replacement product they offer is of a substantially inferior quality than the one that currently exists or if it requires a separate piece of tech not even made by that hobby company to make use of it.)

[Memnon]

I'm not sure it is symbiotic, Wolflair get sales as people use their software with thirdparty data files for GW's game systems. So Wolflair makes revenue based on other peoples work, initially GW for creating the game and then those 3rd party people who allegdly violate GW's copywright/IP. Such a relationship I would suggest is slightly more parasitic than symbiotic.
What does GW get from people using AB? some sales from people buying units because their stats look good? Well, if you look in the codex (which you have to buy) then you would see the same thing, so really this symbiosis obsfucating codex sales (or leeching if you prefer).

All these paper lists - won't somebody think of the environment?!

I had access to the codex, but I didn't start buying and putting together models until the ease of AB. And I'm not alone. Especially for a new player the codex is daunting and AB is very easy. That $40 I spent on AB is the reason I've spent over $1000 on kits now. I think that's a pretty good deal for GW. I wound up buying the codex on top of that, actually as with the "tutorial" that AB provided the codex actually makes sense now.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n639/Memnon_Adeptas/Alpha%20Legion/meme-1.jpg

[Maelstorm]

Before I purchased AB I built my own spreadsheets in Excel for Space Marines - with all of their possible options it was a HUGE pain the backside to manually type into the file. The HQ selections alone were larger than a couple of the other slots combined plus conditional options made it more complicated. Separate tabs for HQ, Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support required you to jump around to add units. Once complete, using copy and paste to put all of the final selections on a single sheet to print out was another tedious task.

In another file, with little to no options for ANY unit my 3rd edition Necron single page spreadsheet worked extremely well!

AB is the reason I have 6 Ironclads instead of just 3, 9 Land Speeders instead of just a few, and 3 Baal Predators, 3 Vindicators, 3 Thunderfire Cannons and 3 Predators instead of just 1 or 2 of each. I tinkered in AB building crazy "themed" armies and then purchased the models to match. Without AB, I would have thought about it, but never gotten around to making the purchases. Seeing the army builds in black & white helps motivate me to go out and pick up the models to match. Without AB, GW would see thousands less of my gaming $$.

When I show up to play at the shop I ask my buddies if they want to play against an assault based army, a shooty army or a balanced army. I have AB lists for all 3 printed up at 1000, 1500, 1850 and 2000 points in a folder - I also have copies of them as *.pdf files on my laptop, phone and tablet. 12 army lists researched, designed, printed-up and e-mailed to my portable devices (plus my work PC :D ) in under 45 minutes using Army Builder.

Even if old man GW stumbles around and finally poops out an Army-Builder equivalent for the I-fad, I will continue to use the original AB and search for and post files for their software.

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/129200147051164815.jpg

[wittdooley]

Before I purchased AB I built my own spreadsheets in Excel for Space Marines - with all of their possible options it was a HUGE pain the backside to manually type into the file. The HQ selections alone were larger than a couple of the other slots combined plus conditional options made it more complicated. Separate tabs for HQ, Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support required you to jump around to add units. Once complete, using copy and paste to put all of the final selections on a single sheet to print out was another tedious task.

In another file, with little to no options for ANY unit my 3rd edition Necron single page spreadsheet worked extremely well!

AB is the reason I have 6 Ironclads instead of just 3, 9 Land Speeders instead of just a few, and 3 Baal Predators, 3 Vindicators, 3 Thunderfire Cannons and 3 Predators instead of just 1 or 2 of each. I tinkered in AB building crazy "themed" armies and then purchased the models to match. Without AB, I would have thought about it, but never gotten around to making the purchases. Seeing the army builds in black & white helps motivate me to go out and pick up the models to match. Without AB, GW would see thousands less of my gaming $$.

When I show up to play at the shop I ask my buddies if they want to play against an assault based army, a shooty army or a balanced army. I have AB lists for all 3 printed up at 1000, 1500, 1850 and 2000 points in a folder - I also have copies of them as *.pdf files on my laptop, phone and tablet. 12 army lists researched, designed, printed-up and e-mailed to my portable devices (plus my work PC :D ) in under 45 minutes using Army Builder.

Even if old man GW stumbles around and finally poops out an Army-Builder equivalent for the I-fad, I will continue to use the original AB and search for and post files for their software.

Well that's pretty intense.

So what version of Army Builder do you all use on your Android Tablets? Is there a specific version that works best?

[Deadlift]

I just use a pen and some paper.:rolleyes:

This ^

There's nothing quite like scribbling, crossing out and writing a list onto a good old notepad, many a shopping spree has starting at this very point for me.

[wittdooley]

This ^

There's nothing quite like scribbling, crossing out and writing a list onto a good old notepad, many a shopping spree has starting at this very point for me.

But....but...that's just so inefficient. Read the whole thing. Bah. Cliffs notes or someone else's summary will do just fine. Sitting down with a book. How antiquated can you be. Bah. Bah. How can you possible have 8 lists ready at a moments notice if you write it out by hand?!?!. Blasphemer.

[Maelstorm]

So what version of Army Builder do you all use on your Android Tablets? Is there a specific version that works best?

<lol> Don't be a doofus.

" I also have copies of them as *.pdf files on my laptop, phone and tablet."

You can use the *.pdf export function to transfer your AB list to just about any device.

When you purchase AB you can put it on 2 computers. I have a copy on my desktop and my laptop. For everything else I just export a *.pdf to reference.

[Macerio]

But....but...that's just so inefficient. Read the whole thing. Bah. Cliffs notes or someone else's summary will do just fine. Sitting down with a book. How antiquated can you be. Bah. Bah. How can you possible have 8 lists ready at a moments notice if you write it out by hand?!?!. Blasphemer.

Your sarcasm has no effect on me, sir. I've seen the handwriting of many other gamers; it's like deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphics without the benefit of a Rosetta Stone.

[wittdooley]

You can use the *.pdf export function to transfer your AB list to just about any device.

When you purchase AB you can put it on 2 computers. I have a copy on my desktop and my laptop. For everything else I just export a *.pdf to reference.

I know :D I have it as well. Just wasn't sure if AB had come out for the Droid and I didn't know about it because I use it so infrequently :rolleyes:

I think some of ya'll play a very different game of 40k than I play. I spend as little time with Army Builder as possible; I couldn't imagine min-maxing lists like it sounds like many of you do. Quite honestly, I think I've actually done more Excel/Pen & Paper lists in the past year or so than even using AB.

I used AB for Adepticon because you pretty much had to.

Call my crazy, call me old fashioned, but I typically buy the models I read about and either A) like the fluff of, or B) like how they look. GW has gotten tons more money from me for making cool looking shyte than for anything else. But then again, when it comes to vehicles in particlar, I usually buy enough of them to have one of every variant, and if possible, in sets of three.

[Defenestratus]

Well that's pretty intense.

So what version of Army Builder do you all use on your Android Tablets? Is there a specific version that works best?

I use two solutions.

I use my PC with AB to make lists, then save the mobile output (HTML) to my Google Drive folder on my PC. This synchs it to my cloud storage space and becomes instantly available on my phones and tablet and the store computer.

If I need to use AB from my tablet for some reason, i use splashtop HD to remote desktop into my PC at home and use the same process. When it saves to my Gdrive I exit splashtop and go open it up from the cloud. Its not ideal but it works. I typically only do this when I need to make a change to a list I've already saved.

Finally, if I need to do something from scratch on the go, I'll use Battlescribe Pro.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.battlescribe.rostereditorpro&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsIm5ldC5iY XR0bGVzY3JpYmUucm9zdGVyZWRpdG9ycHJvIl0.

No tablet mode (yet) but it works just fine on the tablet in portrait mode and of course on the phone it works great.

[Maelstorm]

Cool idea! I hadn't thought to put the files up on the cloud!! Thanks!!

[Macerio]

Alternatively, you can put lists on Dropbox (https://www.dropbox.com/) and then open them on your iPad or other tablet.

[Wolfshade]

That $40 I spent on AB is the reason I've spent over $1000 on kits now. I think that's a pretty good deal for GW.
That may be the case, but if AB didn't exist you don't know how your spending patterns would have been.
Also, you have the inescapable fact that the unlicensed use of GW's IP is (at least in their opinion) against the law. It is equivalent of saying sorry GAP I stole a t-shirt from you, but I quite like the way it looks so I'm going to buy my wardrobe from you.

[Lexington]

If I need to use AB from my tablet for some reason, i use splashtop HD to remote desktop into my PC at home and use the same process. When it saves to my Gdrive I exit splashtop and go open it up from the cloud. Its not ideal but it works.
This is why I like to just save everything as HTML, pop it up on my webspace, then immediately access it from either the phone or iPad, then just leave it up for the duration. Easy and always accessible. :)

[Defenestratus]

Alternatively, you can put lists on Dropbox (https://www.dropbox.com/) and then open them on your iPad or other tablet.

Google Drive == DropBox but better if you already use other google services.


This is why I like to just save everything as HTML, pop it up on my webspace, then immediately access it from either the phone or iPad, then just leave it up for the duration. Easy and always accessible.

Lexipunkin -

I used to upload it to my personal webspace, but putting it on the cloud is just so much more *easy*.

[Defenestratus]

. It is equivalent of saying sorry GAP I stole a t-shirt from you, but I quite like the way it looks so I'm going to buy my wardrobe from you.

Actually - its more of the equivalent of buying a few shreds of cloth that make up that GAP t-shirt.

You can't use AB by itself to PLAY the game. You still need the codex for that - especially now that they've replaced all of the rule footnotes with references to codex page numbers.

The army list data files simply don't have all of the rules and information you need to actually play a game.

[Wolfshade]

Actually - its more of the equivalent of buying a few shreds of cloth that make up that GAP t-shirt.

You can't use AB by itself to PLAY the game. You still need the codex for that - especially now that they've replaced all of the rule footnotes with references to codex page numbers.

The army list data files simply don't have all of the rules and information you need to actually play a game.
I thought some of them did have the rules.
Ah well, we all know where I was going with that

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I agree with Wolf. The point remains that it is illegal, no matter the scale of it.

[Psychosplodge]

I agree with Wolf. The point remains that it is illegal, no matter the scale of it.
Exactly, One of my friends said to me "you should download this app to rip music for your phone" and they looked at me appalled like I'd kicked their guinea pig when I said "I pay for music"....

[gcsmith]

Exactly, One of my friends said to me "you should download this app to rip music for your phone" and they looked at me appalled like I'd kicked their guinea pig when I said "I pay for music"....

This reminds me of a friend who said he was moral when he pirated games going, "If I like it I'll pay for it later."

Which is rubbish. Eve games you don't like you shouldn't play for free, how is that fair to the developers. Also what happens if you forget. It's like atm, I can't afford to buy adobe premier pro, but if I had it, I could improve my youtube channel, but I refuse to Pirate. Even if I suffer, i should try and earn money for the Software. I don't see why I should buy now pay later.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

This is why I have racks upon racks full of CD's, because I PAY for music. Musicians and Actors deserve that money, that's their job. If people stole our materials for our Plumbers then we'd be angry, so why should Musicians suffer the same fate?
I am proud to pay for things.

EDIT: It's also why I'm extremely venomous to people who constantly slag off GW.

[Wolfshade]

Exactly, though I wouldn't necessarily say that a pirated game means a lost sale.

[Psychosplodge]

This reminds me of a friend who said he was moral when he pirated games going, "If I like it I'll pay for it later."

Which is rubbish. Eve games you don't like you shouldn't play for free, how is that fair to the developers. Also what happens if you forget. It's like atm, I can't afford to buy adobe premier pro, but if I had it, I could improve my youtube channel, but I refuse to Pirate. Even if I suffer, i should try and earn money for the Software. I don't see why I should buy now pay later.
While I generally agree with you, the difference is that you have probably heard the music on youtube or the radio or somewhere and know you like it.

With the games though proper demos aren't really available anymore, so while it's not something I'd personally do (as well as the legality issue, I wouldn't trust torrent sites either lol), as long as they do actually buy most of the ones they like and delete the ones they supposedly don't. I can see the logic in it.

Edit: And also as Wolfie says, it isn't necessarily a lost sale...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I hadn't heard any of Living Things before it had released, remember, at home I don't have the net so I can't see things on Youtube.
I buy CD's on a whim and when they're released. There's something about having a physical item that I find appealing.

[Psychosplodge]

Most of the stuff I've bought in the last few years is after I've seen the band live, so the albums are generally already out...

Though I did buy an album on a kickstarter recently, that was good...

[Wolfshade]

Do you remember when music magazines also included a mix cd, like Metal Hammer's "Brutal Bunch"?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I used to spend all of my money on gigs, loved going to them.
I'm going to have to go to another gig soon.

[Psychosplodge]

Do you remember when music magazines also included a mix cd, like Metal Hammer's "Brutal Bunch"?

Yes, it's how I discovered the likes of soil, turisas, and probably many others lol

[gcsmith]

actually a pirated game is in fact a lost sale, because to of tried it otherwise you would of had to buy it. I agree companies should just release demos and remove any crap excuse to pirate.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But I get demos from XBL? Is my Xbox lying to me?

[Psychosplodge]

Not necessarily, as you wouldn't necessarily, have been interested enough to actually pay for it,where as if you are the type that does this, you might now buy something you wouldn't have before.

Doesn't matter though, STEAM SALE


But I get demos from XBL? Is my Xbox lying to me?

Not for real games though, Demos of strategy games never give you the full experience (How did I end up defending a form of piracy lol)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Steam Sale for the f'ing win. :D

Also Psycho. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg)

[Wolfshade]

Not necessarily, as you wouldn't necessarily, have been interested enough to actually pay for it,where as if you are the type that does this, you might now buy something you wouldn't have before.
Exactly, game X is out, I am not interested enough/like it enough to buy it, but if I were to pirate it I would play it, possibly.
Not that I would actually pirate any games you understand as it is illegal/immoral/fatening.
Steam Sale - the number 1 reason not to pirate, brilliant discounts = cheap gaming. I usually wait for games to become "old" before buying them, afterall £40+ is a silly amount to pay for a game, £20 not so bad £10 even better. There are of course exceptions to this general rule of thumb.

[Psychosplodge]

Exactly, game X is out, I am not interested enough/like it enough to buy it, but if I were to pirate it I would play it, possibly.
Not that I would actually pirate any games you understand as it is illegal/immoral/fatening.
Steam Sale - the number 1 reason not to pirate, brilliant discounts = cheap gaming. I usually wait for games to become "old" before buying them, afterall £40+ is a silly amount to pay for a game, £20 not so bad £10 even better. There are of course exceptions to this general rule of thumb.
Pretty much this ^

Though the steam sale is evil, still kicking myself bought audiosurf Wednesday, sale starts Thursday ¬_¬

[Wolfshade]

Time to power up the old steam app for my phone and start browsing, but damn, why did I need to start redecorating, now instead of buying games I am going to have to spend money on paint/wallpaper/floor sigh

[Psychosplodge]

If you play in the dark you don't need to redecorate..

[Wolfshade]

Apparently, the man den is becoming a study :(
But Heroes VI is in the sale 50% off

Portal 2 £3.74, might be time to pick that bad boy up
Shogun 2 £7.49 hmm

just need to convince the wife

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Dude! Don't lose the man den! :(

[Psychosplodge]

Shogun two was disappointing, If you've got empire and rome and medievil 2 you've not really missed owt,
rome two's apparently in development...

I'm waiting for 75% off L4D2 so I can get our lass playing with me lol should be fun...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

L4D2 is an epic game, when I get online (mid august) I am buying it again. :D

[Psychosplodge]

It's much more epic on pc because you can get custom content...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I know, I used to play it on PC. :D

[Wolfshade]

Fingers crossed for a flash sale of Skyrim

[Psychosplodge]

B*stards that would make me buy it, I'm going to expo and bloodstock in the next four weeks....
Why's it all fall together...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Gods be praised.

[Wolfshade]

My mate has been bugging me since portal 2 came out to get that, now I have no excuses

[Psychosplodge]

yeah I'm going to have to get it now too, was waiting for the ps3 version to drop, for the free the steam copy, but now I can just get the pc version cheap...

[Defenestratus]

I agree with Wolf. The point remains that it is illegal, no matter the scale of it.

Speaking as someone who also derides and shames people who steal music and movies - AB data files are completely different IMO. Whereas stealing music is like walking into a music store, picking up a CD and walking out the door - the same cannot be said for the AB datafiles and codexes.

GW doesn't itself have a product that does what it is that AB does (not yet anyways). I'm not stealing anything from GW, I'm not denying them revenue from any sale since they are not competing in the digital army list marketplace.

I look at it as buying tires for my truck.

I've already paid Toyota for the tires that came with it. They let me use the truck - however to drive on the beach, I need better tires. So I pay someone besides toyota to put better tires on - tires that toyota doesn't themselves sell.

GW already has my money for the codexes. A lot of my money. There is no competing product from GW that does what it is that the AB datafile authors provide.

I understand that people think that the INFORMATION inside the datafiles is GW's and in itself is stealing - but like I've said before - its not complete. Its like a scaffolding.

[Psychosplodge]

What is actually in the files?

[Defenestratus]

What is actually in the files?

Unit names, point values, stats and references to the rules.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

In that case Defenestratus I withdraw my objection, I respect you and have no desire to insult you.

[Psychosplodge]

Is that not essentially a fluffless codex?

Or is it unusable without a codex?

[lattd]

Im guessing stat lines which would be copyright, and troop names.

[Wolfshade]

GW doesn't itself have a product that does what it is that AB does (not yet anyways). I'm not stealing anything from GW, I'm not denying them revenue from any sale since they are not competing in the digital army list marketplace.

So it's ok to private music in the Ogg Vorbis format because they currently only sell in mp3 format?

or It's ok to pirate a book via a pdf if the publisher only sells books not digital versions?

It doesn't matter if a product has a digital version or no, it is still using someone elses IP. If I print a digital-only book and distribute that it via hard copies then I am still violating the orginal creators' rights.

[Defenestratus]

So it's ok to private music in the Ogg Vorbis format because they currently only sell in mp3 format?

or It's ok to pirate a book via a pdf if the publisher only sells books not digital versions?

It doesn't matter if a product has a digital version or no, it is still using someone elses IP. If I print a digital-only book and distribute that it via hard copies then I am still violating the orginal creators' rights.

Thats a good point - but still moot. You can freely convert any of the legally obtained digital formats to your desired digital format with no loss of value.

If GW does succeed in squashing the datafile hosts (they wont, its a hopeless endeavor in the long run) then people will essentially have to do this themselves - convert their codex to datafiles themselves.

And plus, pirating a book or a song in a different format is still obtaining the content in its entirety, to be used in the same way as the legal owner's "competing" product.

Data files are not codexes and codexes aren't data files. You cannot buy just AB/Datafiles and be able to play a game of 40k. You cannot buy a codex and be able to create a digital army list.


Or is it unusable without a codex?

Well, you tell me. Sample output below:


Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear... (p74 WH40K)
The Black Rage (p4 C:BA)
The Death Company (p4 C:BA)

[Psychosplodge]

Thats a good point - but still moot. You can freely convert any of the legally obtained digital formats to your desired digital format with no loss of value.

I don't think you can here, while they don't generally pursue people for ripping their own music to hdd, I think it is technically illegal to change the format of any copies you make even for personal use.






Well, you tell me. Sample output below:

So possibly, which IMO would make it a form of piracy. Sorry.

[Wolfshade]

That's a good point - but still moot. You can freely convert any of the legally obtained digital formats to your desired digital format with no loss of value.

Not strictly true, France for example debated a bill on the legality of music file conversion. If you buy a particular format all your rights are are to use the data as provided, unless you have the license to edit it any way. If I buy an Xbox game I have no licesnse to play it on my pc/mac/toaster if the data is unreadable by my converter. Similiarly, ripping music from CDs to another format is technically illegal in the UK.


If GW does succeed in squashing the datafile hosts (they won't, it's a hopeless endeavor in the long run) then people will essentially have to do this themselves - convert their codex to datafiles themselves.
I agree, but recreating the datafiles themselves for your own personal use, from your own codex then that is legal usage, but if I was too lazy to do it and you gave me your Necron file and I did own the codex that would still violate the "personal use" requirement.


And plus, pirating a book or a song in a different format is still obtaining the content in its entirety, to be used in the same way as the legal owner's "competing" product.
Data files are not codexes and codexes aren't data files. You cannot buy just AB/Datafiles and be able to play a game of 40k. You cannot buy a codex and be able to create a digital army list.
I would agree with you paritally hear, they are not the same thing, but your intent is the same, they are a tool to enable you to use a particular army in the game, using the rules as perscribed by GW.

[Defenestratus]

So possibly, which IMO would make it a form of piracy. Sorry.

And they shall Know No Fear:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620012a

The Black Rage:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod680010a

The Death Company:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod680010a

How is that any different than what AB is doing?

[Kawauso]

And they shall Know No Fear:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620012a

The Black Rage:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod680010a

The Death Company:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod680010a

How is that any different than what AB is doing?

I agree.

The difference that matters to GW is, unfortunately, that AB is a product one purchases, so someone is indirectly making money off of (a very small part of) their IP. It's silly, but there it is.

[Macerio]

And they shall Know No Fear:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620012a

The Black Rage:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod680010a

The Death Company:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod680010a

How is that any different than what AB is doing?

Uh oh - you now owe GW $12.03. They accept cash, check, and firstborn.

[Psychosplodge]

And they shall Know No Fear:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1620012a


That's directly referencing the rule book so you don't need the codex?
not really the same as providing pts stats and relevent rules that apply.

The other two sketchy, but like someone said, under English law they have to be seen to take steps to protect their IP.

It's definitely on the borderline, but which side of it who knows?

[Wolfshade]

There is nothing wrong with referencing any body of work copyrighted or whatever. The difference is how it is done. If I reproduce great swathes of another body of work then that is not acceptable, the datafiles are derivative works and so are covered by GW's IP (allegedly)

[Kawauso]

That's directly referencing the rule book so you don't need the codex?
not really the same as providing pts stats and relevent rules that apply.

The other two sketchy, but like someone said, under English law they have to be seen to take steps to protect their IP.

It's definitely on the borderline, but which side of it who knows?

Virtually no rules actually show up in army builder, apart from stat lines.

If you right-click on them (the rules), they usually give you a page number in a codex or the BRB to reference.

[Ayaxs]

I use BattleScribe, get some files on the net, and rewrite them with every rule from my codex, its a lot of work, but it pays not having to open the codex everytime you need the wording of a rule.

[xilton]

Other then making money on GW back, I think this hides the fact that with all these new books for IPad, I would have a tendency to believe that they will be doing a comeback with their own version (hoping it's much better then the one they did a couple years back) and AB is the competitor. They probably hadn't bothered yet because it help them out selling and stuff but if they do come back with a better version of what they had before.... well you see me coming :)

[Macerio]

Other then making money on GW back, I think this hides the fact that with all these new books for IPad, I would have a tendency to believe that they will be doing a comeback with their own version (hoping it's much better then the one they did a couple years back) and AB is the competitor. They probably hadn't bothered yet because it help them out selling and stuff but if they do come back with a better version of what they had before.... well you see me coming :)

Agreed. I'd be interested to see what GW comes up with, if this is the route they're taking, though I remain skeptical that it won't be much more expensive and/or less useful.

[MMZMarlboroman]

I own a Ipad and Ii bought the Codex:space Marines and I am quite happy with it.
With the recent ibook update to 6th EDIT a new button appeared on the unit information pages.
the button doesn't work yet but i am betting it will soon or they
will have an app that works in conjunction with it.

Picture on my blog (http://minipen-dragon.blogspot.com/2012/07/gw-and-army-builder.html#more)

[Absolon]

The button in the electronic version of the codex seems to point strongly to a coming app that will allow you to export codex data into a GW army builder app.

[billytwix]

Battlescribe released their ios app saturday. I just strted using battle scribe on pc about a week ago and i can say i prefer the more streamline output than from armybuilder. I have yet to check out the app but i have a feeling it will be in my future and my price range. Right now its $2.99 because the developer had an issue with the free version. He is working on it however. Sure beats $50 for a digi dex (after a few annual price increases im sure it will get there) per army. Not sure id spend that times the 20 armies i own. Id rather buy figs and get some games in.