Why do Marines sometimes have the Chapter Symbol on Left Shoulder, sometimes Right?

[Chris*ta]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Basically, marines most often have their chapter symbol on their left shoulderpad and a squad type marker (and squad number) on their right shoulderpad.

A Mk 6 marine (who has a studded left shoulderpad) carries their chapter symbol on their right. (I know, sometimes with a squad marker behind).

A terminator carries their chapter symbol on their right shoulderpad and the crux terminatus (effectively a squad marker) on their left.

But a veteran in power armour (who remember, presumably also wears terminator armour sometimes, or, at the very least, is entitled to) wears his chapter symbol on the left and a squad type marker (the crux terminatus) on his right.

I know in terms of real world history. The Mk 6 marines were sculpted first, then the terminators, then the Mk 7 marines (iirc, were there one-off exceptions?). So in terms of real world history: Why did they sculpt (okay, technically paint/draw) the Mk 7 marines with their shoulderpads back to front compared to the earlier terminators?

And in terms of fluff, why do the terminators wear their shoulderpads back to front compared to Mk 7 marines?

[Chris*ta]

I just reread that and I didn't confuse left and right anywhere! Yay for me!

Also, I had a thought while writing it regarding the fluff.

The crux terminatus is a symbol that represents a marines training with terminator armour.

But when it's on a terminator suit, it's supposed to have:
a) a piece of the Emperor's armour in it and also
b) a power field generator that contributes to the armour's invulnerable save.

This means (I'm theorising at this point):
a) it's far more significant than just the squad marker worn by other marines, even by veterans in power armour, and
b) it's a functional part of the armour suit, not just a symbol, so maybe the placement is functional.

I can't remember where these are from exactly, though.

Anyone else have a specific idea on the sources of the above and (hopefully) some hard info on either of my theories? Or another explanation?

[Wolfshade]

Here is going to be a kicker, how many of the pictures have been flipped horizontally because the composition looks better that way so that the icons are switched without a purpose.

[Denzark]

Someone with Insignum Astartes can probably answer this...

[Chris*ta]

Here is going to be a kicker, how many of the pictures have been flipped horizontally because the composition looks better that way so that the icons are switched without a purpose.

Not many, I think. My memory from back in the day is that it's always been the way I described it in the original post.

And I read WD fairly regularly from about 120 to 200 (sadly, given away by my mother :( ) and still have 1st ed Space Hulk and Advanced Space Crusade, so I'm confident about my memory (in this regard at least ;) ).


Someone with Insignum Astartes can probably answer this...

I don't have it, have thought about getting it, but then seen that Black Library uses the same crazy conversion rate into Ozzie dollars as the rest of GW >_<

If anyone does have it, I'm interested if the question's answered there. Oh, and if it's worth getting ;)

[magickbk]

The easy explanation is the least enjoyable. Back in the Rogue Trader days, Space Marines were not the regimented, disciplined, monastic forces we know today. They were more like elite bands of mercenaries. The Eavy Metal examples frequently had mottos and sayings painted all over their armor.

When the game went Grimdark, GW developed all the iconography rules, but much artwork and older models didn't follow these patterns. Where necessary, in fluff, stories were made up about units or individuals being permitted to change their pattern due to amazing tragedy or bravery, or failure to adhere to the Codex Astartes, but that solution doesn't cover everything.

Also, GW used to employ contract artists who were not always aware of the rules when making the artwork.

Basically, it's a combination of mistakes and retcon. So, the rules you specified are sound, but are broken frequently, especially if it is something older.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the crux terminatus, an honour given to the 1st company veterans when they are inducted into 1st. it is the symbol of their status

only a captains crux has pieces of the emperors armour in it (notice the captains crux is larger than the normal one, even srg ones).
as for the shoulder issue, one marker set in fluff recently is the horus heresy, all armour MKs before V were the same (same as mkVII), then when MK V were created as an adhoc repair, it may have been to mark loyalist from traitor.

also as vertrans only have 2 types of squad, both being vet squads one in pow one in term, until recent introductions of stern and vang. even then they only differ in equips.

obviously only codex chapters frollow the codex astartes

[Chris*ta]

@ magickbk

The iconography rules were always pretty set. The Space Marine painting guide in WD 119 (I believe it was reprinted from the Space Marine Paint Set) described iconography that's very close to today. Except for the fact that it was before GW introduced Mk 7/any armour with symbols on both shoulderpads.

Regarding contract artists, the 'Eavy Metal team and the sculptors were in-house since WH40k was introduced, or at least from shortly after.

"The Eavy Metal examples frequently had mottos and sayings painted all over their armor."
Not really in the period that's relevant to this question. And certainly not when they introduced the Mk 7 sculpts. Actually, I'd say they had less than they do now, because the marines' minis back then didn't have the scrollwork sculpted onto them that is relatively common now.

@ Cpt Codpiece

The fluff varies on that point:

The left shoulder pad of a suit of Terminator armour carries the large solid stone icon known as the Crux Terminatus. This doubles as a tactical symbol and a revered honour badge.

Each Crux is reputed to have bound within its core a tiny fragment of the battle armour worn by the Emperor during his epic duel with Horus the Arch-Traitor ten thousand years ago.

I remember it being stated somewhere, (I'll say it was the article in WD 136 on Mks of armour) that the studded left shoulderpad is because a marine needs heavier armour on his right shoulderpad because it's exposed when he's firing, so, to save on resources that were scarce because of the Heresy they used cheaper materials on the left shoulderpad, which required the different layers to be bonded together with the studs. And yes, I know that the LEFT shoulder would be exposed when firing, but apparently they didn't.

Oh, and technically there are four types of squads in the 1st Co.: Terminator, Terminator Assault, Vanguard and Sternguard. Though, I imagine that the terminator and sternguard, and the terminator assault and the vanguard, respectively, are the same guys and the difference is whether they remembered to pack their Sunday best ;)

I still feel like where not getting any closer to answering my two original questions. Does anyone have a copy of Insignium Astartes? Does it help answer this?

[Gotthammer]

One meta reason for the change I can think of is that when you look at a mini of a marine in a firing pose, his left shoulder is forward. As most people display their minis to be viewed from this angle it makes sense to have their identifying badge visible (say, to their foes or the 'eavy metal photographer).
It possibly also has to do with when mk.7 was introduced it was the same time as introducing the metal body / plastic arm style mini, and moulding the shoulderpads both 'clean' would have been easier as the GW plastics of the time weren't great with that sort of stuff.

As for Terminators, I'm going to go with a mix of tradition and visual balance. When the 2nd ed switch came in the Terminators were re-released with a slightly larger sized body - but there was tons of artwork around, including pics in the 2nd ed rulebooks, of old school terminators. So swapping one element only would be quite strange to say the least.
Also from a design standpoint the minis were locked in their pose quite rigidly, gun arms at 90 degrees, fists down. The crux on the left shoulder gives them visual interest on that side as everything else is smooth/flat. The right side doesn't need it as it has the gun for contrast.



I remember that insignia booklet - it came out a little after the time of the first marine army list that was reprinted in the Compendium I think, but before the Compilation and mk 7, which gave another set of identification rules (company colour chest eagles anyone?).

Magickbk's comment about mottos was talking about scrawl like 'Kil Kil Kil' and 'Death is Easy' written Aliens/Full Metal Jacket style on their armour, not scrollwork or iconography.

[Chris*ta]

Posting this stuff is making me sad for the WDs I no longer have ...

Must ... resist ... urge ... to buy ... enormous ... pile of them ... second .... hand.

[mathhammer]

CODEX CHAPTER SQUAD BADGES
The following pages show the tactical shoulder pad markings for
each of the squads within a typical M41 (41st Millennium) Codex
Chapter. These markings are displayed on the right shoulder pad of
the Marines' armour. In this example the rims of the shoulder pads
display the Company colour. The white tactical symbols indicate the
designation of the Squad and the numerals simply refer to the Squad
number within the Company.
The Codex provides for a number of variations on this basic system
and also suggests that each Chapter periodically revise its tactical
markings in order to confound the enemy. This has led to many
differences between the many Codex Chapters. It also explains why it
is that some Chapters have varied their appearance over the course
of millennia. In fact some Scholars within the Adeptus Administratum
use the changes in the Ultramarines iconography as a means of
dating ancient files and monuments. The Ultramarines are
particularly useful for this because they are the most documented
Chapter in the history of the Imperium. Even so their records are not
complete or are vague and this leads to much speculation within
scholarly circles about the exact dates for events in the distant past.

VETERANS
This Company comprises
the elite veteran's of the
Chapter. They can fight as
either Veteran Squads or as
Terminator Squads, The
Veteran Squad tactical
symbol is a graphic
representation of the Crux
Terminates.

TERMINATORS
The left shoulder pad of
Terminator armour carries
the large stone tactical
badge known as the Crux
Terminarus. The Chapter
symbol is therefore
displayed on the right pad.
A number differentiates
each of the squads.

TERMINATOR HONOURS
1st Company Veterans have been trained in the use of Terminator armour are entitled to wear the crux terminatus honour badge. Of course this great stone badge is fixed to the left shoulder armour of the actual Terminator suit. If the Marine is not fighting in a Terminator suit he will carry and display a small metal version of the crux. This may be worn as a badge or a hanger. Supplementing this badge will various painted or stencilled crux on the Marine's armour. Collectively these markings are known as Terminator honours.


These include markings for use on older designs of power armour. At the time the Codex was compiled by Roboute Guilliman many Space MArines would still have been equipped with armour that predated the Horus Heresy. Many of these suits lacked reinforcing rims on the shoulder pads or space to display a Chapter icon on the Marine's left pad.

Ultramarines were a Legion numbering thousands of warriors. It may be that these variants had a specific use at that time to differentiate the component sections of the older larger organisation. When the Space Marine Legions were split into Chapters of a thousand warriors there was no need for variant icons. However the variant icons retain use and value as honour marks within the Chapter

[Chris*ta]

One meta reason for the change I can think of is that when you look at a mini of a marine in a firing pose, his left shoulder is forward. As most people display their minis to be viewed from this angle it makes sense to have their identifying badge visible (say, to their foes or the 'eavy metal photographer).
It possibly also has to do with when mk.7 was introduced it was the same time as introducing the metal body / plastic arm style mini, and moulding the shoulderpads both 'clean' would have been easier as the GW plastics of the time weren't great with that sort of stuff.

As for Terminators, I'm going to go with a mix of tradition and visual balance. When the 2nd ed switch came in the Terminators were re-released with a slightly larger sized body - but there was tons of artwork around, including pics in the 2nd ed rulebooks, of old school terminators. So swapping one element only would be quite strange to say the least.
Also from a design standpoint the minis were locked in their pose quite rigidly, gun arms at 90 degrees, fists down. The crux on the left shoulder gives them visual interest on that side as everything else is smooth/flat. The right side doesn't need it as it has the gun for contrast.



I remember that insignia booklet - it came out a little after the time of the first marine army list that was reprinted in the Compendium I think, but before the Compilation and mk 7, which gave another set of identification rules (company colour chest eagles anyone?).

Magickbk's comment about mottos was talking about scrawl like 'Kil Kil Kil' and 'Death is Easy' written Aliens/Full Metal Jacket style on their armour, not scrollwork or iconography.

Interesting thought about being viewed left shoulder forward -- I hadn't thought of that.

The first Mk 7s were of the metal body, plastic arms variety (though there may've been some early all metal ones.

I think your point about them deciding to sculpt them with two clean shoulderpads is not really relevant (it doesn't answer why they decided to put the chapter symbol on the left) and also, remember that GW's 1st plastic kit, several years earlier, was RTB 01 (as the cool kids call it nowadays) which had 30 Mk 6 marines with spiky left shoulders. And their spikes looked okay if you painted them right.

I was aware that magickbk was referring to the Vietnam type graffiti -- but I have no memory of this occurring in WD from 119 onwards (perhaps occasionally). It's not really relevant to the argument either way.

You remember the codex markings they described in WD 136? I seem to remember that vets wore white right arms, as well as helmets. Oh, and company colours on chest eagles is still codex, it's just not used by those dang Ultramarines anymore ;)

[Chris*ta]

@ Mathhammer

Where are those quotes from? I'm interested now ...

Remember though that C:SM shows the markings varying noticeably amongst the marines of Ultramarines 2nd Co. (p. 18-19).

Oh, and the pre-Heresy armour (Mk 2-4) had space to display a symbol on the left shoulderpad. It was the suits produced during the Heresy (Mk 5 and 6) that don't have space there.

I'm still hoping that someone will have concrete answers to these.

Otherwise may have to go to Games Day to ask whoever drew the short straw and was sent to Australia.

Wait, it just occurred to me. Jervis has an email address in the Standard Bearer column in WD -- maybe I should harangue an answer out of him.

[mathhammer]

Quotes from Insignium Astartes

[Gotthammer]

I know about the RTB01 marines and thier studs - I have some sitting a few feet away - and compared to the metal guys of the time they look like ***. I was commenting on it as it may have been an influencing factor in why they made the shoulders both clean, which may have caused someone to ask 'so what do we paint there?' which could have then led to swapping sides.

I just went over and had a look at a bunch of my old marines, and those that don't have bolters either have shoulder mounted heavy weapons or are pointing with their right arm or have it raised, obscuring the shoulder pad in most cases. Not definitive, but interesting. I also grabbed my Compilation, and it was Ultras who denoted company by arm colour, Dark Angels by eagle colour, and Blood angels by variously coloured and numbered blood drops on their right shoulder.

Should Jes Goodwin be at Games Day Au I'll try to remember to ask him.

[Chris*ta]

@ Gotthammer
So, you're a Sydneysider too! (It's written over there <-- and everything ;) )

Still not sure about Games day. I want to go, and I want the limited edition mini, but my sleep patterns are so messed up right now and I don't want to buy a ticket and then sleep through it :(

[Gotthammer]

Indeed I am :D

Last year was great and you can guess by the fact that I'm typing this now that sleeping patterns aren't my best friends either. Last year I worked until about 2am, went to Games Day (missed the BL seminar though :( ), went to work for 10 hours, then went home and typed up a big long writeup for my blog - wheeee!

Still, it was great fun and possibly better for being horribly sleep deprived. The tryouts for Young Talent Time were next door as well, so while these kids were trying to sing and crap choruses of 'waaaaaagh!' kept reverberating through the walls, ha ha. And the cosplayers freaked a few of the parents out.

[Chris*ta]

I don't want this to turn in to a game of "You think you're crippled!" but I'm almost certain mine are worse.

As in, am going to see a specialist so I can get a diagnosis to take to Centrelink ;)

Oh, and if I'm lucky, maybe get better.

Bruce Campbell's on Charmed on Eleven right now. One of the upsides of sleep issues!

[Gotthammer]

Well if it's bad enough you'd consider dealing with Centrelink it's no doubt worse... not to mention watching Charmed is an upside ;p

But on a more positive note, Games Day is great fun even if you only go for a bit. Chatting with guys like Phil Kelly, Adam Troke and Graham McNiell was well worth the admission IMO.

[Chris*ta]

Oh, I have more than enough other stuff that means I'm kind of stuck with Centrelink. The hard bit is convincing them that I'm actually sick enough that I couldn't really hold down a job and they should stop bugging me about getting one ;)

[Gotthammer]

My Mum had a similar issue with them, and my own dealings have been a royal pain in the arse. Dole bludgers should be allowed to keep the money, as if you can figure out how to make getting a payment anything not like work you're a bloody genius :D

[Chris*ta]

I have heard a theory that it'd be cheaper to give everyone who doesn't have a job a reasonable amount of money, (without all the eligibility, different payments, etc.) thus saving money on administration, as well as the investigation and prosecution of cheats. So it'd still end up being cheaper for the government.

Still, where getting way off topic.

Does anyone have concrete answers for:
a) From the fluff, why terminators have the chapter symbol on their right shoulderpad, and
b) From real world GW history. why Mk 7 marines have their chapter symbol on the left shoulderpad

I think that basically sums up my original post, and please provide sources (if you've got them).

[Gotthammer]

For A I've done some rummaging through various sources and none mention any specifics I can find, or any references to why (in game) power armour guys have it on their left. Still haven't had a chance to look up Deathwatch yet.

[Chris*ta]

That's something I haven't considered before ... Deathwatch.

While I'm ignoring non-codex marines in regards to this question, Deathwatch marines are an interesting case. They have their home chapter symbol on their right, and the deathwatch symbol on the left. They don't really fit in to the definitions -- they've got two chapter symbols, really (and not in the same way that Black Templars, do either ;) )

I still think it's a pity that we haven't got the codex that the Inquisition and attached forces deserves. An enormous thing that allows you to take inquisitors, grey knights, sisters and deathwatch all together. And probably some IG or zealot-like human guys. Would have to be some enormous number of pages, though. Still, if we're lucky, we might get it this edition.

It's also a pity that Deathwatch/Alien Hunters never got a codex at all. They'd be quite good if they had a variety of squads, etc. rather than just being vanguard before they were cool.

[The AKH]

As far as I know, the Deathwatch marines' "right shoulder pad" with Chapter insignia is actually their left shoulder pad, moved to the right side to make room for the Deathwatch insignia.

[Cpt Codpiece]

image from the RT compendium 1989
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/crux.jpg

while the story has issues with fluff, the bunker was the vengful spirit, no olanius pious, no unmasking of horus' mind etc. it was 1989 after all :)

my comment earlier about the quad make up of vets, there are only 2 types terms and power, only separated by the equips they take. any vet, or captain can choose/be ordered to take pow or term (depending on chapter organisation).

[Chris*ta]

while the story has issues with fluff, the bunker was the vengful spirit, no olanius pious, no unmasking of horus' mind etc. it was 1989 after all :)

my comment earlier about the quad make up of vets, there are only 2 types terms and power, only separated by the equips they take. any vet, or captain can choose/be ordered to take pow or term (depending on chapter organisation).

I think I remember that exact image from one of the Space Hulk 1st ed books too, I'll have to look it up when I can dig them out.

And I'll stick to my earlier comments about the breakdown of the 1st Co. The current SM Codex is pretty clear that Vanguard and Sternguard are quite separate groups within the Co, and they have a good-natured rivalry about which sides combat philosophy is more effective. I'm aware that this is a recent change to the fluff, though.

The distinction of Terminator and Terminator Assault squads is somewhat older, but not sure exactly when it was introduced.

That Sternguard and regular Termies, and Vanguard and Termie Assault squads are the same guys, just wearing different outfits isn't made explicit in the codex, but I think is a fairly safe bet.

I certainly respect if you want to believe different, based on the older fluff -- heck, I grew up on it -- but I'm happy to follow the most recent fluff on this one. I'm just waiting for them to introduce Devastator Terminators ;)

[Cpt Codpiece]

I'm just waiting for them to introduce Devastator Terminators

Om nom nom yes please, cyclones and assault cannons/flamers or twin linked assault cannons can you say cheese machines

yeah i have not read a recent SM codex, i think the last one was 4th eds (the one with the old trait system, only glanced at the time TBH, im a choas fan mainly) so the setn and vang vets are pretty new to me and the distinction between them seems logical.

the compilation also had drawings of the older Mks and a run down of their operation, and it appears the switch on power armour was indeed to protect the marines while firing (as explained in deliverance lost, the traitors had better ammo, and the shoulder plates stopped it), then when the heresy ended supplies were more readily available and the improvments could be made on the superior MKIV to change it over into widespread MK VI and later VII, given that terminator suits were also rolled out at the time of the heresy this may be why (in fluff) they are switched also, since traitors would of used the earlier MKs (tartarous and cataphractii) the crux would have been isuued post heresy.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/2.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/3.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/4.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/5.jpg

[Cpt Codpiece]

sry for dbl post, pictures :)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/6.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b291/darthplagis/RT%20stuff/7.jpg

as can be seen the earlier MKs actually had space for legion insignia on the left shoulder, as MK VII does still and that only the heresy era do not (V and VI).

[Chris*ta]

@ Cpt Codpiece:
Those look like sketches that lead to the more finished drawings in the article in WD 136. Though it could be poor recall of the pictures on my part, as from your description it sounds like the same article.

I'm increasingly getting the feeling that neither of my original questions have been answered adequately. Looks like I might have to go to Games Day and find someone important to annoy with this ...

[Cpt Codpiece]

the sketches and the writeups on the MKs were taken from my copy of the WD compilation, so that would have been '88-89 they were in the WD.

if the terminator crux thing model wise is an issue (i know i get twitchy when people put stud pads on the right shoulder) the FW termies can easily be swapped out left to right without issue.... though the srg crux is larger, i nearly missed that on my set. and you can even remove the crux since its just resin :)


yeah i think the horses mouth will be the only place to get a good answer on this.
I'd like an answer from the guys in the know too, if anyone can grab an ear at any coming event.

[Chris*ta]

I would've thought someone would've been bothered to get answers to this before.

Maybe I'll have a hunt around some of the other WH40k forums to see if I can find anything.

Aaagh, visiting other forums ... but the people in the rest of the internet smell :(

[Gotthammer]

This question was answered at Games Day today by Jes himself:

"I don't remember."

Lol :D

One of the attendees ventured that it was so (in universe), that when advancing the enemy would see the chapter symbol on a PA guy and know who's killing them, while terminators shoot one handed, so keep it on their right.
Jes thought that was a superb explaination, so he was going to accept that. He then went on a ramble about contradictory history and so on for a bit.

[Psychosplodge]

wasn't it simply because the original marines and terminators were produced before the iconography was standardised?

[JamesP]

This question was answered at Games Day today by Jes himself:

"I don't remember."

Lol :D

One of the attendees ventured that it was so (in universe), that when advancing the enemy would see the chapter symbol on a PA guy and know who's killing them, while terminators shoot one handed, so keep it on their right.
Jes thought that was a superb explaination, so he was going to accept that. He then went on a ramble about contradictory history and so on for a bit.

'Contradictory history' probably translates as 'we had a great idea for the original [now Mk6] Marine designs and then a few years later had a different idea for the later [now Mk7] designs that let you paint on both shoulders by dropping the studs that Bob Naismith had put on the left one'. Which is fair enough, it's how most designs evolve over time.