When people won't help themselves.

[Mr Mystery]

How do? Bit of a rant I'm afraid. Tin Helmets on? Good. Right, off we go.

So this has been getting on my pip quite a bit recently, as as the title says, it's when people just refuse to help themselves. Might help to give a bit of background I suppose.

Up to about two and half years ago, when I was 29, I wasn't really doing much. I messed around in the latter years of school and just sort of bummed around ever after. I've had a string of jobs, the odd short period of unemployement, even a proto-career in IT, but nothing really engaging. Before I got a boot up my backside, I was a (rubbish) Taxi driver working one day a week in Games Workshop. What was the boot up my backside? I got made homeless. Place I was staying needed the room back, so I had to move on. And oddly, that was the best thing that ever happened to me.

There I was, sofa surfing the days away, working one day a week in my local GW. Then a lucky break came my way. Regional was in, and fretting that one of his stores would be closed over the weekend as all the staff, well....they no longer worked there (not sure why, so not even going to speculate). So thinking I could do with the cash, and make myself useful, I piped up that if my boss could spare me on that Saturday, I'd be happy to go open up. Regional and I had the same thought process that even a dismal failure of a days takings were preferable to having the store shut. Off he went, made a few phonecalls, and boom, I was seconded to that store for a week. Lord knows how, but I made a real go of it. New trainign manuals had come in, so a hastily photocopied edition was thrust into my hand, and I was pointed in the direction of the train station. Four weeks later, I'd made it on to the management course for GW. Yeah. I was a massive success in that store! Being homeless at the time, I had nothing to hold me where I was, and frankly, only a fool in my position would object to 3 months in hotels on the company pound!

Still managed to stuff it up, but that lead me into the wonderful world of insurance, and now two years later I'm looking forward to starting my job for the regulator, the Financial Ombudsmen Service.

As I said, I did have a lucky break or two, but those were seized with both hands, and through hard work and solid graft I've made the most of them. My life is turned around, I have my own flatt, and I'm generally sorted and thriving.

The downside? I now find it really, really hard to deal with those who squander opportunity, or always play it needlessly safe. There's people at work who I think are quite capable of joining me in my new role, but they are scared to try. One of them wanted a frankly ridiculous promise that not only would she get the job, but also pass probation. Yeah, like I can promise that? I see where she's coming from, as her bloke is out of work, so job security is a big thing. But surely the chance at a £10k payrise is well worth it, especially in that situation.

Then there's another girl I know. Sadly, she's having marriage problems. She knows it's not working, and that it's not going to. So she comes to us for advice, and we tell her the same thing. If she's not happy, and he's not happy (neither of them are. I know them both, and you'll rarely find a more miserable couple). But she won't do anything. She wants someone to go to, as in a new relationship straight off the bat. If you ask me, that's just a bad, bad idea. Then she says it can work out, even though she has a shortlist (I kid you not) of guys she'd get with if/when they split up.

Another colleague really doesn't like me, because I've advanced ahead of them. Now I'm aware I'm sounding like an intolerable arsehole in this thread, but excuse me for having the attitude and appitude to be really rather good at what I do. I don't just sit at my desk demanding help all day long. I don't start acting up and chattering non-stop as soon as the bosses are out the office. I'm not needlessly defensive to all criticism, whether justified or not. It's as if this person is blind to that fact that it's their attitude holding them back.

Whilst I've not had a particularly hard life, it's been far from a bed of roses on easy street. And the people who annoy me the most know this. They come to me for advice, and I offer it to them. Perhaps I can be a little too blunt for some tastes, but this is something generally well know, and the reason many people do seek my opinion.

What is wrong with these people, and others like them? The answer is there. The solution has already presented itself (and it's nothing to do with me. I'm not that arrogant!) they just refuse to take it. The married one? Yeah, I try to avoid her and her husband now. Not only is it an unpleasent environment to be in, but it's just bloody tedious listen to the same old whinge time after time.

Sorry. I've got my arse in my hands in this respect. But many people who fall into this category have an overblown sense of entitlement. Nothing comes free in this life, and you have to take risks. By all means calculate those risks, study the angles, and seek second opinions. But no matter how difficult it might be, you can't change what the right thing is, so seize those chances, and improve your life. It's like someone complaining about their weight, whilst tucking into the third McDonalds of the week. The source of problems can be surprisingly clear, and it is everyones power to do something about it. Sure, it could be several years work, or even decades depending on the problem, but it can be done. You just need to do it.

[Denzark]

Fair one. Now you should do some Jim Carey-esque thing where you tell the absolute cold unyielding truth to people. They listen, you solve their problems. They get outraged and ignore you, they continue suffering. For a people watcher its awesome.

I'll get the popcorn.

[DarkLink]

I'm in the same position you were in before getting the big GW job. I've graduated from college with a bs in civil engineering. I have some work experience. I have tons of cool stuff on my resume, like search and rescue volunteer and being an eagle scout.

And no one is hiring in my field (the only ce jobs here are in water resources, and that wasn't my focus so I can't compete there).

I had an interview not long ago where 160 applicants were applying for a single position. I was one of the 12 that got an interview. It went well, but I'm up against plenty of people with masters and phds and more relevant work experience that I do.

I've been applying for Marine OCS, but it's a very, very long and slow process, and for the most part I've had plenty of complications along the way. I'm finally on a selection board and might get selected in the next couple weeks, but that's far from a guarantee.

And, of course, I'm staying with my family, who happen to live in a small mountain town where there aren't enough businesses to find a short term job.

So, I've just to keep going until I get something. Or just decide to enlist.



But then, I look at a friend of mine whose parents divorced, basically left her to fend for herself the second she turned 18, who hasn't gotten any breaks in life at all, but just keeps working one crappy job after another to save up and get through college one class at a time. I have a lot of respect for her because of that, and I can't complain that life's been tough to me when it's been tougher for others.

[Necron2.0]

Once upon a time, I was an anarchist. Like most anarchists and communists, I came from a semi-affluent family (lets face it, most anarchists and communists think the way they do because they've never actually been in the trenches - never had to actually work for a living). I got a good education, despite my resentment of it (I considered myself "one of the people" and did not want to be tainted by elitist scum). I received excellent grades, because despite my reservations, to do less than my personal best is anathema to me.

When I left high school I initially refused to go on to college, choosing instead to work with the people (i.e. to become a social worker). In five years, I learned exactly what you did - "the people" are lazy pariahs. Given half the chance, your average schmuck will leach off someone rather than struggle to better themselves. People do not want to lead, they want to be lead. They will not fight. They will not lift a finger in their own defense if it requires even a single drop of sweat. I've often said, "Unless you will bleed for what you believe in, you believe in nothing." People will not bleed. This world is filled with people blowing through life like desiccated leaves caught in an autumnal wind.

What people need most in this world is someone to forcibly take them by the nostrils, yank them hard in the right direction, and then repeatedly bury a boot up their backsides to get them moving in the right direction. In other words, people need a God Emperor.

[Psychosplodge]

I've had no harder life than many others, but I'll b!tch and moan, cause it's always the arseholes who do nothing, break every promise they make, walk over everybody that make it.
You try and act like a decent human being and you just get sh!t on, and that pisses me off...

This (http://geeks.thedailywh.at/2012/07/07/geek-news-make-a-wish-moment-of-the-day/#disqus_thread) is obviously someone having a hard life...

[Mr Mystery]

That is so cool! Mr Pearlman, give yourself twelfty dude points!!

And another lame excuse I'm sick of hearing? 'I'm not as strong as you'

So, what. Rather than face things and give it your best shot, you're just going to sit there and take it? How is that at all useful?? Where do they think my strength came from? Simply put, I stopped running and started fighting. Once you start, it's impossible to stop you, no matter how many setbacks and bloody noses await you.

[Wolfshade]

Advice is seldom welcome, and those who need it the most, like it the least.
-Lord Stanhope (
I also think that for some people the familiar rut is comfortable and known and is the safer option than venturing out and trying something new. I've been in my job for 5 years now, and while I complain about it I have brought such efficiencies to it that it does not consume my entire day and I am able to focus on other more interesting areas of research, and the occassional comment on an internet forum. The commute is easily done and I can do it without resorting to car nor public transport, the idea of working somewhere else where these luxuries do not exist are enough to keep me in my holding pattern.

Apathy and lethargy are the state of the age, we are too lazy to change things and don't care enough to want to.

[Mr Mystery]

Ah, but you sound happy with your current lot. That's different to someone dissatisfied who won't try something new, no?

[Wolfshade]

I'm not sure I would say that I am "happy" with my current lot, just apathetic, what I do is highly specialised in terms of outside of a couple of academic instituions, there is one company in the UK that needs what I do, so the jump change to something else is something that is going to be quite a step change, and while I am finding it easy to do, the upheaval is not something I think I would find worth while. Sometimes being forced to change through circumstance is the greatest motivator, the whole jumping out the nest and see who flies philosphy. Fear of the ground is enough to keep a number of people in the nest, as is not being motivated enough to change.
There is a difference between having nothing to lose and trying something new, and having something to lose by trying something new.

[Psychosplodge]

http://mthruf.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/job-fails-nothing-like-a-little-negativity2.jpg

[MaltonNecromancer]

Knowing you have a problem, being aware of the solution, and acting upon it are three very different things.

People move at their own speed, and you my friend, are powerless. Because that's the real thing here - you seem annoyed that you have no power to change the things in the world that annoy you.

This is because you don't. None of us do. Every battered spouse wishes their partner would change - but they don't. And if they do, it's never because of the spouse; it's because of them. Every child with an alcoholic parent wishes they could change them... but mum and dad keep on drinking.

You cannot, and will never, succeed in changing another human being, regardless of how much that change would be of benefit to them. You can be there for them. You can provide support t them, and listen to them. You can loan them money, and make the change easier - be a facilitator. But you can no more change them than you can change the rotational speed of the Earth.


The source of problems can be surprisingly clear, and it is everyones power to do something about it.

Not always. And sometimes, no - it is not in everyone's power to do something about it. Most of us play the cards we're dealt as best we can, and hopefully our parents didn't do a terrible job of raising us, but you know what? Some people can't help themselves, and neither can anyone else, including you. Some people are just messed up, trapped in a self-inflicted hell, and unable to do anything about it. The myth that we all have the power to change our lives just through hard work is an alluring myth, but a big pile of lies nonetheless. Studies show that menial jobs don't lead to a career ladder - just more menial jobs. The only way out is education (be that formal, or being taken under the wing of a professional, etc...) and some people lack the inclination, aptitude, or personality for it. There are some people out there whose lives are going to be nothing but misery until the day they die. Walk into some of those nightmare care homes for the eldery and see what I mean.

It's not fair, and it's not right, but that's the way it is. You want to change it? Become a politician. Yes, the job is hard but you don't know you'll make no positive changes unless you try and fail first. If you're not prepared to do that, well, I suppose complaining to disembodied voices on the internet is one way to make the world a better place.


I now find it really, really hard to deal with those who squander opportunity, or always play it needlessly safe.

Then either a.) don't deal with them, or b.) get over it. There's no magic cure to stop this feeling.

Seriously - you're moaning about how people let you down over things that are their god-given free right to do? People have character flaws! Accept it and move on! If they don't have the ability/desire/whatever to do the thing that would help them, well, c'est la vie. We all of us miss opportunities and we all of us take some. They own their own lives. Just accept that other people aren't you - it'll go a long way to cheering you up, and if you can't deal with it, I would suggest counselling. Getting that annoyed over the things you can't change bespeaks deeper issues.


What is wrong with these people, and others like them?

Nothing. They're just human, and flawed, and that's all there is to it. Take a deep breath, accept it, move on. Despite the act I'm repeating myself here, I'll say it again:

You have no power here. You are powerless. That is your real issue, not these people. You want the world to be better than it is, and you can't make it be. Sorry: that's just life.

Might I suggest reading this article:

http://jezebel.com/5921436/your-love-does-not-necessarily-conquer-all

And considering that it describes an outlook very similar to the one you have displayed in your rant here.

Please understand, I'm not trying to get at you - you're coming from a very negative place, and it seems to be entirely due to your current perception of the issues. If this is all really getting you down, i honestly suggest counselling - it really helps.

[Denzark]

MN that's such a teacher's response...

[Mr Mystery]

I do and I don't agree. Not all circumstances are hopeless, and there is always a way out. I may have missed saying it before when I was in full flow, I fully appreciate that some situations are a lot harder to change than others (say, a criminal record from an ill advised youthful exploit perhaps, or a horrendously abusive relationship). But there are always ways out.

The element that really gets on my pip is when they refuse to accept any responsibility. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a 'blame the victim' stance, and it certainly isn't fair in certain circumstances, but when you're in a dead end job for instance, stop bloody whinging about it and start looking elsewhere. Progression is there. Sure it may take you a long time, but you can do it, even in this tough economical time. Indeed it's far easier for the employed to find new work than it is for the unemployed (even the recently redundant) to find work. Not particularly fair, but true in my experience all the same.

Specifically I am meaning relatively petty things (barring the possible divorce, that's pretty heavy) and complaints that come up time after time after time. It's one thing to not take my advice, lord knows I'm far from a life expert, but to then come back a couple of weeks later, whinging about the same situation, frankly that's just rud, andd more than a little urine extracting.

[gwensdad]

There's a certain danger to this attitude.

Last year, I was unemployed from January to August. Due to the stupidity of how I lost my job (short form-got injured so they fired me) and I couldn't get unemployment. I looked every ****ing day for a job, everyone suffered here but I couldn't find anything.

But the only thing I heard-"you're not trying hard enough". Well, that and "but you're blessed! Stop complaining about not being able to feed your family when you have one!". I was yelled at because people would tell me to apply somewhere, I'd never hear back, so I was accused of not applying (because of course, "EVERYPLACE replies"-which is BULL****)

Now on the flipside to that-I've been working for a company that gives samples out in WalMart (yes, that person you get free food from isn't a WM employee) and people will walk up to me DEMANDING free stuff before I'm even set up. The whole concept of "wait 30 minutes" or "it's not cooked yet" is something offensive to them. I recently baked from (almost) scratch cherry turnovers and people didn't WANT to make it, they wanted pre-fab no work items. Yes, this is sounding totally off topic BUT it is a sign of society at large-people don't want to work towards the good things they expect them handed to them.

I'm still working on it all. I was thinking about getting into insurance/financial stuff but I'm already thinking the same "friends" who wouldn't help me find a job won't help me find leads.
well, this has been an accidental rant/cathartic moment.

[MaltonNecromancer]

MN that's such a teacher's response...

Thank you. :)


I do and I don't agree. Not all circumstances are hopeless, and there is always a way out. I may have missed saying it before when I was in full flow, I fully appreciate that some situations are a lot harder to change than others (say, a criminal record from an ill advised youthful exploit perhaps, or a horrendously abusive relationship). But there are always ways out.

I would so love this to be true. But I can assure you that for some people, it's really not.

Here's the thing. I've been a teacher for nine years. I've seen so many lovely, wonderful human beings, taught approximately 1800 of them, and of those, only met approximately five completely irredeemable jerks. The vast majority of pupils, when seen from the perspective of a teacher, are truly lovely human beings. Even the ones that are rude and obnoxious. That's the thing about teaching - we don't get the luxury of being able to just go "Oh, jerk" and ignore people (not if we want to be good teachers, anyhow). By the nature of our job, we have to find the good in people - if we can't get a pupil on side, we can't teach them anything. We just can't.

Now, that said, I've seen some kids who have been really, really messed up by their parents. And I'm not talking "Didn't get me the game I wanted for Xmas!". I'm talking real, serious, horror. The kind of stuff that makes you lose faith in humanity horror. And my school is a perfectly lovely, average, middle-class, WASP school (that's White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, not the hair-metal band). This kind of nightmare goes on everywhere.

I've taught kids who I know are going to go off and fail at every turn, because their parents weren't good enough, because they weren't good enough, and because there's nowhere for them in society at all. The only thing I can do to make things better for them is to try and get them a single qualification at best, or simply to inculcate a love for my subject in them at worst.

It is heartbreaking to watch.

So I know all about feeling powerless. I know all about how frustrating it is. You just have to accept that the only power you have is to change yourself, and do your best to be there for others. And sometimes that means eating a big old brown sandwich (and the filling of this sandwich is not chocolate). Sometimes it means finishing that sandwich and saying "Please sir, may I have another?" like a man, and chowing down on the next one of those bad boys.

And this continues until you've had your fill or you die.

[Denzark]

Gwensdad - you are not nthe person being talked about - you are pulling yourself up by the bootstraps rather than malingering in mediocrity making no efffort.

[DarkLink]

"Keep your head down and inch towards daylight."
Anyone who recognizes that quote deserves a high five.


By the way, Necron2.0, it sounds like my freshman college roommate needed to learn the same lesson you mentioned. He started out on the same path as me, and aside from a lack of athletic prowess he's actually pretty similar to me in a lot of ways, but for a complex set of reasons he turned into a massive hippie, failed out of college, and hasn't done anything meaningful since.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I always knew I liked Gwensdad. I like him even more now.

[Wolfshade]

There is a problem, that sometimes government makes it too easy for people not to help themselves.
A friend of mine is a trained nurse, she was in a long term relationship with her partner and they deiceded to have children together. Just after their daughter was born he walked out on her. Once the maternity leave had finished she faced a choice, to go back to work and put her child in child care during her shifts or to become unemployed and live on benefits. She calculated what she would get in each scenario and came to the uncomfortable conclusion that going back to work as a nurse and working her full shift pattern and having to put her daughter with a minder/nursery/other left her substantially worse off than staying at home, not working and claiming benefit.
When we live in an age where you can be better off not working, there is something wrong with the system, or at least those people who use it.
I am not in favour of just abolishing welfare, as there are people who do need it, unfortunately there are also generations of people who now live on it having never worked.

[Psychosplodge]

I'm really pissed off at the system that's driven house prices and rent up, because the benefits system will pay basicly whatever the landlords ask, making it unaffordable for the likes of me on one income to rent/buy at an affordable price, but then the likes of the silly tarts that have never worked, dropped out at 16 pregnant, and now have 3 kids have a house, 20 **** a day, are in the pub everynight (I was at school with them a decade or so ago, this isn't an exaggeration)

[Wolfshade]

Exactly, and because they have rules about children sharing bedrooms after a certain age they end up moving into larger and larger houses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185

£32/week on mobile 'phones, my mobile bill is £15/month
£240/week on shopping Includes food and household goods, 24 cans of lager, 200 cigarettes and a large pouch of tobacco.

:eek:

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah I remember that report, makes you sick doesn't it...

[Mr Mystery]

There is a problem, that sometimes government makes it too easy for people not to help themselves.
A friend of mine is a trained nurse, she was in a long term relationship with her partner and they deiceded to have children together. Just after their daughter was born he walked out on her. Once the maternity leave had finished she faced a choice, to go back to work and put her child in child care during her shifts or to become unemployed and live on benefits. She calculated what she would get in each scenario and came to the uncomfortable conclusion that going back to work as a nurse and working her full shift pattern and having to put her daughter with a minder/nursery/other left her substantially worse off than staying at home, not working and claiming benefit.
When we live in an age where you can be better off not working, there is something wrong with the system, or at least those people who use it.
I am not in favour of just abolishing welfare, as there are people who do need it, unfortunately there are also generations of people who now live on it having never worked.

You raise a fair point, but there are other factors keeping many in that situation. For instance, I was kind of seeing a girl earlier this year. She's a single mother of two kids, and lives in a house owned by her Mum. Now she freely admits to having screwed up multiple times, but ever since becoming a Mum she had turned her life around. She's been studying to qualify as an Accountant, and now had her diploma. But to really get anywhere, she needs the extension which turns it into a degree. And what did the government do? Cut funding to adult education for single parents. Now she cannot take that extension, and faces remaining as is. That's no good for anyone. Granted, many would do what I would consider pointless courses, but I still feel taking away this opportunity is short sighted at best, as the kids have a tendency to follow suit.

[MaltonNecromancer]

then the likes of the silly tarts that have never worked, dropped out at 16 pregnant, and now have 3 kids have a house, 20 **** a day, are in the pub everynight (I was at school with them a decade or so ago, this isn't an exaggeration)

1.) Takes two to tango - where's their child support? Dad should be paying a significant portion of that.
2.) Not sure I agree with you that we should kick those kids out onto the street - having a cruel father and a foolish mother isn't their fault. Maybe you're right and we should give them nothing; seems like that'll create more problems than it solves.
3.) I wonder if those "silly tarts" ever knew they had other options? Because I'm betting that they were never really loved by anyone. Ever. There's several girls I know who had kids young because they were told all their lives to their faces that they were worthless, unlovable scum. By their mothers. A person grows up like that, is it any wonder that a child, who will love you unconditionally, seems like a good option? You're talking about people who never had any chance at all, who were abandoned by their parents, failed by the system, and are left to rot on the welfare state because that's what safety nets are for. And now, we demonise them when they take the only option open to them, and it's a stupid option anyway.

You look and you see individuals leeching off of you personally.

I look and I see people who have been failed by every single person in their miserable lives.

Do you know what the single best cure for young motherhood is? Education and self-esteem, because a woman who knows she can succeed at life doesn't drop out of it. All the statistical evidence points to it.

I suggest that you do some research, and compare how much money dole scum cost us, compared to how much money rich people with tax avoidance and offshore accounts cost us. We demonise the poor because, well, look at them. They're ugly, and stupid, and their children are hooded nightmares who are noisy and unpleasant. We never demonise the rich, because, well, they own the means by which we gain information. And it's not like not contributing money to a system is the same as taking it out, is it?

[Psychosplodge]

1.) Takes two to tango - where's their child support? Dad should be paying a significant portion of that.
2.) Not sure I agree with you that we should kick those kids out onto the street - having a cruel father and a foolish mother isn't their fault. Maybe you're right and we should give them nothing; seems like that'll create more problems than it solves.
3.) I wonder if those "silly tarts" ever knew they had other options? Because I'm betting that they were never really loved by anyone. Ever. There's several girls I know who had kids young because they were told all their lives to their faces that they were worthless, unlovable scum. By their mothers. A person grows up like that, is it any wonder that a child, who will love you unconditionally, seems like a good option? You're talking about people who never had any chance at all, who were abandoned by their parents, failed by the system, and are left to rot on the welfare state because that's what safety nets are for. And now, we demonise them when they take the only option open to them, and it's a stupid option anyway.

You look and you see individuals leeching off of you personally.

I look and I see people who have been failed by every single person in their miserable lives.

Do you know what the single best cure for young motherhood is? Education and self-esteem, because a woman who knows she can succeed at life doesn't drop out of it. All the statistical evidence points to it.

I suggest that you do some research, and compare how much money dole scum cost us, compared to how much money rich people with tax avoidance and offshore accounts cost us. We demonise the poor because, well, look at them. They're ugly, and stupid, and their children are hooded nightmares who are noisy and unpleasant. We never demonise the rich, because, well, they own the means by which we gain information. And it's not like not contributing money to a system is the same as taking it out, is it?

What I object to is the idea that they are provided with a higher standard of living than that of the average working person. And yes it takes two to tango, and yes the useless lump of a father should be pursued for child support (good luck with that) And yes silly tart is justified because it's not difficult to source free contraceptives in this country even back then, I know I've been there and done that at a silly age and yet me and the ex never had half a dozen unplanned kids.

It's as much the housing benefits systems fault for inflating house prices by paying out whatever silly amounts private landlords ask for.

I certainly never said give them nothing, and I never called anyone dole scum. There are a lot of hard working people suffering on the dole, while a lot of muppets who know little more than how to tick a box are working at the moment.

I think you'd find that they only avoid the tax because of the rate, if it was just set the same as the rest of us we'd make more because it wouldn't be worth the effort of avoiding it. And all children are irritating regardless of background, and I still live in my hoodies :D

[DarkLink]

Regardless of why scumbags have turned into scumbags, throwing money at them isn't likely to give them a sudden epiphany and turn their lives around. And for all the crap people like to give the rich, at least they aren't an active drain on society. The idea that 'they could do more' doesn't change the fact that at least they're doing something.

In fact, the only thing that I can think of is to help them is to actively force them to restructure their lives. Draft them all into the military, or something to that effect. But that has its own, massive, problems.

I actually just finished reading The Heart And The Fist, a book about a Navy SEAL who spent his college years volunteering overseas everywhere from China to Rowanda (shortly after the genocide there) and all sorts of other places, including working with Mother Teresa's nuns before she died. In all of his years serving others, he saw the same thing happen over and over again. War and genocide and other terrible things would happen, and the UN would let the bad guys murder and rape and pillage to their hearts content, and the most they ever did was send over a couple doctors and a bit of food, maybe a few teachers. But no amount of charity ever did anything to protect these people from being murdered and having their lives destroyed. So he joined the Navy and became a SEAL, so that he could actually protect these people instead of just giving them a pat on the back after the fact.

Welfare and such are all well and good (except for how absurdly clumsy and inefficient the bureaucracy always is, often turning a problem into an even worse problem), but it's a fundamentally flawed approach to helping people. Give a man a fish, or teach him to fish. Welfare will never be the, or even a, solution to the problems we're talking about.

Not that there is an easy alternative, but it's too easy to get caught up in the idea of welfare when trying to help people and as a result completely missing a way to actually improve their lives.

[Mr Mystery]

Regardless of the parent's decision, children are innocent. Society does little enough to tackle social inequality. Your chances in life should never be determined by your parents wealth or health.

And yes, this does mean some abuse the system, but regardless of what Das Daily Mail tells you, they are a tiny minority. Those scrotes who get in your pip and need a sound kicking? A minority. Nowhere near representative of anything but themselves. But you cannot use a minority to justify forcing further disadvantage upon all in that position. Contrary to popular belief, most people living on benefits do not want to.

Got a problem with them getting more than you? Blame the Private sector for keeping wages low. And you can thank the right wing and their rags for tearing down the Unions that would make a stand for workers to have a living wage. Take the Oil companies. OH NOES! WE ONLY MADE 6,000,000,000 *profit* THIS YEAR! QUICK! LAY OFF STAFF! RAID THE PENSION FUND! RAISE PRICES!! Sickening huh? Is it the fault of someone on benefits that I barely make ends meet, despite having a cheap flat for my area and having a full time job? Nope! That would be the private sector. They can't possibly pay me and my colleagues a living wage, the arseholes that lead the company to a loss last year must have their multimillion pound bonuses, less the go mess up another company!!!

[lattd]

I seriously believe there is a growing culture of entitlement, having worked with kids and gone to school with people who can only be described as chav's, I just feel some people believe they should be given everything and when they get told to get off their backside its apparently against their rights. Am I the only one who feels this.

[DarkLink]

Got a problem with them getting more than you? Blame the Private sector for keeping wages low. And you can thank the right wing and their rags for tearing down the Unions that would make a stand for workers to have a living wage.

For all your rhetoric, take a look at where the economy does well and where it does poorly in America. Places like California, with strong unions, tons of welfare, and massive government spending, are practically going bankrupt and have extremely high unemployment, and all that burden falls on the poor. Then you look at places where the government and businesses work together, with minimal red tape, taxes, and safety nets, and the economy is much, much stronger. Lower unemployment, higher wages, etc.

Take a look at just about every country that either claims to have free markets or socialist or communist government and/or economies. Inevitably, state controlled economies fail, and free market economies consistently grow.

Part of the problem with the whole idea of welfare is this: we have our economy that employs people to create a circulation of money and goods. Some people get left behind due to unemployment. But the more goods, services, and money circulating in that system, the more people you can employ, and the lower unemployment gets.

Welfare comes and takes money out of that system via regulation and taxes, wastes a significant portion of it within the bureaucracy, then tries to give it back via welfare. Problem is, you're looking at a net loss. By taking those resources out of the economy and hindering the economy, you undermine more of the economy than you can prop up. It's inefficient and counter productive, even if it seems like the nice thing to do. A certain level can be sustained, but if your safety net gets too big, it starts to drag and do more harm than good.

http://reason.com/archives/2012/05/08/why-were-losing

http://reason.com/poll#article_160431

[Psychosplodge]

I don't think it's really possible to compare the US situation to the UK one as you're still arguing over free health care, whereas here you'd find plenty of people who complain about how the NHS does what it does, but more or less everyone agrees it should exist to do it.

The other thing is, I would assume that California will suffer from higher unemployment as by offering better workers rights in law then they aren't playing on a level playing field against states that don't offer those same rights.

I heard the other day that in the US you aren't even entitled to a minimum amount of annual leave :eek: is this true?

[Wolfshade]

The conditions are different and the fedral system makes things even more difficult to try and understand as state to state can have differences. One woman I spoke with didn't have sick leave like we do, but had a number of sick days that could be taken, regardless of illness, but you had to build them up.
There are always those in society that require support and the difficulty is trying to divide the deserving to the non-deserving.

A certain level can be sustained, but if your safety net gets too big, it starts to drag and do more harm than good.
Exactly, you have to have more paying in than taking out, this is the exact same problem that some pension schemes have been having, they always assumed that those paying in would always out number those receiving payments. Which is not the case.
I think part of the issue is mindset, the government will provide with X amount on my own, if I have a child that rises to Y, which would also put me in a higher position for finding houses. If I add a dog I'll get Z amount extra and so it continues to the point where it is more profitable to have more children then it is to try and support them on your own/with a partner.
As an aside, there is a strange problem occuring in Britian's smaller council estates that because some people are unaware of who their father is that there is an increased rate of inbreeding and that is showing with the usual physical/mental development issues. Normal for Norfolk has just got urbanised.

[Joseph90]

This topic has been discussed for ages, but still actual. People don't help themselves because being a pathetic loser is easy. Being happy is much harder. People tend to destroy themselves, that runs in our blood. Sometimes we just need a Samaritan to help us stand up and go.

_______________
printable sudoku (http://thesudokugame.net/)

[Psychosplodge]

Cool a new sock?

Or picking the heavy threads to start? O_o

Welcome Noob or new sock, welcome...

[Wolfshade]

People don't help themselves because being a pathetic loser is easy.

Welcome aboard. I would have to say not everyone who doesn't help themselves are pathetic losers. Some people can't help themselves, like many people with mental health issues, I'm not just talking about those who require living assistance, clincial depressives for example.