Paladins in 6th

[Deadlift]

Now that the wound allocation shenanigans have been taken out of the game, I actually feel comfortable running 5 to 10 paladins in my GK army, or maybe as Allies.

I like to keep things simple, so in your esteemed opinion what would be a nice load out now for a 5 man paladin squad ?

I was thinking

X 2 Psycannons
X 1 Hammer
X 3 Halberds
X 1 Stave
Psy bolt ammo.

Not sure about a Apothacary now to be honest. What do you think ? If it were boosted to 10 men then maybe possible to add him in.

Either way Draigo would accompany these guys and as all paladins seem to count as characters he will be there to "look out sir" lascannons and the like.

Your thoughts ?

[DarkLink]

The Stave's a must, to tank powerfists and accept challenges. A banner is also well worth it, though I would consider taking a 6th paladin to carry it.

After that, 2 Halberds and 2 Hammers. Hammers give you AP 2 and let you hurt all sorts of things, and Halberds are flat out better than swords or falchions.

Psycannons are no-brainers, and master crafting them is worth it as well.

Don't bother with psybolts. 3 str 5 storm bolters aren't worth 20pts.

Previously, the Apothecary was never worth it, ever, despite what many people seemed to think. Now that you get FNP vs AP1/2, maybe. But lascannons and melta will still drop you, and you can mitigate plasma wounds with Look Out Sir, so it's still not worth it, certainly not on a 5-man squad.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Paladins aren't characters, independent or otherwise, they just have a minimum squad size of one.

[Dingus]

Paladins aren't characters, independent or otherwise, they just have a minimum squad size of one.

Paladins are now characters just like a Sergeant is now a character. Please refer to page 410 of the rule book. This also allows the entire squad to look out sir on each other on a 4+ for even more would allocation shenanigans.

[gendoikari87]

Paladins are now characters just like a Sergeant is now a character. Please refer to page 410 of the rule book. This also allows the entire squad to look out sir on each other on a 4+ for even more would allocation shenanigans.

Lolwut?

[evilamericorp]

Paladins aren't characters, independent or otherwise, they just have a minimum squad size of one.

Paladins are now characters, as are Nobs and Wolf Guard.

I play a walking Logan/Wolf Guard list that got huge buffs this edition. They can all look out sir to spread wounds around the unit, they can all issue/accept challenges, they get precision strikes in shooting and CC (which is awesome with my 2 Cyclones in each squad).



Now that the wound allocation shenanigans have been taken out of the game,

Wound allocation shenanigans haven't been taken out, they have been made worse.

[DarkLink]

Wound allocation shenanigans haven't been taken out, they have been made worse.

Really? You think taking something that you could do freely and then making it only work on a 4+ makes it worse?

Yes, you can still wound allocate. But it's much, much less reliable now. Plus, whereas last edition where you could stack high ap wounds on one model to make them disappear if you had enough other normal wounds, you can't reliably do that anymore, if at all.

[cobra6]

He may have meant "worse" from either a narrative or real-time-to-do-all-the-rolls standpoint, in which case I would personally agree with him. Before, when I inflicted wounds on Paladins, they got allocated around which from a narrative standpoint could have been the whole unit being struck by a heavy volume of fire or in a wild melee.

Now, these guys in terminator armor are literally leaping 6", doing backflips in the air to thrust themselves in the way of the front guy and take those incoming shots, shouting "look out 'sir'" and then scrambling aside as the other guys come twirling and leaping in from 5" away for their own LoS attempts. Paladins take fire and all of a sudden it looks like cirqe de soliel or a Hong Kong action movie fight scene, terminators doing jungle-time rug drills and cartwheels without their hands, all of them rotating in front of the point man and getting shot by individual incoming bullets. It's hilarious to imagine but really lame from a narrative standpoint.

Plus, to take full advantage of the old wound allocation shenanigans, didn't they each have to have a unique individual loadout? Now they can all have MC psycannons and an even mix of halberds and hammers. The GK players I play against think it overall makes their deathstars stronger.

[DarkLink]

Now, these guys in terminator armor are literally leaping 6", doing backflips in the air to thrust themselves in the way of the front guy and take those incoming shots, shouting "look out 'sir'" and then scrambling aside as the other guys come twirling and leaping in from 5" away for their own LoS attempts. Paladins take fire and all of a sudden it looks like cirqe de soliel or a Hong Kong action movie fight scene, terminators doing jungle-time rug drills and cartwheels without their hands, all of them rotating in front of the point man and getting shot by individual incoming bullets.

That seems pretty cinematic to me.



Plus, to take full advantage of the old wound allocation shenanigans, didn't they each have to have a unique individual loadout? Now they can all have MC psycannons and an even mix of halberds and hammers. The GK players I play against think it overall makes their deathstars stronger.

It was super easy to make unique loads. Mix up your hammer/halberd/psycannons, get your banner and stave, and spend like 15pts on extra master crafted weapons and you were golden. And that was assuming that you actually needed completely unique wargear on every single model, which, frankly, you didn't. 7 unique models out of 10 was plenty.

And the fact remains that it's a lot easier to spend maybe 15 extra points to guarantee wound allocation shennanigans than it is to hope for a 4+. Paladins are still awesome, but that's as much from the power weapon nerf and precision shots as anything else.

[Bean]

He may have meant "worse" from either a narrative or real-time-to-do-all-the-rolls standpoint, in which case I would personally agree with him. Before, when I inflicted wounds on Paladins, they got allocated around which from a narrative standpoint could have been the whole unit being struck by a heavy volume of fire or in a wild melee.

Now, these guys in terminator armor are literally leaping 6", doing backflips in the air to thrust themselves in the way of the front guy and take those incoming shots, shouting "look out 'sir'" and then scrambling aside as the other guys come twirling and leaping in from 5" away for their own LoS attempts. Paladins take fire and all of a sudden it looks like cirqe de soliel or a Hong Kong action movie fight scene, terminators doing jungle-time rug drills and cartwheels without their hands, all of them rotating in front of the point man and getting shot by individual incoming bullets. It's hilarious to imagine but really lame from a narrative standpoint.

I don't think it's as bad as all that--think of it more like the unit making a coordinated advance, one guy moving up, then another, then another, their movement so intricate and precisely timed that their enemies can't bring any significant weight of fire to bear on any one of them in particular. It doesn't have to be acrobatics--just strong coordination.




Plus, to take full advantage of the old wound allocation shenanigans, didn't they each have to have a unique individual loadout? Now they can all have MC psycannons and an even mix of halberds and hammers. The GK players I play against think it overall makes their deathstars stronger.


This was never a problem. Getting everything you needed (including all the master-crafted psycannons you can bring) into your units while keeping everyone unique was a trivial exercise for both five and ten-man units, and never required you to make any bad purchasing decisions.

Look out Sir doesn't make paladins stronger. In combination, a handful of small buffs (challenge rules, the interaction between Look out Sir and Draigo, in particular, precise strikes and shots) largely make up for what paladins lost in the wound allocation area--but if your local GK players really think this is any sort of significant buff, they really just don't know what they're talking about.

[DarkLink]

Just as an example, here's a more or less standard full Paladin squad, with ideal wargear but no master crafted weapons:

10 Paladins
4 Psycannons
3 hammers
1 sword
4 halberds
Warding Stave
Banner

Just by organizing wargear, you could get this:

1. Halberd/Psycannon
2. Hammer/Psycannon
3. Hammer/Psycannon
4. Sword/Psycannon
5. Warding Stave
6. Banner
7. Hammer
8. Halberd
9. Halberd
10. Halberd

7 unique wargear groups, and without getting any master crafted weapons. You have a stave and one sword to absorb blows, hammers to hurt high toughness stuff, halberds to kill stuff before it hits, and the banner to buff them all.

MC one of the Hammer/Psycannons, one of the Halberds, and a Storm Bolter, and you have a 100% unique squad. That's a mere 15 extra points, and you can forego that if you want.


It's mostly irrelevant, now. Now you can just worry about what role each Paladin will play in your unit. You want your Hammer/Psycannons to live to shoot/hammer stuff, you want the stave/sword to be available to tank wounds, you want to keep your Banner alive until you're down to <5 guys, then you can use him as ablative wounds, etc.


Look Out Sir will actually normally take less time than the old wound allocations would, too. You'd used to have to sit there and place dice or something to track who had wounds allocated and who didn't, how many wounds you could stack onto whom, etc, then roll all the saves separately. Now, you can just roll your saves, then roll any fails and on a 4+ place those wounds on whoever you like.

[Bean]

Just as an example, here's a more or less standard full Paladin squad, with ideal wargear but no master crafted weapons:

10 Paladins
4 Psycannons
3 hammers
1 sword
4 halberds
Warding Stave
Banner

Just by organizing wargear, you could get this:

1. Halberd/Psycannon
2. Hammer/Psycannon
3. Hammer/Psycannon
4. Sword/Psycannon
5. Warding Stave
6. Banner
7. Hammer
8. Halberd
9. Halberd
10. Halberd

7 unique wargear groups, and without getting any master crafted weapons. You have a stave and one sword to absorb blows, hammers to hurt high toughness stuff, halberds to kill stuff before it hits, and the banner to buff them all.

MC one of the Hammer/Psycannons, one of the Halberds, and a Storm Bolter, and you have a 100% unique squad. That's a mere 15 extra points, and you can forego that if you want.


It's mostly irrelevant, now. Now you can just worry about what role each Paladin will play in your unit. You want your Hammer/Psycannons to live to shoot/hammer stuff, you want the stave/sword to be available to tank wounds, you want to keep your Banner alive until you're down to <5 guys, then you can use him as ablative wounds, etc.


Look Out Sir will actually normally take less time than the old wound allocations would, too. You'd used to have to sit there and place dice or something to track who had wounds allocated and who didn't, how many wounds you could stack onto whom, etc, then roll all the saves separately. Now, you can just roll your saves, then roll any fails and on a 4+ place those wounds on whoever you like.

Agreed.

Though I actually think putting the banner on a psycannon is a good idea, for the ten-man squad. It could be:

Hammer, Psycannon
Halberd, Psycannon
Sword, Psycannon
Banner, Psycannon
Hammer
Halberd
Sword
Staff
McHammer
McHalberd

And you could go with master-crafted hammer instead of sword on one psycannon.

And you could play an apothecary instead of Sword, if you really wanted to not have any swords, though the Apothecary has always been a kinda dubious buy.

Anyway, as said, trivial. Look out Sir is certainly a nice consolation prize, but it marks a downgrade for Paladins--not an upgrade.

[DarkLink]

I actually use the banner as ablative wounds once you've started taking casualties. Once you drop below, say, five guys, the banner starts to lose its worth, and since it's not a power weapon (and not a big gun if you don't put the psycannon on it), you can absorb some more firepower without much loss.

Though I would consider putting the stave on a psycannon, so you have one guy who's plain boss.

Now, I think the only concern is which order do you remove casualties, if possible. Of your guns, you want your psycannons to live as long as possible, so those are the last four to go. So you put your four most valuable ccws on those four psycannons. That's probably the stave, a hammer, and I think a pair of halberds. Those four are your core, the damage dealers you're trying to keep alive. The other six models mainly bring you extra attacks, some storm bolters, and a lot more durability.

[Bean]

I actually use the banner as ablative wounds once you've started taking casualties. Once you drop below, say, five guys, the banner starts to lose its worth, and since it's not a power weapon (and not a big gun if you don't put the psycannon on it), you can absorb some more firepower without much loss.

Though I would consider putting the stave on a psycannon, so you have one guy who's plain boss.

Now, I think the only concern is which order do you remove casualties, if possible. Of your guns, you want your psycannons to live as long as possible, so those are the last four to go. So you put your four most valuable ccws on those four psycannons. That's probably the stave, a hammer, and I think a pair of halberds. Those four are your core, the damage dealers you're trying to keep alive. The other six models mainly bring you extra attacks, some storm bolters, and a lot more durability.

A fair point, though I'd note that staff hammer halberd banner actually does put out more swings than staff hammer halberd halberd. One fewer halberd swings, one more staff and hammer swing, three non-force-weapon swings, which aren't great, but aren't nothing, either. I still kinda think banner should go on a psycannon--and it keeps all your psycannons unique (which was sorta the point of the exercise, even though it's no longer meaningful), though I'd generally agree that staff should, now.

The only problem with staff on a psycannon is that, if you get into combat early, you'll want to put those big hits on your staff, but when you blow the save and lose a psycannon to what was essentially a wound dump maneuver, you'll feel bad about it. Might still be the right call...but I kinda like having those guys-that-you-want-to-assign-wounds-to not carry important stuff. Cause, you know, they tend to die because you're assigning wounds to them.

Though staff shouldn't be taking nearly as many powerfist-equivalent hits, these days, what with challenges practically ensuring that one of your halberds kills their sargent before he swings.

[DarkLink]

I'd gamble on a 2++ surviving for a while in combat any day.

[Tynskel]

Apothecary wouldn't be too redonkulous. 5+ FNP always except ID. Not too shabby.

[Tabletop Warrior]

I was wondering how the tournament types would try to resurrect their precious wound allocation BS to make multi-wound units broken.

A nob squad is NOT a unit of characters. If a Nob joins a unit of Boyz, HE is a character. If a Wolf Guard joins a unit of grey hunters HE is a character. But a unit of wolf guard is NOT a unit of characters. You guys are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the chart on 410, etc.

And if you do have a character in the unit. then the look out sir wounds should be allocated to the same model until he is dead.

[Bean]

Apothecary wouldn't be too redonkulous. 5+ FNP always except ID. Not too shabby.

Yeah, I think the Apothecary is probably a little better, now, and he was never terrible--just not great. And I still think he's not great. But it's not like he's a catastrophic mistake, either--he's probably very close to being worth his points, at this point.



I was wondering how the tournament types would try to resurrect their precious wound allocation BS to make multi-wound units broken.

A nob squad is NOT a unit of characters. If a Nob joins a unit of Boyz, HE is a character. If a Wolf Guard joins a unit of grey hunters HE is a character. But a unit of wolf guard is NOT a unit of characters. You guys are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the chart on 410, etc.


Yeah, this is just wrong--and even if it were true for Wolf Guard and Nobs, how do you explain Paladins? They're clearly listed as Characters in the chart on 410, and the unit of Paladins is, literally, the only place that Paladins show up in the Grey Knight codex. It's not like the Paladin is also a squad sergeant somewhere else, like Nobs and Wolf Guard.

No, the rules are quite clear: Paladins are characters. So are Nobs and Wolfguard. Not only is your claim directly and specifically contradicted by the rules, but your reasoning falls through in a painfully obvious manner (I mean, how ironic is it that you post this in the thread on Paladins, referring to Nobs and Wolfguard, when, in fact, Paladins are the example that demonstrate the unequivocal flaw in the reasoning you try to apply to those other units?)



And if you do have a character in the unit. then the look out sir wounds should be allocated to the same model until he is dead.

This is also both untrue and entirely baseless. Each wound can be reallocated to any model in the same unit that's within 6" of the character--there's no requirement that they be reallocated to the same model until that model dies.

I get that you're bitter about wound allocation shenanigans surviving, even in this reduced state. I get it--I think most people were hoping that the new wound allocation rules would be a bigger nerf to Paladins and Nobs than it ended up being. But it wasn't, and clinging to your dream in the face of every shred of evidence and logic that is available is no way to go about things.

Personally, I think it's way cooler this way. It keeps Paladins good, but does so in a way that makes much more sense--now it's not their unique gear that's somehow magically keeping them alive, it's the fact that they're all such awesome and distinguished heroes that it's cinematically appropriate to treat each one individually, rather than as another faceless nobody in a blob. The new rules both seriously hinder wound allocation rules and allow for the fun and characterful (appropriately enough) handling of these particularly heroic units.

[DarkLink]

The problem with the Apothecary is still fundamentally the same as it was before. It's not as if FNP is a bad thing, then or now. The problem was, and still is, that is one very expensive upgrade and Paladins are already hard as nails. And since they have multiple wounds, the stuff that really hurts them was, and still is, high AP Instant Death wounds, again making the Apothecary great at stuff you don't really need. He's more usable, but I'd still rather put 75pts to a Dreadknight or squad of Interceptors or something.

[Bean]

The problem with the Apothecary is still fundamentally the same as it was before. It's not as if FNP is a bad thing, then or now. The problem was, and still is, that is one very expensive upgrade and Paladins are already hard as nails. And since they have multiple wounds, the stuff that really hurts them was, and still is, high AP Instant Death wounds, again making the Apothecary great at stuff you don't really need. He's more usable, but I'd still rather put 75pts to a Dreadknight or squad of Interceptors or something.

Right. I mean, the change is that it's worse against bolters (and whatnot) and better against plasma (and whatnot). Plasma was more of a concern for Paladins than bolters, thus the change makes it a little better.

It still does nothing against meltas and lascannons and whatnot, so it's still not a great choice, given how expensive it is.

[Tabletop Warrior]

"But it wasn't, and clinging to your dream in the face of every shred of evidence and logic that is available is no way to go about things."

Funny, but that is exactly what I think of folks who insist on clinging to wound allocation shenanigans.


But you may be right about one thing. I am bitter about 5th edition wound allocation shenanigans. Silly, I know. I was really hoping it had been removed.

After I got the rules, I was happy with them. But I knew I only had to wait a few days to find out how some players were going to cling to the wound allocation shenanigans, and insist that those were the only reasonable interpetation of the rules.

So now I have seen it. And the only support for your entire claim is an entry on the appendix. That's it.

The actual rules never mention any of this stuff. The actual FAQ says nothing about any of this stuff. Since you want to be a lawyer, apply the cannons of legal interpretation. When a statute is vague, is must be interpreted in a reasonable manner in light of the rest of the statute. That is how GAME RULES should be interpreted, too.

The rules set out very clear mechanics for applying wounds. Those mechanics should not be tossed out the window becasue of a single entry on an appendix.

For the sake of arguement, if the entry for paladins did not say "(ch)" what other support is there in the rules for the concept of units of nobs, etc being units of characters?

Wound allocation on multi wound models in 5th was stupid, and you guys are doing everyting you can to make sure wound allocation in 6th has similar stupid flaws. Whatever. Have fun.

Of course this only matters for tournaments. And their should be a standard way to play the game for tournaments. But I think what you guys are doing with wound allocation is just unnecessary and takes away from the fun of the game. GW may clarify this rule. Or they may not. At this point, I think it is open to interpretation.

As for me, I'll continue to play the game the way I think it is most balanced and fun. Because it is after all, only a game. But do you honestly think that is how 40k was intended to be played by the designers? I may be wrong, but I am fairly certain this interpretation never even occurred to them. But I am equally sure they don't care much, so long as you are having fun. And buying more stuff.

[Bean]

Alright, I actually don't really think that it's "open to interpretation," but I'm willing to discuss it. Here's my argument:

On page 410 of the main rulebook, under the headers "Key:" and "Unit types:" it says,

"Character-(ch)"

On the same page, in the table labeled "Codex, Grey Knights," column "Type," row "Paladin," it says, "In (ch)."

I think you'll agree that the "In," means that the Paladin is infantry. According to the very same key which tells us that, the one quoted above, the "(ch)" means that the Paladin is a character.

Now, on page 16 of the same book, there is a box with the header, "Look Out, Sir."

In that box, it says, "When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he's allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt."

The rest of the box goes on to tell us what a "Look Out, Sir attempt" is and how to go about making one. This is with regard to shooting, and there is an equivalent box for melee on page 26.


So, I have a rule which tells me that the Paladin is a Character, and a rule that tells me that Characters can make Look Out, Sir attempts. Thus, I conclude that the Paladin can make Look Out, Sir attempts.


What part of this argument do you disagree with, exactly, and why?

[gcsmith]

Thing is normally it only applies to squad sergants, I mean the rulebook lists Shas'vre as characters, but my commander shas'vre don't count as Characters according to FAQ

[Bean]

Thing is normally it only applies to squad sergants, I mean the rulebook lists Shas'vre as characters, but my commander shas'vre don't count as Characters according to FAQ

Where does this "normally" come from? Not the rules--the rules are pretty clear: it applies to characters, and characters are models with the (ch) type (or the Independent Character special rule).

[celestialatc]

Thing is normally it only applies to squad sergants, I mean the rulebook lists Shas'vre as characters, but my commander shas'vre don't count as Characters according to FAQ

I just looked at the FAQ, and it says all over the place that Shas'vres are Infantry (jetpack, Characters). I don't see where it says they are NOT since it's all over the place. They can make look out sir rolls.

[DarkLink]

What's with this questioning of what is and isn't a character? Squad sergeants are basically automatically characters, but that does nothing to prevent other things from being characters, and it explicitly tells you who is a character in the back of the rulebook.

It doesn't get much more clear than when they explicitly say 'Paladins, Infantry (Character)".

Paladins are all characters. All of them.

This isn't rocket surgery.

[celestialatc]

What's with this questioning of what is and isn't a character? Squad sergeants are basically automatically characters, but that does nothing to prevent other things from being characters, and it explicitly tells you who is a character in the back of the rulebook.

It doesn't get much more clear than when they explicitly say 'Paladins, Infantry (Character)".

Paladins are all characters. All of them.

This isn't rocket surgery.

I think the main problem is that a lot of people were hoping that Wound Allocation shenanigans would go away and they are still here in a new form. I am glad my paladins will still be useful and that Thunderwolf Calvary are not characters! They are much tougher to kill than Paladins.

[Wildcard]

Depending a bit how you wanna run your paladins, but i came across a funny thing today:

A GK librarian can take 2 powers (3 if you pay 50pts more) from Disciple of Divination (or telekinesis/pyromancy obviously). Now, psychic skill number 2 gives you 4+ invulnerable save, that your nemesis force swords can raise to 3++ in close combat. And even if you fail to roll 2 when selecting, you can always take the Primaris Power "Prescience" that lets a single friendly unit re-roll all failed to-hit rolls.

Not bad for a squad of elite paladins + libby + (draigo). By the wording it would seem it includes both shooting and close combat attacks.. Eat twinlinked psycannons and halberds / hammers :)

(I know i know, you cannot "twinlink" ccw's - however, the point stands :) )

[Bean]

Depending a bit how you wanna run your paladins, but i came across a funny thing today:

A GK librarian can take 2 powers (3 if you pay 50pts more) from Disciple of Divination (or telekinesis/pyromancy obviously). Now, psychic skill number 2 gives you 4+ invulnerable save, that your nemesis force swords can raise to 3++ in close combat. And even if you fail to roll 2 when selecting, you can always take the Primaris Power "Prescience" that lets a single friendly unit re-roll all failed to-hit rolls.

Not bad for a squad of elite paladins + libby + (draigo). By the wording it would seem it includes both shooting and close combat attacks.. Eat twinlinked psycannons and halberds / hammers :)

(I know i know, you cannot "twinlink" ccw's - however, the point stands :) )

Yeah, the divination discipline seems like a really good one. Two things, though:

I was under the impression that the librarian got one power for each power he bought (so, five points per power, up to, like, nine)

On a related note, the psychic powers from the GK codex are actually still quite good. Sanctuary and Shrouding in particularly.

But...yeah. I have a soft spot for the divination.

[Seirin]

Basically as title says. First post here and just want to know if the apothecary is worth it for 10-man squads, more specifically squads led by draigo whom I shall be using as a 'tip of the spear' to take lascannon hits and the like - he'll get FNP from anything not S10, so yeh..

Also, as far as the libby with divination goes. Personal opinion is if you want divination, use an inquisitor. 1: hes a damn sight cheaper, 2: he can have a psycannon and join the party. Opinions on this?

And to add to the wound allocation argument; sure its cheap, but the rules currently at least allow it. What I think a lot of people forget is that, while we hope everyone plays for fun, it IS fun to win, and the use of everything you have to do so is only a demonstration of that. Its not unsportsmanlike to play hard, its the people being too serious or *****y that make games unpleasant.

[Bean]

Basically as title says. First post here and just want to know if the apothecary is worth it for 10-man squads, more specifically squads led by draigo whom I shall be using as a 'tip of the spear' to take lascannon hits and the like - he'll get FNP from anything not S10, so yeh..


Maybe for the full ten guys. I still think it's an iffy buy--but that's iffy, not terrible. If you're not running to short on points (especially if you're not playing only paladins) I certainly don't think it's a huge mistake. Just something that I probably wouldn't do.



Also, as far as the libby with divination goes. Personal opinion is if you want divination, use an inquisitor. 1: hes a damn sight cheaper, 2: he can have a psycannon and join the party. Opinions on this?


Yeah, probably. He only gets one power, but the one power he'll get is awfully good.

Darklink pointed out that Coteaz is a beast--bringing two div powers for 100 points, along with his other rules. No psycannon, but he does have artificer armor and a McDaemonHammer. He more than pulls his points worth, easily.




And to add to the wound allocation argument; sure its cheap, but the rules currently at least allow it. What I think a lot of people forget is that, while we hope everyone plays for fun, it IS fun to win, and the use of everything you have to do so is only a demonstration of that. Its not unsportsmanlike to play hard, its the people being too serious or *****y that make games unpleasant.


Agreed. Several times over.

[Seirin]

Cheers for the reply. I was actually short on points for my 2k list and debating whether I could afford the loss of an apothecary.

I've been running a termi-inquis with psycannon over coteaz simply for 1: one less named character, 2: deep strike flex and 3: another psycannon.

List for example..

Draigo
Inquis with termi armour, cannon, psyker and 3 servo skulls

10 pally w/ 4 psycannon, mix of hally/hammer/sword and banner
MC all cannons and 1 hally

10 pally w/ 4 psycannon, mix of hally/hammer/sword and banner

Techmarine with grenade loadout

Vindicare.

Strat is simple: 1 squad to firebase with prescience and 5 psycannons, the other to get the techy and smash things. Both squads eminently flexible, the vindicare does what it can for vehicles. 11 wins to 4 losses atm but any criticism is happily received.

Would an apoth be better than some options?

Edit: Like a moron, I posted how my army was before I finished tweaking.

[Bean]

Cheers for the reply. I was actually short on points for my 2k list and debating whether I could afford the loss of an apothecary.

I've been running a termi-inquis with psycannon over coteaz simply for 1: one less named character, 2: deep strike flex and 3: another psycannon.

List for example..

Draigo
Inquis with termi armour, cannon, psyker and 3 servo skulls

10 pally w/ 4 psycannon, mix of hally/hammer/sword and banner
MC all cannons and 1 hally

10 pally w/ 4 psycannon, mix of hally/hammer/sword and banner

Techmarine with grenade loadout

Vindicare.

Strat is simple: 1 squad to firebase with prescience and 5 psycannons, the other to get the techy and smash things. Both squads eminently flexible, the vindicare does what it can for vehicles. 11 wins to 4 losses atm but any criticism is happily received.

Would an apoth be better than some options?

Edit: Like a moron, I posted how my army was before I finished tweaking.


Seems reasonable. I wouldn't swap any of that out for an apothecary. Darklink advocates Warding Staves in the paladin unit (to suck up challenges and whatnot) and I generally agree. They're a little pricy, but I think I'd rather have two of them than one apothecary.

Grenades are sick, but if it were me I don't think I'd take the techmarine. It hardly seems like they need it, what with two hammerhands and an optional prescience. I'm not sure how much costs, though, so I don't know what you'd get in his place.

One thing I think I would suggest is solo paladins. five of six missions, now, are objective based, and two scoring units just isn't always enough. You can combat squad, of course, and probably will frequently, but there are plenty of reasons to keep them as ten man units, too, and having individual two-wound-terminator scoring units (that can deep-strike as an added bonus, and have a pretty good gun in Holocaust) can be really handy. Sure, they'll die if your opponent really tries, but they're fairly tough and easy to hide and with your draigo and a full ten paladins breathing down their necks, they may not get the opportunity.

[Seirin]

Techmarine with grenades is 120pts, and the added bolster onto the vindicare's perch makes him much more durable.

For challenges I usually have my MC halberd (or prescience'd halberd) go into that to do the 'kill-it-before-it-kills-me' rather than the 'bog it down' method. Will have a play around anyways cus...well staves are useful.

The solodin idea is something I've been considering, and if its your big suggestion then I'll just have to give it a shot or two :D. How many would you suggest? And what loadout? I mostly see hammers but does that beat out halberds? Or even a warding stave and bog a unit down in CC with it?

[Bean]

Techmarine with grenades is 120pts, and the added bolster onto the vindicare's perch makes him much more durable.

For challenges I usually have my MC halberd (or prescience'd halberd) go into that to do the 'kill-it-before-it-kills-me' rather than the 'bog it down' method. Will have a play around anyways cus...well staves are useful.

The solodin idea is something I've been considering, and if its your big suggestion then I'll just have to give it a shot or two :D. How many would you suggest? And what loadout? I mostly see hammers but does that beat out halberds? Or even a warding stave and bog a unit down in CC with it?

I don't think it really matters how many--my thought is mainly just to keep the list low on fluff and turn those points into however many extra little scoring units you can get. Fluff can make a paladin unit better, certainly, but it'll be a pretty amazing unit even without staves and mastercrafting and a banner and an apothecary--and scoring is how you actually win the game--so, you know, just think hard about what actually outvalues a 55 point scoring unit when you've already got your heavy hitters down.

Their loadout doesn't matter a whole lot--but I wouldn't spend points on them (I'd buy them psycannons if I could, but I can't). Hammer lets them anti-tank well, should it come up, and gives them a little versatility, but I'm inclined to say that Halberd is actually going to be a little better in most combats.

That said, a lone paladin isn't going to pull through a fight with even a mediocre combat unit very often, so it's kind of a toss-up. When you come up against a tac squad with a power fist sergeant, you're gonna wish you had the halberd. When you have a charge against a squadron of Demolishers, you're gonna wish you had the hammer. You might base it on your local meta, but, for the broad, all-comer's list, I think it's basically a toss-up.

[Seirin]

Well for now, how does losing the MC on draigo's squad psycannons in exchange for a stave on the inquisitor squad? One squad has a stave and the other has draigo?

[Seirin]

Ignore this...will post elsehwere!

[DarkLink]

If you take prescience, there's no need for any master crafted weapons, so that saves you some points.

And a Xenos Inquisitor with grenades and a single divination power can be very useful as well.

[Seirin]

I'm generally assuming that prescience will be out of range of Kaldors unit, and will focus on his own at any rate.

The xenos inquis point is one I've considered. Cheaper than a techy but offering a lot. My only question is: Does it add more than the deep strike flexibility and psycannon from the malleus?

[Bean]

I'm generally assuming that prescience will be out of range of Kaldors unit, and will focus on his own at any rate.

The xenos inquis point is one I've considered. Cheaper than a techy but offering a lot. My only question is: Does it add more than the deep strike flexibility and psycannon from the malleus?

If you're taking the grenades on the Techmarine, probably not. You'd probably drop the techmarine and the termie inquisitor for the xenos inquisitor, and have actually quite a few points left to spend, I think, is how it would go.

[Seirin]

Fair enough, its a consideration if nothing else. Will games test a few and go from there.