6th ed winners and losers

[DarkLink]

Now that the game's been out for a few weeks, how are people feeling with their armies? Who got buffed, who got nerfed, and who completely changed?


My Grey Knights are still doing pretty well. At the end of 5th, GKs were the top codex, though not by as big of a margin as many complained about. Now, some of our stuff has been nerfed, but plenty of other stuff has been buffed or left alone.

Rhino and Razorback spam is done, so no more Crowe/Coteaz shennanigans. Wound allocation, multi-charge, and power weapon rules have made Driagowing more manageable. The grenades are still ridiculous, but psyrifle dreads are now easier to kill. That seems like a lot of nerfs, but really it just brings parts of the codex in line with the rest of the game, almost as if GKs were designed with 6th ed in mind.

But while the 'cheesy' lists have been nerfed, GKs as a whole will benefit from most of the shift in the game. GKs have never relied on their vehicles for anything, it was just that transports were absurdly good and Gks have great transports. But now that transports aren't auto-includes, everyone's playing a foot game, and that's where GKs excel. Storm Bolters and Psycannons en masse mow down most other armies. And since Gks have widespread access to Scout (the grand strategy), Deepstrike, and Jump Infantry/Shunters, the loss of transports won't really slow them down.

GKs will still be a top codex. But you'll see fewer cheesy list and a wider range of competitive Gk lists. And since Gks already have the widest range of competitive lists of any codex, they'll still be a popular army.




As I understand it, Necrons have done very well. Gauss alone got a big buff. I honestly don't know that much about Necrons, though. I've only played against the new codex once.


And while nidz are pretty controversial, most of the complaints regarding nidz and 6th miss the big picture I think. Nidz are, and always have been an outstanding foot army. They come at you fast, hard, and from multiple avenues, with lots of bodies both big and small. Their single biggest weakness was a relative inability to deal with vehicles, and transports in particular. Now that that's gone, nidz have become inherently more competitive regardless of the minor details of buff/nerfs to various other units.



I think Eldar are one of the few armies that may have gotten more limited. Eldar vehicles got a big nerf with hull points, which mostly invalidates one of the two real ways to play Eldar. Footdar, on the other hand, likely got a buff due to the increased power of psykers and the fact that it plays the foot infantry game pretty well.


Orks got a big buff with the removal of No Retreat wounds and the eased requirement of killling vehicles. Orks were already a top codex, despite what much of the internet thought, and their two weaknesses were their lack of quality ranged anti-tank and the ability of elite armies to stack on the wounds due to Fearless saves. Now that those two things are gone, Orks have a wider variety of competitive lists and will be able to perform more consistently than before.

[daboarder]

I think Nids are gooing to be VERY dangerous this edition, yes a large number of rules hurt us but if the meta de-mech's then there is a lot of nasty things we can do, take Zoanthropes for example, if you run them in your list you can keep them as anti tank or on the fly after knowing your opponents list roll twice on the psychic disciplines, If you were running an infantry list would you like to face a list packing 6 Psychic screams, 1 cataclysm, 1 paroxysm and 4 other psychic powers?

NB cover still owns us, and we are drastically slower now.

[KrewL RaiN]

I have very high hope for Tyranids now. A lot of the stuff that slapped the bugs in the face got nerfed and/or removed. I don't care that they are not the best of the best, I just want them playable again. With all that dumb crap that drove me insane gone, I can confidently play my bugs the way I like to without getting slapped in the face by dumb rules. No more "I can't do this because that rule will rape me with no lube" worries. I can charge my big bugs in with my tide of smaller ones without no retreat wound *****slapping for one thing...

My current big worry is challenges... its just down right unfair what it forces you to do and you cant decline it... the AARGH thing also looks to be a bit of an annoyance. I also dont understand why you can't assault from outflanks/infiltrates anymore.

[SonicPara]

With 6th edition and the FAQs Eldar players got clubbed so hard by the nerf bat that we are all the way down around Tau, maybe even lower.

With all of the FW FAQs coming out, they just keep pushing us down and down. Can't wait for a 6th edition codex to make Eldar not garbage. As it stands now, anything that isn't that one Avatar footdar army is completely terrible.

[gcsmith]

Templars are a major loser, we still over pay for our vehicles. and they got nerfed, we lost preferred enemy and are forced to buy two characters now. Oh and our emperors champion has to challange and yet can't injure most characters due to ap 3 sword. Nice.

[ragnarcissist]

as a space wolves player i dont know how to quite feel just yet... some of my stuff got better (Twolves, mark of the wulfen) but my favorite stuff got a whole lot worse.... frost weapons and my boy ragnar... i guess i have to get a few more games in to let it all sink in.

[DarkLink]

I've heard Tau came out very well. Firewarriors, Broadsides, and Crisis suits are significantly better, at least.

[KrewL RaiN]

I really hope Eldar gets a solid update soon. I know GW would make a buttload of money if they refreshed some of the older models and stuck a shiny new codex on top of it all. DE's refresh was a huge hit and I just know an Eldar refresh would do the same.

[gendoikari87]

I've heard Tau came out very well. Firewarriors, Broadsides, and Crisis suits are significantly better, at least.

Oh god.... oh god, you can rapid fire your full range now right? Oh god, we all gonna DIE!!!!!!!!!!

[Wildcard]

I believe that the FAQs GW released were half hearted and lacked lots of info. So much things to be clarifyed, and as such, i am waiting for a quick next round FAQs to clarify things.

That said, if the new Forgeworld FAQs are anything to go by:

IG:
- Vulture got vector dancer and strafing run
- Valkyrie skytransport got vector dancer

Betting on those FAQ'ed units, IG dex valkyries and especially Vendettas are gonna be monsters..
(For those of you who dont know:
- Vector Dancer: You get to turn your zooming flyer additional 90degrees after your movement
- Strafing run: You get +1 BS against land targets (or those who cannot fluffily fly. Excludes skimmers, flyers,jump infantry etc)

And the ability to fire 4 weapons while zooming:
-for 140 points (iirc) you get 3x TL lascannons + 2x Heavy Bolter (all at BS4 if you shoot at ground targets)
So no more is Vendetta only capable to hunt efficiently vehicles, but also make a good use of its heavy bolters..

[Belial69]

Even excluding the Epidimius alliance, Nurgle got a good boost. Okay so FNP is only 5+ now, but is only ignored by instant death. Toughness bonuses count for ID, meaning anything short of a demolisher cannon or railgun gets 1 in 3 ignored. Slow and purposeful got faster. Blight drones are now full on flyers, with a half range battle cannon no less! And being a daemon has a 5+inv save without having to jink.

[Lerra]

I can verify that Tau got a huge boost. They're definitely competitive now, and I'd expect to see them making a good showing at tournaments. Tau with Eldar allies for psychic goodness, or Tau with IG allies for even more shooting prowess, seems very strong.

Chaos Daemons got a small boost overall. Tzeentch Daemons got a significant boost. Slaanesh daemons got a minor boost. Khorne Daemons got a nerf. Chaos Daemons allied with the new Chaos Space Marines should be strong - I have high hopes.

Dark Angels Deathwing got a nerf just because they can't all deep strike anymore, but they're getting a new codex soon so I'm not worried. And Terminators are tough as hell in 6th.

Necrons got a noticeable boost, especially certain units, like the flyers.

[Tepogue]

Dark Angels Deathwing got a nerf just because they can't all deep strike anymore, but they're getting a new codex soon so I'm not worried. And Terminators are tough as hell in 6th.
.

Does Codex not trump Rulebook anymore? Looking at the Dark Angel FAQ, I see nothing correcting or changing Deathwing Assault.

[gcsmith]

If you have to start in reserve ala Deathwing assault, you ignore the half army start on board thing.

[Uberbeast]

It seems eldar and DE haywire weapons just got a hell of a lot nastier. The high chances of glancing allows them to knock hull points down to nothing in no time flat.

Scourge haywire squads jumping around the table and one-shotting vehicles, here we come.

[eldargal]

Dark Eldar in general got a boost, the main things they struggled with (mech) are easier to kill and their own vehicles are still glass cannon.

Eldar were completely screwed over, mostly due to the age of the book. Footdar isn't much more viable because most of our infantry is terrible and overpriced, and what good infantry have is too fragile to get accross the battlefield without transports. Our transports also, incidentally, are completely useless, fragile junk that we can't even assault out of.

Don't get me started on the FW FAQs either. In seventeen years I don't recall Eldar ever being in such a bad situation.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

Does Codex not trump Rulebook anymore? Looking at the Dark Angel FAQ, I see nothing correcting or changing Deathwing Assault.

Played with them already and Deathwing assault is not a must start but a may. You can compensate with some bikes or attack bikes, as a single 7 bike squad can be 3 deployed units. As bikes are quite good, I just don't mind. Not nerfed at all with the power weapon ap change...

[rle68]

i cant believe all the eldar whiners here i havent played eldar since their dex came out i am playing them now and doing very well

vibro cannons just insta kill flyers and vehicles 3 vibro cannons 150 points 1 dead vehicle a round
pathfinders rock now TROOPS PEOPLE THEY ARE TROOPS 2+ cover save
eldar deny all psychic armies.. news flash eldar stop GK butt cold no more all psychic all the time
wraith guard have a use now insta kill or glance to death

dire avengers always sucked .. guardians ditto

jet bikes rock.. swooping hawks hello

jesus stop whining and think for a change


templars dead and shelved

wolves got shaved.. why would you ever take ragnar now? you wont.. if the flakk missle is a standard upgrade... long fangs will be the only heavy you ever see for them

DE didnt get anything special they still die horribly to shooting and lose close combat now nothing changed the ap3 weapons still kill them .. oh they get their @#$%s cut off assaulting now thank you GW

IG both hit and miss.. hydra flakks own the sky.. but the fact they cant shoot anything else is stupid
armor is done for so thats a curse to them as well

GK lost a lot with all the psychic denial..armor isnt as sturdy anymore gk are still susceptable to ap2 and ap1 weapons so that didnt change in cc tho they are now nasty..

Orks...got snot pounded
Tau... remains to be seen

vanilla marines...werent anything special before not any more now
BLOOD ANGELS got some boosts may be some hope there
Dark Angels... when the dex comes

[DarkLink]

Orks...got snot pounded

Are you kidding? Snikrot sucks now, and Ghaz isn't completely absurd anymore, but Orks are boss. No more No Retreat? No more need to pry 5 man MSU squads out of a parking lot of razorbacks? Lootas can move and shoot to good effect? Orks were already good, and they got plenty of buffs to cancel any nerfs.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

Don´t forget not losing half the orks on board to "Stand Firm" ruling out of fearless...

[Morbid]

Necrons are a major winner for now. That will change imo when the meta fully changes to only have very little armor at all (if any) and we will have to see how they fare without all the new psychic powers.

I'd also like to add that Eldar don't suck as bad as people keep QQing about. I have a footdar build with ally DE for the warriors and a cheap hq and dominated my friends SW army. When I say dominate, I mean dominate. He would usually kick my balls because of the leaf blowers.

I haven't had the chance to get my Nids on the board but I am looking very forward to it. Stacking Zoans backed by a Swarmlord, yup that's the pain.

I haven't done the DW fully deepstriked tactic for a long time, and with the armor buff, I probably wont either. It does hurt that I used LR as a transport for the deathstar squad. Need to re-plan and rethink.

I feel the only real nerfs were justified or hurt only very dated codexs. Yes Eldar always scream murder because the only trick pony they learned to play for years has to be changed. No more mech, roll face with an Avatar. Trust me you'll love it.

Change is good.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Zoas with Swarmy? ow my nads...

[DarkLink]

Footdar got a relative buff. It's just eldar vehicles that all took a big hit, and that's what most eldar players relied on. Eldar will have to adapt a bit. But rapid-fire splinter weapons on foot squads are pretty good now.


Don´t forget not losing half the orks on board to "Stand Firm" ruling out of fearless...

That was the No Retreat I mentioned;).

[Anggul]

i cant believe all the eldar whiners here i havent played eldar since their dex came out i am playing them now and doing very well

vibro cannons just insta kill flyers and vehicles 3 vibro cannons 150 points 1 dead vehicle a round
Very interesting point, I suppose at least they have a use now. Before they were just pathetic and useless, hull points have now made them scary.
pathfinders rock now TROOPS PEOPLE THEY ARE TROOPS 2+ cover save
Still too expensive, even with sniper.
eldar deny all psychic armies.. news flash eldar stop GK butt cold no more all psychic all the time
The thing is, Grey Knights don't need their psychic powers to be good, the powers are just a bonus on top of all of the other stuff they have.
wraith guard have a use now insta kill or glance to death
Wraithguard have always been good, the reason you rarely see people using them is that they cost a stupid amount of money.
dire avengers always sucked .. guardians ditto
Dire Avengers were, and still are, actually pretty damned good. The buff to rapid fire now makes them a lot less impressive though. Guardians I agree, we all know they're rubbish. I yearn for Black Guardians to return for Ulthwe.
jet bikes rock.. swooping hawks hello
Jetbikes are indeed a lot better now due to the (usually) further movement in the assault phase. I hope they hurry up with the new models though, as the current old ones look daft. (mainly the silly directly pointed-up hat) Swooping hawks? Still crappy. If they could assault flyers like they should be able to, then they might see use.
jesus stop whining and think for a change


templars dead and shelved

wolves got shaved.. why would you ever take ragnar now? you wont.. if the flakk missle is a standard upgrade... long fangs will be the only heavy you ever see for them
Wolves are still just as good. The buff to rapid-fire weapons has just made them better just like any marines. Also, you imply that Long Fangs weren't already their best Heavy Support anyway.

DE didnt get anything special they still die horribly to shooting and lose close combat now nothing changed the ap3 weapons still kill them .. oh they get their @#$%s cut off assaulting now thank you GW
Having jink for free is good for DE, as now we don't have to spend out on Flickerfields. Reavers now get a 4+ jink save and even when they're firing their guns. Haywire Wyches are now pretty much guaranteed to wreck any vehicle. Warriors got a great buff just as all rapid-fire did, and they can now shoot full range from a moving Raider, so Splinter Racks will see use. Raiders died easily to almost anything before anyway, if anything they're better off now that they're more likely to be killed by Hull Point removal rather than one shot. Night vision on everything is awesome. Their flyers got better. The only thing that really sucks is the pointless nerf to Furious Charge and Power Weapons. Other than that they got a lot of great things. Their overall forces got a lot better, but their Characters were mostly kicked in the nads by the Power Weapon nerf.

IG both hit and miss.. hydra flakks own the sky.. but the fact they cant shoot anything else is stupid
armor is done for so thats a curse to them as well
Hydras were pretty stupid, I think it's a good thing that they're only able to do anti-flyer now, they were crazy for their cost before.

GK lost a lot with all the psychic denial..armor isnt as sturdy anymore gk are still susceptable to ap2 and ap1 weapons so that didnt change in cc tho they are now nasty..

Orks...got snot pounded
They don't have nearly as much trouble with metal boxes as they used to. In fact I can think of very little validation behind this one.
Tau... remains to be seen
Seem to be a lot better.
vanilla marines...werent anything special before not any more now
BLOOD ANGELS got some boosts may be some hope there
Dark Angels... when the dex comes

Obligatory text.

[Demonus]

I'd also like to add that Eldar don't suck as bad as people keep QQing about. I have a footdar build with ally DE for the warriors and a cheap hq

But you see, this isnt an ELDAR build, it is a Eldar/DE Hybrid. You shouldnt have to take Allies to be feasible. Eldar need a new codex, they are sitting on my shelves until they get one.

GW shot themselves in the foot with the introduction of hull points. All those expensive *** tanks gonna be sitting on their shelves, not getting bought. My 90pts annihilation barge took out a dreadnought and one of them FW giant storm raven fliers yesterday by glancing them both to death in 1 volley each.

[eldargal]

Actually there is some debate about the vibrocannon rule, it states that any vehicle hit by a vibrocannon takes one hit, and as the battery fires as one unit it is unclear if vehicles take one or 3 hits.

Pathfinders remain expensive and while good they have a low volume of fire.

Eldar psykers are very good now, that is true.

Wraithguard have always been good, but they remain expensive both in points and pounds.

Dire Avengers remain good (I also have to question the knowledge of anyone claiming they suck), Guardians do indeed remain terrible.

Jetbikes have indeed received a welcome boost.

Swooping Hawks remain bad, assuming a squad of five survive along enough to use their haywire to glance a vehicle to death they won't survive the ensuing explosion and shooting phase.

Yay, a few units got boosted! That totally makes up for:
Holofields being useless
Howling Banshees being reduced in effectivenes against armour
Having to stand around for a turn after disembarking instead of assaulting.
Scorpions no longer being able to assault after infiltrating.
Wave Serpents, already extremely overpriced, being even more fragile and useles than before (inability to assault after disembarking)
Saves against dangerous terrain have hit the Nightspinners efficiency
Overwatch reducing the effectiveness of how already overpriced assault troops
Virtually all our FW units bar the Warp Hunter and hornets being nerfed to hell.

So now if I want a viable Eldar army, instead of being able to take a farseer, some banshees, fire dragons, dire avengers, falcons, war walkers, nightspinners, jetbikes, striking scorpions, wave serpents, wraithguard etc. I now have a choice of: Farseers, pathfinders, jetbikes, support batteries and wraithguard? Hurrah!

I have always played mech Eldar because it is fluffy and I like the way it plays and looks on the battlefield. Now I can't, so I'm extremely angry about it. I have always taken Howling Banshees and had great results despite what the internet says, now they simply aren't viable because there is no way to get them in contact with the enemy without them being shot to pieces.

Also, I have played some games. I receieved my 6th edition book early and was playing practise games against my brothers while everyone else was still collecting theirs from the shop.

[Morbid]

My Footdar would work just fine without the DE elements. I use Dires, Dragons, Banshees and Avatar Wraithlords and with DE warriors and a cheap HQ.

That being said my friend who plays Eldar as well did very well with pathfinders. You can spout how expensive they are but the tactical advantage they add is more than worth the points. Taking out a squad leader can win you a CC.

Eldar are not nearly in as bad a position as nids. My footdar list does quite well with over watch and focus fire. CC got hurt bad. Chaos khorne berserkers got hit hard badly. Their transports got hit bad and their mobility is flat out bad. I have a build that people would say is "shelved". But I could care less, I will play HOW I want with WHAT I want, and I will not cry a river over losing. I will have fun for playing.

[eldargal]

The difference is 'nids were crap before and a lot of their stuff has been boosted slightly. Still a bad codex but things have gotten better, not worse. In contrast for Eldar our vehicles are basically pointless pointsinks, rendering a huge number of builds non-viable while moderately buffing footdar. I don't consider that a good tradeoff myself.

[Morbid]

The difference is 'nids were crap before and a lot of their stuff has been boosted slightly. Still a bad codex but things have gotten better, not worse. In contrast for Eldar our vehicles are basically pointless pointsinks, rendering a huge number of builds non-viable while moderately buffing footdar. I don't consider that a good tradeoff myself.

Tell that to my pile of useless chaos and marine Rhinos. Difference is, I don't feel the need to cry about it. I just roll a different list.

Yes Nids had a bad dex, and no allies hurts. Nids also have very very few viable builds.That's the hand they were dealt and the hand that me, and other nid players, have to deal with.

All transports are crappy. I wont be using ghost arcs, Rhinos, Wagons, or Wave serpents anymore. Not going to cry about how they aren't as good anymore. Just going to roll a list that has to evolve to new rules.

I was pretty pissed I had to invest so much money in transports just to have them sit, but that's how GW sells models. And to go online and cry about balance seems pointless to me. Warhammer 40k is very similar to League of Legends in terms of balance, New characters/codex > Old characters/codex. That's how each company makes money. Sell new stuff. That's just how it is.

[eldargal]

Gee, I'm so sad your T4 3+ armies 35pt transports are no longer viable, that really makes me feel much better that my T3 4/5+army can no longer use their 100pt plus transports.

Also, pointing out that a codex has been hit hard by 6th is no 'crying' or 'whining', my first post on the subject was quite matter of fact. Eldar needed a new book before and we need a new book now, the difference is now hte number of viable builds is halved. I could adapt, or I could accept that I'm going to have to wait for a new book before I can play my army the way I want. Nothing about this is 'crying'.

[Morbid]

Eldar was my first and most beloved army for years. So I'm the jerk because after spending thousands of buck on Eldar I wanted new armies. Okay I'll take that one for being an "eldar turncoat".

I ended up paying tons of money to have them be useless. I actually have more of a reason to cry about my mech Eldar list than perhaps you do, as that as well as 5 other armies builds got hit, but it just takes time. I'll take the buffs over the nerfs however. Farseers and the Avatar are boss enough to carry the dex till the next one.