Eldar Superheavies in 6th (or WHY DO FW HATE US)

[DrLove42]

So the FW FAQ's are live.

Nothing muhc has changed.With 2 exceptions. Gargantuan creatues are now even more OP for their points.

And every Eldar Superheavy is at least 33% too expensive in points. Why?

They took our vehicles from having a 4+ invulnerable to having a 5+ cover save.

We've gone from having a 50% chance of ignoring a Strength D weapon to a 0% chance (S D still ignores cover)

Eldar superheavies are expensive. But thats cos we had a good save! Not only do we get no save against Strength D or in combat, but we also have a 17% drop in our survivabiltiy against every other weapon.

Urgh. I had just bought a Revenant and was looking forward to using it. Not even going to bother building it now. Any desire to do so is gone

And while we're on the subject - Why do Eldar aircraft (Nightwing) have less hull points than our equivlent aircraft in the DE book (2 vs 3, Nightwing vs Razorwing)

[eldargal]

Email Forge World and/or post on their Facebook page. I'm emailing them right now. This is simply insane, as you say not a single Eldar superheavy is worth their points now.

[DrLove42]

I've put something on their facebook wall, and will be emailing them

Frankly, this travesty aside, this is a piss poor FAQ round. Short of matching flier rules up, renaming the USR's, screwing Eldar players everywhere and giving all vehicles Hull Points, they've done nothing. Hell its probably made more questions.

Right now a Phantom Titan is the ONLY Eldar superheavy worth taking, as he's not been screwed by this...or has he? More questions!

[celestialatc]

I might be wrong but I think Forgeworld took down its Facebook page.

[eldargal]

http://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK

Still there.

[keithsilva]

I swear why is Eldar getting screwd over even more, when there new codex comes out it better not be crap.

[celestialatc]

http://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK

Still there.

Nevermind. Don't know why it was not showing up when I went to look for the it.

Anyway, very disappointing update. I was going to get a super heavy soon but now it's just not worth it.

[DrLove42]

Email sent and writtne on their wall (so anyone on Facebook, the guy complaining about it is me!)

If it wasn't for the fact i'm going on holiday tomorrow i'd even write them a strongly worded ltter (BRITISH!)

Of course this hasn't stopped me from buying the new book....

[Melon-neko]

I've put something on their facebook wall, and will be emailing them

Frankly, this travesty aside, this is a piss poor FAQ round. Short of matching flier rules up, renaming the USR's, screwing Eldar players everywhere and giving all vehicles Hull Points, they've done nothing. Hell its probably made more questions.

Right now a Phantom Titan is the ONLY Eldar superheavy worth taking, as he's not been screwed by this...or has he? More questions!

If you read the first three paragraphs, it says that these are quick guidelines for 6th edition and that FW is working on FAQ's to update everything in their line.

IE, these are not finished FAQ's (not saying you shouldn't email them, I think shrouded for holofields is stupid too)

[eldargal]

I did read that, doesn't change the fact that some of the changes are incomprehensibly stupid and there is no guarantee they will be improved just because this is a WIP. Everyone thought Shdow Spectres would be improved in the finished product and they were worse than expected.

[D'Natagal]

And just like that, the post is gone! I tried to reply, but it said the thread is no longer there.

[DrLove42]

I just realised. We have shrouded

Tau stealth suits have Shrouded and Stealth. Our Titans are less protected than a Tau with a stealth suit on.

Also....I notice the Manta still has its 4++

My post on the Forgewolrd wall is still there

http://www.facebook.com/#!/ForgeWorldUK/posts/498400176843934?notif_t=feed_comment

Or is that not what you mean?

[eldargal]

I'm really, really cranky about this. It was annoying that Shadow Spectres were slightly faster Dark Reapers instead of decent anti-tank, but at least the Revenant Titan was worth taking. It was annoying that th Firestorm is obscenely overpriced and does **** all against its intended targets, but at least the Cobra was worth taking. It was annoying that the Vampire Hunter was incredbily overpriced and couldn't even use its transport capacity because it couldn't hover, but at least the Scorpion was worth taking. It was frustrating that the Space Wolves got more attention in IA11 than the FW exclusive Corsairs, but at least the Phantom Titan was completely wonderful. It was annoying that only one Eldar character of a grand total of two FW have created will ever get a model, but at least the Nightwing was shaping up to be a fantastic AA aircraft.

Now everything that FW Eldar had going for it has been nerfed to worthlessness.:mad:

[Defenestratus]

You guys don't even know how pissed off I am at this travesty. Not only do our titans now have no Str D protection whatsoever, but the introduction of HP into the superheavy formula gimps us even more than it does to other super heavies.

See, other superheavies, the Imperial ones, have AV14. We have at most, 13. They also have more SP as a whole.

My fairly impressive resin collection for Eldar has been turned into an overpriced scrap heap that will not last a single round against my friend's imperator titan.

[isotope99]

The answer is clear:

Counts as Warhound Titan with two turbo laser destructors :p:p

[darth_papi76]

This edition of 40K seems to getting worse and worse for the Eldar armies. There is no reason to change the Titan Holofields whatsoever. If you want to have fun playing 40K, play Imperials or Necrons.

[Gotthammer]

I'm really, really cranky about this. It was annoying that Shadow Spectres were slightly faster Dark Reapers instead of decent anti-tank, but at least the Revenant Titan was worth taking. It was annoying that th Firestorm is obscenely overpriced and does **** all against its intended targets, but at least the Cobra was worth taking. It was annoying that the Vampire Hunter was incredbily overpriced and couldn't even use its transport capacity because it couldn't hover, but at least the Scorpion was worth taking. It was frustrating that the Space Wolves got more attention in IA11 than the FW exclusive Corsairs, but at least the Phantom Titan was completely wonderful. It was annoying that only one Eldar character of a grand total of two FW have created will ever get a model, but at least the Nightwing was shaping up to be a fantastic AA aircraft.

Now everything that FW Eldar had going for it has been nerfed to worthlessness.:mad:


You should email this to Forge World.

[Defenestratus]

This edition of 40K seems to getting worse and worse for the Eldar armies. There is no reason to change the Titan Holofields whatsoever. If you want to have fun playing 40K, play Imperials or Necrons.

Until this is "fixed" - which I'm certain it WILL BE - I will be either playing with my "old" holofields for both my fliers and my titans, or I will not be playing. The titans are worth more to me on ebay than on the tabletop if they stay the way they are.

[Triumphus]

I think that the previous rules were too powerful, especially for the Phantom Titan. A super heavy with that many structure points should never have a 3+ invul save. They are just too powerful. However, it should absolutely have a 4+ invul save at all times. The cover save thing is a travesty and they should renounce that right away.

[Triumphus]

Good luck selling them on E-bay with those rules....

[Defenestratus]

Good luck selling them on E-bay with those rules....

Willing to bet I'd get more for them than they are worth to me on the table right now, which is $0.

As for the Phantom - it has an "enhanced" titan holofield, which is a different rule altogether, and hasn't been FAQ'd - therefore stays at 3++ while moving.

I feel so bad that I get a 3++ save against your 5 foot tall Imperator that has 10 turbolaser destructors in its carpace alone. I really do.

[SonicPara]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I'm seeing things.

Eldar Super-Heavies like the Cobra and Scorpion gained the Shrouded USR. Eldar super-heavies act like skimmers and use all skimmer rules according to the FAQ, therefore they can Jink for a 5+ cover after moving and a 4+ cover after going flat-out. Shrouded automatically buffs this cover save by 2 for 3+ after moving and a 2+ after flat out.

In a duel between a Shadowsword and a Scorpion (same points costs) both tanks are helpless to the other's strength D weaponry; AV plays no part here as strength D auto-penetrates. In this matchup, the Scorpion wins due to its TL Pulsar putting out twice as many strength D shots per turn as the Shadowsword; advantage Eldar.

When being shot at by other, non-strength D weapons the Eldar tanks are seemingly at a massive disadvantage due to their low AV. However, this is where Jink and Shrouded come in to play giving the tank either a 2+ or a 3+ cover save against S6+ weapons that could threaten the Eldar tank through mass glancing hits or a lucky penetrating hit. In this regard, the save has improved so Eldar tanks are more resilient against non-strength D fire.

All in all, we trade a huge advantage over other strength D for an even larger advantage over non-strength D while still being able to dominate comparable and similar priced vehicles through superior rate of fire on Pulsars. The change to Eldar Titan Holo-Fields was certainly a nerf but it seems like Eldar super-heavies still dominate Imperial counterparts.



Willing to bet I'd get more for them than they are worth to me on the table right now, which is $0.


While the changes are disheartening (I'm more upset about the impact on Codex: Eldar) I've always loved the Eldar Scorpion and would grab one in a second if one was put up for sale.

[eldargal]

The irony is I just realised thatthe Phantom Titan Holofields are unaffacted, as they are Enhanced Eldar Titan Holofields rather than Eldar Titan Holofields which is now useless. So a small ray of sunshine. It still means that our flyers are usless, the revenant is useless and our Engines of Vaul are useless though. Too much stuff now outranges Eldar weapons and ignores cover saves.

Edit: Ninja'd by Defenstratus 9 hours ago... Lern2readalltherepliesbeforepostingyoudumbblonde.

I think that the previous rules were too powerful, especially for the Phantom Titan. A super heavy with that many structure points should never have a 3+ invul save. They are just too powerful. However, it should absolutely have a 4+ invul save at all times. The cover save thing is a travesty and they should renounce that right away.

[Surendil]

Good luck selling them on E-bay with those rules....

Well, it seems GW/FW has decided that eldar armies were going to be only for the collecting part of the hobby, so...

[DrLove42]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I'm seeing things.

Eldar Super-Heavies like the Cobra and Scorpion gained the Shrouded USR. Eldar super-heavies act like skimmers and use all skimmer rules according to the FAQ, therefore they can Jink for a 5+ cover after moving and a 4+ cover after going flat-out. Shrouded automatically buffs this cover save by 2 for 3+ after moving and a 2+ after flat out.

In a duel between a Shadowsword and a Scorpion (same points costs) both tanks are helpless to the other's strength D weaponry; AV plays no part here as strength D auto-penetrates. In this matchup, the Scorpion wins due to its TL Pulsar putting out twice as many strength D shots per turn as the Shadowsword; advantage Eldar.

When being shot at by other, non-strength D weapons the Eldar tanks are seemingly at a massive disadvantage due to their low AV. However, this is where Jink and Shrouded come in to play giving the tank either a 2+ or a 3+ cover save against S6+ weapons that could threaten the Eldar tank through mass glancing hits or a lucky penetrating hit. In this regard, the save has improved so Eldar tanks are more resilient against non-strength D fire.

All in all, we trade a huge advantage over other strength D for an even larger advantage over non-strength D while still being able to dominate comparable and similar priced vehicles through superior rate of fire on Pulsars. The change to Eldar Titan Holo-Fields was certainly a nerf but it seems like Eldar super-heavies still dominate Imperial counterparts.





While the changes are disheartening (I'm more upset about the impact on Codex: Eldar) I've always loved the Eldar Scorpion and would grab one in a second if one was put up for sale.

Although tjere is a certain element of truth in your words (3+ jink save) consider that Revenant titans dont get that save. Neither do fliers unless they go to BS1. And unlike most other fliefs our weapons arent twinlinked, making BS1 more of a punishment to us than other races.

[Defenestratus]

The Revenant is hurt the most by these changes. Furthermore, some of us rely on on our invulnerable saves when someone (Triumphus) rolls up with this:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LBso0I_VcJU/Tt6G6VCLTDI/AAAAAAAAR9g/_tNgbgZte3A/s800/warmaster%2520class%2520titan.jpg

[DrLove42]

Im actually pissed off by all the people trying to defend the change on the FW facebook. There main argument is;

"why should you get protection if i dont....i mean sure i have highrr armour, more guns (important now weapon destroyed is randomised) and void shields and cost nearly half as much....but why should you get something unique

[eldargal]

Yep. Somehow the fact that our superheavies are more durable against the S6-8 fire that was too busy IDing our infantry and crippling our transports/walkers to shoot them anyway doesn't feel me with joy. Oh, the cheaper IoM superheavies die just as easily against D-weapons? How terrible, I'm sure the fact that your titans are a ****load better than ours in no way compensates for that.:rolleyes:

[gcsmith]

I really feel for you guys, but at least you get Titans. All my Tau get are a couple of fliers.

[Tynskel]

a couple of flyers!?!?!

You have the best fliers in the game!

[gcsmith]

Personally, I don't really care about that. I want a titan. Also, I hardly call a flier with only a ion cannon good.

[DrLove42]

Live from Florida!

Got an email from FW. Apparantly there was a mistake. Its shrouding AND a 5+ invulnerable.

So find 25+ cover and get that 3+ save against normal stuff.

Stuff is still a little overcosted....but seems better.

[Defenestratus]

Live from Florida!

Got an email from FW. Apparantly there was a mistake. Its shrouding AND a 5+ invulnerable.

So find 25+ cover and get that 3+ save against normal stuff.

Stuff is still a little overcosted....but seems better.

I got the same email DrLove42 (BTW where are you in FL?) and I also got a followup email that basically said this:


Hi,

Thanks for your e-mail. As the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 has been available for a little over a week, we are almost certain to amend and modify these updates as time passes. We welcome all playtest feedback that includes examples of of how the issue has arisen in play, so please don't hesitate to either send us some specific instances that we can pass to our rules guys, or alternatively play a few games and then let us know what specific issues the new rules have created.
We look forward to hearing from you!


So use these new rules and get back to them with what happens. I think they'll find that the Revenant titan is still hosed.

[eldargal]

Honestly I'm ok with this for the superheavies and to some extent the Revenant (assuming the 25% coverage rule for vehicles applies to titans?). The Phantom deserves better though, its basically gone from slightly better than a Reaver to on-par with, which may seem fine until you remember the fluff has the Phantom the equal of a Warlord titan, and it is a long, long way off that.

[Defenestratus]

Here's the official word btw from FW in the email I got:


Hi,

Thanks for your e-mail. There is a slight typo in the Eldar Titan Holofield rules and they should read as follows:

ELDAR TITAN HOLO-FIELDS

Eldar Titans have holo-fields that are even more effective than the ones the Eldar use on their smaller vehicles, turning them into discordant blazes of light and shadow as they move. If a model with this equipment has moved in the previous turn or arrived via Deep Strike, it counts as having the Shrouded special rule and a 5+ Invulnerable save. In the case of Enhanced Titan Holo Fields such as carried by the Phantom Titan the Invulnerable save is 5+ if the Titan has remained motionless in the previous turn increasing to 4+ if it has moved.

Regards
Forge World


The revenant is hurt the most by this since it can't act like a skimmer to get a jink save. Plus our fliers are still trash.

[eldargal]

Still ok with it for the large skimmers, it's basically a perpetual 3+/5++. I keep thinking the Revenant has 5SPs, it only has 3 so it is still far too fragile with a 5+/5++. As to flyers with new rules in Aeronautice it is hard to see what's going on there, we may not have the full picture. I'm hoping the Nightwing 2HP thing is a typo also. I think the Phoenix is shaping up to be a rather good anti-ground platform though.