Grey Knights done in 6th?

[Daemondad]

I was just wondering what everyone's opinion of the Grey Knights in 6th edition. With the game clearly headed to "he who shoots wins", can the small, elite, forces make enough saves to hold their own against tons of firepower from horde armies, or withstand 2-3 units of Marines walking up and double tapping? Even in objective games, due to their low numbers, can you really afford to sit troops on objectives while your few others go out and try to contest or capture others?

[Saint_Anger]

I think Grey Knights always have trouble of outnumbered in 5th too not just in 6th. As Grey Knights always are outnumbered, things are a lot harder when playing in objectives, trying place objectives nearest to your units and other objectives can help you stick your units together. But that’s not buying victory, Grey Knights are to attack hard and precisely as they got better-than-average wargears. Just stick together and spearhead where enemy is weak.

[DarkLink]

Grey Knights are fine. No more purifier spam, because transports got nerfed and 5-man Marine squads are easy to kill. No more acolyte spam, for the same reasons. But both units are still good, and useable, as is the rest of the codex. And Driagowing is still strong, though the changed to objectives, multi-charges and wound allocation nerfed them a little bit.

Overall, GKs are still a top army, and the few things that people had any right to complain about turned out to be brought in line by 6th ed.

[Jaeger wulf]

Still decent IMHO, but the thing I miss more than anything in a draigowing is having the ability to go first in most combats due to NFH's and my opponent not getting saves out of it, in return however, with the AP3 power weapon nerf, the paladins are less fragile in return to things like banshees...

[The AKH]

Do bear in mind that against anything less than Terminators, Honour Guard, Sanguinary Guard, Meganobz, etc... paladins with halberds will still be ignoring armour. You just have to re-evaluate your assault targets.

[Mr Mystery]

Pretty much are with the above.

Nothing in 6th has been made useless. However, several builds of army have now been reined in. They'll still get the jon done, they just need to work for it now.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

They all have storm bolters as default, they'll be fine.

[Surendil]

Well, look out sir has made vindicator assassins a lot worse in their role of ~ehem~ assassination.
With the vehicles changes, we won't see so many of them (and they'll be less resilient) so the hated 4d6 trick won't be so useful. They're still good picking special weapons, but I don't know if it's worth it.

But the rest of the army hasn't seen any important nerf.

[plawolf]

I feel that pure Gk lists are now going to struggle hard against some builds, especially those with lost of 2+ saves as they now seriously lack any means to take down terminator armour in shooting or assault.

In 5th, not having many options for low AP firepower mattered less as GK units could still always take them down in CC with their NFW. Now everything but hammers will be plinking right off.

Sure you can take plasma/melta henchmen, but with the nerf to transports, the chances of them being around long enough to do their intended job just got a whole lot smaller.

As such, I can see a lot of GK lists taking allies, or even GK being somewhat sideshowed into an allied role to build really take all comers lists whereby a few GK hammer units are supported by massed cheap marine plasma and melta etc.

Although on the bright side, my Pure GK lists should be less common.

[Neelam]

I think interceptors will see more use - especially with psybolts. Being able to reliably shunt 30" and glance rear armor to death with stormbolters will be very useful. Along with the changes to jump infantry they should be pretty decent.

[xilton]

I don't beleive we got close to a nerf over all.

NDK are now S10 instead of 6 (doom fist only) which is a big boost. the heavy psycannon is now viable since you no longer only count the center on vehicles. not to mention 2++ save being stronger now. We should see a lot more of these now.

Storm bolters with psy ammo can wreck any AC 11 in 1 turn instead getting shaken and stun. 1 normal squad of 10 should be able to make about 1-2 6s per turn for penetration. these tanks are only 3 hull points.

Cover saves are now 5+ instead of 4+ in many cases. Will be easier to kill units

rhinos and rbacks will still be balanced in terms of doing their job. Before they were doing more then their job.

Enemy 2++ well unless you had a cc army which is not very common with GK, you're still stuck at over shooting them to roll 1s so not much of a nerf there unless cc and you should have hammers here and there anyway

My biggest concern are the land raiders, dreadnoughts and stormravens.
SR as transports become pretty much useless since 3 hull points will be easy to get and at 205 pts. to expensive. It was too expensive already. maybe for zooming but we do not have the same firepower as the BA one with their missiles.

LR with 4 hull points, against many shooty armies you'll have a hard time getting your troops in cc before it wrecks.

Psyriflemen are now very fragile also. Will we still see 3 on the table? not sure

We will see more foot on the table no doubt about it. I haven't played yet with the new rules and I play it shooty with many tanks usually. I'll surely play the same list and see how it goes with the new rules before adjusting my comments.

[Kawauso]

@xilton: I agree with most of your points but I think you are severely overestimating how vulnerable hull points make vehicles.

All that change does, I think, is take vehicles from being "derp, why aren't you taking max. transports?" to "do i need a transport for this unit?"
Shooty vehicles are still going to be important - and are now slightly better at their jobs. Yes, they're easier to attrition, but they're still tough targets that can put out a lot of hurt. Don't forget cover is easier for them to get now (even if much of the time it's worse).

Also, flyers in zoom mode only being hit on 6s is a pretty big deal for survivability. If something doesn't have Skyfire (i.e. pretty much everything) then 99% of the time it's not going to be worth shooting at a zooming flyer. A rifleman dread is only going to get 1 or maybe 2 hits in a turn, and then it needs additional 5s/6s to hurt something like a Stormraven...and the SR always has the option to jink.

Plus don't forget zooming flyers can use 4 weapons per turn. For something with as many guns as a Stormraven that's a pretty big deal.

[xilton]

I understand your points. I have mentioned in another thread about the hull points. What I was saying is that the hull points will mostly affect armies where people were using just a couple. Those that use 5-7+, will most likely still use them because even if more fragile, it's still many hull points to chew. Just need to adjust your troops since they will most likely see more daylight now then before. which you'll do anyhow since you have to disembark to control an objective..

flyers, well 6s when you shoot at them is not that bad and you will get some in + your pen results if needed unless you have more important targets. before they had a cover save for moving that fast so for me comes down to about the same (do they still have a cover save for moving fast. didn't see that one pass by). However, the storm raven doesn't have 4 weapons really like the one the BAs have. our missiles are pretty much a joke and at 205 pts for a MM and lets say plasma and that you're most likely not going to use very much as transport cause if you do, they'll die unless all you do is DS your content while zooming, I feel this vehicle will be widely less used for its sudden limited usage and high points. I always considered them to costly (especially with those missiles) and now even more so.

Our psyriflemen will be more fragile also because of hull points. In general, like most armies, these types of armies are more fragile and I believe by a lot. I could be to severe right now. I'm playing my first game tomorrow so I'll be able to make a better judgement since I often play 2-3 dreads and 3-6 tanks.

[Kawauso]

6s to hit means it's unlikely you'll 'get some in', though. It makes it virtually worthless to shoot at flyers with most units (unless you're Orks).

Like I said - the SM staple for light anti-armour, the rifelman, only has a chance of getting 1, maybe 2 hits per turn. And then it has to roll just as well again on those 1-2 hits to do anything.

And the GK Stormraven still puts out a lot of hurt with a potential 4 weapons - especially anti-infantry hurt. Don't forget you can load it up with 2 hurricane bolter sponsons...and with PoTMS you can target a piece of armour with any anti-tank weapon it might happen to have...

You just have to remember the GK Stormraven is more of an anti-infantry platform than the BA variant.

[xilton]

True for the SR but I play vs mech armies mostly. wonder how they'll change their armies. Will have to wait and see.

Thanks for you feedback guys

[DarkLink]

I feel that pure Gk lists are now going to struggle hard against some builds, especially those with lost of 2+ saves as they now seriously lack any means to take down terminator armour in shooting or assault.

But Gks didn't really kill terminators in assault. We shoot them to death. Less risky. Pack in the storm bolters, and by the time the Terminators reach combat, you'll have enough mere AP3 attacks left to finish them off. You might take one or two powerfists, but you'll get your hammer as well. I'm not particularly intimidated.


@xilton: I agree with most of your points but I think you are severely overestimating how vulnerable hull points make vehicles.


A squad of GKs with psybolt ammo will kill pretty much any AV11 or lower vehicle in a single round of shooting. Give psybolt ammo to everyone, and vehicle will die like flies. Deepstrike behind enemy lines, shunt with Interceptors, outflank with the Grand Strategy, and you can hit rear and side armor easily. GKs were already good at killing light armor, and that's only gotten easier.

You will need to take a Storm Raven and equip it with stuff to kill other fliers, though. That's the only way to kill them at this point.

[Kyban]

You will need to take a Storm Raven and equip it with stuff to kill other fliers, though. That's the only way to kill them at this point.
Or just take allies that are better at that. :D

[xilton]

Or just take allies that are better at that. :D

True but you're also stuck taking an HQ and troop that you might not want and use up precious points.

[bforber]

GKs are fine. They're just not an army that everyone can just pick up and beat people right away like people cried about all during 5th.

[Wildcard]

10man Grey Knight Strike Squad:

Melee:
11 to 21 str4/5 ap3/2 ~4+ attacks at I4/1 (ofc this depends on the loadout of the squad)
Pros: ap3/2
Cons: You are prone to casualties aswell..

Shooting:
16x Str5 ap5 3+ shots to 24"
4/8x Str7 ap4(/rending) 3+ shots to 24"


So, GK got "their thing" fortified, while making it more situational when to attack.

I bashed my keyboard at first when i saw forceweaps being ap3, but i am getting used to it now..
Also, one thing that truly benefits GK is the ability to transport 2x combat squad in a rhino
-> Full speed to the strategically valid point -> exit vehicle -> part ways -> start blasting stuff up!
And if you want to go into CC, just take landraider / stormraven to your CC-troops transport (and possibly one razorback with the odd weapon if you got the points..

[DarkLink]

I'm looking forward to overwatch.

I think combat squads will be even more situational now, though. 5 man squads will drop quickly, don't benefit as much from overwatch, don't have as much protection because transports are nerfed, etc.

[cobra6]

I had a GK Librarian and a big unit of Paladins make my Sanguinary Guard and a unit of hammernators look like chumps in a game last night. The Paladins had already taken four plasma pie-plate direct hits right in the face, and lost... 2 guys, thanks to the Cirque de Soleil "look out sir" shenanigans and FNP because of the objective rules for that game.

Anyway, the GK Libby cast Sanctuary, which caused both the Sang Guard and the hammernators to fail their charges. Overwatch from that many master-crafted psycannons killed most of the Sang Guard, and the next turn those same psycannons killed 5 of 7 hammernators (rolled alot of ones, but that was alot of saves to make.) The rest of the GK's shot down the rest of the Sang Guard. The Paladins elected NOT to assault the hammernators, survived all my shooting, and when the hammerers finally got to attempt another charge, they were wiped out by the MC psycannon overwatch.

Those paladins went on to endure two turns of every plasma cannon and twi-linked lascannon I could throw at them, and lost.. 3 more guys (admittedly due to some insanely lucky invulnerable save rolls.)

Grey Knights' bread-and-butter has always been mid-range shooting, and 6th edition IMO is the edition of mid-range shooting. If anything, GK's have gotten better, unless you try to play them the same way as Khorne Berzerkers.

[rle68]

the end of gk is spelled in the end of psychic powers

take away their powers they are over priced marines
weapons that now ignore armor saves will ruin them
ap2 and ap1 weapons will eat them alive

any eldar 2 farseer runes of warding build 4d6 added together take a wound on 12 up ends your psychic checks

or better yet space wolves eldar allied njal and eldrad eldrad says 3d6 added togther oh you passed that did you doesnt matter njal 3+ to deny says no thank you

[DarkLink]

Aside from your lack of complete sentances, nothing you've pointed out was any different than in last edition. And since all GKs are psykers, combining the Aegis and a 5+ Deny the Witch is pretty solid psychic defense themselves. Eldar and Space Wolves have always had the best psychic defense in the game, nothing about that has changed. And for every other army in the game, psychic powers are just as dangerous.

And if you take away GKs psychic powers, all you're left with is a Marine with a power weapon with bonuses ranging from being a thunderhammer to +2I, str 5 storm bolters on everything, psycannons galore, outflanking and movement shenanigans thanks to things like Interceptors and The Grand Strategy, and a variety of other little toys. Not exactly weak.

If you're a GK player, and you're relying on psychic powers to win, you're doing it wrong.

So if you only play Eldar (who got hurt in a lot of other ways by 6th ed) and Space Wolves, then don't take a GK Librarian. Everything else is perfectly viable.

[Bean]

It's true. Psychic powers are nice, but they're not what make GK good.

And psychic defense got weaker for most armies that had it. SW, Eldar, and Tyranids kept their psychic defense, but the crazy nerf to psychic hoods actually helps grey knights a fair amount.

Deny the Witch, on the other hand, doesn't really hurt them much at all--most of their psychic powers don't actually target enemy units, so they don't trigger Deny the Witch. Far from being gone, Hammerhand, Warp Quake, Force (weapon activation), Sanctuary, Shrouding, Might of Titan (I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple, but whatever) all got a little better (thanks to psychic hoods not working against them at all, now) rather than worse.

[bfmusashi]

Well, look out sir has made vindicator assassins a lot worse in their role of ~ehem~ assassination.
With the vehicles changes, we won't see so many of them (and they'll be less resilient) so the hated 4d6 trick won't be so useful. They're still good picking special weapons, but I don't know if it's worth it.

But the rest of the army hasn't seen any important nerf.

Vindicare's still great at what he does, his target priority has just changed. Instead of going for the characters and crippling Ld he focuses on crippling a unit's offensive ability. Heavy weapons, special weapons, those little guys Tyranid HQs attach with to be infantry become the primary targets. I used my old DH vindy for tank popping primarily, but see him more as a setup unit now. He can pin units that have defensive abilities (grenades, counter charge, etc.) and negate any penalty I could expect in the assault.

[DarkLink]

I've never understood why people like the vindicare so much, because he's such a massive glass cannon that I've literally never seen nor heard of him making his points back or even drawing enough fire to justify taking him. Yet people still talk about him on occasion.

[Bunglefish]

I've never understood why people like the vindicare so much, because he's such a massive glass cannon that I've literally never seen nor heard of him making his points back or even drawing enough fire to justify taking him. Yet people still talk about him on occasion.


First post (woo! :cool: )
he worked fairly well for me last night against Necron at 2k...
I took a Vindicare and a Callidus and then an Aegis Defence Line fortification with an Icarus Lascannon and stuck both assassins in a nice little bubble of Aegis lines, (3+ cover saves thankyouplease) firstly, the Callidus was sitting on the Icarus, (watching my friends face drop when i started shooting a BS8 Anti Air gun at him was quite funny, i have to say) with the Vindicare covering her. (he was also popping shots into the robots that tried to pick up the objective marker)
Then when a squad of warriors got close enough, the assassins swapped and the callidus ran (or walked in 6ths case) towards the squad, flamed them (its ap 1 even if it was 6's to wound) and charged (oh the irony of using a C'tan Phase sword against the Necrons) ... .. great fun :D

[DarkLink]

Actually, with fewer vehicles now the vindicare might be a bit more worthwhile. You can spend more time using him for what actually makes him good (picking out special weapons and characters from squads) and less time using him as an expensive and fragile tank killer.

I still suspect that against most any competent opponent, he'll be dead before he gets to make a real difference. That's all I've ever seen happen to him.

[bfmusashi]

I've never understood why people like the vindicare so much, because he's such a massive glass cannon that I've literally never seen nor heard of him making his points back or even drawing enough fire to justify taking him. Yet people still talk about him on occasion.

I've never had a problem getting him to "make his points back" but I also take a more synergistic approach to my builds. He's not for killing big HQs but momentum control and negating the opponent's advantages. He's also the only unit outside IG Vets I've been able to crack Land Raiders with, so I'm a little biased. He's not going to kill sergeants and commissars anymore but never underestimate a well timed pinning roll.
I'm looking forward to trying him with the new codex/rulebook. His new ammo rules, his constant 6+ (or better) cover save, and his AP 1 pistol/rifle set make him a real bugger to deal with. Oh, and he can still outflank, which is awesome if your opponent is doing an artillery depot.