Vibro-Cannon great AA and light vehicle?

[JMichael]

Eldar Vibro-Cannon. First off, Artillery just got a lot tougher. Add a warlock with conceal (5++) and even more survivability.
Rolls to hit, one d6/weapon in battery. Add a Warlock to boost BS of one shot from 3 to 4.
Draw a straight line 36" in any direction from any of the weapons.
It also auto-glances vehicles!

Imagine 2 Batteries of 2...can bring down a flyer/turn.
Throw in Guide when you need it...get a good line up and hit multiple vehicles per turn.

Thoughts, ideas?

[antennafarm]

just thinking the same thing, really! although the warlock won't get you increased BS. the enhance power only increases WS and I.

but still! it might also give some use to harlequins (counter-charge/protection duties)

[JMichael]

just thinking the same thing, really! although the warlock won't get you increased BS. the enhance power only increases WS and I.


The warlock can shoot one of the artillery guns (BRB p46 states that characters that can be added to the crew can shoot the weapons). This was the same in 5th.
IC's attached cannot shoot the weapon.

Gonna bring 2 units of 2 vs Necrons tomorrow and nail his Arks and Walkers!

[Subexarch]

If Im not mistaken aren't "lines" now considered templates? If so they can't be used to hit flyers. I don't recall that being FAQed, but the precident has been set.

[rle68]

If Im not mistaken aren't "lines" now considered templates? If so they can't be used to hit flyers. I don't recall that being FAQed, but the precident has been set.

i have no idea where you got lines are templates they are not nor have they ever been..until the word template is used they shoot a line and they affect flyers and anything under the line for 36 inches

[Subexarch]

Hmm. I don't know where I got the "line is a template" thing. May be in one of the fantasy FAQ's. Cannon rules I think. Anyway, Vibocannons dont effect "everything under the line", They effect "any unit the line passes through". The line would literally have to be amed up at the hull of the flyer (the base is always ignored as per the BADAB). Could the max 45 degreed elevation rule be used to prevent being shot?

Bear in mind I play Eldar. I know this may be a possibilty now, but I wouldn't gat to used to it. It's going to get FAQ'ed eventually.

[eldargal]

A template is a very specific thing in the GW ruleset, template refers to either the blast markers or the flamer template. If it doesn't use those it isn't a template.

Having said that I'm still not sure how vibrocannon would work on flyers.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Vibrate the hell out of it until it falls apart?

[thecactusman17]

They don't work. You need to roll to hit each target with snap fire weapons, and vibro cannons only roll to hit once. At minimum, you would be rolling to hit on 6s if you were firing at aircraft.

[Defenestratus]

They don't work. You need to roll to hit each target with snap fire weapons, and vibro cannons only roll to hit once. At minimum, you would be rolling to hit on 6s if you were firing at aircraft.

Vibro cannons have their own targeting rules. Codex trumps rulebook right?

[JMichael]

I do believe that codex shooting rules would trump the rulebook. And if don't need to roll 6's because you never actually pick a target with Vibrocannons (you lay the line over friendly units and CC-this is specifically mentioned).

Vibrocannons do effect skimmers (states they interfere with their anti grav systems, which the flyers must have as well-to fly so slow and with their lack of proper wings and such).

[thecactusman17]

They effect skimmers, Sure. But unless a flyer is in Hover mode, it isn't a skimmer, and you have to snap-fire at it. Snap fire only allows weapons that roll to hit their targets. Blasts, templates, and any weapon that doesn't roll to hit cannot be fired.

[JMichael]

They effect skimmers, Sure. But unless a flyer is in Hover mode, it isn't a skimmer, and you have to snap-fire at it. Snap fire only allows weapons that roll to hit their targets. Blasts, templates, and any weapon that doesn't roll to hit cannot be fired.

I disagree. You never actually target anything with the Vibro Cannons, but you do still roll too hit.
Snap Shot just states that any weapon that does not require a BS roll cannot do a snapshot.

Vibro Cannons do need a BS roll to hit, but since they don't need to pick a target they don't snap shot and roll regular BS roll.

Regardless of the unit type, every unit the 36" line passes through are hit.

[JMichael]

All that being said. I wouldn't complain if they FAQ'd it so VibroCannons couldn't effect zooming flyers. But until then...

[Defenestratus]

All that being said. I wouldn't complain if they FAQ'd it so VibroCannons couldn't effect zooming flyers. But until then...

Don't worry - continuing GW/FW's recent history of completely ****ing over Eldar - this will be forthcoming. Until then, the vibrocannon's targeting rules do not abide by the normal shooting rules, and there is no rule that says that Flyers are exempt from the vibrocannon shot.

[rle68]

They don't work. You need to roll to hit each target with snap fire weapons, and vibro cannons only roll to hit once. At minimum, you would be rolling to hit on 6s if you were firing at aircraft.

uhm no you dont it doesnt say anything close to that it says "the" target nothing is mentioned about multiple targets doesnt say it dont assume it does

[rle68]

Vibro cannons have their own targeting rules. Codex trumps rulebook right?

codex does trump rule book yes.. but ... one page says vibro canons are artillery another page says they are heavy weapons.. rule book says artillery can not snap fire so vibro canons can not be targeted at flyers however you can target another enemy unit in front of the flyer and when the line extends the flyer is hit as well.. and please spare me the line doesnt reach that high .. how do you know? no one has ever said the line lies along the ground and doesnt go above 1-2-3 feet high far as we know the line extends direct up to infinity 1 mm thick

[rle68]

They effect skimmers, Sure. But unless a flyer is in Hover mode, it isn't a skimmer, and you have to snap-fire at it. Snap fire only allows weapons that roll to hit their targets. Blasts, templates, and any weapon that doesn't roll to hit cannot be fired.

you are partly correct.. any weapon that has no ballistic skill may not be fired... never says anything that doesnt roll to hit cannot be fired.. so please stop saying it that way .. doesnt really matter is there any weapon with a bs skill that doesnt roll to hit? (besides what we already established?)

[rle68]

I disagree. You never actually target anything with the Vibro Cannons, but you do still roll too hit.
Snap Shot just states that any weapon that does not require a BS roll cannot do a snapshot.

Vibro Cannons do need a BS roll to hit, but since they don't need to pick a target they don't snap shot and roll regular BS roll.

Regardless of the unit type, every unit the 36" line passes through are hit.

i agree with your intent but there are problems

1 snap shots are the only shots that can be fired at flyers.. 2. vibro canons can not snap shoot as they are listed as both artillery and heavy weapons one says yes the other no... but you can target another unit and as long as that line runs through a flyer its hit

[rle68]

Don't worry - continuing GW/FW's recent history of completely ****ing over Eldar - this will be forthcoming. Until then, the vibrocannon's targeting rules do not abide by the normal shooting rules, and there is no rule that says that Flyers are exempt from the vibrocannon shot.

100% agree

[JMichael]

Targeting never comes into it.
Vibrocannons never target anything (the wording is important). They roll to hit (with no target) then draw a straight 36" line and all units under are hit. You could therefore only hit friendly units if you so wished.

You could hit multiple flyers, or flyers and vehicles and friendly units. Whatever you like!
Since you're not targeting anything you don't actually snap fire.

[JMichael]

Under the Flyers section it is worded in a way to make this a bit more confusing.
'Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots'

I'm even more confused. I'm guessing this means that if a Blast template scattered onto a flyer it would still not hit. But while Vibro Cannons do not target anything...the hit is obviously still being 'resolved'

What do you think?

[rle68]

Under the Flyers section it is worded in a way to make this a bit more confusing.
'Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots'

I'm even more confused. I'm guessing this means that if a Blast template scattered onto a flyer it would still not hit. But while Vibro Cannons do not target anything...the hit is obviously still being 'resolved'

What do you think?

its the eldar version of joww..and i know your going to hate me but codex trumps rule book

vibro cannons do not need to pick a target...they shoot , if they hit ... they hit... they draw a line any unit under the line takes d6 hits.. the end of the description is the only one that matters... units with armor value take a single glancing hit

1 glancing hit thats all..

[Nimor]

They can indeed hit them, the "snap shoot" is not a factor here you don’t roll to hit anything the shot is resolved before anything is determined to hit. It simply must meet its BS to make the line. Once established that it can make its line you are only working out wounds or in this case armor pen, add out glance.

[quinn]

We've just been having a big argument over V-cannons and how many glances they get. Some contend that they get a glance per 'hit' rolled, others that it is one glance irregardless of number of 'hits' rolled. Any input on this? I'm of the 'one glance' school, but the rule isn't written that clearly and I can see the other side of the argument.

[eldargal]

It is unclear. My personal feeling is that is one hit. Simply because regardless of how many vibro cannon you have, it only does D6 hits to a unit. One or three, D6 hits, only the S increases. It doesn't help that the plural of cannon, in English, is cannon not cannons (though that is acceptable). I did ask about this in my email to GWs faq department.

[quinn]

It is unclear. My personal feeling is that is one hit. Simply because regardless of how many vibro cannon you have, it only does D6 hits to a unit. One or three, D6 hits, only the S increases. It doesn't help that the plural of cannon, in English, is cannon not cannons (though that is acceptable). I did ask about this in my email to GWs faq department.

I appreciate the timely answer to my question. Duke won't be happy, but I'm citing you as a resident expert in my argument! Here's hoping GW puts the question to rest.

[eldargal]

I'm not exactly thrilled myself, what girl doesn't love vibro cannon?:rolleyes: Still it isn't like they are useless, three of them will still do D6 S6 hits to any and all unit within range which isn't too shoddy. I think shadowweavers may be a safer bet, 3 S6 blast templates at 48". If you can set up a decent killzone a d-cannon battery would be devestating.

[Duke]

It is unclear. My personal feeling is that is one hit. Simply because regardless of how many vibro cannon you have, it only does D6 hits to a unit. One or three, D6 hits, only the S increases. It doesn't help that the plural of cannon, in English, is cannon not cannons (though that is acceptable). I did ask about this in my email to GWs faq department.

Vibro Cannon Rule (Emphasis mine)
"when firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" straight line from one cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4, to hit, they would draw a single line from one of the cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 S6 hits.

A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a Vibro Cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armor penetration."


So, I have a battery of Vibro Cannons, I roll to hit with 3 dice (as per the example.) If I roll a 5,5,5 then I now have 3 vibro cannons that have hit. I then draw a line 36" straight and any vehicle it passes through suffers a glancing hit for each single vibro cannon that hit (It doesn't say you take a glancing hit for the battery hitting. It says you suffer a glancing hit from "A" vibro cannon that hits. They also use "Cannons," when referring to multiple cannons or a battery of cannons, so it is obvious that they are referencing a hit from a single cannon.

roll three dice, for three cannons, get three hits from three cannons, cause three glances from three cannons.

It doesn't make sense that having three cannons makes the battery better against infantry but it doesn't mean crap against vehicles. It is more logical to assume that it is equally better against infantry and armor with more cannons...

Duke

[eldargal]

I'd like to think so, but I'm not convinced:

when firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" straight line from one cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannons rolls a 1, a 6, and a 4, to hit, they would draw a single line from one of the cannon* and any unit it touches takes D6 S6 hits.

A target with an Armor Value that is hit by a Vibro Cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armor penetration
It is still referring to the thing as a battery, not individual support weapons and the fact remains supporting batteries add to the strength of the hit not the number of hits. One assumes vehicles are better shielded from the vibrations than infantry so take less damage. I'd be thrilled to be wrong, and I'm certainly not saying it isn't highly ambiguous, I just don't feel confident one way or the other. My group have decided to roll on it 'til GW FAQ it. I did email them about it.:)


*Cannon and cannons both used in plural form, hence confusion.

[Duke]

true enough that it isn't written as clear as it should. The thing is that there are two enteries here. One paragraph talks about what to do against infantry and another talks about vehicles. They are two separate rules and when it goes over vechiles it causes a single glance for each vibro cannon that hits. Like I said, 3 dice, 3 hits, 3 glances. not 3 dice, 3 hits, one glance...

Till then Myself and several American TO's have said it is 3 glances (Rolling off isn't an option from a TO), but I can't wait to hear the official word.

Duke

[eldargal]

I just sent off another email specifically about the vibro cannon issue to GW FAQs, so hopefully we will get some clarification.:) I really hope your interpretation is correct, but I'm too accustomed to things going against the Eldar rather than for. Vibro cannon would be a brilliant AA weapon if it is 3 hits, a battery of three could take down a flyer each turn.

[JMichael]

I've never questioned that more than one glancing hit regardless of the # of weapons in the battery.

The benefit for having more guns in the battery vs vehicles is more dice to hit. I take 2 (often with a Warlock for added BS), it's like having them twin linked.

[Duke]

Except any time that they mean to say "it's like twin linked," they simply say it is twin linked. Look at War walkers with twin weapons vs Wraithlords with twin weapons.

It is pretty simple actually, when "A cannon," hits it causes a glance. If it said "the weapon battery," or even "the line," it would be one hit. This seriously isn't that hard as long as you stop trying to make the two separate paragraphs one rule, which is the wrong way to go about it. Against targets with an armor value you score a glance for each vibro cannon that hits.

Duke

[Roadkill Zombie]

My very first post on this site was about this very subject about six months ago or so. I swear I almost got lynched by some of the reply's people were giving me. I'm still of the opinion it works like Duke says it does.

I brought the same thing up on Dakka a few days ago and got the same reaction. You'd think the entire 40k community hates Eldar and Vibro Cannons or something.

[eldargal]

Most people object to Eldar having anything vaguely threatening to their Marines.:rolleyes: Sadly I'm still not convinced, as much as I would like it to be so. Vibro cannon operate as a battery, extra cannon do not cause more hits but up the strength, I can't see why it would be different against armour.

[Duke]

Because that is exactly what it says it does.You have to realize that the first paragraph and the second paragraph are two different rules, one for infantry (first paragraph) and one for vehicles (second paragraph), you can't rule the second portion of what you feel the first portion is supposed to do.

"A target with an armor value hit by A vibro cannon (single cannon, not battery) always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armor penetration." (Emphasis mine)

So, to clarify, if I have 3 vibro cannons that hit that is restated as "This vehicle has been hit by three single vibro cannons," Thus it would cause 3 glances.

Here is the point. All of the major TO's in the United states are using my definition because it is RAW, if you come to Feast of Blades, WargamesCon, Nova or Adepticon today this is how it is being played. (Make sure to always check FAQ's before attending an event to make sure ruling haven't changed). Eldargal, you're in the UK so you don't have to worry about us silly American TO's. but right now RAW says each cannon causes a glance if it hits.

why can't elder get some love!? lol

[Demonus]

Did vibro cannons cause 3 glancing hits in the old 5e?

[kjolnir]

Eldar Vibro-Cannon. First off, Artillery just got a lot tougher. Add a warlock with conceal (5++) and even more survivability.
Rolls to hit, one d6/weapon in battery. Add a Warlock to boost BS of one shot from 3 to 4.
Draw a straight line 36" in any direction from any of the weapons.
It also auto-glances vehicles!

Imagine 2 Batteries of 2...can bring down a flyer/turn.
Throw in Guide when you need it...get a good line up and hit multiple vehicles per turn.

Thoughts, ideas?

You'll never be able to hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer with a Vibro Cannon, for two reasons.

Most importantly, it's Artillery, and you can never make a Snap Shot with Artillery. Since you can't make a Snap Shot, you can't shoot at a Swooping/Zooming flyer.

Secondly, you aren't making a BS resolution to-hit roll with the models under the line that are hit, so you can't hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer.

If the flyer is Gliding/Hovering, you can hit it as normal.

There's a thread about that very topic on this forum here: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=22913

The first post has been edited to contain a compilation of all the discussion, so you can get the "executive summary" there. If you'd like detail, it's all there to read!

[Duke]

Did vibro cannons cause 3 glancing hits in the old 5e?

They would have, If anyone used them.

[eldargal]

None of that applies to vibro cannons. Vibro cannons use BS to hit, but they don't target the flyer directly. It isn't an auto-hit weapon.

You'll never be able to hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer with a Vibro Cannon, for two reasons.

Most importantly, it's Artillery, and you can never make a Snap Shot with Artillery. Since you can't make a Snap Shot, you can't shoot at a Swooping/Zooming flyer.

Secondly, you aren't making a BS resolution to-hit roll with the models under the line that are hit, so you can't hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer.

If the flyer is Gliding/Hovering, you can hit it as normal.

There's a thread about that very topic on this forum here: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=22913

The first post has been edited to contain a compilation of all the discussion, so you can get the "executive summary" there. If you'd like detail, it's all there to read!

[SeattleDV8]

Targeting doesn't come into the question, the attack doesn't resolve against the flyer.

[Terrain Foundry]

For anyone who doubts that Vibro Cannons can shoot zooming flyers...

6th edition rule book, page 7, bottom right paragraph, under "Basic versus Advanced," and I quote: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

So until FAQed otherwise, Vibro cannons CAN indeed affect zooming flyers.

You'll get you're jink save though, so you'll be fine.

[Tynskel]

For anyone who doubts that Vibro Cannons can shoot zooming flyers...

6th edition rule book, page 7, bottom right paragraph, under "Basic versus Advanced," and I quote: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

So until FAQed otherwise, Vibro cannons CAN indeed affect zooming flyers.

You'll get you're jink save though, so you'll be fine.

what are you talking about:
Rule One, Unless the Unit has SKYFIRE, you can ONLY take SNAP SHOTS at Flyers and Swooping Monsterous Creatures.
Rule Two, Artillery CANNOT take SNAP SHOTS.

Vibro cannons are Artillery.

End of Discussion.

[eldargal]

Tynskel, you need to follow your own advice and read the rules. The Vibro cannon does not target a unit, it targets a point on the battlefield. All units in a line to that point are hit. It is not an auto-hit weapon as you need to roll BS to hit the designated point.

As a flyer isn't targeted, it doesn't require the shot be snapfired. As it isn't a blast or template, it still affects flyers.

End of discussion.

[Tynskel]

Tynskel, you need to follow your own advice and read the rules. The Vibro cannon does not target a unit, it targets a point on the battlefield. All units in a line to that point are hit. It is not an auto-hit weapon as you need to roll BS to hit the designated point.

As a flyer isn't targeted, it doesn't require the shot be snapfired. As it isn't a blast or template, it still affects flyers.

End of discussion.

No. If it is Rolling BS to hit, which you say it is, THEN it can only SNAP FIRE at Flyers and Swooping Monsterous Creatures. This is QUITE CLEAR in the Rulebook.

Vibro Cannon EXPLICITLY states it is Artillery.
Artillery cannot Snap Fire!!!

Automatic miss vs Flyer/Swooping Monsterous Creature.

[eldargal]

Except codex trumps rulebook, you aren't targetting a flyer, you are targetting an area. Areas don't have a Hard to Hit rule.

Like I said, read the rules.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Oh gods, it's happening again. Could we please not argue?

[Tynskel]

Except codex trumps rulebook, you aren't targetting a flyer, you are targetting an area. Areas don't have a Hard to Hit rule.

Like I said, read the rules.

You are still missing the part where

1) Artillery cannot Snap Fire Flyers
2) Automatic hits cannot Snap Fire Flyers!
3) Vibrocannon cannot automatically hit a Flyer because it is both artillery snap firing with an automatic hit weapon!

You have done nothing to explain how the Codex overrides this.

If the flyer is in Hover (glide) mode, then yes, it can be hit. However, your vibro cannon doesn't arc up into the sky then come back down to the ground.

[eldargal]

I'm not arguing, I'm correcting an erroneous rules interpretation based on Tynskels own proposed methodology.:p

Unfortunately for him he failed his Deny the B*tch roll.

^Joke to lighten mood.

1) Correct
2) It isn't an automatic hit
3) Vibro cannon isn't snap firing or automatically hitting owing to its unqiue mechanism which overides the BRB as the BRB itself states.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

"Deny the B*itch" is now what I am calling that rule, well done.

[eldargal]

AS I said Tynskel, you need to read the rule, so here it is:


A Vibro cannon uses resonant sonic waves to shake its targets apart and fling troops to the ground. When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a 36" straight line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannon rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the vibro cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 S6 hits.

A target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration .
You roll to hit, so it ignores the auto-hit rules, but you do not pick a target so it also ignores Hard to Hit.

Codex > BRB precisely for cases like this. The vibro cannon is unique, as far as I am aware, so I understand the confusion. But when you read the rule, it is quite unambiguous.

The only ambiguity is how many hits it suffers, I think one myself but the use of both cannon and cannons as the singular confuses things.

[kjolnir]

None of that applies to vibro cannons. Vibro cannons use BS to hit, but they don't target the flyer directly. It isn't an auto-hit weapon.

The fact that a Vibro Cannon is Artillery and Artillery can't shoot at Zooming or Swooping flyers doesn't apply?

[kjolnir]

3) Vibro cannon isn't snap firing or automatically hitting owing to its unqiue mechanism which overides the BRB as the BRB itself states.

That's incorrect. Artillery cannot make a Snap Shot. You MUST make a Snap Shot at a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. You don't have a choice. For the purposes of hitting said Flyer, the line created by a Vibro Cannon is a Snap Shot when it touches said Flyer. Snap Shot is a shooting attack modifier forced upon the Attacker by the status of the Defender. The attacking player has zero choice in the matter, unless they have the Skyfire special rule. Vibro Cannons don't have that special rule.

You ARE making a Snap Shot when any shooting attack affects a Zooming or Swooping flyer. Artillery can never make a Snap Shot. Vibro Cannons can never hit Zooming or Swooping Flyers.

[Aramel]

Tynskel may be right, but not for the reasons he stated. The key language for the Hard to hit Rule, which is also bolded is : "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots." For some absurd reason they decided to use the word "resolve," which does not appear anywhere that I have looked in the shooting section. I can only assume that it means "work out the effects of the shot."

If that is the case, then only shots fired as snap shots or with the skyfire rule can be counted. Under this interpretation, the mechanism by which a flyer is hit does not matter, only whether or not it falls into the two categories of skyfire or snap shot. The fact that the vibro-cannon is artilliery is not relevant. It is clear that a vibro-cannon can "hit" a flyer. The problem seems to be that under this reading, that "hit" does nothing.

On the other hand, if you interpret "resolve" as meaning "work out if the flyer is hit by the shooting attack," then clearly the Hard to Hit rule does not apply to the vibro-cannon and the flyer takes glancing hits as normal. Codex trumps rulebook and as Eladrgirl has pointed out, the codex says everything along the line gets hit, no exceptions.

If anyone comes across the term "resolve" elsewhere in the book, the context would be quite helpful in figuring out which of these interpretations is most reasonable.

[SacredChao]

The only issue I see with this is the nature of a "Line" as people are trying to use it. A line is a 1-Dimensional thing, GW has stated it is about 1mm thick. If it's 1mm thick, then it is 1mm tall, wide, etc... a Cylinder. I would think that sure, you can fire it in the normal 45 degree arc up and hit a flyer, however, it wont travel along the ground anymore. And if you fire it along the ground, it can't hit the flyer, since the base doesn't count for shooting.

All in all, GW needs to be clearer about "Lines"

Also, if a line was higher than it's width by the 2 or 3 feet, it is no longer a line : / it's a Plane at that point.

[Aramel]

I'm not too clear on what the vibro-cannon's "line" actually means. It appears to imply that it has an infinite y axis. In any case, rules refer to game terms and in game terms flyers have bases that are hit even if the line is defined as being 1" tall from the board, so it does not matter for this discussion (unless the flyer is ontop of a building I suppose).

[kjolnir]

The fact that the vibro-cannon is artilliery is not relevant.

Of course it's relevant. Artillery cannot make Snap Shots. Ever. If you can't make a Snap Shot and don't have Skyfire, you can't hit a Swooping or Zooming flyer. Ever.


It is clear that a vibro-cannon can "hit" a flyer.

Clear to whom? It's pretty clear to me the Vibro Cannon can't ever hit a Zooming or Swooping flyer.

[Aramel]

Well it's clear in the sense that when you fire vibro-cannon successfully, "Any unit which the line passes through suffers d6 hits." "A target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro-cannon always suffers a single glancing hit." Because those are codex rules, they supersede the rulebook where there is a conflict. Therefore, if the line passes through the flyer's base, it is hit.

If "resolve" means that only hits that were snap shot or had the skyfire rule can damage the flyer then there is no conflict and the vibro-cannon has no effect. If "resolve" means that in order to hit the flyer in the first place you must snap shoot or have the skyfire rule, then there is a conflict because the vibro-cannon has completely different rules regarding how units are hit. These rules would control and flyers would be affected normally.

[kjolnir]

Well it's clear in the sense that when you fire vibro-cannon successfully, "Any unit which the line passes through suffers d6 hits." "A target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro-cannon always suffers a single glancing hit." Because those are codex rules, they supersede the rulebook where there is a conflict. Therefore, if the line passes through the flyer's base, it is hit.

Except that the Vibro Cannon is Artillery, and if the Flyer is Zooming or Swooping it's not hit. Ever.


If "resolve" means that only hits that were snap shot or had the skyfire rule can damage the flyer then there is no conflict and the vibro-cannon has no effect. If "resolve" means that in order to hit the flyer in the first place you must snap shoot or have the skyfire rule, then there is a conflict because the vibro-cannon has completely different rules regarding how units are hit. These rules would control and flyers would be affected normally.

You're completely ignoring the Artillery Snap Shot rule. The Vibro Cannon uses a BS resolution to see if it hits. So far, so good, it can make a Snap Shot...but wait, there's more! It's Artillery, so it can't make a Snap Shot. Ever.

If you can't make a Snap Shot, no shooting attack you make can ever hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. That's all there is to it.

[Aramel]

I'm ignoring the artilliery rule because I completely agree that the vibro-cannon cannot snap fire. In fact, it can't for two reasons: it is artilliery and you can only snap fire vs. flyers if you choose to target them, which this weapon cannot. It explicitly says that "the firer need not pick a target."

Normally the sequence of events is as follows: A marine tactical squad wants to shoot a flyer. The marine player declares this and goes on to roll his hits for every weapon fired. Because he is shooting a flyer, he is forced to discount all hits that are not 6s, and moves on to saves/damage if there is any.

Meanwhile firing a vibro-cannon goes like this: Eldar player says she is firing her vibro-cannon battery. Following the codex rules she need not say what she intends to hit with it. She traces a 36" line through a squad of infantry, a tank and a flyer. She rolls to hit and scores 1 hit. The infantry takes d6 Str 5 hits, the tank takes a glance, and the flyer?

Is the whole shot lost because a flyer is one of the targets? No. But then why would you resolve the shooting attacks against all the other targets and ignore the flyer? Again, the only argument you can make is to interpret the word "resolve" to mean that only snapfire or skyfire "hits" can have an effect on the flyer.

[Winston P Smallhouse]

Everyone needs to remember that we are talking about a model that was underused in 5 ed and now that 6th is all about shooting, everyone seems hell bent on one killing off one of the Eldar's few options again't flyers. The rules for the Vibrocannon are clear and everybody needs to remember that this is a very old codex for a race that GW dosen't give a damn about, so please cut the few Eldar players out there a little slack, they've had a tough time and they won't be getting a new codex any time soon. I'm sure all you marine players will soon have a new book that lists a flakk missile option for all your missile launchers. A Vibrocannon causes 1-3 glancing hits from a 180 point battery (and that's allowing for the best interpretation of the rules.) That's hardly overpowered.

[kjolnir]

I'm ignoring the artilliery rule because I completely agree that the vibro-cannon cannot snap fire.

Then it can't ever hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer.

And that's all that you need to worry about.

[Terrain Foundry]

Lets make this real simple for kjolnir

P7 of the BRB explicitly states: Advanced rule overrides basic rule.

The rules for "hard to hit" (which is what triggers the snap fire rule) are basic rules. Applying to virtually all shooting attacks, from most weapons, across all the codexes. Its a blanket rule, and therefore a basic rule.

The rules for VC apply to one weapon, in one codex, which performs firing, targeting, and hitting in a unique way, totally different to all other shooting attacks. This weapon has an Advanced rule.

Advanced overrides basic, as stated in the rulebook.

If that wasn't enough.....

Further down the same section on Page 7 of the BRB "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

Well thats EXACTLY what we have here. HtH directly conflicts with the way VC works and vice versa. So in this case the codex rules take precedence. The rule book is VERY explicit in stating this, it really cannot be any more clear - Codex Vibro Cannon rules take precedence over rulebook HtH.

The VC rolls to hit using its bs BEFORE choosing a target, and hits the vehicle in a different way to normal shooting. So, using the VC rules makes HtH totally irrelevant, which in turn means snap fire is also irrelevant. No HtH = no snap fire = VC glancing your flyer.

Like it or not, the BRB is very clear on this matter. In future they might well FAQ against it (i have no doubt they probably will go against it), but right now, you CAN shoot zooming flyers with vibro cannons.

A unit that sucked quite hard has now become quite cool and useful. Why would you want to p*ss on that???

[kjolnir]

:rolleyes:
Lets make this real simple for kjolnir

P7 of the BRB explicitly states: Advanced rule overrides basic rule.

The rules for "hard to hit" (which is what triggers the snap fire rule) are basic rules. Applying to virtually all shooting attacks, from most weapons, across all the codexes. Its a blanket rule, and therefore a basic rule.

The rules for VC apply to one weapon, in one codex, which performs firing, targeting, and hitting in a unique way, totally different to all other shooting attacks. This weapon has an Advanced rule.

Advanced overrides basic, as stated in the rulebook.

If that wasn't enough.....

Further down the same section on Page 7 of the BRB "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

Well thats EXACTLY what we have here. HtH directly conflicts with the way VC works and vice versa. So in this case the codex rules take precedence. The rule book is VERY explicit in stating this, it really cannot be any more clear - Codex Vibro Cannon rules take precedence over rulebook HtH.

The VC rolls to hit using its bs BEFORE choosing a target, and hits the vehicle in a different way to normal shooting. So, using the VC rules makes HtH totally irrelevant, which in turn means snap fire is also irrelevant. No HtH = no snap fire = VC glancing your flyer.

Like it or not, the BRB is very clear on this matter. In future they might well FAQ against it (i have no doubt they probably will go against it), but right now, you CAN shoot zooming flyers with vibro cannons.

A unit that sucked quite hard has now become quite cool and useful. Why would you want to p*ss on that???

:rolleyes:

And Zooming and Swooping Flyers can only be hit with Snap Shots. It's the exact same situation with the Necron Death Ray on their Doom Scythes.

If you can't make a Snap Shot, you can't hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. Ever.

Artillery can't make Snap Shots. Ever.

Artillery can't hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. Ever.

You don't need to "make anything simple for me" because it's already simple and I already understand it just fine.

[Nachodragon]

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

And Zooming and Swooping Flyers can only be hit with Snap Shots. It's the exact same situation with the Necron Death Ray on their Doom Scythes.

If you can't make a Snap Shot, you can't hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. Ever. [This is statement that is not true, just based on skyfire. It would be better to say, exacting what the rules state... 'shots resolved can only be resolved as snap-fire']

Artillery can't make Snap Shots. Ever. [True, irrelevant to issue]

Artillery can't hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. Ever. [Wrong, based off bad logic]

You don't need to "make anything simple for me" because it's already simple and I already understand it just fine.

So, on page 81, Hard to Hit states: "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer..."

Vibro-cannon does not shoot at anything, neither does the Death Ray. Only reason I said Death Ray could shoot with Skyfire is because I skimmed the rules quickly, not fully understanding, and it was an easy out.

Neither of these weapons are Blasts or templates. Neither of these weapons shoot at anything. Shots are not resolved at the flyer. They just take hits.

It doesn't matter if Artillery can't snap-fire, cause it is not snap-firing. It is just shooting it's gun and things get in the way.

[kjolnir]

So, on page 81, Hard to Hit states: "Shots resolved at a zooming flyer..."

Vibro-cannon does not shoot at anything, neither does the Death Ray. Only reason I said Death Ray could shoot with Skyfire is because I skimmed the rules quickly, not fully understanding, and it was an easy out.

Neither of these weapons are Blasts or templates. Neither of these weapons shoot at anything. Shots are not resolved at the flyer. They just take hits.

It doesn't matter if Artillery can't snap-fire, cause it is not snap-firing. It is just shooting it's gun and things get in the way.

Oh so the death ray and vibro-whatever aren't actually shooting attacks? Is that really your argument? Despite the fact that they are guns on a vehicle that can only be used during the shooting phase, they're not REALLY shooting?

Come on.

Second, the choice of whether or not a Snap Shot is made is not the choice of the shooter. Ever. If your shooting attack affects a Flyer, it's a Snap Shot for the purposes of determining if that Flyer is hit. If the same shooting attack also affects non-Flyers, for them, it's not a Snap Shot.

This really isn't that difficult.

[Terrain Foundry]

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

And Zooming and Swooping Flyers can only be hit with Snap Shots. It's the exact same situation with the Necron Death Ray on their Doom Scythes.

If you can't make a Snap Shot, you can't hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. Ever.

Artillery can't make Snap Shots. Ever.

Artillery can't hit a Zooming or Swooping Flyer. Ever.

You don't need to "make anything simple for me" because it's already simple and I already understand it just fine.

erm... ok... did you actually read my post? Rulebook states Codex Vibro Cannon rules take precedence over Hard to Hit rules. And no Hard to Hit = no snap fire.

[Nachodragon]

Oh so the death ray and vibro-whatever aren't actually shooting attacks? Is that really your argument? Despite the fact that they are guns on a vehicle that can only be used during the shooting phase, they're not REALLY shooting?

Come on.

Second, the choice of whether or not a Snap Shot is made is not the choice of the shooter. Ever. If your shooting attack affects a Flyer, it's a Snap Shot for the purposes of determining if that Flyer is hit. If the same shooting attack also affects non-Flyers, for them, it's not a Snap Shot.

This really isn't that difficult.

I did not say they were not shooting attacks. Those shots are not resolved at the flyer, hence they do not fall under hard to hit. The shot is resolved in a way that does not interact with the flyer, their effect, though, does interact with the flyer and does hit them. Maybe I emphasized the wrong word...
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer..."
or
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer..."
or
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer..."
or actually... just the whole thing...
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyerr..."

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Oh so the death ray and vibro-whatever aren't actually shooting attacks? Is that really your argument? Despite the fact that they are guns on a vehicle that can only be used during the shooting phase, they're not REALLY shooting?
That's not what he's saying - "When firing a Vibro Cannon Battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target)." Compare to "Shots resolved at Zooming Fliers can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

His point is that the Vibro Cannon to-hit roll is "resolved" before the player can pick the flier as a target. Then, the user of the Vibro "draw[s] a 36" line from one Vibro Cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers d6 hits."

The point is that since Vibro Cannon never rolled to hit against the Flier, it rolls to hit "nothing" after which the player chooses which units are hit.

It's a weird issue; personally, I'd say it works, but I guess you could say that zooming Fliers may only ever be hit by units which are capable of snap firing? That feels like a houserule, though, since it introduces the condition that the unit must be capable of shooting snapfire, even if rolling to hit against the flier wasn't necessary.

[Tynskel]

Codex rules override main rulebook... When they specifically alter how the main rules work.

Yes, the Vibrocannon has Different shooting rules.
However, the vibrocannon is NOT overriding 1) the artillery description of the weapon, nor is it overriding the 2) Snap Fire vs flying objects.

Next the Deathray is in the same boat, except it CAN get 'Skyfire'. At which point, the gun fails to hit anything but Skimmers, Flyers, and Swooping Monsterous Creatures. Note that the gun is still applied the same way: It CANNOT Snap Fire.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yes, the Vibrocannon has Different shooting rules.
However, the vibrocannon is NOT overriding 1) the artillery description of the weapon, nor is it overriding the 2) Snap Fire vs flying objects.Eh, it's ambiguous since Snap Fire occurs when you roll to-hit against a Zooming Flier. Vibro Cannons never roll to-hit "against" anything, and so wouldn't be required to snap-fire. Hard to Hit mentions that when rolling to specifically hit a flier unit, you may only use Snap Fire. It seems that the Vibro overrides the "roll to hit a specific unit", which causes it to skip over the Snap Fire requirement.

But yeah, this is definitely FAQ material.

[Tynskel]

no. read about how to hit: Every Weapon that does not use BS to hit CANNOT Snap Fire.

[Nachodragon]

First off, Vibro cannon does use BS.
Secondly, neither weapon actually shoots at the flyer, therefore, they don't actually snap-fire.

[Tynskel]

You MUST have 'skyfire' to not be snap firing at flyers.

IF it uses BS to fire, it MUST be able to Snap Fire--- Artillery CANNOT Snap Fire.

Either way, it is using unique shooting rules, however, the rules in no way specifically override the restrictions to shoot at UFOs.

That's how codex rules override the rulebook, because they specifically state so.


Example:
Mawloc May deep strike onto enemy model. It is SPECIFICALLY referencing 'Deep Strike'. Second it states Instead of Mishap do blah blah blah. Once again SPECIFICALLY referencing the 'Mishap Table'. This is where codex overrides the Rulebook.

The Deathray and Vibrocannon SPECIFICALLY override NORMAL shooting rules. However, shooting at UFOs has SPECIFIC rules. Both weapons CANNOT override those specifics, unless there is a SPECIFIC rule stating how. The Doom Scythe can gain 'Skyfire', at which point it changes how to apply the rules, HOWEVER, it still cannot Snap Fire, thus all that happens is the TYPE of targets that CAN be hit.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

You MUST have 'skyfire' to not be snap firing at flyers.But you never fire "at" the flier.

[Nachodragon]

Please apply correct rules to the correct situations.

Now, I shall inception you... read the first post here... and then read the next first post....

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=23162

[Tynskel]

I have pointed out all the relevant rules.

You MUST be able to Snap Fire to hit a flyer. Vibrocannon CANNOT Snap Fire. Neither Can the Deathray.
Next, if you are trying to avoid snap fire, you must either 1) have a specific rule that states you override snap fire (both Vibrocannon and Deathray DO NOT HAVE); or 2) Acquire Skyfire, at which point you are no longer Snap Firing at UFOs, HOWEVER you are STILL Snap Firing at ground units. The Deathray can gain Skyfire, but then CANNOT snap fire ground targets!

[Nachodragon]

Basically, Hard to Hit applies the snap-fire rule but only when shots are being fired AT the zooming flyer. It is not the other way around. Snap-fire does not apply the hard to hit rule to flyers.

Hard to hit states that shots resolved AT the zooming flyer are resolved as snap shots.

Neither weapon actually shoots at the flyer. VC just basically fires its gun in a direction and s**t explodes. The DS fires it ray in a line and anything underneath the line explodes. Neither one targets anything. Neither one cares about snap fire! They are not shooting AT anything.

[bfmusashi]

It's Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. Tyn's case, if I'm reading this correctly, is the shot can not be resolved as a Snap Shot. As it can not be resolved there is no finality, i.e. damage. The inability to resolve the damage is the issue.

[Nachodragon]

It's Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. Tyn's case, if I'm reading this correctly, is the shot can not be resolved as a Snap Shot. As it can not be resolved there is no finality, i.e. damage. The inability to resolve the damage is the issue.

The shot has been resolved already. The wound/armor pen is the next step.

[SeattleDV8]

Incorrect, It can not resolve against a flyer.
It cannot snapshot.
It can not harm a flyer.

(I do not like Green eggs and ham)

[bfmusashi]

'course, Daboarder in the axe thread quoted a letter from GW stating artillery can fire overwatch, which would mean an alternate interpretation of the first sentence under Shooting With Artillery. Artillery can't fire Snap Shots if it moved that turn, which seems redundant since it's not allowed to shoot at all if it moved.

[Tynskel]

The shot has been resolved already. The wound/armor pen is the next step.

No, the shot may have been 'resolved', ie the line, however, damage can ONLY be rolled against VALID targets. You simply MISSED the UFO (obviously, vibrocannons do not 'arc').

If the Vibrocannon has Skyfire, it would be in the same situation as the Deathray, the ground targets are NOT VALID targets, and simply MISSED.

[Nachodragon]

Incorrect, It can not resolve against a flyer.
It cannot snapshot.
It can not harm a flyer.

(I do not like Green eggs and ham)

The shot has already been resolved. There is free floating damage that affects the flyer. I am not sure how else to explain it right now, the unit is not firing at the flyer, therefore, hard to hit does not apply the snap-fire restriction to it.

[Nachodragon]

No, the shot may have been 'resolved', ie the line, however, damage can ONLY be rolled against VALID targets. You simply MISSED the UFO (obviously, vibrocannons do not 'arc').

If the Vibrocannon has Skyfire, it would be in the same situation as the Deathray, the ground targets are NOT VALID targets, and simply MISSED.

First off, do you know what a Vibro Cannon is? Cause when I read it I think it is shooting out a sonic blast, hence Vibro, Vibration.... and those typically get larger and bigger the further away from the source. So.. yes, it would 'arc' as you say.

[bfmusashi]

Nacho, the entire point of the Vibro cannon is it focuses the vibration that should be over a large area into a very narrow beam. It's like comparing a flashlight and a laser.

[Nachodragon]

Nacho, the entire point of the Vibro cannon is it focuses the vibration that should be over a large area into a very narrow beam. It's like comparing a flashlight and a laser.

You can compare them, quite easily. The laser will typically be brighter and more concentrated light, but you can still compare them.

Also, it does not say it narrows the vibration at all.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

"Can the Space Elf Vibrator shoot down planes?" is a question second only to "What is the Meaning of Life?"

[Tynskel]

you don't understand propagation of noise and attenuation frequencies. You must reflect off boundaries to send a sound wave at multiple vectors and maintain the energy within the medium. The Vibrocannon isn't a nova effect.

No, the UFO rules are quite clear: you MUST be able to Snap Fire a weapon to hit the UFOs. If you cannot, you miss. Artillery rules CLEARLY state they cannot snap fire. The Vibrocannon rules override NORMAL shooting, but UFO targeting is NOT normal shooting.

Read my example about the Mawloc: it shows specifically how to override Deep Strike, and more specifically override an even more specific rule WITHIN Deep Strike.

[Nachodragon]

you don't understand propagation of noise and attenuation frequencies. You must reflect off boundaries to send a sound wave at multiple vectors and maintain the energy within the medium. The Vibrocannon isn't a nova effect.

[Ok, in the year 40,000 we don't know the technology plus this is even alien technology, so I don't give a flying F**K what our physics say are possible. Cause I can point to so many other things that make no sense... We haven't even confirmed if we found the Higgs-Boson yet or if it is a fake boson....]

No, the UFO rules are quite clear: you MUST be able to Snap Fire a weapon to hit the UFOs. [It does not state this at all. It only states when shooting at the unit. It says nothing about things that just hit] If you cannot, you miss. Artillery rules CLEARLY state they cannot snap fire. The Vibrocannon rules override NORMAL shooting, but UFO targeting is NOT normal shooting.

Read my example about the Mawloc: it shows specifically how to override Deep Strike, and more specifically override an even more specific rule WITHIN Deep Strike.

Neither weapon fires at anything. One rolls to see if the weapon goes off, VC. The other just fires a super awesome beam (I like to think of the Stargate SG-1 beam weapons).

[Tynskel]

nope. Just making up responses doesn't work. You need to point to rules that specifically override the rulebook rules.

Bwhahahaha: Sorry man What they found at CERN is REAL. The data is a 5 sigma event. 1/3,000,000 chance of being random. Even if it ISN'T Higgs, it is still SOMETHING.

As for rules you are completely BSing:
1). p13
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or THOSE THAT HAVE CERTAIN SPECIAL RULES, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. It's important to not that ANY shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

2) page 45 of Codex Eldar
...'the firer does not need to pick a target'... 'Draw a line'... 'any unit under the line passes through suffers d6 hits'.
This is a Special Rule: like a BLAST or a TEMPLATE, or ORDNANCE, or 'Portal of Exile', ALL WEAPONS THAT AUTO HIT! Cannot 'Snap Shot'.

3) p. 81 rulebook
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

4) p. 42 (meaning of life) Skyfire
...'fires using normal Ballistic Skill... UFOs... Snap Shot...other targets'...



The Vibrocannon rolls its Ballistic Skill in order to FIRE not HIT. The hits are determined by a LINE and a roll of a D6 for number of hits. This conflicts with Snap Fire rules: using Special Rules to hit. The Rulebook is EXPLICIT You need a Special Rule to overcome Snap Fire. END OF DISCUSSION

oh you want to continue.

You can only SNAP FIRE UFOs. Whoops Vibrocannon CANNOT SNAP FIRE. End of Discussion.
If you HAD Skyfire: you couldn't hit ground targets because of SNAP FIRE.

[bfmusashi]

You can compare them, quite easily. The laser will typically be brighter and more concentrated light, but you can still compare them.

Also, it does not say it narrows the vibration at all.

Pretty sure the description in the 2nd ed wargear book said that, or the Titan Legions books did. They used to mount one on a titan. And, it's like comparing the two. A laser is to a flashlight as a vibro cannon is to a speaker.
The whole thing is rather moot unless they misused the dash in the shooting artillery entry. That's not out of the question since the scatter dice is still a single object.

[Tynskel]

lasers and flashlights are only similar in that they both emit light.

A laser is a mono frequency mono directional beam (spatial and temporal coherence). A flashlight is neither of those things. mirrors aim the light but it is neither spatially or temporally coherent.

[Nachodragon]

nope. Just making up responses doesn't work. You need to point to rules that specifically override the rulebook rules.

Bwhahahaha: Sorry man What they found at CERN is REAL. The data is a 5 sigma event. 1/3,000,000 chance of being random. Even if it ISN'T Higgs, it is still SOMETHING. [Didn't say it wasn't something, or real, just that they arenot sure if Higgs or one of 3 other Higgs like particles. I meant that we don't know S**T about the rest of the universe yet, let alone, our own little measly planet.]

As for rules you are completely BSing:
1). p13
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or THOSE THAT HAVE CERTAIN SPECIAL RULES, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. It's important to not that ANY shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

2) page 45 of Codex Eldar
...'the firer does not need to pick a target'... 'Draw a line'... 'any unit under the line passes through suffers d6 hits'.
This is a Special Rule: like a BLAST or a TEMPLATE, or ORDNANCE, or 'Portal of Exile', ALL WEAPONS THAT AUTO HIT! Cannot 'Snap Shot'.

3) p. 81 rulebook
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

4) p. 42 (meaning of life) Skyfire
...'fires using normal Ballistic Skill... UFOs... Snap Shot...other targets'...



The Vibrocannon rolls its Ballistic Skill in order to FIRE not HIT. The hits are determined by a LINE and a roll of a D6 for number of hits. This conflicts with Snap Fire rules: using Special Rules to hit. The Rulebook is EXPLICIT You need a Special Rule to overcome Snap Fire. END OF DISCUSSION

oh you want to continue.

You can only SNAP FIRE UFOs. Whoops Vibrocannon CANNOT SNAP FIRE. End of Discussion.
If you HAD Skyfire: you couldn't hit ground targets because of SNAP FIRE.

All I really need to look at for this is I am trying to do. Let's apply rules for that. I want to try and kill a flyer. I have a Vibro Cannon. I roll my Dice and hit. Ok, well the VC says I don't actually have a target, so, I am not really shooting at it.. just kind of in the general area. So, the flyer is not being shot at, don't have to worry about snap-firing. Draw a 36 inch line. OK, do that.. hey look I drew a line threw the flyer. So, the weapon does D6 hits to the flyer. OK, well, the hard to hit doesn't say ANYTHING about wounding or armor penetration, so I would roll that now.

You can fire at Flyers without snap-fire, for one, if you had Skyfire. So, please stop using the wrong words like 'only'. The VC is not shooting at the flyer, therefore, it does not need to snap-fire.

[Aramel]

The Vibrocannon rolls its Ballistic Skill in order to FIRE not HIT. The hits are determined by a LINE and a roll of a D6 for number of hits. This conflicts with Snap Fire rules: using Special Rules to hit. The Rulebook is EXPLICIT You need a Special Rule to overcome Snap Fire.

Using a line to affect the flyer is the special rule that overcomes the snap fire requirement

[Tynskel]

No, the rules for Snap Fire are quite clear: you must be explicit.

The rules go through all exceptions INCLUDING naming a weapon from a Codex!
You MUST not use funky rules to hit while in Snap Fire, unless the funky rule states that snap fire is allowed.


I never said the Vibrocannon couldn't shoot at flyers IF it had Skyfire. What I said was that IF it has Snap Fire now it CANNOT hit Ground Targets.

Sooooo, if you could give the Vibrocannon Skyfire--- go ahead, shoot the zooming flyer, swooping monsterous creature, or skimmer, you miss ground targets.

Now IF the Vibrocannon had Skyfire AND Interceptor, it could shoot ANYTHING. However, The vibrocannon has neither and thus can only hit ground targets, skimmers, and gliding monsterous creatures.

[Nachodragon]

You are trying to tell us that a rulebook written WAY before the current main rulebook has to say it specifically overrides a rule that does not address how this weapon actually operates?

[Tynskel]

You are trying to tell us that a rulebook written WAY before the current main rulebook has to say it specifically overrides a rule that does not address how this weapon actually operates?

Yes. Because the FAQ could have stated otherwise. They changed MANY rules in the FAQs. They could have stated, Vibrocannons can Snap Fire. They didn't and the rulebook is QUITE CLEAR that non-normal shooting weapons CANNOT Snap Fire.


They even went so far to edit SPECIFIC weapons (cf Gorechild) in the FAQs.

[Nachodragon]

Yes. Because the FAQ could have stated otherwise. They changed MANY rules in the FAQs. They could have stated, Vibrocannons can Snap Fire. They didn't and the rulebook is QUITE CLEAR that non-normal shooting weapons CANNOT Snap Fire.

I am with you with Snap-shots. I know how they work. I have read the rule many times. It is irrelevant.

Did you ever think they didn't FAQ it because it does not need a FAQ (not actually saying this, cause it does, just saying GW is frakking stupid with rules). The VC rules are quite clear about what it does. You roll to hit to see if the gunner can pull the trigger. You draw a line and anything the lines passes through suffers D6.

The rule that takes precedent over snap-fire, which you keep forgetting, is Hard to Hit. No shots are being resolved at the flyer. Nothing is needing to make a snap-shot. Same thing with the Death Ray.

Snap-fire does not cover all situations. It only tells you what happens when something snap-fires. Hard to hit tells you when to snap-fire, as does Overwatch. Both of these rules tell you that shooting is resolved with snap-shots.

[Tynskel]

bwwhahaha. Snap Fire irrelevant? Let me remind you: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=217874&postcount=92

Did you see that part where it says SPECIAL RULES. oh yeah, it does say that, doesn't it? Yeah: Cannot Snap Fire. Therefore CANNOT hit a Snap Fire Target.

Deathray CANNOT target a Flyer, unless it has Skyfire.
Vibrocannon CANNOT target a Flyer unless it has Skyfire.

It states CANNOT BE FIRED AS SNAP SHOTS. key word here, I'll bold it for you: *CANNOT*


Look at the Portal of Exile Example: Cannot Be Fired as Snap Shots. Sooooo, if a Swooping Monsterous Creature is within the range of the Portal of Exile, the portal of exile fires and hits GROUND TARGETS, the Swooping Monsterous Creature is IGNORED because the Portal of Exile CANNOT BE FIRED AS SNAP SHOTS.

[Nachodragon]

bwwhahaha. Snap Fire irrelevant? Let me remind you: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=217874&postcount=92

Did you see that part where it says SPECIAL RULES. oh yeah, it does say that, doesn't it? Yeah: Cannot Snap Fire. Therefore CANNOT hit a Snap Fire Target.

Deathray CANNOT target a Flyer, unless it has Skyfire.
Vibrocannon CANNOT target a Flyer unless it has Skyfire.

It states CANNOT BE FIRED AS SNAP SHOTS. key word here, I'll bold it for you: *CANNOT*


Look at the Portal of Exile Example: Cannot Be Fired as Snap Shots. Sooooo, if a Swooping Monsterous Creature is within the range of the Portal of Exile, the portal of exile fires and hits GROUND TARGETS, the Swooping Monsterous Creature is IGNORED because the Portal of Exile CANNOT BE FIRED AS SNAP SHOTS.

Snap-fire does not preclude all special rules. It says certain special rules. Which ones? Oh, it says, Blast. Also those that don't use BS.. great, I understand that. Still irrelevant.

Hard to hit states You resolve shots fired at the flyer like snap-fire. Great. I am not firing at the flyer, therefore, no snap-fire.

[dreadnaughtguy]

Snap-fire does not preclude all special rules. It says certain special rules. Which ones? Oh, it says, Blast. Also those that don't use BS.. great, I understand that. Still irrelevant.

Hard to hit states You resolve shots fired at the flyer like snap-fire. Great. I am not firing at the flyer, therefore, no snap-fire.

You just gave the answer in your last statment. You resolve shots fired at the flyer like snap-fire. Your vibro cannon must be resolved using the snap-fire rules. Snap-fire says you can not hit the flyer with this type of weapon, nor its type of shooting attack. ergo you can not resolve the damage against the flyer and you can not hit the flyer with the vibro cannon.

Yeah lots of armies are screwed against flyers right now, they just invented the unit type and only a select few codex have any way of dealing with it, or even have access to them.

Now they could faq this the other way, as GW is known to do...

[Nachodragon]

You just gave the answer in your last statment. You resolve shots fired at the flyer like snap-fire. Your vibro cannon must be resolved using the snap-fire rules. Snap-fire says you can not hit the flyer with this type of weapon, nor its type of shooting attack. ergo you can not resolve the damage against the flyer and you can not hit the flyer with the vibro cannon.

Yeah lots of armies are screwed against flyers right now, they just invented the unit type and only a select few codex have any way of dealing with it, or even have access to them.

The shot has already been resolved. Anything the line is drawn through takes D6 hits. Snap-fire does not address wounding or armor penetration. The shot is when a weapon shoots AT something. After the shot is just the effect. Snap-fire does not say I can only resolve wounding or armor pen by rolling a 6 or anything else. It only talks about shooting.

[SeattleDV8]

No it hasn't been resolved.
Come on Nacho you have better reading skills than this.
BRB pg. 81
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots,

Vibro cannons do not have Snap Shot.
They cannot be resolved against a Flyer.

Codex vs. BRB doesn't work as it never over-rules Snap Shot.

This one is very simple.

[Nachodragon]

I still contend you are not shooting at the flyer and snap-fire does not come into effect.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Codex vs. BRB doesn't work as it never over-rules Snap Shot.

This one is very simple.But it overrules rolling to-hit "against" the unit, and everything related to that, such as checking range, for instance. It's like how the Vibrocannon would be unaffected by nightfighting in 5th ed. The Snap Fire is part of rolling to-hit against a unit, and Vibro Cannons have their own unique way of handling to-hit rolls.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes ,they do, which still doesn't get resolved against flyers
It doesn't use Snap Shot ; it can't be resolved

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yes ,they do, which still doesn't get resolved against flyers
It doesn't use Snap Shot ; it can't be resolvedHard to Hit specifies that shots resolved against zooming fliers may only be resolved as snap shots. Why does this affect a weapon that never resolves its shots against the enemy unit?

[SeattleDV8]

Because it can't resolve it's hits as it is not a Snap Shot.

The Vibro cannon may have automatic 'hits' but against a flyer it never resolves.

[Tynskel]

Hard to Hit specifies that shots resolved against zooming fliers may only be resolved as snap shots. Why does this affect a weapon that never resolves its shots against the enemy unit?

Because the snap shot rule specifically calls out special rules. Read page 13. If it has a special way of firing, you cannot use it. Codex only trumps rulebook, if it specifically deals with the rule.

Yes, vibrio cannons fire in a unique way, overriding standard shooting, however, snap shots are NOT standard shooting. So you need a rule that overrides snap shot. The vibrio cannon does not have that, nor was it FAQed to do so.

The 'old codex' argument doesn't work here, because GW FAQed everything if they wanted stuff to work. For example Hydras gained Skyfire, but NOT interceptor. Gorechild gained 'Axe'.
Vibrocannon got no FAQ, AND the rules for Snap Fire specifically override special firing rules.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Because it can't resolve it's hits as it is not a Snap Shot.I say I want to fire the Vibro. I do not declare a target. I roll using the crew's BS. I pass. To-hit roll has been resolved. I then choose which units are hit.

The shot was never resolved against the Flyer. The Snap-shot requirement is limited to resolving the To-hit roll, but that's already been resolved. Not sure how it affects the to-hit roll I already resolved well before the flyer became a target. Is this a time travel thing?


Because the snap shot rule specifically calls out special rules.Still not sure why this affects the to-hit roll which has already been resolved without involving the zooming flyer in any way, shape or form.

[SeattleDV8]

Because the rules tells us that unless the shot is a Snap Shot or Skyfire ir does not resolve against flyers.

Pretty simple isn't it.

[Nachodragon]

The shot does not shoot at the flyer. It produces a line that auto-hits anything it is drawn through. Those units take D6 hits. Snap-fire does not deal with wounding or armor pen. Snap-fire only deals with shooting AT the flyer. Flyers have other rules that say Blasts and templates cannot hit the flyer in zoom mode. This is neither of those either.

Snap-fire is irrelevant for this particular instance. You are not firing AT anything.

[WickedGood]

I think the term "Shots" is the key term to look at here. I agree that shots taken at the flyer must have snap fire. Vibro cannons do not resolve their SHOTS against the flyer. They roll to hit. If the succesfuly hit they draw a line in any direction they want. All units under that line are automatically HIT. I think the same interpretation goes for all of the line drawing atacks: Blood Lance, Death Ray, Vibro Cannons. The shot itself does not target a specific model it is a directional attack just all units under that attack are hit.

In fact in the hard to hit rules it specificaly calls out what cannot "HIT" a flyer as Template, Blast and Large Blast Weapons. Until they FAQ it that a line directional attack is a "Template, Blast or Large Blast" weapon I see no rule that states a line weapon cannot HIT a flyer.

[eldargal]

Ok, let's actually look at the Hard to Hit rule, because there is a lot of misrepresentation going on here:

First off, it does NOT say:

unless the shot is a Snap Shot or Skyfire ir does not resolve against flyers.

It says:

Shots resolved at a Zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots...Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode.

Now a vibro cannon is not resolving at the flyer, it is resolving at a nominated point. It is not a template, blast or large blast weapon. It is unique and its mechanism overrides the BRB in this instance. It is cases like this why the codex > BRB rule exists.

Is the vibro cannon targeting the flyer? No.
Is the vibro cannon auto-hit? No.
Is it a template weapon? No.
Is it a blast weapon? No.
Is it a large blast weapon? No.
Is it a snap shot? No.
Does the Hard to Hit rule have any impact on the vibro cannon? No.
Do people need to actually READ the rules? Yes.

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry, but that doesn't matter, it does not have Skyfire or Snap shot.
As so it does not resolve.
Thats it, vibro cannons do not resolve vs. flyers
I can read quite well.

[eldargal]

Keep your houserules out of BRB discussions please.

[WickedGood]

Because the rules tells us that unless the shot is a Snap Shot or Skyfire ir does not resolve against flyers.

Pretty simple isn't it.

The rule actually states:
"Under certian circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots..... Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordance, or those that have certian special rules, such as blast, cannot be FIRED as Snap Shots..... any shooting attack that does not have a Balistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolyth's Portal of Exile - Cannot be fired as a Snap Shot" pg 13

The Hard to Hit rule states:
"SHOTS resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

No where does it say that HITS cannot be resolved against a zooming flyer which is what a Vibro Cannon and the other line based weapons deliver. They do not deliver SHOTS they deliver HITS.

Now the rules specifically address certian weapons that deliver HITS but not shots. Templates, Blast and Large Blast. These weapons deliver hits to everything under the template and if a flyer is under the template the HIT cannot be resolved. No where does it classify a line weapon as a Template, Blast or Large Blast and until this is FAQ'd RAW says as long as you do not have to target the weapon at the flyer you are trying to hit (and you do not have snap fire) you can take the shot target something else and get the HITS on the flyers under the line.

[eldargal]

Correct.

It isn't a snap fire because the shot isn't resolved at the flyer, the shot is resolved ata designated point of space. A successful shot means the vehicle suffers an automatic glancing hit, not an automatic hit because BS was used.

It is not a template, blast or large blast weapon so that doesn't apply either.

[SeattleDV8]

Indeed, where in the Virbo cannon rules or FAQs does it state it has either Snap Shot or Skyfire?
Oh dear , it doesn't, I guess that shows who is making stuff up.

Virbocannons are artillery and as such can't Snap Shot.
They also do not have the Skyfire rule.
Hits and targeted don't matter.
It does not resolve.

Sorry but you don't have a leg to stand on as far as RAW.

It doesn't resolve vs. flyers.

[eldargal]

It isn't targetting a flyer, so it doesn't need snap fire.

It isn't resolving against a flyer, it is resolving at a point in space. Anything between that point in space and the vibro cannon are hit. Not automatically, because a BS roll is required.

That is RAW, and RAW shows you are completely and utterly wrong.

Again, you need to READ the rule:

Shots resolved AT a Zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots.
The vibro cannon shot is not resolved AT a zooming flyer, therefore Hard to Fire cannot be invoked.

It really is this simple:

The shot is not resolved at the flyer.
Hard to Hit specifies shots resolved at the flyer.
Hard to Hit cannot be invoked.
The shot is thus not a snap fire.

[SeattleDV8]

Stop it, against a flyer the shots can only be resolved if it is a Snap Shot or if you have the Skyfire rule.
Vibro cannons have neither.
This is very simple, and not the silly reading you have given it
BRB pg 81
.... can only be resolved as Snap Shots..

ONLY! is a virbo cannon artillery? YES
can it Snap Shot? NO
Does it have Skyfire? NO
Can it resolve vs Flyers?: No

[Nachodragon]

I completely agree with Eldargal. +1

[daboarder]

It's irrelevant you can snap fire artillery if it has not moved and is not a blast/template

[eldargal]

Vibro cannon shots are not resolved at the flyer, therefore Hard to Hit cannot be invoked.

You are in effect arguing that the area behind a unit has the same special rules as the unit.


ONLY! is a virbo cannon artilley? YES
can it Snap Shot? NO
Does it have Skyfire? NO
Can it resolve vs Flyers?: No

Is a vibro cannon artillery? Yes
Can it snap shot? No
Does it have skyfire? No. (well, maybe? see below)
Can it resolve against flyers? No.
Is a vibro cannon resolved against flyers? No
Is the shot a snap fire? No.

Interesting point, daboarder. The rule is:

Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make snap shots.
It is unclear if it means it can't snap shot after moving or it can't snap shot at all, in my opinion.

[WickedGood]

Stop it, against a flyer the shots can only be resolved if it is a Snap Shot or if you have the Skyfire rule.
Vibro cannons have neither.
This is very simple, and not the silly reading you have given it

Quote the text where a Vibro cannon "shoots" at anything..... Please..... Show me anywhere in any of the rule books where a vibro cannon actualy shoots at another model. Don't interpret what you want, or just keep saying the same thing over and over again. Quote the actual text in a book that says any of these weapon actualy shoot at a flyer. They don't shoot at anything they just hit.

It is not a silly reading it is RAW. You are just interpreting RAW to mean something that is perhaps plausable and even perhaps RAI but after digging for nearly a week I cannot find anything actually written that says HITS="Shoots at"

Stop being a third grader and get some basis for your arguments. You haven't even accurately quoted a rule yet.

[SeattleDV8]

totally crap, the Flyer's rules state attacks can not be resolved unless the attack is a Snap Shot or has Skyfire BRB pg 81.
Which you have not proven for the Vibro cannon

[daboarder]

B]
3) If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged.

4) Can Artillery fire overwatch (assuming the artillery is not blast such as Ork Artillery)

Yes as long as the weapon is not a blast weapon.

Hope that this helps and if you have any other questions please contact us again.[/QUOTE]

From GW

[eldargal]

The rule states shots resolved AT the flyer must be resolved as snap shots. The vibro cannon shot is not resolved AT the flyer, so it does not apply.

totally crap, the Flyer's rules state attacks can not be resolved unless the attack is a Snap Shot or has Skyfire BRB pg 81.
Which you have not proven for the Vibro cannon

Again, here is the actual vibro cannon rule:

A Vibro cannon uses resonant sonic waves to shake its targets apart and fling troops to the ground. When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a 36" straight line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannon rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the vibro cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 S6 hits.

A target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration .
So you roll to hit, but there is no target. The flyer is not the target, so it cannot claim Hard to Hit. It is not an auto-hit weapon, it is not a blast, template or large blast weapon. It is not a snap fire, because it is not resolved at the flyer.

[SeattleDV8]

And it is not resolved

[eldargal]

It is resolved, but not against the flyer. Read the vibro cannon rule I just posted on the previous page. Here it is again, in case going back a page is too much effort:


A Vibro cannon uses resonant sonic waves to shake its targets apart and fling troops to the ground. When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a 36" straight line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannon rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the vibro cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 S6 hits.

A target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration .

The hit is resolved first, a line is drawn, any unit that line passes through suffer D6 hits or in the case of a unit wih AV one glancing hit. It is not an auto-hit because BS was used, it is not a template, blast or large blast. The SHOT is not resolved at the flyer.

[daboarder]

Honestly how about you both read what someone else wrote!

I know it's not the best layout but see my last post. Arty can snapshot if they have not moved

[WickedGood]

totally crap, the Flyer's rules state attacks can not be resolved unless the attack is a Snap Shot or has Skyfire BRB pg 81.
Which you have not proven for the Vibro cannon

That is not actually what the rule says on Page 81. The rule states:
"Shots resolved at Zooming Flyers can only be resolved as Snap Shots."

The premise is that the Vibro Cannon does not create shots but creates hits. Show me where this premise is wrong.

[eldargal]

I've already address the point you raised, but as the shot isn't resolved against the flyer it can't be considered a snap shot anyway.:)

Honestly how about you both read what someone else wrote!

I know it's not the best layout but see my last post. Arty can snapshot if they have not moved


Shots resolved at Zooming Flyers can only be resolved as Snap Shots
Not

Only snap shots and skyfire can be resolved against Zooming flyers
This does not exist, it is not a rule in the BRB, it is not RAW. It is fiction.

[WickedGood]

Honestly how about you both read what someone else wrote!

I know it's not the best layout but see my last post. Arty can snapshot if they have not moved

In this case I think I side with the fact that Arty cannot make snap shots. While the rule is in reference to the movement of the models it seems to reference the units ability as a whole:

"Gun Models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots."

This is abslutely horribly written rules. Instead of a dash which has no actual place in a sentence they should have either used a period or they should have used a comma with a qualifier. The fact that a period will fit leads me to believe they intended it to be two seperate facts.
1. Gun models cannot shoot in the turn they move.
2. Gun models cannot snap fire

I think they were trying to say: Gun Models cannot shoot if they move BECUASE gun models cannot snap fire.

That said, The rules are ambiguous and I wouldn't have an issue with someone playing it either way until it get's FAQ'd I just lean against.

[eldargal]

I agree with WickedGood. But the fact remains it isn't particularly relevent because the vibro cannon shot is not required to snap fire as the shot is not resolved against the flyer.

If I fire a vibro cannon and the line passes through an IG squad, a chimera and a valkyrie then all three are hit. If you argue that the shot cannot be resolved because it is snap fire, then the IG squad and chimera are effectively extended a Hard to Hit rule to which they have no claim. If artillery cannot snap fire, and the shot is a snap fire because flyer is hit, then the IG and Chimera cannot be hit because the vibro cannon could not fire. You are in effect arguing for a Hard to Hit bubble that only affects the vibro cannon.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I find rules threads briefly amusing (and then annoying), people cannot understand what is clearly written on several pieces of paper... and that frustrates me.

[eldargal]

Agreed.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Reminds me of "The Path of the Idiot".
Maybe that's what I'll call my blog. :p

[Terrain Foundry]

Ok, lets see how this ACTUALLY works, in game…

It’s the Shooting Phase of the Eldar players turn….

Eldar Player: I’m going to fire my vibro cannon.

Opponent: Ok cool, go ahead.

Eldar Player: First I roll to hit - I have not yet picked a target.

Opponent: Ok, proceed.

Eldar Player: [rolls dice – it’s a 4] Oh splendid! I have scored a hit. Now I get to draw a 36” line anywhere on the board.

Opponent: Wow! Ok, go for it dude.

Eldar Player: [draws line trough zooming flyer] I think I’de like to draw my line here. According to the rules of my Vibro Cannon your flyer takes a glancing hit. You get your jink save.

Opponent: No! You have to resolve the shot as snap fire! You don’t have snap fire!

Eldar: Errr… Snap fire happens when you roll “to hit”, I’ve already done that, and succeeded. We can’t ignore that result. I can’t go back and re-roll my “to hit”, its already happened. I’ve drawn my line, and it passes through your flyer, and according to the rules of the Vibro Cannon, units with Armour Values take a glancing hit. Your flyer has an Armour Value - it takes a glancing hit.

Opponent: NO NO NO! snap fire! SNAP FIRE! Sky Fire! SKY FIRE!!!!!!!!

Eldar: We’ve gone past that stage dude. The rules for the Vibro Cannon say you take the hit.

Opponent: SNAP FIRE! SNAAAPP FIRE!

Eldar: We seem to have a direct conflict in the rules here. Lets see what the BRB says about this situation. [turns to page 7 of the BRB].
Ah, here we go, under "Basic versus Advanced," and I quote: "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

Opponent: ……………… SNAP FIRE!!!!

Eldar: Hello? Did you just hear what I said?

Opponent: LALALALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU. SKY FIRE. SNAP FIRE!!!

Eldar: Rulebook says to use Vibro Cannon rules, dude. Sorry. They always take precedence.

Opponent: But.. but.. sky fire?... snap fire?

Eldar: Sorry dude.

Opponent: [sobs quietly]

Eldar: [gently stokes opponents head] there there, its ok. Its all ok.

Opponent: [removes a hull point from his flyer]

Both players get on with their lives.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Nicely summed up. I believe that this argument is done.

[eldargal]

Agreed, nicely summed up.

[Tynskel]

You guys are ignoring the rule IN snap fire: IGNORE special rules, AND it references CODEX special rules.

You need a rule that states to override Snap Fire.

No, and the claim that if you hit a Valkyrie and platoon at the same time makes no sense: if you cannot snap fire, it is as though the Valkyrie is NOT there.

[eldargal]

That would only be relevent if the vibro cannon were snap firing, which it is not. A rule that ignores special rules is not relevent when it cannot be invoked.

[Tynskel]

That would only be relevent if the vibro cannon were snap firing, which it is not.

Aaaargh!

That's the point: if you CANNOT resolve something IT DOESN'T HAPPEN!

The flyer ISN'T there for the purposes of the vibrocannon's shot.


It is OBVIOUS that the Vibrocannon has a unique method of shooting, AND the rulebook OVERRIDES the unique shooting UNLESS it specifically overrides snap shot. The Vibrocannon doesn't do this!

[eldargal]

No. The hit is resolved, but not against the flyer. But the flyer is hit as per the vibro cannon rule. Which is not overriden by the BRB, there is no such line that states it overrides codices.


On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence
This is a conflict. Codex overrides BRB. Always, not always except when Tynskel says it doesn't. BRB > Tynskel.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Capital letters everywhere.

This takes me back to my Yugioh tournament days.

[Tynskel]

No. The hit is resolved, but not against the flyer. But the flyer is hit as per the vibro cannon rule. Which is not overriden by the BRB, there is no such line that states it overrides codices.


This is a conflict. Codex overrides BRB. Always, not always except when Tynskel says it doesn't. BRB > Tynskel.

The main rulebook is quite clear here! The rulebook EVEN MENTIONS CODEX RULES!

And the whole 'codex' conflict thingy only applies to rules that are in CONFLICT. The Rulebook states that weapons that have special firing methods cannot snap shot. The Vibrocannon does NOT conflict with this rule. It doesn't say, ignore snap shot, or, can hit flyers. No snap shot means AUTO MISS. The Vibrocannon AUTO MISSES flyers and swooping monstrous creatures.

[Tynskel]

Capital letters everywhere.

This takes me back to my Yugioh tournament days.

I don't bother with the italics and bold; the interface is too inefficient.

[eldargal]

The vibro cannon rule says it hits every unit through which the line passes through, including those with an Amour Value. That is what it does. Snap fire is irrelevent because it isn't a snapfire shot. The codex rules are what apply in this case because no vibro cannon rules are given in the BRB.

You need to:

A) Read the rules
B) Stop making things up

[Tynskel]

You keep missing the part under page 13: the gun CANNOT snap fire. Ie does NOT hit.


You also forget, GW released this GIANT FAQ for codexes. If your weapon WAS not FAQed it didn't gain special abilities!

[eldargal]

The snap fire rule is irrelevent because the shot is not a snap shot.

You are demanding that a BRB rule that is not invoked in this instance be used to override a codex. That is just wrong.

Edit: The vibro cannon does not require special abilities to function the way it is described.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I don't bother with the italics and bold; the interface is too inefficient

Ah, you're one of those guys. :p


Also EG and Tynskel, calm down please.

[Tynskel]

How does CANNOT be fired NOT understood here! It is crystal clear in the rulebook. The RULEBOOK states WEAPONS WITH SPECIAL RULES CANNOT BE FIRED!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=217874&postcount=92

[eldargal]

"Certain special rules like Blast", I don't see Vibro Cannon in the Special Rules section, do you?

Special rules are noted in the weapon profile, the vibro cannon simply has 'Heavy 1, Pinning'.

Codex > BRB, the codex explains how the weapon is to fire.


Indeed the entry for the vibro cannon in the reference section is marked with an asterix, denoting additional (not special) rules and to consult the relevent codex for details. Upon consluting the relevent codex, how are we instructed to handle hits against units with an armour value like flyers? See below:
A Vibro cannon uses resonant sonic waves to shake its targets apart and fling troops to the ground. When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a 36" straight line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. For each vibro cannon in the battery after the first, add 1 to the strength of these hits. For example, a unit of three vibro cannon rolls a 1, a 6 and a 4 to hit; they would draw a single line from one of the vibro cannon and any unit it touches takes D6 S6 hits.

A target with an armour value that is hit by a vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit, do not roll for armour penetration .

Second point, the rulebook does not say units with special rules (which the vibro cannon does not have) cannot fire. It says that units with certain special rules (that the vibro cannon does not have) cannot SNAP fire. The vibro cannon is not snap firing, so it is still irrelevent.


Read the Rules.
Stop making things up.

TDA, I'm calm, just vaguely embaressed by watching someone continue to make such an arse of themselves.:rolleyes:

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

How does CANNOT be fired NOT understood here! It is crystal clear in the rulebook. The RULEBOOK states WEAPONS WITH SPECIAL RULES CANNOT BE FIRED!The Vibro Cannon allows the player to place a 36" line if the crewman can pass a ballistic skill test. This 36" line causes d6 hits/glancing hit to anything under it. It never rolls "To-hit" against anything, and if I don't roll To-hit against the flyer, Hard to Hit, and therefore snap fire, doesn't come into it.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

TDA, I'm calm, just vaguely embaressed by watching someone continue to make such an arse of themselves.:rolleyes:

Oh good, I don't want everyone stressed out... Ruins the day.

Also, if we do not understand how a gun works then we simply don't use it, I think that's a fair compromise.

[eldargal]

Actually the codex describes it as rolling to hit, but you aren't rolling to hit the flyer, so it can't claim Hard to Hit.:) As it always has, Tynskels argument rests on invoking a rule that is irrelevent to the issue at hand. You may as well argue that you can't assault a hovering flyer because flyers that zoom can't be assaulted.

Snap shot = irrelevent to vibro cannon.
Whatever the Snap shot rule says about what weaposn can snap shot = irrelevent to vibro cannon.

End of discussion.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Another compromise then, we should email Games Workshop? They can answer our question once and for all.

For the record: I'm on your side, it clearly states it in the book, black and white.

[eldargal]

I have already emailed GW on the subject, but the more emails they get about it the better.:)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*shrug* I don't know their email address. :p

[eldargal]

[email protected]

I am a river to my people. ;)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There I've emailed them.

[kjolnir]

The snap fire rule is irrelevent because the shot is not a snap shot.

As soon as you try to affect a Swooping or Zooming flyer, it is. You don't have a choice in the matter.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

As soon as you try to affect a Swooping or Zooming flyer, it is. You don't have a choice in the matter.It's only relavent when you try to roll to-hit against a Flyer. Vibro Cannons don't do that.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

News just in! I can't quote the email as it's on my phone.
But basically, GW say that eldargal is right, because it says specifically in the rule for a vibro cannon that it does not require a target you can draw the line from the weapons to shoot whatever you like, for the time being it does not need skyfire to shoot a flyer.

[kjolnir]

It's only relavent when you try to roll to-hit against a Flyer. Vibro Cannons don't do that.

But you're not rolling to hit against the flyer. Ever. Which means you can't make a Snap Shot, which means you can't hit it.

Plus, it's Artillery. Strike two.

[kjolnir]

News just in! I can't quote the email as it's on my phone.
But basically, GW say that eldargal is right, because it says specifically in the rule for a vibro cannon that it does not require a target you can draw the line from the weapons to shoot whatever you like, for the time being it does not need skyfire to shoot a flyer.

Well that's that, then.

Go ahead and take those Vibro Cannons. They'll get glanced to pieces in the first turn anyway ;-)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well that's that, then.

Go ahead and take those Vibro Cannons. They'll get glanced to pieces in the first turn anyway ;-)

They don't get glanced, they have a toughness value now. :p

[kjolnir]

They don't get glanced, they have a toughness value now. :p

Even better. That means they're easier to kill. Vector Strike FTW!

[bfmusashi]

lasers and flashlights are only similar in that they both emit light.

A laser is a mono frequency mono directional beam (spatial and temporal coherence). A flashlight is neither of those things. mirrors aim the light but it is neither spatially or temporally coherent.

Man, I'm glad I went to bed as this thread took a turn for the pissy last night. It doesn't look good when a poster misunderstands a simple compare and contrast statement (a laser is to a flashlight as a vibro cannon is to a speaker) in a rules discussion.

[bfmusashi]

This seems to revolve around a grammatical issue. There's a reason the dash sees rare use in a journal. A dash is between a comma and a colon in terms of separation and was a fairly poor choice for a rulebook. I mean look at how this bad boy can be divvied up:
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that tun's Movement phase, they cannot make Snap Shots.
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase: they cannot make Snap Shots.
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase and they cannot make Snap Shots.
As a Gun model cannot, typically, move in your opponent's Movement phase it seems odd that the Snap Shots bit would be in there unless it meant all the time, but the rulebook also has the puppetmaster power in it. This could not be a total ban on AA fire but intended to keep mind controlled artillery from coming to their senses to shoot at assaulting units.

[Tynskel]

yeah, but you snap shot flyers.
And the Snap Shot rules are explicit: If you use special rules for firing, you cannot Snap Shot.

Unless you have Skyfire, you cannot snap shot at flyers with the Vibrocannon, (which means you miss!). Visa Versa- if you have Skyfire, you cannot snap shot ground targets.

If the Vibrocannon has Skyfire AND interceptor, it could fire at both.

[Aramel]

Yeah so anyway lets all take vibro-cannons and put them behind solid objects! :P Death to all the Mon-Kheig!!

[Nimor]

I believe you are correct it is one Batt firing together you draw one line not 3

[Nimor]

Again your not targeting the flier, your not snap shooting, your not even aiming at the flier, your rolling to hit to make the gun work then after that it follows very specific rules from its own entry. It can indeed hit a flier one its natural BS. Unless they change the way the gun fires or say that if the line crosses a flier then it can only hit on a 6(as per the snapshoot rules on page &^#)

[WickedGood]

yeah, but you snap shot flyers.
And the Snap Shot rules are explicit: If you use special rules for firing, you cannot Snap Shot.

Unless you have Skyfire, you cannot snap shot at flyers with the Vibrocannon, (which means you miss!). Visa Versa- if you have Skyfire, you cannot snap shot ground targets.

If the Vibrocannon has Skyfire AND interceptor, it could fire at both.

Show me where in the rules hits = shots. Any place.... If you can find one place in the entire rule book where shooting at something is the same as hitting it I will at least give your argument some credence. But up until now your whole premise is completely unfounded. Generally you shoot at something and then role a check to see if you hit it in this game.

Snap fire applies to shooting at a target. I completely agree to shoot at a flyer you need to have snap fire.

There are a number of weapons that do not shoot at anything. They just hit things:

Flamers and other template weapons just hit things.

Blast weapons hit things that are not the actual target.

Line weapons hit things under the line. Of the line weapons I know about (Death Ray, Vibro Cannons, Jaws, Blood Lance) 2 of them specifically target a model to begin with (jaws and Blood Lance). The other two do NOT target anything. They just hit things.

Now MOST of the time in 40K in the shooting phase you have to shoot something to hit it. I get that 99% of the weapons out there require that. These two weapons do not. They get to hit things without shooting at them. Heck blast and template weapons get the same benefit but are specifically excluded from damaging flyers. Either the writers missed the fact that there are two weapons that can hit without shooting at something and they will faq it or they intended this to be possible. Until they FAQ it though RAW says that if you can HIT something without shooting at it and it is not a blast or a template weapon then it can damage a flyer.

Now you can either accept this or skip it but please show me one place in any rulebook (and quote the actual page don't just babble some random nonsense or your interpretation of the rules) where hits = shooting. To my knowleedge there are two distinctly different concepts. In fact shooting at something has always been seperated from hitting something either by a BS check, a template or in very rare occasions an automatic affect.

Here is our premise:

Facts
1. The Vibro-Cannon does not shoot at anything
2. Flyers can only be shot at by things with snap shot
3. Flyers cannot be damaged by blasts or template weapons

Premise
A. The fact that the line of a vibro-cannon crosses a flyer does not mean that that the flyer is the target of the shot becuase 1. The Vibro-Cannon does not shoot at anything. Thus the vibro cannon does not need snap fire to hit a flyer.
B. The Vibro Cannon is not a template or a blast weapon and therefore the flyer can be damaged by the weapons.

As far as I can tell your premise is:

The vibro-cannon does not have snap fire. Becuase it does not have snap fire it cannot damage a flyer. I think the only way you are getting there is by trying to equate hits=shots but that is not true in 40K these are two very distinct terms. Find me one place in any rule book where hits=shots though and I will at least review your case.

[bfmusashi]

Show me where in the rules hits = shots. Any place.... If you can find one place in the entire rule book where shooting at something is the same as hitting it I will at least give your argument some credence. But up until now your whole premise is completely unfounded. Generally you shoot at something and then role a check to see if you hit it in this game.

Snap fire applies to shooting at a target. I completely agree to shoot at a flyer you need to have snap fire.

There are a number of weapons that do not shoot at anything. They just hit things:

Flamers and other template weapons just hit things.

Blast weapons hit things that are not the actual target.

Line weapons hit things under the line. Of the line weapons I know about (Death Ray, Vibro Cannons, Jaws, Blood Lance) 2 of them specifically target a model to begin with (jaws and Blood Lance). The other two do NOT target anything. They just hit things.

Now MOST of the time in 40K in the shooting phase you have to shoot something to hit it. I get that 99% of the weapons out there require that. These two weapons do not. They get to hit things without shooting at them. Heck blast and template weapons get the same benefit but are specifically excluded from damaging flyers. Either the writers missed the fact that there are two weapons that can hit without shooting at something and they will faq it or they intended this to be possible. Until they FAQ it though RAW says that if you can HIT something without shooting at it and it is not a blast or a template weapon then it can damage a flyer.

Now you can either accept this or skip it but please show me one place in any rulebook (and quote the actual page don't just babble some random nonsense or your interpretation of the rules) where hits = shooting. To my knowleedge there are two distinctly different concepts. In fact shooting at something has always been seperated from hitting something either by a BS check, a template or in very rare occasions an automatic affect.

Here is our premise:

Facts
1. The Vibro-Cannon does not shoot at anything
2. Flyers can only be shot at by things with snap shot
3. Flyers cannot be damaged by blasts or template weapons

Premise
A. The fact that the line of a vibro-cannon crosses a flyer does not mean that that the flyer is the target of the shot becuase 1. The Vibro-Cannon does not shoot at anything. Thus the vibro cannon does not need snap fire to hit a flyer.
B. The Vibro Cannon is not a template or a blast weapon and therefore the flyer can be damaged by the weapons.

As far as I can tell your premise is:

The vibro-cannon does not have snap fire. Becuase it does not have snap fire it cannot damage a flyer. I think the only way you are getting there is by trying to equate hits=shots but that is not true in 40K these are two very distinct terms. Find me one place in any rule book where hits=shots though and I will at least review your case.

It's "shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42)" p81. Tyn's argument is it is impossible to resolve based on "gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots" p46. I really hate that dash, the more I look at it the more it hurts my editing sense. Further detail is on page 13 "Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots." Further, "It is important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot." Neither entry on page 13 mean line weapons fired at things other than the flyer are out, but they've come up before.
Resolved is not used in the Shooting Phase chapter, which adds to the problem. Are the shots resolved when they hit or when they damage? That's a big deal and a matter of perspective. The forum being what it is I'm certain someone will insist that is not the case.

[Tynskel]

No, thats not my argument in reference to the moving artillery.


My argument is that the Vibrocannon has unique shooting rules, which precludes it from taking snap shots. Page 13 states that weapons with unique shooting rules cannot take snap shots, and they list a whole series of IN rulebook examples, but they take it further and extend this rule to codex special rules. This is why the codex trump rulebook doesn't override, because the rulebook is explicit. The codex needs to specifically override Snap Shots.

Someone brought up that the codex is old: all the codexes are old. We haven't seen a 6th edition codex yet. The point is that GW has FAQs and they addressed specific weapons in these FAQs too. If they were to state the Vibrocannon can hit UFOs, the FAQ would be the place for them to do it.

[bfmusashi]

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. It is important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.
As the Vibro Cannon is not 'fired' as a Snap Shot nor has a special rule saying it can not fire as a Snap Shot (like Blast and Large Blast p33, Ordnance p51, or Template p52) it comes right back to what resolving the shot in the Hard to Hit rule means.

[eldargal]

It is quite specific on that point actually, shots resolved AT the flyer. As in shots that are directed at the flyer. The vibro cannon shot is not resolved at the flyer, so Hard to Hit cannot be invoked therefore it is not a snap shot, if it is not a snap shot snap shot weapon restrictions CANNOT apply.

[Tynskel]

no. If you cannot snap shot, you cannot hit!

You simply MISS.

[Roadkill Zombie]

The funny thing is, you cannot purposely shoot into close combat with any weapons either, yet Lo and Behold!...A vibro cannon simply has to draw the line through a close combat and WHAM!...you are magically shooting into close combat....The exact same thing happens when shooting at flyers with the Vibro Cannon. Whatever the line passes through is gonna either take d6 hits or glances, depending on if it has an Armour Value or if it has wounds. period.

There's no getting around it by trying to argue that you have to have skyfire or that you have to snap shot or anything silly like that.

Bottom line is this. The rules in the codex trump the rules in the core rule book. And the rules in the codex say that any unit the line passes through...

And that's the rub....any unit the line passes through.....now think about that for a moment...

roll it around in your mouth to get a taste for it because it's gonna taste bitter if you aren't used to the flavor....

any unit the line passes through.

any...unit...the...line...passes...through...

any unit( according to page 3 of the core rule book a unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine, or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in it's own right) the line passes through...

again for good measure...any unit the line passes through....are flyers units?...Why yes they are!

So if the line passes through them...they will take glances (or a glance, depending on ruling).

[eldargal]

No, you do not. Any unit that passes through the vibro cannon line is automatically hit as per teh codex rule. That the unit is a flyer is irrelevent, it has an armour value so it is hit.

Once more you need to:

1) Read the rules
2) Stop making things up



no. If you cannot snap shot, you cannot hit!

You simply MISS.

[bfmusashi]

As "Shots resolved* at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved* as Snap Shots" p81 is not going to get solved anytime soon may I suggest the 'Is it rad' test.


Is a combat flyer running into a wall of weaponized sound and exploding rad?
Yes.
Thus the VC can blow up fliers.


*Resolved can mean a lot of things and this sentence can be read so a zooming flyer is immune to anything that is not a Snap Shot or Skyfire. This is not rad.

[eldargal]

Interesting idea.:) But as I said, the shot isn't fired at the flyer so it's rule cannot be invoked.;)

[bfmusashi]

If someone valued parsing sentences more than having a good time they'd be all "it can only be RESOLVED* against a zooming flyer if it Snap Shots or Skyfires. It doesn't have to be fired at it! You can't resolve it so it doesn't count. GAWD!" PSA everyone, no one should talk like this in the game store (or anywhere else). It makes people want to hit you. These rules threads are a fun exercise when a game isn't being played though, that's why I'm here :D

*In all caps because this will be said with a wide open mouth. It will make you swear off Cheetos and Mountain Dew.

[Tynskel]

I love the logic that if you cannot enact a rule, then it must actually hit.
Yeah, that's totally how to 'resolve' this.

Uh, no.

The fact that one cannot resolve the shot *should* be a clue that a hit vs the flyer is invalid.
The fact that the rulebook explicitly references specials rules to hit, including codex special rules, *should* be another clue that the hit vs the flyer is invalid.

[dreadnaughtguy]

I am not so shure it would work this way, as this is supposed to be the most cinematic edition of the game yet. I have a feeling that you can eithor hit flyers or ground targets. It doesn't follow any kind of 3d logic to both hit guys on the ground and a jet flying several thousand feet in the air.

Raw could go eithor way, but I would bet on GW nerfing the gun because of the cinematic inconsistency of a gun shooting a line that can some how create a infinately tall wave of damage that is millimeters thick.

Most of all you should apply KISS. Does it make any kind of in game logical sence to have a beam do this, if not then don't do it.

If it was a beam shot at a flyer it should only hit flyers; and the reverse; if its shot at gound targets it should only hit ground targets.

[Renegade]

I am guessing it will be ruled something like the Deathray (1mm up down and side to side) or they will point to the entry in the BRB.

If something is to good to be true, it generally is.

[Terrain Foundry]

I love the logic that if you cannot enact a rule, then it must actually hit.
Yeah, that's totally how to 'resolve' this.

Uh, no.

The fact that one cannot resolve the shot *should* be a clue that a hit vs the flyer is invalid.
The fact that the rulebook explicitly references specials rules to hit, including codex special rules, *should* be another clue that the hit vs the flyer is invalid.

Will you please read Page 7 of the rule book.

Rulebook rules suggest Vibro Cannons can't hit flyers.
Vibro Cannon rules in the Eldar Codex suggest they CAN hit flyers.

There are two conflicting rules. The rulebook tells us, on page 7 that "Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

It does not say "always take precedence... apart from when Tynskel doesn't want them to."

Always means always! What part of that do you not understand?

Your insistence on spouting the same argument when several people have proved you wrong, the Eldar codex says you are wrong, and the rulebook itself says you are wrong, is just absurd (but quite amusing :)).

[eldargal]

Yup, it's like watching a dog chewing a toffee, you feel maybe you should do something to stop it but it's just so funny. :rolleyes:

Tynskel, for the last time, the codex says units with an armour value are automatically hit. Codex trumps rulebook, ALWAYS. Just as the rulebook says. You invoke rules which do not matter, you make up new rules, you re-word rules but when it comes down to it you do not have a leg to stand on. The rule are clear, you are wrong. Let it go.

[Cherub]

But if he lets it go I will miss the many many many pages of entertainment I have gotten reading this thread. SO in the interest of keeping this thread going for my own amusement.

BRB trumps the eldar codex you all all wrong, when the vibro cannons fire they can only damage eldar units, Tynskel is right, umm what else is there? oh yah why are you playing eldar anyway? everyone knows only marines can win games anyway noobs :p




I will now wait for fun to continue.

[Tynskel]

Will you please read Page 7 of the rule book.

Rulebook rules suggest Vibro Cannons can't hit flyers.
Vibro Cannon rules in the Eldar Codex suggest they CAN hit flyers.

There are two conflicting rules. The rulebook tells us, on page 7 that "Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence."

It does not say "always take precedence... apart from when Tynskel doesn't want them to."

Always means always! What part of that do you not understand?

Your insistence on spouting the same argument when several people have proved you wrong, the Eldar codex says you are wrong, and the rulebook itself says you are wrong, is just absurd (but quite amusing :)).



Here's an example:
Mawloc deep strike:
1) it states deep strike. Activation of a Key rule.
2) instead of 'mishap' do blah blah blah. Targeting a specific Rulebook Rule, and overriding.

That's how the codex is overriding.

The Vibrocannon

1) does NOT address snap shots.
2) The rulebook DOES address special rules regarding snap shot firing, p.13.
3) The FAQs were detailed that even SPECIFIC weapons were addressed. This was the opportunity to modify the vibrocannon and state 'vibrocannon may snap fire' or 'vibrocannon may hit flyers' or 'vibrocannon has both Skyfire and Interceptor USRs'. They DID NOT add these rules to the vibrocannon.

There's NOTHING in the Vibrocannon's rules that states that it should be able to 'Snap Shot'. NOTHING. If you cannot snap shot, that shot does NOT hit a target that is being snap shotted. The rulebook is EXPLICIT that SPECIAL RULES regarding Firing CANNOT SNAP SHOT! You cannot resolve the hit! ie, nothing happens. (cf p.13 Snap Fire).

[eldargal]

You claim the snap shot rule means the vibro cannon cannot damage the flyer, the vibro cannon rule says it can. Codex trumps rulebook. You are still grasping at straws because snap shot still cannot be invoked. The absence of a FAQ on the subjects means nothing. Any more straws you want to grasp at?
The vibro cannon says its armoru values automaticallyso long as a BS check is made. So that is what it does. Snap shots are irrelevent because the flyer is not targeted. There is no rule to the contrary

Read the rules
Stop making things up

[Terrain Foundry]

Here's an example:
The Vibrocannon

1) does NOT address snap shots.
2) The rulebook DOES address special rules regarding snap shot firing, p.13.
3) The FAQs were detailed that even SPECIFIC weapons were addressed. This was the opportunity to modify the vibrocannon and state 'vibrocannon may snap fire' or 'vibrocannon may hit flyers' or 'vibrocannon has both Skyfire and Interceptor USRs'. They DID NOT add these rules to the vibrocannon.

There's NOTHING in the Vibrocannon's rules that states that it should be able to 'Snap Shot'. NOTHING. If you cannot snap shot, that shot does NOT hit a target that is being snap shotted. The rulebook is EXPLICIT that SPECIAL RULES regarding Firing CANNOT SNAP SHOT! You cannot resolve the hit! ie, nothing happens. (cf p.13 Snap Fire).

Heavens above! Go back and read what we've all been telling you over the last 20 pages.

The Vibro Cannon doesn't need to address snap shot for the following reasons:

A. The rules for Vibro Cannon clearly states that if affects "any unit", and more specifically "units with an armour value" take a glancing hit. The tern "any unit" includes everything - friend or foe, locked in combat, out of line of sight, infantry, monsterous creatures, cavalry, and vehicles - and flyers are vehicles, and therefore CAN be hit.

We've already had a 6th ed Eldar FAQ, and theres nothing in there that says - vibro cannons can hit any unit... apart from flyers.

Vibro Cannon rules say the CAN hit flyers. You think rulebook says they can't hit flyers on p13. Codex ALWAYS overrules BRB.

B. Snap fire. The point in the game where you are invoking snap fire is after we've already rolled to hit (and succeeded), discharged the weapon, and affected your flyer. The beam is now occupying the same space as your flyer, and we know that it can affect the flyer, as the flyer is included in "any unit" (see point A), so it is hit.

We skip the part where snapfire is relevant.

[Tynskel]

Again, weapons like PORTAL OF EXILE state any unit in range blah blah blah... Cannot snap shot.

The Rulebook STATES that weapons with SPECIAL firing rules cannot Snap Shot!
(cf p. 13 Snap Shot)

Hits are NOT resolved.

[Belial69]

As an Eldar (along with most other armies,) player, in a group with nobody owning vibrocannons, I'm going to sit on the fence and toss a piece of meat in between the fighting animals....

Would sonic weaponary affect an aircraft capable of supersonic flight?

Would a ruling on this based on it being a sonic weapon also affect slaaneshi sonic weapons?

What if, since the owning player would not accidently set up this situation, they should roll to hit as described but requiring 6's before 'placing' the line?

Just a few thoughts, ignore them if you like. :)

[eldargal]

And the codex says it is resolved, and codex trumps BRB.

Then there is the fact that snap shot rules do not apply as the vibro cannon is not snap firing.

Again, weapons like PORTAL OF EXILE state any unit in range blah blah blah... Cannot snap shot.

The Rulebook STATES that weapons with SPECIAL firing rules cannot Snap Shot!
(cf p. 13 Snap Shot)

Hits are NOT resolved.

[Renegade]

I don't know, page 81 with the hard to hit rule is pretty specific, though I suppose the flyer can still evade the hit as it is a rule for all flyers and works regardless of what it is being hit by.

I guess it comes down to Eldar having a dodgy old codex, with a new one on the way.

[Tynskel]

No, I have given examples from both codex and rulebook.

The rulebook states SPECIAL firing rules CANNOT snap fire. The Vibrocannon has SPECIAL firing rules. The SPECIAL firing rules do not state Snap fire, nor Skyfire, nor interceptor, nor stating it can hit UFOs. There is NO conflict with the rulebook in this regard, therefore, you cannot invoke codex > rulebook.

[eldargal]

Yes, the rule is very specific, shots fired AT the flyer have to be resolved as snap shots. The vibro cannon shot is not resolved at the flyer, therefore the rule cannot be invoked, therefore restrictions on what weapons can snap shot are meaningless. What Tynskel is doing is claiming that a point in space near the flyer can also claim the Hard to Hit rule.

Codex says once you roll to hit, units with an AV suffer an automatic glancing hit. That > BRB, and there is still the fact the snap shot rules are completely irrelevent.

[Belial69]

Does that mean you can use a vibrocannon to ignore veil of tears' previous iteration as it didn't target them?

[eldargal]

You mean current iteration, they still get spotting distance and yes. You pick a line within 36" of the vibro cannon, you roll to hit the designated point, once successful all units through which the line passes through suffer D6 hits. Units with an armour value suffer an automatic glancing hit. Harlequins will be hit, as will flyers.

[Belial69]

Fair enough. I said previous as the FAQ says veil gives shrouded and stealth and I assumed it replaced the spotting distance stuff. And page three of the FAQ does say they can hit units in combat, which is normally also not allowed under most circumstances. I get the feeling this is gonna go round in circles until we get a definate answer from gw.

[Tynskel]

And the codex says it is resolved, and codex trumps BRB.

Then there is the fact that snap shot rules do not apply as the vibro cannon is not snap firing.

No the codex does not say it resolves. It does not state this at all. What it does state is that it has SPECIAL FIRING RULES. If you cannot snap shot you cannot hit. There is NO conflict with the Rulebook rules, BECAUSE of Snap Fire rules (cf p.13 snap fire).

[Renegade]

Yes, the rule is very specific, shots fired AT the flyer have to be resolved as snap shots. The vibro cannon shot is not resolved at the flyer, therefore the rule cannot be invoked, therefore restrictions on what weapons can snap shot are meaningless. What Tynskel is doing is claiming that a point in space near the flyer can also claim the Hard to Hit rule.

Codex says once you roll to hit, units with an AV suffer an automatic glancing hit. That > BRB, and there is still the fact the snap shot rules are completely irrelevent.

Actually, page 81 is very clear in that only snap shots can claim a hit. It is categorical that a unit cannot not negate the only snap fire part of the rule unless the unit has Skyfire. Unless you meet the requirements set out by the Hard to Hit rule on page 81, you cannot hit a flyer. Does the vibrocannon state that it has either of these rules, if not, it cannot hit a flyer type unit as they have their own special rules for doing so in the rule book.

Flyers are a new unit, so cannot be treated in the same way as others as they have their own specific rule.

The rule book is very clear that these rules are required, you would need the weapon profile to specifically say to ignore these rules to effect a flyer (page 80 and 81).

The vibrocannon's rule cannot be invoked because it does not state that it has the means to effect a flyer.

[Tynskel]

AND
Under 'Snap Fire' (cf p.13) the rulebook states that weapons with SPECIAL FIRING RULES cannot Snap Fire. AND it gives multiple examples for both the Rulebook AND Codex weapons.

The Vibrocannon HAS special firing rules.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

AND
Under 'Snap Fire' (cf p.13) the rulebook states that weapons with SPECIAL FIRING RULES cannot Snap Fire. AND it gives multiple examples for both the Rulebook AND Codex weapons.

The Vibrocannon HAS special firing rules.Good thing it doesn't have to Snap Fire, since it's not resolving the to-hit roll against the flyer. This thread is like a perpetual motion machine. If we keep on going, we might create free energy.

[Renegade]

Good thing it doesn't have to Snap Fire, since it's not resolving the to-hit roll against the flyer. This thread is like a perpetual motion machine. If we keep on going, we might create free energy.

Flyers which it cannot effect, because it does not have the correct rules to do so.

[Tynskel]

Good thing it doesn't have to Snap Fire, since it's not resolving the to-hit roll against the flyer. This thread is like a perpetual motion machine. If we keep on going, we might create free energy.

You are missing the point: Snap Fire (cf p.13) is quite clear, weapons with SPECIAL RULES TO HIT cannot snap fire. You can ONLY Snap Fire at UFOs, unless you have Skyfire (which changes what targets are Snap Fire) or an explicit rule overriding Snap Fire. Both of which, the Vibrocannon does not have.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

You are missing the point: Snap Fire (cf p.13) is quite clear, weapons with SPECIAL RULES TO HIT cannot snap fire. You can ONLY Snap Fire at UFOs, unless you have Skyfire (which changes what targets are Snap Fire) or an explicit rule overriding Snap Fire. Both of which, the Vibrocannon does not have.Snapfire happens while rolling to-hit against a flyer. Vibrocannons do not roll to hit against flyers. Fliyers don't have any restrictions about what can glance them, only a restriction about what rolls to-hit.

...chances are if this gets FAQed it'll say they can't, though. Most rule ambiguities roll in favor of the Imperial armies :P

[Nachodragon]

You are missing the point: Snap Fire (cf p.13) is quite clear, weapons with SPECIAL RULES TO HIT cannot snap fire. You can ONLY Snap Fire at UFOs, unless you have Skyfire (which changes what targets are Snap Fire) or an explicit rule overriding Snap Fire. Both of which, the Vibrocannon does not have.

It says certain special rules. It does not say all special rules. It gives example of blast for special rules. It also staes those without bs cannot snapfire, such as gate of exile.

So, if we were to say snap-fire had any relevancy in this discussion, VC is not called out in special riles, and it does use its BS. Furthermore, snap-fire does not address wounding and aemor pen, it only addresses the shooting at portion of weapons.

BUT, the VC is not shooting AT the flyer, therfore, snap-fire does not come in to play.

[Tynskel]

yeah, it doesn't target the flyer, and therefore CANNOT hit the flyer, because it is NOT snap firing.

Your 'to hits' are shooting, and the Rulebook gives multiple examples: all of which have 'auto' hits. You still ROLL to hit with Portal of Exile, Blast Weapons, Large Blast Weapons, and Vibrocannons. HOWEVER, they all have Special Rules to hit, and the Rulebook is QUITE CLEAR, you cannot Snap Fire with those weapons. And to hit flyers you NEED to be able to SNAP FIRE!


Here's an Example:
I fire my ordnance and it SCATTERS onto the Flyer. Everything that is touched by the marker is Hit, HOWEVER, Hard to Hit states that only Snap Fire Weapons can hit, AND Blasts Cannot Snap Fire. Therefore, The Blast Marker MISSES! This IS the SAME situation for the Vibrocannon. It rolls to hit, then a LINE is drawn across the Flyer. It would normally hit anything that the line touches, HOWEVER, the Hard to Hit states that only Snap Fire can hit, AND Vibrocannons CANNOT snap fire, due to special firing rules.

[Renegade]

It says certain special rules. It does not say all special rules. It gives example of blast for special rules. It also staes those without bs cannot snapfire, such as gate of exile.

So, if we were to say snap-fire had any relevancy in this discussion, VC is not called out in special riles, and it does use its BS. Furthermore, snap-fire does not address wounding and aemor pen, it only addresses the shooting at portion of weapons.

BUT, the VC is not shooting AT the flyer, therfore, snap-fire does not come in to play.

Meaning that it does not have the rules that allow you to effect flyers, the unit entry for flyers is very clear on this.

[Nachodragon]

yeah, it doesn't target the flyer, and therefore CANNOT hit the flyer, because it is NOT snap firing.

Your 'to hits' are shooting, and the Rulebook gives multiple examples: all of which have 'auto' hits. You still ROLL to hit with Portal of Exile, Blast Weapons, Large Blast Weapons, and Vibrocannons. HOWEVER, they all have Special Rules to hit, and the Rulebook is QUITE CLEAR, you cannot Snap Fire with those weapons. And to hit flyers you NEED to be able to SNAP FIRE!


Here's an Example:
I fire my ordnance and it SCATTERS onto the Flyer. Everything that is touched by the marker is Hit, HOWEVER, Hard to Hit states that only Snap Fire Weapons can hit, AND Blasts Cannot Snap Fire. Therefore, The Blast Marker MISSES! This IS the SAME situation for the Vibrocannon. It rolls to hit, then a LINE is drawn across the Flyer. It would normally hit anything that the line touches, HOWEVER, the Hard to Hit states that only Snap Fire can hit, AND Vibrocannons CANNOT snap fire, due to special firing rules.

Actually, hard to hit say the blast cannot hit it, not snap-fire. Get your rules straight.

[Tynskel]

No, if you read under snap fire, blasts can't snap fire, it was just reiterated that blasts, period, cannot hit flyers.

My example wasn't about the individual flyer rules, it was about scattering onto a flyer, therefore the shot becomes a snap fire shot.

I was quite clear in my example what I was saying.


Furthermore, now that you have read hard to hit, read snap fire (cf p.13), you are almost there!

[Nachodragon]

No, if you read under snap fire, blasts can't snap fire, it was just reiterated that blasts, period, cannot hit flyers.

My example wasn't about the individual flyer rules, it was about scattering onto a flyer, therefore the shot becomes a snap fire shot.

I was quite clear in my example what I was saying.

That is not at all what happens. If they did not have the line about blasts not being able to hit flyers ever, a blast could scatter on to a flyer. It doesn't some how miraculously turn into a different kind of shot that travels back in time to make someone not roll a dice they already rolled. Get your rules right and logic in order.

[thecactusman17]

I can't believe this, but I have to agree with tynskel. Only weapons that snap fire can hit aircraft. In fact, even with skyfire, you can still only hit with weapons that snap-fire, but at normal ballistic skill. Artillery cannot snap fire. Thus, vibro cannons cannot hit flyers, full stop.

[Nachodragon]

I can't believe this, but I have to agree with tynskel. Only weapons that snap fire can hit aircraft. In fact, even with skyfire, you can still only hit with weapons that snap-fire, but at normal ballistic skill. Artillery cannot snap fire. This, vibro cannons cannot hit flyers, full stop.

Without re-iterating everything. Hard to hit states shots resolved AT the flyer are snap-fire shots. It states nothing about hitting the flyer, just being shot at. Snap-fire does not state anything about shooting at flyers. So it is irrelevant. The VC does not shoot AT anything. Once the eldar gunman realizes where the trigger is, then the line is drawn and everything drawn through is auto-hit.

[thecactusman17]

Weapons that do not roll to hit cannot be snap-fired. You have not rolled to hit a target, per your own statement. You MUST roll snap-fire to shoot at a flyer and hit it. If you don't, then you can't hit it. If you can't, then you can't hit it. Artillery, even discounting the weird shooting rules of the vibro canon, cannot snap-fire. So they cannot hit it.

And that is that.

[SeattleDV8]

Ok, here is how it is spelled out BRB pg. 73 -74 for shooting at vehicles.
1. We roll to hit, (or use the special rules like blast, template or Vibro cannons)

2. we generate Armour Penetration (in most case with a roll but there are several automatic results, like the vibrocannon.)

3. Resolve Damage

This is where the Hard to Hit rule comes into play, although the vibro cannon may have Hit and Glanced It may not Resolve the damage.
Just like the vehicle may be hit and damaged a Save can stop you from resolving the damage.

[thecactusman17]

Seattle, you are mostly right but the point where h2h comes into play is actually before all if those. You declare a target. If the target is a flyer, you must snap-fur. If the target was not a flyer, you did not snap-fire. In either case, artillery will always fail to hit a zooming flyer by default. And since zooming flyers can be shot at without declaring them to be targets, I will give you the following option: do you want to snap fire (if you can) and try to hit the flyer, or do you want to fire as normal and automatically miss.

If you are artillery, you only get the latter.

[Nachodragon]

The VC nevers declares a target, therefore, it does not snap-fire.

[SeattleDV8]

No, Hard to Hit doesn't mention targeting at all.
BRB pg. 81
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots With an exception for Skyfire.

Yes the Vibro cannon can hit and glance a Flyer, what it cannot do is resolve that damage, as it is not a Snap shot or Skyfire.
I'll repeat
1. We roll to hit
2. Armour Penetration
3. Resolve Damage

Once we hit step three we check, did you Snap Fire? do you have Skyfire? if no then you may not resolve

[Nachodragon]

No, Hard to Hit doesn't mention targeting at all.
BRB pg. 81 With an exception for Skyfire.

Yes the Vibro cannon can hit and glance a Flyer, what it cannot do is resolve that damage, as it is not a Snap shot or Skyfire.
I'll repeat
1. We roll to hit
2. Armour Penetration
3. Resolve Damage

Snap-fire does not talk about wounding or armor penetration. How the frak do you resolve something when the rule does not talk about it. The 'shot' is the person choosing the target. Snap-fire is only about shooting at, nothing more. Read the rules for snap-fire. When they talk about wounding or armor penetration then your arguement might hold water.

[thecactusman17]

No, he has a point. Resolving in this case would mean only those his registered at bs1 from a snap-firing model would do damage. S you didn't roll to hit the model you didn't snap fire.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB page 74 Resolving Damage

If you didn't Snap Fire , which you have stated several times, you may not resolve the Hit .

It doesn't matter in the least how you hit it.
It doesn't matter that you Glanced it.

What Hard to Hit does is stop you at step 3 resolving the damage.

[thecactusman17]

So just to make sure I have this right, you can shot as much as you want and roll a natural 20 for armor penetration, but unless you declared that you're model was snap firing at the flyer it doesn't do anything?

Ok, I get more and more impressed with this rule set every day.

[Terrain Foundry]

Ok, this is actually getting quite boring now.

YOU ARE STUCK IN THE ENDLESS LOOP - THERE IS ONLY ONE EXIT

CODEX SAYS YES - Is the flyer a unit? YES - Is is therefore hit by the line. Codex says the line affects any unit, therefore this includes flyers. We've already had a FAQ, they could have excluded flyers, but they did not. It includes flyers.

BRB SAYS NO - Page 81 says you need snap fire to hit the flyer, which vibro cannon does not have.*

THE EXIT BRB says Codex overrules BRB. The beam DOES affect the flyer.

Now you are free from the endless loop!!! Rejoice. REJOICE!



*Even though the snap shot argument is irrelevant, since the vibro cannon has already rolled to hit. Snap fire stage is skipped.




Many points of your arguments are based on miss quotes, poor reading, assumptions and just plain fictional rules that you appear to make up at random.

Lets take a look at some of the greatest hits… I mean misses! In chronological order.



read about how to hit: Every Weapon that does not use BS to hit CANNOT Snap Fire
Poor argument. You should read the rules. Vibro Cannon does use a BS. You’ve also miss-quoted the rule, its any shooting attack that doesn’t use a BS, you’ve added in the “to hit” part, not that it really matters, but you really should stop doing that.



No, the shot may have been 'resolved', ie the line, however, damage can ONLY be rolled against VALID targets. You simply MISSED the UFO (obviously, vibro cannons do not 'arc').
It is a valid target, it is a unit with an armour value, it takes a glancing hit. You’ve also invented the part about missing the flyer. Where in the rules does it say this happens? Stop doing that.



the UFO rules are quite clear: you MUST be able to Snap Fire a weapon to hit the UFOs. If you cannot, you miss. Artillery rules CLEARLY state they cannot snap fire. The Vibrocannon rules override NORMAL shooting, but UFO targeting is NOT normal shooting.
Again, you’re using rules you’ve invented (highlighted in bold). And I’ll reiterate, the Vibro cannon affects any unit.



Just making up responses doesn't work. You need to point to rules that specifically override the rulebook rules.
Seriously? This is hilarious. You are the one making up rules.



The rules go through all exceptions INCLUDING naming a weapon from a Codex!
You MUST not use funky rules to hit while in Snap Fire, unless the funky rule states that snap fire is allowed.
You are right – it does give a codex example… of a shooting attack that doesn’t use a BS. The actual wording is “certain special rules, such as blast”. It does not mention beam weapons, or vibro cannons. Besides, snapfire is irrelevant.



Yes. Because the FAQ could have stated otherwise. They changed MANY rules in the FAQs. They could have stated, Vibrocannons can Snap Fire. They didn't and the rulebook is QUITE CLEAR that non-normal shooting weapons CANNOT Snap Fire.
Flawed argument. The current rules for Vibro cannon say it can hit “any unit”, they could have amended the rules in the FAQ to exclude flyers… but they didn’t.


[
You guys are ignoring the rule IN snap fire: IGNORE special rules, AND it references CODEX special rules.

You need a rule that states to override Snap Fire.
You need a rule that states your flyer isn’t a unit with an armour value.



That's the point: if you CANNOT resolve something IT DOESN'T HAPPEN!

The flyer ISN'T there for the purposes of the vibrocannon's shot.
Again - making up rules.



The main rulebook is quite clear here! The rulebook EVEN MENTIONS CODEX RULES!
Again, the codex example was for attacks that don’t use a BS. And snap fire is irrelevant.




You keep missing the part under page 13: the gun CANNOT snap fire. Ie does NOT hit.
The shot has already hit. We’ve already rolled for it.



How does CANNOT be fired NOT understood here! It is crystal clear in the rulebook. The RULEBOOK states WEAPONS WITH SPECIAL RULES CANNOT BE FIRED
You’’ve missed out the word “certain”, and examples given do not include beams, waves, lines or vibro cannons. By your logic, rending, pinning, and melta weapons also wouldn’t work.



yeah, but you snap shot flyers.

And the Snap Shot rules are explicit: If you use special rules for firing, you cannot Snap Shot.
Again…. You’’ve missed out the word “certain”, and examples given do not include beams, waves, lines or vibro cannons. By your logic, rending, pinning, and melta weapons also wouldn’t work.



My argument is that the Vibrocannon has unique shooting rules, which precludes it from taking snap shots. Page 13 states that weapons with unique shooting rules cannot take snap shots, and they list a whole series of IN rulebook examples, but they take it further and extend this rule to codex special rules. This is why the codex trump rulebook doesn't override, because the rulebook is explicit. The codex needs to specifically override Snap Shots.

Someone brought up that the codex is old: all the codexes are old. We haven't seen a 6th edition codex yet. The point is that GW has FAQs and they addressed specific weapons in these FAQs too. If they were to state the Vibrocannon can hit UFOs, the FAQ would be the place for them to do it.

We’ve already covered both these points in the quotes above. You keep repeating the same mistakes.



no. If you cannot snap shot, you cannot hit!

You simply MISS.
Again – the same fictional rule.
NOTE: You state in all the quotes above that the vibro cannon cannot HIT, but in the quotes below, you say it CAN hit, but is invalid – you just contradicted yourself, but at least you now acknowledge that the flyer IS hit – We’re finally getting somewhere. Yay! Now you just need to realise that the hit causes a glancing result



The fact that one cannot resolve the shot *should* be a clue that a hit vs the flyer is invalid.
The fact that the rulebook explicitly references specials rules to hit, including codex special rules, *should* be another clue that the hit vs the flyer is invalid.



Again, weapons like PORTAL OF EXILE state any unit in range blah blah blah... Cannot snap shot.

The Rulebook STATES that weapons with SPECIAL firing rules cannot Snap Shot!
(cf p. 13 Snap Shot)

Hits are NOT resolved.
Again, really really poor quoting, irrelevant example with the Portal as we’ve already establish. But you at least acknowledge the hit has occured.



No, I have given examples from both codex and rulebook.

The rulebook states SPECIAL firing rules CANNOT snap fire. The Vibrocannon has SPECIAL firing rules. The SPECIAL firing rules do not state Snap fire, nor Skyfire, nor interceptor, nor stating it can hit UFOs. There is NO conflict with the rulebook in this regard, therefore, you cannot invoke codex > rulebook.
I agree that there is NO conflict with the rulebook, because Vibro cannon rules state is can affect ‘any unit”, and snap fire is irrelevant. You are the one causing the conflict by insisting that snap fire applies after the HIT has been made. Once the hit is made, the only way to resolve is to apply a glancing result (after jink save). If you insist on snap fire applying then we DO have a conflict, which is resolved by the rule on page 7 BRB. Codex wins.



No the codex does not say it resolves. It does not state this at all. What it does state is that it has SPECIAL FIRING RULES. If you cannot snap shot you cannot hit. There is NO conflict with the Rulebook rules, BECAUSE of Snap Fire rules (cf p.13 snap fire).
Nooooo! You’ve contradicted yourself AGAIN! You were doing so well.



You are missing the point: Snap Fire (cf p.13) is quite clear, weapons with SPECIAL RULES TO HIT cannot snap fire. You can ONLY Snap Fire at UFOs, unless you have Skyfire (which changes what targets are Snap Fire) or an explicit rule overriding Snap Fire. Both of which, the Vibrocannon does not have.
Again, badly miss quoting the rules. Its not “special rules to hit”, it is “certain special rules” which are listed. And snap fire is irrelevant, hit has already occurred.

[Nachodragon]

Snap-fire does not affect wounding or armor penetration. How do you 'resolve' snap-fire at infantry? The fact they choose to say resolving damage doesn't mean anything. There is no such thing as damge in 40k, it is a fluff word. Fact is, shooting at a flyer you need to have skyfire or snap-fire. VC is not shooting at a flyer, so it doesnt need to snap-fire. It glances whatever flyer gets in its way.

[Tynskel]

I stopped reading at the first one, because you have it wrong, so it isn't a bad assumption.

Blasts use BS to hit. Every single example on page has all oddball ways to fire. The rule is that if you have special rules to hit, you cannot snap fire. If you cannot snap fire, you cannot shoot UFOs. The codex needs to be explicit. No, the codex is not explicit, it DOES NOT override Snap Fire, it overrides NORMAL SHOOTING.

If you cannot snap fire you cannot resolve hits.


Bwhahahah, this is hilarious- how do you resolve a hit? Oh I know, you either ROLL TO WOUND, OR ROLL TO PEN. Whooooa! That's so hard. SOOOOOO, if you cannot 'resolve' a hit, then OBVIOUSLY you cannot roll to wound or to pen!

[Cereal n' Milk]

*Even though the snap shot argument is irrelevant, since the vibro cannon has already rolled to hit. Snap fire stage is skipped.


It is completely relevant. Making a snap shot has a direct effect on the roll to hit. Do you roll the dice and then declare whether or not you are making a snap shot?

"Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement Phase - They cannot make Snap Shots." pg 46 Main Rulebook, Shooting Artillery

"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots." pg 81 Main Rulebook, Hard to Hit

Snap shots are required to hit fliers, and it is explicitly stated that Artillery cannot make snap shots. Treat it like a blast weapon if you want. Blast weapons use BS, but the unit under the blast is automatically hit. Just like the Vibro Cannon, and blast weapons cannot hit a zooming flyer.

Also, the Eldar codex states that "Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits..." Because you did not make a snap shot, the line does not pass through the flyer, so it suffers no hits.

[eldargal]

Shots AT a flyer, not hits on a flyer. The vibro cannon doesn't target the flyer, it merely hits the flyer. Snap shot is thus not relevent.

Read the damned rule, you roll to hit (that is the hit being resolved) then you draw the line to the designated point against which you resolved the hit and all units through which the line passes suffer automatic hits or in the case of something with an AV an automatic glancing hit.

The codex does not have to specifically override snap shot. If the codex says it hits a unnit, which it does, and the BRB say it doesn't hit (which the BRB does not say) then that is a conflict and the codex overrides the BRB. There is no real conflict, however, as snap shot cannot be invoked as the flyer isn't targetted, so what snap shot says in relation to artillery is irrelevent.

[Renegade]

Shots AT a flyer, not hits on a flyer. The vibro cannon doesn't target the flyer, it merely hits the flyer. Snap shot is thus not relevent.

Read the damned rule, you roll to hit (that is the hit being resolved) then you draw the line to the designated point against which you resolved the hit and all units through which the line passes suffer automatic hits or in the case of something with an AV an automatic glancing hit.

The codex does not have to specifically override snap shot. If the codex says it hits a unnit, which it does, and the BRB say it doesn't hit (which the BRB does not say) then that is a conflict and the codex overrides the BRB. There is no real conflict, however, as snap shot cannot be invoked as the flyer isn't targetted, so what snap shot says in relation to artillery is irrelevent.

The rules in the BRB on pages 80-81 are explicit, there is no way round them. There is nothing in the Eldar codex or FAQ regarding that says that the rules for flyers is ignored.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Wow, despite my announcement this argument is still happening. :rolleyes:

[eldargal]

Yes, it explicitly states that SHOTS resolved AT the flyer can only be snap shots. But the vibro cannon SHOT is not AT the flyer, so the rule has no impact upon it.


Everyone just seemed to gloss over it.

Wow, despite my announcement this argument is still happening. :rolleyes:

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Everyone just seemed to gloss over it.

Because it wasn't in GIANT QUOTE-Y BOX. :p

[Tynskel]

Yes, it explicitly states that SHOTS resolved AT the flyer can only be snap shots. But the vibro cannon SHOT is not AT the flyer, so the rule has no impact upon it.


Everyone just seemed to gloss over it.

This is what I love about this argument. The Rulebook states that Shots resolved AT the flyer can only be snap shots.

The Vibrocannon NEVER shot at the flyer, BECAUSE it DIDN'T SNAP SHOT (cf. p.81 Hard to Hit), AND because the Vibrocannon CANNOT Snap Shot (cf. p.13 Snap Shot).

'Codex trumps rulebook' is inapplicable, because of the two rules I stated (cf. p.81, p.13). The Vibrocannon is not explicitly overriding these rules, AND the Vibrocannon's rules work WITHIN the structure of the rulebook rules (cf. p.13, p.81).

I think this sums up how I have won this argument, courtesy of xkcd.com:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/argument_victory.png

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

How did that solve ANYTHING?

Surely my post ended this argument?

[eldargal]

No, the vibro cannon never shot at the flyer because it doesn't target units, it just hits them. Penalties to shooting atthe flyer or any other unit do not apply. Again you comprehensively show you missed the point completely.

Irrelevent drivel

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Right, when I go to my mate's tonight I shall post a FULL explanation of the email that I have received from Games Workshop. Tynskel is wrong and I am bored of this argument.

[eldargal]

Bet you ten pounds they will then:

1) Accuse you of making it up
2) Claim GW got it wrong

All because they:

1) Need to read the rules
2) Stop making things up


:rolleyes:

[Vashtek]

RAW, I have to side with Eldargal etc.

However, I can't believe this is what is intended. Logically it just seems all wrong, but logic does not equal right.

I would expect this to be FAQ'ed, but in the meantime, going on the strict wording in the rulebook and codexes, I would agree that vibrocannons hit flyers automatically.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Bet you ten pounds they will then:

1) Accuse you of making it up
2) Claim GW got it wrong

All because they:

1) Need to read the rules
2) Stop making things up


:rolleyes:

This is true... At least we know that we are right. :D

[Duke]

And folks, that completes the 500th lap. Thank you for attending the Lounge 500!

Thread closed.