Reserves Clarifaction for Valkryies and Vendettas.

[Flammenwerfer13]

I run a all Valkyrie/Vendetta list for my IG. Now that they state that flyers are all start in reserves. Now only half you're units can start in reserves ignoring those that have to start in reserve. All my IG infantry (4 Vet squads, CCS, and PBS) all ride in the Flyers. This is were I'm worried. I can start all my Infantry in the flyers which are required to start in reserves but because the rules not being clear for this situation I'm worried someone will be a tool and try and argue that I have to start half my Infantry on the board thus negating the whole point I've ran this list for two years.

Did I miss something in the rules allowing this? What is the arguments pro-con for this? Anything will help as I'm trying to get ahead of the curve on this before it becomes a pain.


Also Ongoing Reserves is very ambiguous on how a flyer re-enters from reserves. Can I still DeepStrike/Outflank with a Valkyria/Vendetta with on going reserves?

[Wildcard]

Imo it is clearly stated in the rules that units that always have to start from the reserves (and any passengers they may carry) don't count as that max half of your forces in reserves..

Also, isn't 'ongoing' reserves a "second reserve pool" where your forces are allowed to automatically come back to the game, once they have first time showed up to the table? (not sure, just a hunch)

[Archon Charybdis]

Imo it is clearly stated in the rules that units that always have to start from the reserves (and any passengers they may carry) don't count as that max half of your forces in reserves

This is incorrect. Units with Dedicated Transports count as one unit, any units embarked onto a Vendetta/Valk, Falcon, HS Land Raider, etc. have no special exemption and are still counted against your maximum reserves units.

In the OP's case, he has 6 units for the purposes of determining reserves, meaning he can place 3 of his infantry squads in reserves to start (embarked on a Vendetta or not).

Lots of people's reserve lists got screwed.

[George Labour]

Hate to say it but for now it seems you'll only get to start half of your squads/units in reserve.

However the drop troops list in Imperial armor 8 includes the option to take valkyries as dedicated transport for most of your regular squads. You lose almost all of your heavy tanks , and heavy weapons but the other options tend to make up for it. Plus you can then have your entire army start off the board if you are so inclined.

[Tynskel]

switch the vets to a platoon. Bam. Problem solved, only one squad has to star on the board.

[Flammenwerfer13]

Hate to say it but for now it seems you'll only get to start half of your squads/units in reserve.

However the drop troops list in Imperial armor 8 includes the option to take valkyries as dedicated transport for most of your regular squads. You lose almost all of your heavy tanks , and heavy weapons but the other options tend to make up for it. Plus you can then have your entire army start off the board if you are so inclined.

I'm a tournament junky so IA8 is a no-go for me :/
Plus the Vet squads are 10 pts more expensive and I run Creed for the large bubble for orders.

[Melon-neko]

Yeah it doesn't work anymore =( The rules IMO are very clear on the rules. Your flyers start in reserve. They aren't dedicated transports, so half the rest of your army can be in reserve, transported by them or not.

I'm trying to decide what to do about my air cav as well ^^

(although really I don't even want to start in reserve, the problem being is that they have to start in reserve >.<)

[plasticaddict]

I right there with you guys. I built my Air Cav, ran it in a store tournament the same month the Valkyrie kit came out and haven't looked back since. But having to start all of my vehicles off the table screws my entire army over. I love the army, it's always given me great games, but it looks like it's time for ebay.

Thanks GW for ruining my favorite army.

[sangrail777]

At first glance I didn't think nothing of this thread. But after removing my head from my third point of contact I find myself deeply troubled by this. I run three Storm Ravens loaded with three dreads, tac and assault squads, along with a couple of Jump Assault squads. My Storm Ravens are not dedicated transports and I can only reserve 50% of my army. This really sucks.
I hope there is some way around this. If anybody finds it please post.

[Subexarch]

I run a all Valkyrie/Vendetta list for my IG. Now that they state that flyers are all start in reserves. Now only half you're units can start in reserves ignoring those that have to start in reserve. All my IG infantry (4 Vet squads, CCS, and PBS) all ride in the Flyers. This is were I'm worried. I can start all my Infantry in the flyers which are required to start in reserves but because the rules not being clear for this situation I'm worried someone will be a tool and try and argue that I have to start half my Infantry on the board thus negating the whole point I've ran this list for two years.

Did I miss something in the rules allowing this? What is the arguments pro-con for this? Anything will help as I'm trying to get ahead of the curve on this before it becomes a pain.


Also Ongoing Reserves is very ambiguous on how a flyer re-enters from reserves. Can I still DeepStrike/Outflank with a Valkyria/Vendetta with on going reserves?

Looking at my book just now, yep, your screwed. All the valks/vendies MUST start in reserves and only 1/2 of the guys that ride in them can start in reserves. BA DOA lists are totally boned as well.:eek:

Ongoing Reserves states the when a unit re-enters it follows the normal rules for reserves. So it would seem no deepstrike or outflank. With the huge amount of movement a flyer has I really dont see that as an issue unless you didn't drop your troops off before you left the table.

[Wolfshade]

Your what is screwed?

But yeah it looks like the DoA will now have to either divert points to squads that start deployed or think of something else.
Possibly more infantry (non-jump) based with just a little death star perhaps.
I would like to see more Tycho use as his Deadman's hand ignores armour and strikes at initative as it isn't any form of power weapon.

[gendoikari87]

to all those with aircav lists, put them in reserve if your TO or opponent have a problem with it, pack up and leave. it's just a game.

[Archon Charybdis]

to all those with aircav lists, put them in reserve if your TO or opponent have a problem with it, pack up and leave. it's just a game.

...And this seems like a very douchey, non-casual attitude to take when it comes to following the same rules as everyone else. "I can't have a special advantage over the other people playing? Screw you, I'm taking my ball and going home."

Lots of people's reserves based lists got hit hard by this change. I also have a hard time feeling much sympathy for IG when the already cheap and powerful Vendetta got a huge boost to it's firepower, while some flyer models like the Razorwing have had their ability to shoot nerfed significantly.

[kjolnir]

to all those with aircav lists, put them in reserve if your TO or opponent have a problem with it, pack up and leave. it's just a game.

So break the rules and if someone calls you on it, quit?

That's an interesting approach to playing games.

[gendoikari87]

...And this seems like a very douchey, non-casual attitude to take when it comes to following the same rules as everyone else. "I can't have a special advantage over the other people playing? Screw you, I'm taking my ball and going home."

Lots of people's reserves based lists got hit hard by this change. I also have a hard time feeling much sympathy for IG when the already cheap and powerful Vendetta got a huge boost to it's firepower, while some flyer models like the Razorwing have had their ability to shoot nerfed significantly.

it's not asking for special rules it's asking to not have the army you built up over two years be deemed illegal. There's a difference, if you don't like it, you don't have to play it.

[Flammenwerfer13]

Looking at my book just now, yep, your screwed. All the valks/vendies MUST start in reserves and only 1/2 of the guys that ride in them can start in reserves. BA DOA lists are totally boned as well.:eek:

Ongoing Reserves states the when a unit re-enters it follows the normal rules for reserves. So it would seem no deepstrike or outflank. With the huge amount of movement a flyer has I really dont see that as an issue unless you didn't drop your troops off before you left the table.

So from you're table edge then? Not an issue really just a clarification, thank you.

[Flammenwerfer13]

...And this seems like a very douchey, non-casual attitude to take when it comes to following the same rules as everyone else. "I can't have a special advantage over the other people playing? Screw you, I'm taking my ball and going home."

Lots of people's reserves based lists got hit hard by this change. I also have a hard time feeling much sympathy for IG when the already cheap and powerful Vendetta got a huge boost to it's firepower, while some flyer models like the Razorwing have had their ability to shoot nerfed significantly.

While I see what the other poster is saying to me it's nothing to do with being douchey or non-casual it's just GW's typical retardiness and they're inbreeding of ideas. I will place a $1000 that there isn't a single 'play tester' in their company that ran a all Reserve list of any type and so they never really thought it was an issue nor fleshed out any ideas. While I understand assaulting out of reserves (Wolf scouts, Ork Commando's and Storm Troopers are now 90% useless since they can't assault the turn they arrive) this only 50% in reserves seems to contradict a lot of they're intent.

That being said expect a FAQ in 6 months stating that anything starting in a flyer doesn't count towards you're reserves.

[EnglishInquisition]

Maybe they realised that these lists just gave an unfair advantage in the new scenarios?

IG unwitting Space Marines just because they're mounted in Valkyrie/Vendetta, hmmmm, I doubt it. The idea of the new style of game is way more tactical and having your opponent ALWAYS see where you set up before making his move is a bit unfair and annoying. I have done that in 5th but only to avoid a turn 1 assault by Shrike and his stealthy Assault Marines!
Now that isn't a threat, you have to look at your airborne armies as either arriving in waves, or an advance element on the ground calling them in. I hope they don't FAQ this to allow it- but if they do and none of those reserve turn up on turn 2 and you auto-lose please don't bleat that the game is broken and it should be FAQ'd again so your army works how you want it to!

Accept the change, change your tactics, change your army. None of these will stop you and your opponent having a great game!

[thecactusman17]

EnglishInquisition, if my good friend who plays all air cavalry (a truly beautiful force with numerous Forge World Vendetta gunships) can't use his army that's 100% legal by codex but illegal by the new rules, then there is no justice. This isn't an issue of "adapt" becaues there is nothing to adapt. You can't have an air cavalry list when your army is forced out of their transports before they even arrive. It utterly defeats the purpose and intent of the army.

[EnglishInquisition]

Cactus, I fully understand what you are saying and there's nothing better than having those beautiful Armies on a table top (well there is but we can't go into that on this forum!)

In a pick up game at a local shop/club then I'm sure most gamers would be ok with it- Elysian list?- Cool lets play!
Want a themed game where I know that I'm going to be facing an air assault- hell yeah, dig me out of my AA gun emplacements!
BUT to "blanket ok" something that isn't in the rules for all the tournament gamers (who are also probably going to hack off all power swords from their models and replace them with axes- cos u can!! )? I don't think so!

[Tynskel]

EnglishInquisition, if my good friend who plays all air cavalry (a truly beautiful force with numerous Forge World Vendetta gunships) can't use his army that's 100% legal by codex but illegal by the new rules, then there is no justice. This isn't an issue of "adapt" becaues there is nothing to adapt. You can't have an air cavalry list when your army is forced out of their transports before they even arrive. It utterly defeats the purpose and intent of the army.

Isn't Valkyries dedicated transports for elysians?

[EnglishInquisition]

They are, but that's a FW list so not eligible for tournaments (yet).
There are slight differences between a codex AirCav army and an Elysian one. Elysian armies don't use Orders, they get IronDiscipline instead.
Bit of a 'cake and eat it' syndrome.

[Tynskel]

Well, people who limit forgeworld ARMIES at tournaments are giant bags filled with perfumes.

Codex Air Cavs make sense. There were units deployed, and they have called for extra troops, n' Air Support.

If you want to play 'Apocalypse Now!' and have 'Flight of the Valkyries' on in the background, you should be playing Elysians.

[EnglishInquisition]

Exactly!
And give up your orders! Don't whine that you can't have it all ways.

[angeleania]

There is one real reason all the Multi Vendetta players are up in arms. If going first they deploy, scout then 12" move drop the vets and flame/melta the oppo. Turn 1 i win i win...
Go second, right i reserve so you dont get a shot, i come in realisiticaly with half the force turn 2 and then laz all those nasty tanks, haha i killed half your army before u got to fire....

Get over it. so your list does not work, you may have to think on how to play. I run Nids, what the hell do we get to deal with your vendets turn 1 turn 2 or ever. Change the game, i use to be able to shoot those transports now i need 6's.... , I want i want all the tournaments to change it so i can still shoot with some hope of dealing with the fliers... i want.

At least serve up some cheese with all that wine, oh you did 6 Fliers... 12- 18 twin link LAZ HAHA the only unit able to deal with fliers is in the same codex, and you complain?

Fires me up to hear Leaf blower variants crying foul.:mad: (yes i know its not a full leaf blower)

Of course you do realise that in about 12 months your list will be dead even if you can reserve, cause after they release all the fliers, then they release the Skyfire units. Most will get some form of interceptor weapon.:D

[Yarlen Fireblade]

There is one real reason all the Multi Vendetta players are up in arms. If going first they deploy, scout then 12" move drop the vets and flame/melta the oppo. Turn 1 i win i win...
Go second, right i reserve so you dont get a shot, i come in realisiticaly with half the force turn 2 and then laz all those nasty tanks, haha i killed half your army before u got to fire....

Get over it. so your list does not work, you may have to think on how to play. I run Nids, what the hell do we get to deal with your vendets turn 1 turn 2 or ever. Change the game, i use to be able to shoot those transports now i need 6's.... , I want i want all the tournaments to change it so i can still shoot with some hope of dealing with the fliers... i want.

At least serve up some cheese with all that wine, oh you did 6 Fliers... 12- 18 twin link LAZ HAHA the only unit able to deal with fliers is in the same codex, and you complain?

Fires me up to hear Leaf blower variants crying foul.:mad: (yes i know its not a full leaf blower)

Of course you do realise that in about 12 months your list will be dead even if you can reserve, cause after they release all the fliers, then they release the Skyfire units. Most will get some form of interceptor weapon.:D
Absolutely +1.
Flying AV 12 medium tanks with more firepower than an annihilator Predator just got a lot more powerful in 6th, and you still complain?
You move 36 now, fire four weapons, have a tanks' hull points... all in a platform underpriced even in 5th.

[thecactusman17]

I play Dark Eldar with three razor wing jet fighters, and have done so since before the models were released. That restriction is foolish and completely nullifies one of the rarest and coolest armies played in the game.

[quinn]

Read page 122 under Victory Conditions. Even if you could reserve your whole force you would automatically lose at the end of turn 1. I think that puts an end to 100% Reserve armies irregardless of whether you use an IA list or not.

[EnglishInquisition]

It's 100% deliberately done!
Fully reserved armies aren't really that fun to play against. They may well get an FAQ at some point excluding the turn 1 auto lose, but until then put something on the board as an advance force, give your opponent a full game, hope it doesn't die, and pray you roll a load of 3's on turn 2!
The only all reserve army that should be viable is a SM Drop Pod Assault because they are guaranteed half their force turn 1.

[Tynskel]

And Daemons

[EnglishInquisition]

And Daemons


And Daemons!
:)

[Maine]

+1 to angeleania, and I'm an IG player and Elysian fan.

Like previous posters have said, all-reserve armies are just patently unfair, and are not enjoyable to play against.

Put half your units on the board, treat them as having already been dropped and their transports will be circling back around, and have a fun game. Stop moaning that you can no longer play your one very specific playstyle, and try something different (or learn to adapt).

[Gloomfang]

The other option is to squadron up you fliers. 3 valks in a squadron just need 1 unit on the board to balance them (plus whatever is in them.)

You run the risk of getting OMed to death, but you can run 9 Flyers in a 1999pt army.

[xilton]

ok, if I'm playing 1500 GK draigowing. 2 storm ravens draigo, libby and 10 pallies. the 2 SRs are in reserve but the 2 squads MUST start on the table? 50% rule.

[Tynskel]

read about flyers.

[xilton]

yea, have to wait till tonight :(