You CAN Have a Fully Reserved Drop Pod Army

[Chris Copeland]

I’ve recently heard it suggested that I’m going to have to shelve my Drop Pod Space Marine army. I’ve heard arguments that, even with a Drop Pod army, I can’t start entirely in reserve.

To put it mildly, I disagree. I think GW is pretty clear on this one, although they did leave it just ambiguous enough to cause a bunch of arguments. Here is why you can place your Drop Pod Army fully in reserve:



The Basic Rule Book says that up to 50% of your army can be held in reserve. Further, units that MUST start the game in reserve do not count toward this percentage.
Drop Pods MUST start in reserve.
On page 124 it says “A unit and it’s Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” That is a key point.
Thus, my unit of Marines and their Drop Pod are one unit. Full stop. Period. The Drop Pod is required to start in reserve.
There is NO rule that says I need to separate the two. There is no rule that says I need to break them up. There IS a rule that says “a unit and it’s Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” GW is not being ambiguous about this point at all. My Marines and their Drop Pod are a single unit.
Thus, they start in reserve. They have to. The Drop Pod's rule dictates that they do. The same goes for all of the unit’s that I choose to give Drop Pods to.


I will close with this: this doesn’t mean that putting troops in ANY dedicated transport gives you the choice to have them start in reserve. I could put Marines in a Rhino. That unit (again, one unit) could start in reserve or could be forced to start on the table. The same goes for putting Marines in a Land Raider. They could go in reserve or could be forced to start on the table. The 50% rule covers them nicely.

That covers Rules as Written. Clearly, I think that Rules as Intended (the spirit of the rules) also means that my Drop Pod army can start fully in reserve. However, I don’t feel that I need to turn to RAI since I think that RAW covers this quite nicely.

Cheers and good gaming to all. Copeland

[Tynskel]

someone was arguing with you on this point?

[Chris Copeland]

Yes. A buddy of mine was trying to tell me otherwise so I thought that I'd put my thoughts down succinctly. :)

[olberon]

amen to that!! indeed droppod armies are still a good way to go :D

[Demonus]

Yup however a full reserve outflanking Khan army is no more.

[gendoikari87]

Half your army? points wise or unit wise, unit wise i'm good, I play Guard/GK

[plawolf]

I cannot see how anyone could argue that an all drop pod army cannot all start in reverse. What, you are supposed to start half your army on the table and drop empty drop pods?

I think you have covered it pretty well already. Drop pods have to start in reserve, if you choose to have all your units start off embarked in drop pods, then they must all start in reserve. Simples.

Same thing with a BA or GK all stormraven list. If your entire army can embark on transports that must start in reserve, and you choose to embark them, everything starts in reserve.

[isotope99]

I cannot see how anyone could argue that an all drop pod army cannot all start in reverse. What, you are supposed to start half your army on the table and drop empty drop pods?

I think you have covered it pretty well already. Drop pods have to start in reserve, if you choose to have all your units start off embarked in drop pods, then they must all start in reserve. Simples.

Same thing with a BA or GK all stormraven list. If your entire army can embark on transports that must start in reserve, and you choose to embark them, everything starts in reserve.

Although I agree that air cav lists like this should be allowed, I don't think that they are because of the fact that they cannot be taken as dedicated transports per the rules quoted above. Some houseruling would therefore be needed here, maybe trading some flakk missiles or extra skyfire units to balance things out ;).

[helvexis]

Same thing with a BA or GK all stormraven list. If your entire army can embark on transports that must start in reserve, and you choose to embark them, everything starts in reserve.

i think this only applies to dedicated transports but yes also things like Al'Rahaem have to outflank :)

[Tynskel]

Half your army? points wise or unit wise, unit wise i'm good, I play Guard/GK

don't forget, Guard has special rules for deployment of their Platoons. They act as 1 FOC until they hit the board.

[plawolf]

Although I agree that air cav lists like this should be allowed, I don't think that they are because of the fact that they cannot be taken as dedicated transports per the rules quoted above. Some houseruling would therefore be needed here, maybe trading some flakk missiles or extra skyfire units to balance things out ;).

Ah, good to know. Don't have the rulebook so am a little fuzzy on some details. Cheers for clearing that up for me. :)

[gendoikari87]

don't forget, Guard has special rules for deployment of their Platoons. They act as 1 FOC until they hit the board.

Not using platoons, using veterans, Using the kasrkin models as skitarri. the grey knight HQ will be valeria she's a stand in explorator and the terminators are secutors.

[Chris Copeland]

i think this only applies to dedicated transports but yes also things like Al'Rahaem have to outflank :)

The key is the rule about dedicated transports and their corresponding unit counting as one unit. You mix that with part of that one unit being required to start in reserve and you get an army that can start entirely in reserve.

Of course, the dedicated transports in question must have a rule that requires them to start in reserve. I know of two dedicated transports that MUST start in reserve: Mycetic Spores and Drop Pods. Are there any others?

[Melon-neko]

The key is the rule about dedicated transports and their corresponding unit counting as one unit. You mix that with part of that one unit being required to start in reserve and you get an army that can start entirely in reserve.

Of course, the dedicated transports in question must have a rule that requires them to start in reserve. I know of two dedicated transports that MUST start in reserve: Mycetic Spores and Drop Pods. Are there any others?

night scythes for the necrons. can't think of any others (not including FW)

The problem with all reserved army is that, unless they are drop pods or some other unit that comes into play the first turn, you will lose due to the "If you don't have any models in play at the end of a game turn, you lose" rule ^^

So marines can go all reserve, but not anyone else (Except daemons of course)...which figures ^^

[Wolfshade]

Very succinct Cope :)

[Thanatos_elNyx]

Yeah you can but, iirc, if you end a turn with nothing on the table you auto-lose the game.

[Wolfshade]

If its a full reserve drop pod army, half always arrives at the start of turn 1 without it being rolled for

[Brandoncbaker]

The Stormraven is not a dedicated transport,it is a heavy support so does not count under this ruling

[kjolnir]

There's the sticking point that if all of your army is off the table at the end of a game turn, the other guy wins.

So, don't reserve everything.

While I hope this is poorly written and only meant to apply to units that are destroyed, not those in reserve, there's literally no telling.

[BS FADE]

Isn't there still a choice to embark and have a unit disembarked from there dedicated transport during deployment?

The drop pod has to come in from reserve right. A unit embarked on said drop pod has to come in from reserve as well. They for all purposes count as one unit, which makes sense because otherwise you have this funny happening of a drop pod hitting the ground followed later by a bunch of space marines falling from the sky. Or better yet a bunch of space marines acting all badass landing on their feet only to have a drop pod crush them.

But back to the point. YOU choose to embark them during deployment. There is no rule that says a unit starts the game embarked in a dedicated transport they bought (I think Tyranids where FAQ to be different, but I stopped caring about Tyranids awhile ago). In fact the rule on p.121 of the new BRB says you have to declare your embarking a unit. This is a choice.

You are choosing to embark the unit which then forces them to be in reserve. You are not forced to put them in the drop pod by any rule, so you are not forced to keep them in reserve. Which to me means they count for numbers you choose to put in reserve when you're dividing up your army.

You can say well they count as one unit because of what the book says about units with they're dedicated transports, but I don’t see how that factors in. It doesn't say that one units rules supersede another’s. What makes you think that the drop pod passes its reserve obligation on to the unit, if the unit was not obligated to be embarked?

From what I see everyone pro this working is simply saying you have one total unit, drop pod and idk tact squad, that doesn’t count for your reserve unit counts because they have to be in reserve because they have them embarked. Okay how about this than.

If that’s how it works I could say the same thing about flyer transports, the only difference I see is the Pod has only one option to have something embarked. If I where to choose to have a unit embarked, they both would have to start in reserve. The flyer has to be off the table because it’s a flyer and the unit has to be off the table because it’s embarked on the flyer forcing it be in reserve. This like embarking on a drop pod under the general consensus would be covered under the same rules, but would count as two units that don't count instead of 1 because they have to be in reserve.

I choose to put them in a Drop Pod is no different than saying I choose to put them in a transport flyer for purposes of deployment, because the end result is the same. You have a group of units that either count as one or two units that have to be in reserve because of your choices. The choosing is what makes me question people saying drop pods and their units don’t count.





Don't confuse this with me indorsing the new reserve rules. I actually hate them, especially the part where you can't assault for any reason, which pretty much kills Genestealer outflanking. But GW has back themselves into a corner by continually upping the moment, in a game that hasn’t had its table size changed to accommodate.

[xilton]

There's another thread somewhere about this I saw earlier on how reserves will work and they were hammering at it pretty good. Might want to check it out.

[Chris Copeland]

The short answer is that this works for Drop Pods and not for other transports because DPs are dedicated transports. You will have to count up non dedicated transports and other units on a unit by unit basis. You don't have to do that with non dedicated transports.

It is clear that I don't have to separate my troops from their pods because of the dedicated transport rule. There is nothing that forces me to separate my troops from their pods. Those units don't count toward the total because of the rule about units that start in reserve.

I could put my troops in a Rhino. Rhino+troops=1 unit. If I had three of those I could keep two in reserve and field one. Troop+Stormraven=2 units... you start getting into the math where someone is going to have to start on the table. Cheers...

PS BC, I can kind of see your reasoning but I'm afraid that, in light of the rules so clearly laid out in the BRB, that it just doesn't stand up. Cheers!

[BS FADE]

I keep getting hung up on the "Players can choose to put ...."

Things that have to be put in reserve don’t count I understand that. But nothing in the dedicated transport rules say anything about embarking changes the fact that you choose to put them there as a part of your deployment. It now counts as one unit, but nothing says you ignore the fact you chose to embark the squad and now can ignore them for reserved units. 40k is stuck in a permissive system.

The rule declaring them as one unit for deployment purposes is from what I understand, clarifying that a unit and its dedicated transports count as one for the number of units you put in reserve. It's not talking about what you ignore.

Simply put I see a drop pod has to go in reserve, but I see you choose to embark the squad. Just like how I see a flyer has to be in reserve, but you choose to embark a squad.

Regardless of the counting purposes for half your forces, both these situations have things that have to be put in reserve and then have units that tag along that can’t be deployed on the table. And if the rules work that way for drop pods, than it would work that way for flyer transports because your ignore the units that have to be in reserve. This still circles back to you ultimately choosing for them to be stuck in reserve though, not them truly being forced into reserves.

I honestly believe a FAQ, or I don’t know clearer rules, are the only way you can justify being able to ignore one means but not the other.

[Gloomfang]

As of right now the only pods that REQUIRE the troops be in the pods are the Nid's. For years people have been dropping empty drop pods on the table to block LOS or becasue they would rather put them on the table. If you can send down an empty pod then the unit in it is NOT forced to go into reserve.
Mycetic spores can NOT be sent down empty. The troops are FORCED to be in the pod.
You can't say one game that units have to be in the pod and then put them on the table the next game and send the pods down empty.
Those are the rules. Sorry you don't like them.
Nids can't Null depoly either now as we don't have drop pod assault and autolose turn 1.

[BS FADE]

I remembered reading that stupid ruling for tyranids, I just didnt feel like going back to GWs site until they send me my dam rule book.

It came out the same time they said bug independent characters couldnt attach to squads in pods right?

[Gloomfang]

I remembered reading that stupid ruling for tyranids, I just didnt feel like going back to GWs site until they send me my dam rule book.

It came out the same time they said bug independent characters couldnt attach to squads in pods right?

Yes. Until them we were sending down empty pods with venomcannons to block fire lanes (like people do with SM drop pods). The fluff said that the troops are grown inside the pods on the way down so the made the rules so we can't add primes to units in spore pods.

And I don't know why people are talking about this at all. Lets look at the FAQ for Space Marines.

Q: Can you use a drop pod on its own with no squad inside?
A: Yes you can.

There. Done. The drop pods do not count towards the total units in reserve, but as they can be sent down empty the squad inside does becasue they are not forced to stay in the drop pod.

So if you want to drop pod in 3 units, you need 3 units on the table. Not for the 3 drop pods, but for the squads that are in them.

[kjolnir]

I keep getting hung up on the "Players can choose to put ...."

Things that have to be put in reserve don’t count I understand that. But nothing in the dedicated transport rules say anything about embarking changes the fact that you choose to put them there as a part of your deployment. It now counts as one unit, but nothing says you ignore the fact you chose to embark the squad and now can ignore them for reserved units. 40k is stuck in a permissive system.

Huh?

Drop pods taken as dedicated transports means your unit is with them when it deploys. Which means it is in Reserves.

If you're referencing the "choice" players made to assault with an empty Drop Pod or not...well...that's a bit of a stretch IMO. That's some pretty big logic kung fu. A plain, reasonable reading of the rule would conclude that a unit held is reserve by virtue of its Dedicated Transport does not count against the 50% you are allowed.

[Gloomfang]

If you're referencing the "choice" players made to assault with an empty Drop Pod or not...well...that's a bit of a stretch IMO. That's some pretty big logic kung fu. A plain, reasonable reading of the rule would conclude that a unit held is reserve by virtue of its Dedicated Transport does not count against the 50% you are allowed.

That is great news then. That means that my genestealers that I chose to outflank don't count either. Or my Ymgarls (yes they can actully start on the table, its not required that they be dorment).

Until there is a FAQ that says squads must deploy with thier drop pod (like it states for mycetic spores) they are not forced to start in reserves.

There is no such thing as Null Depolyment anymore. Sorry.

[BS FADE]

Huh?

Drop pods taken as dedicated transports means your unit is with them when it deploys. Which means it is in Reserves.

If you're referencing the "choice" players made to assault with an empty Drop Pod or not...well...that's a bit of a stretch IMO. That's some pretty big logic kung fu. A plain, reasonable reading of the rule would conclude that a unit held is reserve by virtue of its Dedicated Transport does not count against the 50% you are allowed.



Not true, if it was i would have kept quiet. You have to declare your starting embarked or disembarked with your own dedacted transports at the beinging of the game. You choose, not you are.

If you can find something that says otherwise that would add to this conversation a lot.

[Gloomfang]

Not true, if it was i would have kept quiet. You have to declare your starting embarked or disembarked with your own dedacted transports at the beinging of the game. You choose, not you are.

If you can find something that says otherwise that would add to this conversation a lot.

The issue is the rule in question is a bit vauge (and needs a FAQ fast). Take the following army for example:

1 squad in Razorback(Dedicated)
1 squad in Landraider (Non-Dedicated)
1 Dev Squad
1 squad in drop pod (Dedicated)
1 StormTalon
1 Assualt squad with jump packs.

Ok. The person decides that he is going to not put his squad in the razorback. The Stormtalon is a flyer and must start in reserve. The drop pod and squad is in reserve.

The person is debating putting the land raider in reserve, but can he?

Well the squad and razorback are deploied on the table sepratly, but count as one unit for calculating reserves.
The Talon doesn't count because it is forced to.
The drop pod is forced to, but not the squad. However they count as one unit so they are in reserve.
1 assault unit with jump packs in reserve so they can deepstrike.
Dev Squad on the table.

So we have unit in 1 reserve and 2 units on the table.

Now the land raider is NOT a dedicated transport. So it counts as one and the squad in it counts as one.
So now trying to put the land raider with squad in reserve will put you at 3 units in reserve and 2 units on the table.

You can not reserve both the land raider and squad in it with this list. You need one more unit on the table.

EDIT: Got trapped in my own logic there... I guess that the squad does count as reserved for free. If the unit deploys on the table and not in the drop pod they still count as one unit and that unit does not count towards the total of units either on the board OR in reserves. The only issue is the 50% of nothing (as technically there is nothing in reserves OR on the table) for calculating the amout of units that can be in reserves.

Consider my objection taken back.

[kjolnir]

That is great news then. That means that my genestealers that I chose to outflank don't count either. Or my Ymgarls (yes they can actully start on the table, its not required that they be dorment).

Until there is a FAQ that says squads must deploy with thier drop pod (like it states for mycetic spores) they are not forced to start in reserves.

There is no such thing as Null Depolyment anymore. Sorry.

Don't apologize to me, I didn't null deploy anyway.

I just think it's a huge stretch absent of logic to conclude that deploying something with its Reserved dedicated transport is a "choice" that counts towards the 50% reserve cap.

The default non-choice would be to deploy WITH the transport. It is contrary to nominative thinking that a unit must "choose" to deploy with it's dedicated transport. If no choice at all is made, then what happens? Does the unit fail to come on the table? Or does it come on the table inside its dedicated transport?

I contend that a player must choose to NOT deploy with the dedicated transport, or else the unit defaults to the transport in the absence of choice. The dispositive choice is to NOT deploy with the dedicated transport. The nominative, default state is inside the transport. And thus, that unit would not count.

[Gloomfang]

I just did out the math in my last post and found the error in my thinking. The issue is the fact that the squad inside the drop pod ceases to exist in the math. If you look at my example where the player needed one more unit on the table to put the land raider in reserves I realized that just putting the squad from the drop pod onto the table would not allow him to do it. While there would physicaly be anouther unit on the table, it does not count as being out of reserves or in reserves. It stops existing in that caculation.

At least I am man enough to realize when I get something wrong and admit it.

[Maine]

1. A unit embarked in a dedicated transport counts as 1 unit. Since this can only happen by choice, the fact that it is a choice made by the player changes nothing about the rule - the rule only occurs because a choice is made. Thus, a squad in a Drop Pod is one unit.

2. Drop Pods must be held in Reserve.
2a. Units in Drop Pods must be held in Reserve. They are one unit, because the player chose to embark them.

3. Units that must be held in Reserve are not counted toward the maximum Reserve force.
3a. The Squad must be held in Reserve (with the Pod) because the player chose to embark the unit during deployment, which made it a single Unit, and thus does not count towards the maximum Reserve force.

[Chris Copeland]

Gllomfang, I had a whole long response half composed in my head and I was ready to write it. Then I came to this. I am impressed. In this age of internet anonymity it is infrequent to find anyone who will man up and change their position in a gentlemanly way. I am impressed, sir! +10 internetz for you!
Cope


I just did out the math in my last post and found the error in my thinking. The issue is the fact that the squad inside the drop pod ceases to exist in the math. If you look at my example where the player needed one more unit on the table to put the land raider in reserves I realized that just putting the squad from the drop pod onto the table would not allow him to do it. While there would physicaly be anouther unit on the table, it does not count as being out of reserves or in reserves. It stops existing in that caculation.

At least I am man enough to realize when I get something wrong and admit it.

[Chris Copeland]

Maine, I thought that I'd been succinct. I've got nothing on you! Kudos. You have carried the day with your brevity and succinctness. I think this whole argument can be put to bed after your perfect post! I really like how you point out that Marines in their Drop Pods are the default state and that a player needs to make choices to change that default state! Cope


1. A unit embarked in a dedicated transport counts as 1 unit. Since this can only happen by choice, the fact that it is a choice made by the player changes nothing about the rule - the rule only occurs because a choice is made. Thus, a squad in a Drop Pod is one unit.

2. Drop Pods must be held in Reserve.
2a. Units in Drop Pods must be held in Reserve. They are one unit, because the player chose to embark them.

3. Units that must be held in Reserve are not counted toward the maximum Reserve force.
3a. The Squad must be held in Reserve (with the Pod) because the player chose to embark the unit during deployment, which made it a single Unit, and thus does not count towards the maximum Reserve force.

[Chris Copeland]

Nids can't Null depoly either now as we don't have drop pod assault and autolose turn 1.

I am also a Nid player. We can start armies fully in reserve but we take the chance of auto losing. I'm still going to do it though! It'll be fun!

[The AKH]

I am also a Nid player. We can start armies fully in reserve but we take the chance of auto losing. I'm still going to do it though! It'll be fun!

To be honest, even in a tourney setting, I wouldn't make my opponent scrub a game just because his entire army was still in reserve at the end of turn 1.

[Gloomfang]

I am also a Nid player. We can start armies fully in reserve but we take the chance of auto losing. I'm still going to do it though! It'll be fun!

If you do a real full reserve list you autolose turn 1. You don't start rolling for reserves till turn 2. There are only 2 units that have to be reserved are spores and lictors. Everything else is optional. Ymgarl's included (check the codex). FMC are not Flyers and as such so not have to start in reserves.

[Chris Copeland]

Oops. Yeah. You are right. A fully spore-podded army won't work. The closest I could get would be a Hive Tyrant (for reserve acceleration) and his Tyrant Guard (to keep him alive) on the table at the beginning of the game and spore-pod everything else in...

[Gloomfang]

Gllomfang, I had a whole long response half composed in my head and I was ready to write it. Then I came to this. I am impressed. In this age of internet anonymity it is infrequent to find anyone who will man up and change their position in a gentlemanly way. I am impressed, sir! +10 internetz for you!
Cope

Not a problem. I realized the answer was not with the drop pod, but with the razorback.:D

10 man squad with a dedicated razor back transport:

5 man squad in the razorback in reserves with the other 5 on the table was still a unit in reserve.
10 man squad on the table and razor back in reserve was still a unit in reserve.

Otherwise that meant that it was possible for part of a unit to be on the table offsetting the rest of the unit in reserves.

So the logic went "Is part of the unit in reserves?" if yes the unit is in reserves.
The next question was" Does that unit HAVE to be in reserves?" and with drop pods the answer is yes. If the unit is the forced to be in reserves then no part of the unit counts towards being on the table OR in reserves.

Otherwise you end up deploying the squad on the table and getting another unit into normal reserves that you shouldn't. Like in my land raider example above.

The system breaks.:eek:

[rle68]

i havent made my mind up entirely about this but not one of you has made mention of drop pod assault.. if i missed it scuse my blindness ( wolfshade pointed out drop pod assault on page one )

even if you had all of your drop pods in reserve drop pods assault half of them must be dropped on turn 1 this is codex not rulebook...sm codex page 69 is one example

based on this yes you could put all of your army in drop pods but half of it is coming out turn 1 no matter what

guess im not following the logic on how they can auto lose turn 1

and as long as i have played this game dex trumps rule book all day every day.. if the faq says something else then thats another issue read the faq on sm no mention of drop pod assault not still being valid

[The AKH]

Nobody's doubting the validity of Drop Pod Assault... as it stands, though, a Drop Pod army is the only army that can have all its units in reserve at the beginning of the game. This is because of the fact that half the army will drop in on turn 1.

[rle68]

Nobody's doubting the validity of Drop Pod Assault... as it stands, though, a Drop Pod army is the only army that can have all its units in reserve at the beginning of the game. This is because of the fact that half the army will drop in on turn 1.

it took 4 now 5 pages to figure that out? then the talk of auto losing.. seems kinda silly to me

[Gloomfang]

and as long as i have played this game dex trumps rule book all day every day.. if the faq says something else then thats another issue read the faq on sm no mention of drop pod assault not still being valid

The talk about 1st turn loosing was about the Nids trying to use a Null Deployment list. If you try it with Nids you auto-lose turn 1. Not SM. The whole reason Nids auto-lose is because we don't have drop pod assault.

Comparing different drop pod rules: Mycetic spores and real drop pods.

[chancethunderfist]

Check page 36, second paragraph.

[Chris Copeland]

Chance, I think we've covered this one pretty well. Space Marine with Drop Pods can go for a complete null-deployment. They are amongst the few armies that can...

[Lerra]

as it stands, though, a Drop Pod army is the only army that can have all its units in reserve at the beginning of the game.

Don't forget Chaos Daemons.

[Anggul]

The short answer is that this works for Drop Pods and not for other transports because DPs are dedicated transports. You will have to count up non dedicated transports and other units on a unit by unit basis. You don't have to do that with non dedicated transports.

It is clear that I don't have to separate my troops from their pods because of the dedicated transport rule. There is nothing that forces me to separate my troops from their pods. Those units don't count toward the total because of the rule about units that start in reserve.

As previously stated, Drop Pods don't state that the squad must start in them (bizarrely), so there's nothing stopping you from deploying the squads and having the Drop Pods come in empty. Only the Drop Pods follow the rule for having to start in Reserve, not the squad inside, so I'm pretty sure you have to deploy half of said squads.


I would still let anyone have all of their squads in their pods, because it makes sense and I'm not a douche, but I'm pretty sure that by RAW you can't.

[ragnarcissist]

a little off topic, but has anyone run an all drop pod list in 6th? and if so, is it a viable competitive option?

[Lerra]

a little off topic, but has anyone run an all drop pod list in 6th? and if so, is it a viable competitive option?

All-drop-pod armies are stronger in 6th than they were in 5th. It's not the strongest option out there, but it's very viable imo. The nice thing in 6th is that you can drop down, shoot things, get assaulted on your opponent's turn, and shoot things again via overwatch. And if you're Space Wolves, you can counter-attack, too. Drop Pod lists are also a good counter to some of the popular shooty armies in 6th, like Eldar/Tau or Eldar/Dark Eldar or IG/Tau.

[Chris Copeland]

As previously stated, Drop Pods don't state that the squad must start in them (bizarrely), so there's nothing stopping you from deploying the squads and having the Drop Pods come in empty. Only the Drop Pods follow the rule for having to start in Reserve, not the squad inside, so I'm pretty sure you have to deploy half of said squads.


I would still let anyone have all of their squads in their pods, because it makes sense and I'm not a douche, but I'm pretty sure that by RAW you can't.


Anggul, the RAW are clear: the troops with Drop Pods disappear from the equation and therefore none of them have to start on the board. The poster known as "Maine" said it all perfectly a while ago. Here is the recap:


Originally Posted by Maine
1. A unit embarked in a dedicated transport counts as 1 unit. Since this can only happen by choice, the fact that it is a choice made by the player changes nothing about the rule - the rule only occurs because a choice is made. Thus, a squad in a Drop Pod is one unit.

2. Drop Pods must be held in Reserve.
2a. Units in Drop Pods must be held in Reserve. They are one unit, because the player chose to embark them.

3. Units that must be held in Reserve are not counted toward the maximum Reserve force.
3a. The Squad must be held in Reserve (with the Pod) because the player chose to embark the unit during deployment, which made it a single Unit, and thus does not count towards the maximum Reserve force.

[thecactusman17]

You are indeed correct! However, there are some critical elements to keep in mind:

Your HQ selections DO NOT count towards your units not in reserve. They MUST start on the table unless they can buy a Drop Pod or similar dedicated transport that must start in reserve.

If your units somehow fail to deploy and you have no friendly models on the board at the end of game turn one, the game is over and you lose. No ifs, ands, or buts. This includes models that deep-strike mishap and models which are destroyed entirely as the result of Interceptor weapons or rules like "I've Been Expecting You" or "Warp Quake."

[incenerate101]

To clear up any misunderstanding the rule book states that a special rule is shared with the unit attached to the model with said special rule unless stated in the entry itself. Deep strike is shared with the unit. To clarify further rules say that units with jump packs cannot join units without jump packs therefore units without jump packs cannot deep strike, but in this instance a unit is in a transport with the deep strike special rule therefore the unit inside shares the drop pods deep strike rule until the unit disembarks.

Sorry for posting on this again but no one even mentioned the actual special rules involved so I thought I'd mention that bit of info :D

[olberon]

I dont know whats with all the fuzz around droppods is really pretty simple

1. units in droppods must start in reserve; even units like HQ - rule of thumb= unit+ droppod= reserve no matter what.

2. first turn you have you have to make an droppod assault move :

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods always enter play using the deep strike rules from the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a 'Drop Pod Assault'. Units making a Drop Pod
Assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod may not assault in the turn it arrives.


easy as pie to me.......

[Hordicant]

Yep, you can start the entire army in reserve if they are all in Drop Pods. Even characters can be attached to units before deployment and if they are in a Drop pod he rides in with them. Just don't forget the very important rule for Drop Pods from Space Marines:

- pg.69 Drop Pod Assault Drop Pods always enter play using the deep strike rules from the Mission Special Rules of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a 'Drop Pod Assault'. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of remaining drop pods is rolled for as normal.....

No choice there, they may be in reserve, but half of them have to come down turn 1. There is no 'may wait, they hit 1st turn no ifs, ands, or butts.

[Anggul]

1. A unit embarked in a dedicated transport counts as 1 unit. Since this can only happen by choice, the fact that it is a choice made by the player changes nothing about the rule - the rule only occurs because a choice is made. Thus, a squad in a Drop Pod is one unit.

But this is completely false logic. Yes, it occurs because a choice is made. The 50% reserves rule, however, forbids you from making the choice of having all of your squads in their dedicated transports, Drop Pod or otherwise, forcing you to leave half of them out of their pods.

[Archon Charybdis]

Anggul, that just doesn't follow. Nothing about the rule requires that you have units staying on the board if they're eligible to take a drop pod and hence be ruled out of the calculation for reserves. You're reading that into it. The pod and the squad embarked are one unit, and ignored for the purposes of reserves.

Further, I think everyone's looking at the Reserves section of the rules, but the Deep Strike rules cover this pretty explicitly to, "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked on them) are ignored" (pg. 36) There is no qualification with that-- you don't have to stop embarking models in drop pods once you get to half of your army.

1.) Up to half of an armies units may be held in reserves.

2.) Models automatically held in reserves are ignored for this calculation.

3.) Drop pods (and any models embarked on them) are automatically held in reserves.

4.) An army composed of drop pods and squads embarked upon them ignores all of it's units for the purposes of calculating reserves.

[Tynskel]

Daemons and Space Marines (in drop pods) can have full reserved lists. This works because they enter the board automatically on turn 1. Therefore (unless your opponent pwns them), they will have units on the board at the end of turn 1, and won't automatically lose.

[Anggul]

3.) Drop pods (and any models embarked on them) are automatically held in reserves.


The words I've put in bold are just incorrect. They become one unit when you embark them, yes, but you're only allowed to embark 50% of them in the first place so the other 50% can't possibly embark in their Drop Pods to then become automatically held in reserves, as otherwise it would be breaking the rule.

Basically, the rule is preventing you from putting them in the Drop Pods in the first place, thus preventing them from becoming one unit and all being forced into reserves.

[Tynskel]

dude, that's totally incorrect.
You are allowed to board your transport. And since this transport is required to be in reserve, they don't count toward the limit.


What you could try is this: put the drop pod in reserve, THEN reserve the squad. That squad now applies to the limits on reserves.

[Chris Copeland]

hey become one unit when you embark them, yes, but you're only allowed to embark 50% of them in the first place so the other 50% can't possibly embark in their Drop Pods to then become automatically held in reserves, as otherwise it would be breaking the rule.

Basically, the rule is preventing you from putting them in the Drop Pods in the first place, thus preventing them from becoming one unit and all being forced into reserves.


Sorry, Anggul. You seem to be alone on this one. Maine gave the best explanation. Here is how it works:


The Basic Rule Book says that up to 50% of your army can be held in reserve. Further, units that MUST start the game in reserve do not count toward this percentage.
Drop Pods MUST start in reserve.
On page 124 it says “A unit and it’s Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” That is a key point.
Thus, my unit of Marines and their Drop Pod are one unit. Full stop. Period. The Drop Pod is required to start in reserve.
There is NO rule that says I need to separate the two. There is no rule that says I need to break them up. There IS a rule that says “a unit and it’s Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” GW is not being ambiguous about this point at all. My Marines and their Drop Pod are a single unit.
Thus, they start in reserve. They have to. The Drop Pod's rule dictates that they do. The same goes for all of the unit’s that I choose to give Drop Pods to.


This doesn’t mean that putting troops in ANY dedicated transport gives you the choice to have them start in reserve. I could put Marines in a Rhino. That unit (again, one unit) could start in reserve or could be forced to start on the table. The same goes for putting Marines in a Land Raider. They could go in reserve or could be forced to start on the table. The 50% rule covers them nicely.

Anyhoo, I hope this helps. I don't think this is controversial anymore, this far into 6th. It seems that this got hammered out in the earliest days of playing. Cheers!

[Bean]

Yeah, gotta say I'm with Chris on this one.

Now, almost all null-deployment armies are out, no question, but the Drop Pod army remains in, and (frankly) that seems appropriate. It also, actually, seems intentional--not only do the rules he's referencing create that effect, I would bet money that that is precisely why they exist.

[xilton]

Same thing with a BA or GK all stormraven list. If your entire army can embark on transports that must start in reserve, and you choose to embark them, everything starts in reserve.

you can't. Storm ravens are not dedicated transports. the 50% rule applies to your units. For example, a GK army with 2 SRs 2 squads of pallies and an HQ. 1 of your storm ravens will be empty since you must have max 50% in reserve. you will have 1 squad on the table

[Sanguineone]

Doesn't the deep strike special rule allow you to place units in reserve to have a null deployment? I think it states in order to arrive by deep strike a unit MUST be held in reserve. Choice is irellivant as it's a tactic within the boundaries of the rules. The only thing is that you must tell your opponent which units you are deep striking which is really just a way of preventing the last min change of heart and walking your unit in from a board edge.
However the new auto lose rule if you have nothing on the board by the end of the turn would make a very short game if you have nothing on the table by turn one. Unfortunately not a lot arrives in the first turn and the rule has broken the 'pure' deep striking list. I've looked into this quite a bit as I was a big fan of the DOA Blood Angels list, and didn't really think using a drop pod fit with what I was trying to achieve. Therefore instead of using a drop pod I chose to roll with an Angels of Death army, that is Blood Angels and Dark Angels allies. The latter being comprised of Death Wing Terminators that arrive via Deep Strike on the first turn.

While writing this I took another quick look at the rules on Deep Strike and took a closer look at the section that covers working out how many units can be placed in reserve. It struck me as odd that if my reasoning was correct that you can choose to place all models with deep strike in reserve then why specify that units that don't have a choice but to deep strike aren't counted for the sake of how much you can deploy. It's this part of the rules that I think has caused the split between the 'they can' and the 'they can't ' schools of thought.
I started to doubt myself......... Then I remembered, not everything has the Deep Strike rule. These units can still be kept in reserve. See the following, the first can't be done the second can.


Jump Pack (deep strike reserve) - counts
Jump Pack (deep strike reserve) - counts
Tactical Squad (reserve)

This can't be done.

Drop pod (no choice but to Deep strike) -doesn't count
Drop pod (no choice but to Deep strike) - doesn't count
Tactical Squad (reserve) - counts

This I believe is within the boundaries of the rules.
You may note that I haven't stated if there was anything in the drop pods. The answer is yes, and I believe that this would still be within the boundaries if it contained a squad and an independent character as anything embarked in a transport that has no choice but to deep strike doesn't count for the 50% rule.
The same cannot be said sadly for the storm raven, as although it must start in reserve and has the deep strike rule it can chose to start on the board edge. Therefore if you want to do a null deployment you would be limited to one storm raven with a single unit embarked without an Independant Character attached or alternatively only the dreadnought. This would also be the case if the embarked models had deep strike in their rules as they are entering play via the deep strike of the vehicle not their own special rule.

In conclusion, you can still null deploy as long as all units have the deep strike rule. But unless you have something on the board by the end of turn 1 you lose.

[Learn2Eel]

From memory units from certain codices can be placed in Deep Strike regardless of mission special rules. As Reserves is a mission special rule, this means you can actually make units Deep Strike even above your limit - but they must deep strike. This only applies to Terminators from older codices IIRC.

[Sanguineone]

I'm totally with you on the terminator front, in addition in the BA dex under wargear - jump pack it states that they can be kept in reserve and arrive via Deep strike. I've cross checked this against the Dark Angels, Space Marines, and Space wolves dex and with the exception of the wolves Skyclaws and BA all others tell you to 'see mission special rules'.
I take this as meaning that sky claws and BA can do it regardless. Thoughts?

[Tynskel]

Blood Angels entry does not state 'always'. You have a 'choice' to reserve.

Terminator entry states when 'teleporting... always'. You have no 'choice' if the terminator is teleporting. They MUST be in reserves.

[Denzark]

I had it in my head that units that must start in reserve, do not count towards the total. That includes fliers. And as half your drop pods round up come in turn one anyway, they are not strictly coming in from reserve - you start rolling for reserves from turn 2 so anything already arrvied cannot strictly have been part of that resrve.

So the fact that everything is off table at the start of turn 1, doesn't mean all of said units are in reserve...

[Nabterayl]

I had it in my head that units that must start in reserve, do not count towards the total. That includes fliers.
True. As page 124 of the BRB says, "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so," and as page 80 says, "Flyers must begin the game as Reserves."


And as half your drop pods round up come in turn one anyway, they are not strictly coming in from reserve
They are still in Reserve. As the Space Marines codex puts it, "Drop Pods always enter play using the deep strike rules from the Mission Special Rules section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." Since Deep Strike specifies that you are in Reserve, they're in Reserve. What is different is not that they aren't in Reserve, but that they enter from Reserve at a weird time.


So the fact that everything is off table at the start of turn 1, doesn't mean all of said units are in reserve...
They are, but that's okay for drop pods. As page 124 says, "likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." Since a game turn is defined as one turn for each player (page 9), at least one drop pod will always hit the table before the end of game turn one (although it is of course theoretically possible for the first wave of a drop pod assault to be annihilated in their own turn, in which case the SM player would still lose unless he had other models on the table).

[Daemonette666]

GW has made an army that if you do not take allies, every model has to go into reserve, and half deep strikes on the first turn, with the rest turning up via deep strike in the later turns- Codex daemons.

Since the drop pod assault rules means that half of the drop pods deep strike on the first turn, and the rest arrive randomly in the follow up turns, with the rest of the reserve units like fliers, you have a good example of how GW allow for your drop pod army to be used in an all reserve army.

As long as some of your forces arrive via deep striking and surviving until the beginning of YOUR next turn of the game, then you can get the rest down via reserves in later turns. Your only risk is that your opponent destroys all of your units that are currently deployed before the start of your next turn. A hard task to do, but if they can do this, then they have achieved a very fast victory. Just deploy one unit where the enemy will not be able to destroy them, and you can keep bringing your forces in the following turns.

[sludig]

ok so we have decided that an all drop pod army is viable. Now, is the auto loose on any game turn? If is is hope you go first.

[Daemonette666]

ok so we have decided that an all drop pod army is viable. Now, is the auto loose on any game turn? If is is hope you go first.



If that were the case, Codex Daemon players who use a daemon only army with no allies are "Forced" to go first, and if your opponent gets first turn or steals it, you auto lose the game because you will have no forces deployed by the end of the first players turn? You would be seeing daemon players selling their armies in droves as their codex rules specifically state that the whole army must deploy in reserves and half the army arrives via deep strike in the first turn (on the Daemon players turn, not their opponents turn).

GW have on page 122 of the 6th edition rule book answered your question. It states that "Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no more models on the battle field, his opponent automatically wins." The term GAME TURN is used not player turn. This means both players must have their turn before the victory condition comes into effect.

[Sainhann]

ok so we have decided that an all drop pod army is viable. Now, is the auto loose on any game turn? If is is hope you go first.

Actually I think you can go 2nd since I consider that both players must take their phases.

But while yes you can run with an all Drop Pod army you will have to put something onto the table on your first turn and hope that it is still alive at the end of both players turns.

So going 2nd this would work quite well since your unit would be still alive if there are no mishaps.

I think some are trying to come up with ways so that they can wait until turn 4 or 5 before having to put something onto the table.

Then they come down and cause havoc and garner kill points etc...

Which is probably why GW put in the rule about having to have something on the table at the end of a turn or you lose.

Myself since I run with nearly 190 models for Imperial Guard and more for Orks I would love to have you wait until late in the game to bring your Drop Pods down.

Since I will be spending my time in covering the tabetop with my units so that you will have a limited area to drop into.

Remember there are rules on where and how close you can drop to enemy units.

[Sanguineone]

Blood Angels entry does not state 'always'. You have a 'choice' to reserve.

Terminator entry states when 'teleporting... always'. You have no 'choice' if the terminator is teleporting. They MUST be in reserves.

So they Can or they Can't?

[Nabterayl]

So they Can or they Can't?
Terminators, specifically, can override the Reserve limit. This is not because they are Deep Striking, nor because they are teleporting, but because the codex specifies that "They may always start the game in reserve." So any terminators that your Reserve limit would normally place on the board may be whisked off into Reserve.

[Tynskel]

just remember, they override the reserve limit, but must deep strike.

[Sanguineone]

So would scouts be the same as they are placed after both sides deploy?

[Daemonette666]

If you want to use the Outflank option available to units with the Infiltrate and Scout special rule, then Yes. These go into reserve as per the description for outflank on page 40 of the rule book. You have to decide to keep the models in reserve before your finish setting up your models, and they arrive on a flank determined by the dice roll, on the turn they arrive. This is just like the Terminators, where you could deploy them on the table or elect to reserve them.

[Nabterayl]

So would scouts be the same as they are placed after both sides deploy?

I think you mean infiltrators - scouts are placed during deployment, and then get a move after infiltrators are placed.

If you mean infiltrators, you'll see that the Infiltrate special rule still describes them as deployed, not placed in Reserve, so units you intend to infiltrate do not count towards your Reserve limit. If you use the Infiltrate special rule to Outflank, then they are in Reserve and do count towards your Reserve limit, as Daemonette666 correctly describes.

[Sanguineone]

Thanks for that, I meant space marine scouts via infiltration.
The aim for me is to begin the game with nothing on the table at the initial deployment phase. Descent of Angels in 5th edition captured the feel of the Blood Angels from the books. Just like Dark Eldar are supposed to raid.
The aim is to get the majority of deep striking units in on turn 2 like the re roll for descent used to, but this new editions 'reserves' rule is stopping that.

So Scouts infiltrating are in but don't count to 50/50

Terminators via deep strike also don't count to 50/50

Anything in a drop pod doesn't count to 50/50

Storm ravens don't count to 50/50 but will probably have to be empty.........I have 3.

Doesn't leave much hope for jump packs starting the game off the board unless there are a load of tactical squads which in a BA army can essentially be replaced by jump infantry.

Looks like I'm going to have to take terminators.......
Scouts......
Empty storm ravens.......
One jump pack assault squad...... (with no jump pack HQ) in Deep Strike reserve....
Death wing terminators with Belial in deep strike reserve taking the death wing assault option.......
Heck if I could drop the scouts without getting rid of the two troop minimum I would for a true 'null' deployment.
Seems like 6th is the domain of the terminator.
Hopefully when the Dark Angels codex arrives we will still have a true 'null deployment' list in the form of the Death Wing...................hopefully.

[sfshilo]

I’ve recently heard it suggested that I’m going to have to shelve my Drop Pod Space Marine army. I’ve heard arguments that, even with a Drop Pod army, I can’t start entirely in reserve.

To put it mildly, I disagree. I think GW is pretty clear on this one, although they did leave it just ambiguous enough to cause a bunch of arguments. Here is why you can place your Drop Pod Army fully in reserve:



The Basic Rule Book says that up to 50% of your army can be held in reserve. Further, units that MUST start the game in reserve do not count toward this percentage.
Drop Pods MUST start in reserve.
On page 124 it says “A unit and it’s Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” That is a key point.
Thus, my unit of Marines and their Drop Pod are one unit. Full stop. Period. The Drop Pod is required to start in reserve.
There is NO rule that says I need to separate the two. There is no rule that says I need to break them up. There IS a rule that says “a unit and it’s Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.” GW is not being ambiguous about this point at all. My Marines and their Drop Pod are a single unit.
Thus, they start in reserve. They have to. The Drop Pod's rule dictates that they do. The same goes for all of the unit’s that I choose to give Drop Pods to.


I will close with this: this doesn’t mean that putting troops in ANY dedicated transport gives you the choice to have them start in reserve. I could put Marines in a Rhino. That unit (again, one unit) could start in reserve or could be forced to start on the table. The same goes for putting Marines in a Land Raider. They could go in reserve or could be forced to start on the table. The 50% rule covers them nicely.

That covers Rules as Written. Clearly, I think that Rules as Intended (the spirit of the rules) also means that my Drop Pod army can start fully in reserve. However, I don’t feel that I need to turn to RAI since I think that RAW covers this quite nicely.

Cheers and good gaming to all. Copeland

The faq doesn't say dedicated transport it says transport. So yes, my guard army can reserve 100% in valk/vendetta.

[Nabterayl]

The faq doesn't say dedicated transport it says transport. So yes, my guard army can reserve 100% in valk/vendetta.
Nobody argues otherwise, that I know of. But unless you have a way to get a model on the table by the end of the first game turn, you'll lose.