Dreadknights Competitive in 6th?

[Image]

So, I've been musing about the changes we can expect from army lists in 6th edition and it seems to me that Monstrous Creatures got a pretty significant buff with the new rules. Due to Hull Points and lack of Armour Saves, I feel that Dreadnoughts may not be as worthwhile for most armies, with their only real protection being the range on their weapons.

With a focus on mobility and durability, I came to think that the Dreadknight fills that role nicely and is a denial unit (while in some missions is even a scoring unit!). This beast has an incredibly steep cost in points, but is it going to be competitive now? If so, what would you consider one of the most competitive builds for it?

[DarkLink]

Dreadknights are already useable in a competitive setting. They're just tricky, because they're very fragile.

Using them effectively is simple, but tricky to pull off. You need to be very aggressive with them, but just cautious enough that they don't die before doing anything.

First off, upgrades:
Personal Teleporter is a must. The Dreadknight's guns kind of suck, so you have to make assault at some point, or at least be able to threaten to do so, otherwise your opponent will just ignore it and shoot it to death at his leisure.

The CC upgrades are worthless. With 6th, the Dreadknight is str 10 and 4 attacks from 2CCW, and gets to reroll the pen dice. Both upgrades cause you to lose the bonus attack, and the Greatsword causes you to lose str 10. Both "upgrades" are a complete waste of points. The sword looks pretty sick, though.

As for the guns, the psilencer, like its other incarnation, is useless. A meager 12 str 4 shots is pretty sad. Not worth the points.

Both the Psycannon and Incinerator are good, but your model is too expensive to really justify buying both I think. It's one or the other, and the Incinerator ignores cover so it's my choice.

So, buy a PT and either an Incinerator or Psycannon.



The Teleporter allows you to rapidly redeploy anywhere it happens to be inconvenient for your opponent. Standard practice for me is to shunt behind my opponent's lines, away from anything that can kill me in assault/shoot me to death easily. Then just let loose.

The trick to using the Dreadknight is keeping him alive. Don't go for anything that can kill him in CC, and don't go near anything that can kill him in one round of shooting. Stay away from plasma and melta, but close enough your opponent has to look over his shoulder. Present other, more tempting targets for his lascannons and stuff, to draw fire. And keep your distance until the time is right.

If you shunt the turn before your main force is about to hit his lines, then your opponent has to worry about attacks on both fronts, and if you've placed him properly he'll have to devote a major effort to killing the Dreadknight. If you're too reckless, or don't follow the advice for keeping him alive, then he'll die without accomplishing anything.


Ultimately, Interceptors are probably better at doing this than the Dreadknight is. But the Dreadknight is cool, so whatever. I've used both. Interceptors are more competitive, but the Dreadknight works pretty well if you don't have all 300pts for a full Interceptor squad.


Now, though, you can Challenge characters to pick out Power Fists and the like, get cover from Ruins more easily, kill vehicles like nobody's business from the str 10+hitting on 3's, and have a few other nice little rules like Fear.

[Image]

DarkLink, you've pretty much verified what I've considered a Dreadknight's role now. Specifically, I like adding a Dreadknight to a regular SM list and taking a Storm Raven for fast attack instead of the Interceptors.

The appearance of the Sword is really the only part that I find compelling about it. I was beginning to wonder if a Dreadknight vanilla was the best way to bring it, but I'm pleased to see that some upgrades are worthwhile. In fact, I thought it'd be a shame to spend so much on a single model to only bring it's base statline.

Compared to a Dreadnought, however, how do you guys feel a Dreadknight compares?

[DarkLink]

Totally different thing, the only comparison is that they take up the same slot. But I don't think people will be maxing out psyrifle dreads anymore, so that removes that competition.

[Quaade]

The CC upgrades are worthless. With 6th, the Dreadknight is str 10 and 4 attacks from 2CCW, and gets to reroll the pen dice. Both upgrades cause you to lose the bonus attack, and the Greatsword causes you to lose str 10. Both "upgrades" are a complete waste of points. The sword looks pretty sick, though.


Not entirely true, in order to use Smash you have to halve your numbers of attacks before you get to strike at Str 10 and reroll armour pen.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I want to attach a Meltabomb to a Dreadknight. :D

[DarkLink]

Not entirely true, in order to use Smash you have to halve your numbers of attacks before you get to strike at Str 10 and reroll armour pen.

MCs already reroll armor pen, I believe. They got that instead of their 2d6. And aside from that, either hitting at half your attacks or hitting at str 6 is stricktly worse than hitting with a bonus attack from your second ccw and always hitting at str 10, and still getting the reroll for penetrating, and not spending 25pts. And make no mistake, spending 25 pts to lose attacks, lose strength, and only really gain rerolls to hit is not even close to worth it, no matter how cool looking the sword is.

The hammer suffers a similar problem. I'm pretty sure you still lose your bonus attack if you take it, and all you gain is the concussive rule. Which is nice, but not worth 10pts and losing your bonus attack. Heck, I don't even think it's worth 10pts anyways, not on such an already expensive model.

So, no. None of the cc upgrades are worth it, not even close.

[Defenestratus]

But I don't think people will be maxing out psyrifle dreads anymore,

Really? They seem to be one of the best things for taking out tanks now that all you have to do is glance three times.


MCs already reroll armor pen, I believe. They got that instead of their 2d6.

Nope. Gotta do a smash to reroll armor pen.

[DarkLink]

Ah, well, you'd have to smash for the extra str with the greatsword anyways, so still not worth it.

But psyrifle dreads drop as quickly as any other vehicle, and infantry based firepower will tear them up. Spending 1/3 of your points on dreadnoughts isn't likely to be a good path to victory, especially since your opponent won't be taking as many vehicles in general. So the dreadnoughts are less useful in the first place, and they're more fragile, and they're not particularly good anti-infantry.

[plawolf]

Well firstly, I think it's obvious that the DK has got a nice boost with the new rules.

I am waiting for the box set and mini-rule book as I won't be playing for a while yet, so does anyone know what a 'jumping MC' means rules wise? Is it similar to a flying MC in that it gets the vectored attack or does jumping MC mean something different?

If it does get vectored strike, that is another big boost. But even if it does, the DK can become a lot more useful.

I think the new wound allocation rules are going to give the DK and interceptors a very interesting new tactical dynamic. Most people are now going to be placing their special weapons guys at the back of the pack now, so being able to shunt right across the table and strike them from behind, where casualties are taking from those guys first (and exclusively if you get the distance perfect, which again, is easier as you can pre-measure everything now) could be massive.

In this context, the heavy psilencer could actually be worth it. Sure 12 Str4 shots into a 10 men squad isn't likely to do much real damage in 5th ed, but in 6th ed, when you just shunted behind the enemy lines and made sure those 12 shots all land on that squads' PF serg and 2 special/heavy weapons guys, well, that is certainly odds that could interest me.

With the new blast rules, the heavy psycannon also becomes a bit more interesting, but personally, I don't like scattering, so I think the stand out favorite is still going to be the Incinerator because of points and reliability.

Now, the DK is too big and too expensive to go sticking at max range and taking pot shots, to get your points' worth, you really need him to get stuck in in CC.

Personally, I feel you need to go all in with a shunting DK tactic. A simple DF is an annoyance and not much more. That is just not good enough for the kind of points you are paying. I would go with two DK, or a DK and an interceptor squad. That would be enough to open up a second front without taking up too much of your list.

Have a 10 men interceptor squad and split it so the hammer goes in one squad while both the special weapons go in the other.

Normally, a 5 men interceptor squad isn't too big of a threat, but if you back them up with a DK, well that's actually a lot of whoopass right there.

With such a set up, I would not even both with a weapons upgrade for the DK, just shoot them up with the 5 men interceptors to try and take a few guys off, and then just pile in. Challenge the fist serg with the DK and you are golden.

For the other 5 men interceptor squad, well, here again, psilencers actually becomes tempting because of the potential to 'snipe' high value models in a squad with high numbers of shots, and it being a free upgrade doesn't half help.

With all that being said, whether the DK becomes a common choice for GK lists is still quite questionable.

On the one hand, as has already been pointed out, the vehicle hull points and other nerfs has made psyrifle dreads less attractive, but on the other, the allies option actually opens up the door to bring in many many other units that may benefit a GK list far better than the new and improved DK.

It's not fluffy, but a Long Fang squad or two would certainly be a lot better than the new nerfed psyrifles. If that is too much cheese, an IG contingent pack full of lascannons and plasma/melta would more than address GK's lack of ranged and low AP firepower which even the most die hard fluff bunny would find hard to find fault with. And I am sure I am not the only person excited to be able to bring some new stormtalons into a GK list and maybe team that up with a stormraven.

Thus, I do not see the role of the DK changing much from what it is now - a fun gimmicky choice you make because you like the model or want to try something else. There are, and will be even more more points efficient and effective ways to build a GK list if all you want to do is maximize your chances of winning if that is your thing.

[DarkLink]

I wouldn't call the Dreadknight gimmicky, though I wouldn't call it competitive either. Interceptors, on the other hand, were badly underutilized in 5th, and I think they'll be much more popular in 6th.

[Loshkins]

I think you're wrong about the CC weapons, specifically the sword.

-A fist is replaced with either a sword or a hammer. So if you replace it with the sword you still have the other arm as a fist, so you get to pick which one to hit with in CC.
-A model with a great sword re-rolls to hit, to wound, and AP. That doesn't mean that only the sword attacks let you do that, simply a model with it.

So for an extra 25pts you get a model with 5 attacks on the charge re-rolling to hit, wound and AP, all at S10.

[DarkLink]

Did they change the rules for combining special weapons? Are greatswords and/or dccw specialist weapons?Because we know that 2 DCCW get the +1A, but the burden of proof is on you to prove you also get it with the greatsword. I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'm not going to spend $75 on a rulebook so I'm going off memory. Quote the rules to prove your point.




Even if you are right, frankly a reroll or two isn't worth that many points on a unit that is already that expensive. Dreadknights are too expensive and too fragile to frivolously spend points on. Making them slightly more killy doesn't protect them from meltaguns or rapid-firing plasma, which is ususally what kills them. The best upgrade in the world is useless if you don't live to use it.

You have to get a teleporter to be effective. You have to buy one gun to be a threat at range. But any points beyond that, and you're not really adding anything because your expensive model will die just as quickly. Spend those points on something more survivable.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Did they change the rules for combining special weapons? Are greatswords and/or dccw specialist weapons?Because we know that 2 DCCW get the +1A, but the burden of proof is on you to prove you also get it with the greatsword. I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but I'm not going to spend $75 on a rulebook so I'm going off memory. Quote the rules to prove your point.




Even if you are right, frankly a reroll or two isn't worth that many points on a unit that is already that expensive. Dreadknights are too expensive and too fragile to frivolously spend points on. Making them slightly more killy doesn't protect them from meltaguns or rapid-firing plasma, which is ususally what kills them. The best upgrade in the world is useless if you don't live to use it.

You have to get a teleporter to be effective. You have to buy one gun to be a threat at range. But any points beyond that, and you're not really adding anything because your expensive model will die just as quickly. Spend those points on something more survivable.
At work, but going from the top of my head at least I got the impression that you only need two weapons to get the additional attack from them.

After that, I also read the Specialist Weapon special rule as giving you +1A if you have two Specialist Weapons, not two of the same.

Will check once at home, but I'm sure someone will have an answer by then.

[Loshkins]

Neither weapon is specialist, the sword is melee/force. So you get the +1A. 25pts for re-roll on wounds and hits is pretty good, takes out the randomness of it - also lets you strike at regular initiative if you want to. Obviously you get the teleporter, and incinerator. Sure its a pricey build, but what in the GK codex isn't? Just keep him in reserve, then bring him in to put the hurt on units that are more isolated.

[xilton]

I don't think he gets that +1A having a fist and sword other then the charge bonus making it 4 attacks on the charge and not 5 (with 2 fists) and he will get to reroll at S10 AP2 like if using the sword but fist strength. This rule has been around for ages on anything. I doubt this changed and I didn't see anything about it. He will combine both weapons advantages in the same attacks making them S10 Ap 2 reroll hit, wounds and pens. In this case, the reroll for MC becomes obsolete using a sword since you already have it.

overall the NDK got a good boost in this version and is well worth the points. 2++ just got better, S10 in CC instead of 6, heavy psycannon effective vs vehicles now (for those that use them). I call these pretty good buffs for our big guy.

[Lemt]

Ah, well, you'd have to smash for the extra str with the greatsword anyways, so still not worth it.

But psyrifle dreads drop as quickly as any other vehicle, and infantry based firepower will tear them up. Spending 1/3 of your points on dreadnoughts isn't likely to be a good path to victory, especially since your opponent won't be taking as many vehicles in general. So the dreadnoughts are less useful in the first place, and they're more fragile, and they're not particularly good anti-infantry.

Infantry-based firepower will tear them up IF they get to your rear armor. And if they get to the rear armor fo your psyflemen you're doing it wrong.

[DarkLink]

Or you're playing deepstrikers or infiltrators or outflankers or jump infantry or fliers or any one of the other dozens of units in the game that can suddenly show up behind enemy lines one way or another. And now that people aren't going to be taking as many vehicles, you'll likely see more of these sorts of units.

Or you can just glance them to death the old fashioned way. Pretty easy now, with hullpoints. A couple psycannons will kill a dreadnought easily.

You can't argue that hullpoints didn't make vehicles quite a bit less survivable.



25pts for re-roll on wounds and hits is pretty good

When you're already hitting on 3' and wounding on 2's and auto-penning most vehicles in the game, and you're already ~250pts, and you've only got 4 wounds, an extra 25pts for a reroll you don't really need is a little questionable. Dreadknights die too quickly to spend extraneous points on them.