6th auto-hit weapons vs flyers.

[Lemt]

EDIT: Here are the results after several pages of discussion, with quotes of the relevant rules:
Auto-hit weapons can't hit Zooming Flyers unless they have the Skyfire special rule.
Auto-hit weapons on flyers can choose to use Skyfire each turn to be able to hit Zooming Flyers, but if they do then they can't hit non-flyer units unless they also have the Interceptor rule.
The Deathstrike Missile is a blast weapon according to the Errata, so it can never hit Zooming Flyers.

Page 81: "shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule)" (bold added for emphasis)
Page 81, top left: "Flyers can choose whether or not to use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each shooting phase. They don't have to use the Skyfire special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that turn are treated as having the Skyfire special rule."
Page 42: (SKYFIRE) "A model with this special rule (...) fires using it's normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at flyers (...) Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire Snap Shots against other targets."
Page 13: "any shooting attack that does not use a ballistic skill (...) cannot be "fired" as a Snap Shot" (quotation marks on "fired" direct from the rulebook).


Below is my original post, for legacy reasons


Take things like the Necron's Death Ray or the Eldar's D-Cannon. Both of these weapons don't roll to hit, but instead draw a line and automatically hit any models it touches. So, can you use these weapons against zooming flyers?
I've only just read the 6th edition rulebook and may be missing something, but I don't see why not (probably I just skipped some important rule).

[kjolnir]

Take things like the Necron's Death Ray or the Eldar's D-Cannon. Both of these weapons don't roll to hit, but instead draw a line and automatically hit any models it touches. So, can you use these weapons against zooming flyers?
I've only just read the 6th edition rulebook and may be missing something, but I don't see why not (probably I just skipped some important rule).

Good question. Template weapons are out, but these really aren't template weapons, just lines that are 1mm wide.

If you roll to hit with anything, you'd resolve using the snap shot rules, but otherwise, I can't really see why auto-hit stuff doesn't hit them. Vector Strikes auto-hit other flyers after all.

[Nemo]

Against zooming flyers, you can only take Snap Shots. The Snap Shots rule states that weapons that do not roll to hit cannot take Snap Shots. As in, cannot be fired if they would be fired as Snap Shots.

-Kristian

[kjolnir]

Against zooming flyers, you can only take Snap Shots. The Snap Shots rule states that weapons that do not roll to hit cannot take Snap Shots. As in, cannot be fired if they would be fired as Snap Shots.

-Kristian

So then the question becomes not one of whether or not it auto-hits, but whether or not it is a shooting attack?

Got it.

So shooting attacks that do not roll to hit, regardless of whether or not they use a template, cannot target Swooping/Zooming Flyers.

Vector Strike is still legal, however, since the rules specifically mention it as being a legal attack, despite the fact that it counts as a shooting attack for the purposes of determining how many shooting attacks you get in the shooting phase.

Also, what about Psychic shooting attacks that auto-hit?

[JamesP]

Against zooming flyers, you can only take Snap Shots. The Snap Shots rule states that weapons that do not roll to hit cannot take Snap Shots. As in, cannot be fired if they would be fired as Snap Shots.

-Kristian

Does that apply to a Doomscythe that uses its ability to have the Skyfire rule when firing its weapons?

On page 81, at the top of the left-hand column, it says that you can only take Snap Shots against Zooming flyers, as you say, unless you have the Skyfire rule. It also says, as another posted noted, that you can never use Template, Blast or Large Blast weapons against Zooming flyers.

Also on page 81, at the top of the right-hand column, it says that a flyer can choose to use the Skyfire rule for its weapons when it shoots them.

So that would mean that a Doomscythe could use the Skyfire rule to fire at a Zooming flyer using its normal BS and not the Snap Shot process.

In such circumstances, could it fire its Death Ray at a Zooming flyer as:

- it can use the Skyfire rule to allow it to fire using its normal BS rather than Snap Shots;

- only Snap Shots prohibit the use of weapons that do not roll to hit and the Doomscythe is using its normal BS, and not Snap Shots; and

- while you cannot use Template, Blast or Large Blast weapons against a Zooming flyer, the Death Ray is none of these.

So what do you think? I freely admit that, as a Necron player, I like the idea of a Death Ray lashing out and frying some Storm Ravens/ Talons but I'd be equally happy just shocking them out of the sky with Tesla.

I also admit that I hate writing 'zooming'. GW, why couldn't you have thought of another name for this mechanic?!

[kjolnir]

Does that apply to a Doomscythe that uses its ability to have the Skyfire rule when firing its weapons?

Anything with Skyfire can shoot at a Swooping/Zooming Flyer as if it were not Swooping/Zooming. So I think this would work, so long as the weapon must first roll to-hit.


- while you cannot use Template, Blast or Large Blast weapons against a Zooming flyer, the Death Ray is none of these.

Does the Death Ray roll to-hit?

[Nemo]

Psychic shooting attacks are still shooting attacks. I would say that auto-hitting psychic shooting attacks still come under Snap Fire rules, and thus cannot be used against zooming flyers.

As for the Doomscythe... The Skyfire rules only state that you can take your shots at your regular BS. The Skyfire rules do not say that these are not still Snap Shots. If they are still Snap Shots, then you cannot use auto-hitting shooting attacks.

I would suggest that both RAW and RAI suggests that the Doomscythe cannot fire its Death Ray at a zooming flyer.

-Kristian

[JamesP]

Does the Death Ray roll to-hit?

Nope, you just pick a spot and then draw a line of death ray goodness (TM) to a point 2D6 away.

[DarkLink]

Can you snap fire auto-hits? If so, then it's perfectly legal, and I don't recall any restriction on being able to do it.

[Nemo]

Darklink:


Against zooming flyers, you can only take Snap Shots. The Snap Shots rule states that weapons that do not roll to hit cannot take Snap Shots. As in, cannot be fired if they would be fired as Snap Shots.

[JamesP]

As for the Doomscythe... The Skyfire rules only state that you can take your shots at your regular BS. The Skyfire rules do not say that these are not still Snap Shots. If they are still Snap Shots, then you cannot use auto-hitting shooting attacks.

I would suggest that both RAW and RAI suggests that the Doomscythe cannot fire its Death Ray at a zooming flyer.

-Kristian

I'd agree with you, though I think it can be argued the other way.

Page 81, top of the right-hand column says that only Snap Shots can be taken against Zooming flyers unless you have the Skyfire rule (emphasis added). So that suggests that Skyfire shots are not Snap Shots but normal shooting, albeit at a flying target.

I'll wait for the FAQ!


James

[Nemo]

Aye, James. Just saw that bit.

It is, as usual with GW, unclear.

-Kristian

[kjolnir]

Can you snap fire auto-hits? If so, then it's perfectly legal, and I don't recall any restriction on being able to do it.

The BRB says anything that does not use BS to resolve a hit cannot be used as a snap shot. So all auto-hit shooting attacks are out.

[kjolnir]

Nope, you just pick a spot and then draw a line of death ray goodness (TM) to a point 2D6 away.

Then I would say it cannot hit Swooping/Zooming flyers.

edit: Pg 13, lower-right hard corner.

[DarkLink]

The BRB says anything that does not use BS to resolve a hit cannot be used as a snap shot. So all auto-hit shooting attacks are out.

Perfect. There's the solution.

[JamesP]

Perfect. There's the solution.

Unless the argument that Skyfire shots are not Snap Shots but normal shooting, albeit at a flying target, holds up.

Page 81, top of the right-hand column says that only Snap Shots can be taken against Zooming flyers unless you have the Skyfire rule - i.e. that Skyfire allows you to make normal AKA non-Snap Shot shots against Zooming flyers.

Until an FAQ I'll stick to dogfighting with twin-linked Tesla, unless my opponent says otherwise.

[kjolnir]

Unless the argument that Skyfire shots are not Snap Shots but normal shooting, albeit at a flying target, holds up.

Page 81, top of the right-hand column says that only Snap Shots can be taken against Zooming flyers unless you have the Skyfire rule - i.e. that Skyfire allows you to make normal AKA non-Snap Shot shots against Zooming flyers.

Until an FAQ I'll stick to dogfighting with twin-linked Tesla, unless my opponent says otherwise.

Does your Death Ray require a to-hit roll?

[Nachodragon]

Does your Death Ray require a to-hit roll?

Doomscythe is a Flyer. It can choose to skyfire, therefore; whether it rolls to hit is irrelevant as this only affects shots made as snap-fire. The Death Ray is not a template nor a blast weapon.

Until further FAQ'd, I am going to play it as choose to skyfire and I can hit flyers, otherwise, I only hit non-flying units.

[kjolnir]

Doomscythe is a Flyer. It can choose to skyfire, therefore; whether it rolls to hit is irrelevant as this only affects shots made as snap-fire. The Death Ray is not a template nor a blast weapon.

Until further FAQ'd, I am going to play it as choose to skyfire and I can hit flyers, otherwise, I only hit non-flying units.

Edit: Nevermind, I get what you're saying. If you use the Skyfire special rule, it applies to all your weapons, including the Death Ray. That means your Death Ray would not be making a Snap Shot against the Flyer, and can be used.

I have a hard time disagreeing.

[Nachodragon]

Yes, that is what I was saying.

[kjolnir]

Perfect. There's the solution.

Except that when using the Skyfire rule, you're not making a Snap Shot. Template, Blast, and Large Blast weapons are still out even with Skyfire because they are specifically excluded by the Hard to Hit rule, but the Necron Death Ray is not.

RAI - Death Rays shouldn't hit.
RAW - They can.

[Quaade]

The quickest way to resolve this is the following:

Does it fit into the narrative that a Doom Scythe goes dogfighting and slices another plane in twain with it's Death Ray (e.i. does it look cool in your head while making sense in the greater aspects of the 40k universe).

If yes: do it

If no: don't do it

[Haddock]

Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots. Pg. 81 BRB

Some weapons such as templates and blasts can not be fired as snap shots, it is important to note that any shooting attack that does not use BS (EX. necron monolith portal of exile) cannot be fired as snap shot. Pg. 13

The only thing listed here that can not be used are attacks with the template or blast markers. The necron example it uses is a blast weapon.

weird boy power:
Frazzle range 24" S6 AP3 special Blast, pinning
ZZap range 36" S10 AP2 special melta

In both entries they say automatically hit. Clearly Frazzle says blast, so its out. Zzap on the other hand does not. In every other case of this type of attack(zzap is a melta shot) it needed BS to hit however this auto hits.

Can Zzap be used?

[kjolnir]

Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots. Pg. 81 BRB

Some weapons such as templates and blasts can not be fired as snap shots, it is important to note that any shooting attack that does not use BS (EX. necron monolith portal of exile) cannot be fired as snap shot. Pg. 13

The only thing listed here that can not be used are attacks with the template or blast markers. The necron example it uses is a blast weapon.

weird boy power:
Frazzle range 24" S6 AP3 special Blast, pinning
ZZap range 36" S10 AP2 special melta

In both entries they say automatically hit. Clearly Frazzle says blast, so its out. Zzap on the other hand does not. In every other case of this type of attack(zzap is a melta shot) it needed BS to hit however this auto hits.

Can Zzap be used?

The Death Ray isn't a blast template. It's a 1mm thick line. And if you're using the Skyfire rule, you're not making a Snap Shot, so the no-BS restriction doesn't apply.

If Zzap is a Psychic shooting attack that does not use a BS, it cannot shoot at a swooping or zooming flyer.

[Wildcard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-uhi_qIgSU&feature=player_detailpage#t=97s

from the point it starts to the end(ish)

I dont see why slicing beams couldn't be targeted to other planes (if the idea of the rules is to make sure that you choose either to fire ground or air targets (with good chance to hit anyway..)

[Gir]

I thought as long as your 2 points aren't targeting the flyer, and the line passes through it, you hit it automatically, as you're not targeting it. Same goes for Blood Lance.

That being said, I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment to check the exact wording.

[kjolnir]

I thought as long as your 2 points aren't targeting the flyer, and the line passes through it, you hit it automatically, as you're not targeting it. Same goes for Blood Lance.

That being said, I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment to check the exact wording.

The two points never target anything. No BS is used to figure the hit, because those two points are always hit. And you can't hit swooping or zooming flyer with anything that doesn't require a BS resolution.

[Nachodragon]

The two points never target anything. No BS is used to figure the hit, because those two points are always hit. And you can't hit swooping or zooming flyer with anything that doesn't require a BS resolution.

It doesn't actually say that. Skyfire allows you to hit with full BS. No where does it say you need to roll your BS.

[kjolnir]

It doesn't actually say that. Skyfire allows you to hit with full BS. No where does it say you need to roll your BS.

Skyfire is one thing.

If you're NOT using Skyfire, the lack of a BS roll means you can't hit swooping/zooming flyers.

[Drakkan Vael]

This looks a bit like a circle dance. You allways end up where you began.

Is the Deathray a template? - No
Can it use Skyfire to shoot at Flyers? - Yes
Can it be fired as a Snap Shot? - No
Is it a Snap Shop when using Skyfire? - No
Does Skyfire require that you roll to hit with your BS? No

Following the steps in the BRB this leads to the conclusion that yes, you can use the Deathray to shoot down flyers.

[JMichael]

You meant Eldar Vibro-Cannon not D-Cannon.
But the Vibro Cannon does roll to hit, and for each hit from the artillery battery you add 1 to the Str. So 1=Str4, 2=Str5, and 3=Str6.
I don't see why you couldn't snap shot, and with up to 3 dice to hit...and the weapon also causes auto glances on vehicles! Add in Guide, and you have a really good AA battery!

[kjolnir]

Following the steps in the BRB this leads to the conclusion that yes, you can use the Deathray to shoot down flyers.

I agree, but only using the Skyfire rule. If you're not, you can't. And if you ARE using the Skyfire rule, then you can only hit Flyers, not ground units.

[Tynskel]

this sounds about right!

[SacredChao]

From what I've read, I'd have to agree that a Doomscythe can indeed fire it's line at another Flyer provided it is using Skyfire rule.

However, just to play the Devil's Advocate, GW has (kinda) precedence otherwise.... in Fantasy. In Fantasy, any Blast, Large Blast, Line, or Flame is a Template. Line templates are most used for cannons, but a few like the Penultimate Pendulum (or whatever) and the Skaven one work almost identical to the Death Ray.

Yes, I realize that this is 40k, not Fantasy, and since Lines are not specifically mentioned as a template/blast, I can't see the argument working to disallow it, nor should it. But neither would I be surprised if an FAQ later on makes Lines templates.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

The quickest way to resolve this is the following:

Does it fit into the narrative that a Doom Scythe goes dogfighting and slices another plane in twain with it's Death Ray (e.i. does it look cool in your head while making sense in the greater aspects of the 40k universe).

If yes: do it

If no: don't do it

Mass Effect 3, Leaving Earth scene.

By my count, if you're using sky fire, you're not snap firing. Let people laser beam jets.

[kjolnir]

By my count, if you're using sky fire, you're not snap firing. Let people laser beam jets.

I agree. If you're using Syfire, you're not Snap Firing...at flyers.

You ARE Snap Firing at ground units...and you can't Snap Fire with weapons that do not require a to-hit roll.

[Gloomfang]

Psychic shooting attacks are still shooting attacks. I would say that auto-hitting psychic shooting attacks still come under Snap Fire rules, and thus cannot be used against zooming flyers.

-Kristian

There are some Psychic attacks that still autohit flyers, but they are not shooting attacks. Objectorum Mechanum is a big one. It is a Maladiction that is used in the movement phase and is not a shooting attack. So pick a unit in 24" and if they don't Deny the Witch the power goes off.

One of the best AA weapons around, if you can get it. Only army that can get it reliably is the Nid's though. 1/5 chance with anyone but the Swarmlord to get the power. But the standard Nid army looks to be packing 5+ psykers.

[sfshilo]

If it "shoots", it must use skyfire, if it autohits it cannot skyfire.

This one is pretty clear compared to the mawlac, vehicle explosions and bomb squigs that are NOT shooting attacks and do not fall into the skyfire catagory.

The rulebook is pretty specific, it says "shots" aka shooting attacks.

[rle68]

vibro cannons can be used and do not need to use snap shot rules a vibro cannon can be targeted at another target and it draws a lines 36 inches long EVERYTHING UNDER THE LINE IS HIT.. the flyer is not directly targeted yet it is still hit...and the line has been defined in the sw faq concerning joww

the only issue is , is your op going to park another target in direct line of his flyer i doubt it... since the VC can affect your own troops as well it doesnt say you can shoot your own guys to skip needing 6's to hit the flyer so unless there is another target in front of the flyer youll have to roll to hit the flyer with the VC

Also do not forget Njal's world effect on turn 4-6 potential is not a shooting attack does not require 6's to hit it does in deed auto hit and you get no save of any kind from it only requirement is distance and line of sight

[kjolnir]

vibro cannons can be used and do not need to use snap shot rules a vibro cannon can be targeted at another target and it draws a lines 36 inches long EVERYTHING UNDER THE LINE IS HIT.

Except for things that weapons which cannot Snap Fire cannot hit. Like Vibrocannons not being able to target flyers since they are incapable of using Snap Shot due to be artillery.

[addamsfamily36]

im really confused on this one.

- a flyer that has zoomed can only be shot at using snap fire

- artillery for example can't snap fire as only units that can can target the flyer

- artillery that uses a "line" shot to hit things doesn't target

- anything that is touched by the "line" shot is hit.

so surely it bypasses the no snapfire rule? as you never target the flyer specifically there is no need to have the snapfire rule in place.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Diagnosis Ninja]

im really confused on this one.

- a flyer that has zoomed can only be shot at using snap fire

- artillery for example can't snap fire as only units that can can target the flyer

- artillery that uses a "line" shot to hit things doesn't target

- anything that is touched by the "line" shot is hit.

so surely it bypasses the no snapfire rule? as you never target the flyer specifically there is no need to have the snapfire rule in place.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

-Zoomers can only be snapfired at.
-Skyfire lets you choose to ignore that, shoot at flyers normally, and instead only snap fire at ground units.
-Auto Hits can't be used if snap firing.
-if snap firing at a flyer, you can't use auto hits.
-if Sky firing, you aren't snap firing, so you can auto hit.

Unless I'm mistaken. If there was something that gave a Vibro Cannon Sky Fire, then it could auto hit a flyer, by my count.

[addamsfamily36]

-Zoomers can only be snapfired at.
-Skyfire lets you choose to ignore that, shoot at flyers normally, and instead only snap fire at ground units.
-Auto Hits can't be used if snap firing.
-if snap firing at a flyer, you can't use auto hits.
-if Sky firing, you aren't snap firing, so you can auto hit.

Unless I'm mistaken. If there was something that gave a Vibro Cannon Sky Fire, then it could auto hit a flyer, by my count.

Hmmmm i still think that a roll to hit with a vibro cannon is your distance dice etc (but i don't want to bring up the death ray twin linked argument all over again) so i will just agree on this one and keep quiet...........:(

[rle68]

Except for things that weapons which cannot Snap Fire cannot hit. Like Vibrocannons not being able to target flyers since they are incapable of using Snap Shot due to be artillery.

thus find a target in front of it as i posted then you dont have to worry about it

[rle68]

-Zoomers can only be snapfired at.
-Skyfire lets you choose to ignore that, shoot at flyers normally, and instead only snap fire at ground units.
-Auto Hits can't be used if snap firing.
-if snap firing at a flyer, you can't use auto hits.
-if Sky firing, you aren't snap firing, so you can auto hit.

Unless I'm mistaken. If there was something that gave a Vibro Cannon Sky Fire, then it could auto hit a flyer, by my count.

"""-Auto Hits can't be used if snap firing. """ where does it say that ? it doesnt as far as i see no where in snap shot page 13 does it say anything about auto hits not being allowed.. it only mentions no ballistics skill shots, and template or ordnance...how many things auto hit that arent those anyways?

and as i stated njal's world effect WILL affect flyers zooming or not AND is an auto hit

[kjolnir]

thus find a target in front of it as i posted then you dont have to worry about it

The ground target would be hit. The Flyer would not.

[kjolnir]

"""-Auto Hits can't be used if snap firing. """ where does it say that ? it doesnt as far as i see no where in snap shot page 13 does it say anything about auto hits not being allowed

Hits that don't use BS to resolve cannot be used for Snap Shots. Pg 13, Snap Shots.

If something is auto-hitting, it's not using a BS to resolve.


.. it only mentions no ballistics skill shots, and template or ordnance...how many things auto hit that arent those anyways?

Death Rays and many Psychic Shooting Attacks.

[Demonus]

Ok I think Ive read about a dozen of these topics, with no one ever coming to a concise conclusion. I plan to use my Doom Scythe tomorrow. Would this be a correct assessment of its abilities?

If I want to zoom, I can fire the death ray at a flyer, but not a ground unit. I can fire the destructor at either.

If I do not zoom, I can fire the death ray at a ground unit or flier, and hit both if the line passes through both?

Or I can fire at either, but only hit one?

Cheers.

[kjolnir]

Ok I think Ive read about a dozen of these topics, with no one ever coming to a concise conclusion. I plan to use my Doom Scythe tomorrow. Would this be a correct assessment of its abilities?

If I want to zoom, I can fire the death ray at a flyer, but not a ground unit. I can fire the destructor at either.

If I do not zoom, I can fire the death ray at a ground unit or flier, and hit both if the line passes through both?

Or I can fire at either, but only hit one?

Cheers.

So for the Flyer itself, the movement mode you're using is irrelevant. If you want to Zoom you can still shoot at whatever you want.

When it comes to hitting other zooming flyers, you need to use Skyfire if you want to hit it with your Death Ray. If you do that, any ground units you touch with the line will NOT be hit since you will be Snap Firing at them, and auto-hit weapons cannot be used to Snap Fire.

So, if you Zoom and DO NOT use Skyfire, resolve attacks on ground troops as normal. All attacks on Zooming flyers are snap shots.

If you Zoom and DO use SKyfire, resolve all attacks on other Zooming flyers as normal. All attacks on ground troops are snap shots.

[Demonus]

gotcha. makes sense thanks :) should be an interesting first trial game.

1000pt 3 way battle:
IG (no fliers) vs Tyranids vs Necrons (3 fliers)
LOL will probably take hours just getting through 2 turns of "wait, are you sure thats how you do that?"

[kjolnir]

gotcha. makes sense thanks :) should be an interesting first trial game.

1000pt 3 way battle:
IG (no fliers) vs Tyranids vs Necrons (3 fliers)
LOL will probably take hours just getting through 2 turns of "wait, are you sure thats how you do that?"

Yeah, the 1850 pt game I played last night took about 4 1/2 hours to play. Every turn we were looking up 2-3 different things.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

"""-Auto Hits can't be used if snap firing. """ where does it say that ? it doesnt as far as i see no where in snap shot page 13 does it say anything about auto hits not being allowed.. it only mentions no ballistics skill shots, and template or ordnance...how many things auto hit that arent those anyways?

and as i stated njal's world effect WILL affect flyers zooming or not AND is an auto hit

I'm so right that other people quote it for me.

If something auto hits, there was never a ballistics check involved, was there?

[Subexarch]

Maybe someone can answer this for me then. How does a flyer get hit by a line if you ignore the base?

[JMichael]

Maybe someone can answer this for me then. How does a flyer get hit by a line if you ignore the base?

Just like a skimmer does.

[rle68]

I'm so right that other people quote it for me.

If something auto hits, there was never a ballistics check involved, was there?

there is a little term you better get used to .. its called codex trumps rule book.. nuff said...im so right you quote wrong

[rle68]

I'm so right that other people quote it for me.

If something auto hits, there was never a ballistics check involved, was there?

and just so you feel even more incorrect its not a shooting attack so nothing you argue is valid so snap shot plays 0 part of any of that ..if you dont shoot at it weather its a flyer or a ground pounder makes 0 difference if your within 18" and he sees you .. your hit end of story

nuff said so sad goodbye

[Sainhann]

So with the Eldar Vibro Cannon you target something else since that will only require a 4+ and if the flyer just so happens to be along the same line well it gets hit as well.

Though I do think that this will need an FAQ.

But for right now Vibro Cannons can be very nasty against Flyers because they are a vehicle and any vehicle hit by a Vibro Cannon takes d6 glancing hits.

With the new rules Vibro Cannons make for some very nasty Tank Killers.

[rle68]

Actually .. after playing today

vibro cannons are going to be big

eldar vibro cannons do not shoot at any target.. per the codex

page 45
when firing a vibro cannon battery roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target)if any of the vibro cannons hit , draw a single 36" inch from one vibro canon in any direction. any unit that the line passes through suffers d6 hits.

a target with an armor value that is hit by a vibro cannon suffers a single glancing hit: do not roll for armor pen.

Now how hard is that to follow?

its simple dex vs rulebook
rulebook says this... my dex says that... my dex wins.. take your single glance and deal with it... flying mcs have to actually be wounded so it isnt that much to flying mcs

until they either faq the vibro cannon or a new eldar dex comes out it is that way all day every day

this isnt an intent versus style rule... this is raw black letter law

I DO NOT CARE if artillery can not snap shoot... im not shooting at you directly your special skill is nerfed by mine... end of statement... happens all the gd time get over it

and njal's world effect does the same exact thing..it doesnt shoot its not shooting attack its not beholden to snap shoot rules anyways if your within 18" and he sees you.. you get hit end of story..

[Lemt]

The Necron Death Ray doesn't fire at anything either (you just draw a line), but people here don't seem to realise that. And the Death Ray is S10 AP1.
As for Eldar, D-cannons work too, although they have a short range.

[rle68]

The Necron Death Ray doesn't fire at anything either (you just draw a line), but people here don't seem to realise that. And the Death Ray is S10 AP1.
As for Eldar, D-cannons work too, although they have a short range.

death rays yes d cannon no.. d cannon targets a unit and artillery cannot target flyers its also a blast weapon and blast weapons cannot snap shoot... vibro cannon says specifically it doesnt target anything... big diff there imo

[Lemt]

Vibro cannons, D-cannons and Death rays don't shoot at any targets, so you can't say they aren't allowed to shoot at flyers. And nothing says flyers aren't hit by the line you draw, so they hit flyers too.

[rle68]

Vibro cannons, D-cannons and Death rays don't shoot at any targets, so you can't say they aren't allowed to shoot at flyers. And nothing says flyers aren't hit by the line you draw, so they hit flyers too.

only vibro cannons say they dont shoot at targets no where in d cannon or shadow weaver does it say it dont pick a target only vibro does

d cannons dont draw a line they use blast same as shadow weaver.. the rule book specifically says blast weapons cannot snap fire.. vibro cannon is the exception no blast no target simply a line and it hits everything friend and foe alike

cant argue what isnt there im afraid

[Tynskel]

I can't believe you guys are arguing for auto-hit weapons to hit flyers when they do not have skyfire.

It is quite clear: weapons that do not use BS to fire cannot take snap shots! p.13.

Now, the Necron Doom Scythe can switch to Skyfire, at which point it will not 'Snap Shot' vs flyers. However, once again, the rules are quite clear, you cannot snap shot with a weapons that do not use BS to fire. This means that while in 'Skyfire' if any target that isn't a flyer, skimmer, or swooping Monsterous Creature, is touched by the line cannot be hit!

It is very simple to imagine. The weapon is a continuous beam, so if it is aimed at 'ground forces' you cannot conceivably imagine the weapon hitting a flyer. Visa versa, you cannot conceivably imagine that a continuous beam aiming at flyers hitting 'ground forces'.

[rle68]

I can't believe you guys are arguing for auto-hit weapons to hit flyers when they do not have skyfire.

It is quite clear: weapons that do not use BS to fire cannot take snap shots! p.13.

Now, the Necron Doom Scythe can switch to Skyfire, at which point it will not 'Snap Shot' vs flyers. However, once again, the rules are quite clear, you cannot snap shot with a weapons that do not use BS to fire. This means that while in 'Skyfire' if any target that isn't a flyer, skimmer, or swooping Monsterous Creature, is touched by the line cannot be hit!

It is very simple to imagine. The weapon is a continuous beam, so if it is aimed at 'ground forces' you cannot conceivably imagine the weapon hitting a flyer. Visa versa, you cannot conceivably imagine that a continuous beam aiming at flyers hitting 'ground forces'.

And i can t believe you dont know codex trumps rule book ...once you learn that come back with something new .. i bet you argued up and down that joww wouldnt touch jet bikes or jump infantry either huh ?

nothing you said has any basis of fact i have posted raw quite clear quite concise deal with it.. it doesnt target ANYTHING all units are hit... are flyers units... ANSWER.. YES THEY ARE DING DING DING .. tell them what he wins johnny.. you get shot by vibro cannons

it has a bs it uses a bs it shoots it scores!
and njal doesnt shoot but he hits flyers you want to argue that as well?

[DarkLink]

rle68's a troll anyways, so ignore whatever his argument is. Tynskel's argument is simple and consistent with the rest of the rules.

[JMichael]

It is very simple to imagine. The weapon is a continuous beam, so if it is aimed at 'ground forces' you cannot conceivably imagine the weapon hitting a flyer. Visa versa, you cannot conceivably imagine that a continuous beam aiming at flyers hitting 'ground forces'.

I can totally imagine that.

[Tynskel]

And i can t believe you dont know codex trumps rule book ...once you learn that come back with something new .. i bet you argued up and down that joww wouldnt touch jet bikes or jump infantry either huh ?

nothing you said has any basis of fact i have posted raw quite clear quite concise deal with it.. it doesnt target ANYTHING all units are hit... are flyers units... ANSWER.. YES THEY ARE DING DING DING .. tell them what he wins johnny.. you get shot by vibro cannons

it has a bs it uses a bs it shoots it scores!
and njal doesnt shoot but he hits flyers you want to argue that as well?

Hahah! Codex Trumps rulebook, when it is EXPLICIT. The doom scythe deathray doesn't use BS to hit, AND the rulebook explicitly states that you cannot take 'Snap Shots' with weapons that don't use BS to hit.


SOOOOOOO... Tell me where the codex is trumping the rulebook again? Oh, that's right, it isn't. There's nothing in the Codex nor FAQ that states that the Deathray overrides the rulebook (or the vibrocannon).

In fact, it uses the same language that BOTH Templates and Blasts: everything 'touched' is hit. Sorry buddy, but you need to point something out that is explicit in overriding the rulebook. (and I when I say buddy, I mean friend, and when I say friend, I mean hated brother, and when I say hated brother, I mean that I am not evil, just drawn that way...)

Here's an example:
"If a Mawloc Deep Strike onto a point occupied by another model, do not roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table but instead do the following..."

Note that a rulebook rule is explicitly cited in this instant. Furthermore, note that the codex rule explicitly states to NOT use the rule from the rulebook. This is a 'codex' example of 'codex trumps rulebook'. :)

[Lemt]

Oh right, D-cannons don't work. Still, Death Ray still does. You draw a line to fire, and nowhere does it say I'm not allowed to draw a line. And if the line touches a flyer, well, nothing says the flyer magically becomes ethereal.

[Tynskel]

Weapons that do not use BS to hit cannot take snap shots.

1) Shaken All shots are Snap Shots: Deathray cannot hit because it cannot snap shot.
2) against Flyers All shots are Snap Shots: Deathray cannot hit because it cannot snap shot.
3) Doom Scythe goes into Skyfire against Flyers, Flying Monsterous Creatures, and Skimmers can hit, everything else: cannot hit because it cannot snap shots.

[Lemt]

Weapons that do not use BS to hit cannot take snap shots.

1) Shaken All shots are Snap Shots: Deathray cannot hit because it cannot snap shot.
2) against Flyers All shots are Snap Shots: Deathray cannot hit because it cannot snap shot.
3) Doom Scythe goes into Skyfire against Flyers, Flying Monsterous Creatures, and Skimmers can hit, everything else: cannot hit because it cannot snap shots.

I didn't make a Snap Shot, I drew a line on the battlefield. Your flyer crosses that line? S10 AP1 impact.

[kjolnir]

I didn't make a Snap Shot,

It's not your choice. When you are attempting to hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer, you are FORCED to make a Snap Shot. As soon as the line touches the Flyer, the shot becomes a Snap Shot for the purposes of hitting that Flyer, whether you like it or not. Weapons that do not use BS to resolve a hit cannot, ever, make a Snap Shot. Therefore, you cannot hit the Flyer.

Furthermore, the Vibro Cannon has two strikes against it, since it is Artillery, and Artillery can never make a Snap Shot.

[DarkLink]

Kjolnir's got you there. The rules are pretty explict about that.

[Lemt]

It's not your choice. When you are attempting to hit a Swooping/Zooming flyer, you are FORCED to make a Snap Shot. As soon as the line touches the Flyer, the shot becomes a Snap Shot for the purposes of hitting that Flyer, whether you like it or not. Weapons that do not use BS to resolve a hit cannot, ever, make a Snap Shot. Therefore, you cannot hit the Flyer.

Furthermore, the Vibro Cannon has two strikes against it, since it is Artillery, and Artillery can never make a Snap Shot.

Page 81: "shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule)" (bold added for emphasis)
Page 42: (SKYFIRE) "A model with this special rule (...) fires using it's normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at flyers (...)"


So why is the Necron Doom Scythe forced to fire Snap Shots? It's a flyer, and thus has Skyfire.

You may be right about vibro cannons, as per page 13:
"any shooting attack that does not use a ballistic skill (...) cannot be "fired" as a Snap Shot" (quotation marks on "fired" direct from the rulebook).
If you understand that in this rule "fired" means the same as "resolved" from the rule on page 81, then since it would force the hits on flyers to be resolved as Snap Shots, it wouldn't hit the flyer. Although it's a bit of a jump and should be FAQ'ed/errata'd.
But it still doesn't matter for the Doom Scythe.

[kjolnir]

So why is the Necron Doom Scythe forced to fire Snap Shots? It's a flyer, and thus has Skyfire.

Skyfire is a mode you must choose at the onset of the shooting phase. Either you are using Skyfire, or you are not. Just like with Flyers - either they are Zooming/Swooping, or Hovering/Gliding (if available). You have to pick one or the other.

So at the beginning of the shooting phase, you will declare whether or not your Death Scythe is using the Skyfire special rule. If it is not, it can never hit a Zooming/Swooping flyer. If it is, it can never hit ground units. It's either/or, not both/and.

**edited for a bit of clarification: Snap Shot is a shooting attack modifier forced onto the attacker by the status of the defender. In the Snap Shot rule on page 13, it says "if a unit is FORCED to make a Snap Shot..." . That means the choice is not the attacker's, but is instead a condition forced upon the attacker by the status of the defender.


You may be right about vibro cannons, as per page 13:
"any shooting attack that does not use a ballistic skill (...) cannot be "fired" as a Snap Shot" (quotation marks on "fired" direct from the rulebook).
If you understand that in this rule "fired" means the same as "resolved" from the rule on page 81, then since it would force the hits on flyers to be resolved as Snap Shots, it wouldn't hit the flyer. Although it's a bit of a jump and should be FAQ'ed/errata'd.
But it still doesn't matter for the Doom Scythe.

It does matter, because Skyfire is a MODE that you toggle on or off. It's not a passive special rule.

And, if definitely needs a FAQ clarification.

[Lemt]

Skyfire is a mode you must choose at the onset of the shooting phase. Either you are using Skyfire, or you are not. Just like with Flyers - either they are Zooming/Swooping, or Hovering/Gliding (if available). You have to pick one or the other....(...snip...)...

Page 81, top left:
"Flyers can choose whether or not to use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each shooting phase. They don't have to use the Skyfire special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that turn are treated as having the Skyfire special rule."

Ok, so far it seems that Auto-hit weapons can only hit Zooming Flyers if they use the Skyfire rule, and if they do that can only hit flyers unless they also have the Interceptor rule.

Anything else, or should I edit the OP and add this?

EDIT: If tomorrow nobody else adds anything to the discussion I'll add this to the OP, and add where you can find all the relevant rules.

[kjolnir]

Page 81, top left:
"Flyers can choose whether or not to use the Skyfire special rule at the start of each shooting phase. They don't have to use the Skyfire special rule, but if they do, all weapons they fire that turn are treated as having the Skyfire special rule."

Ok, so far it seems that Auto-hit weapons can only hit Zooming Flyers if they use the Skyfire rule, and if they do that can only hit flyers unless they also have the Interceptor rule.

Anything else, or should I edit the OP and add this?

EDIT: If tomorrow nobody else adds anything to the discussion I'll add this to the OP, and add where you can find all the relevant rules.

That sounds about right. Unless something has the Interceptor special rule, all shots made at ground targets while using the Skyfire special rule are considered Snap Shots.

[Tynskel]

I said all of this already.

Flyers firing normally Snap Shot other flyers.
Flyers declared 'Skyfire' firing at Flyers, Flying Monsterous Creatures, and Skimmers, fire normally. Everything else: Snap Shot.

Weapons the fire and do not use ballistic skill CANNOT snap shot.

It is quite clear when the Deathray can and cannot be used.

It is also quite clear that artillery CANNOT snap shot, making it quite clear when the vibrocannon can and cannot be used.

[Lemt]

I said all of this already.

Flyers firing normally Snap Shot other flyers.
Flyers declared 'Skyfire' firing at Flyers, Flying Monsterous Creatures, and Skimmers, fire normally. Everything else: Snap Shot.

Weapons the fire and do not use ballistic skill CANNOT snap shot.

It is quite clear when the Deathray can and cannot be used.

It is also quite clear that artillery CANNOT snap shot, making it quite clear when the vibrocannon can and cannot be used.

The important part is quoting rules, so peoiple know why everything happens.

[Turner]

What about the Deathstrike Missile? (Brought to you by the Imperial Guard, need someone to hold an objective for you while your army surges forward to crush the enemy? Consider the Imperial Guard, Today!). This baby is ordance barrage (can never fire directly). And when it lands it is a d3 + 3" radius explosion! Everything within the radius takes a Str 10, AP1 ordance barrage hit, ignores cover too by the way, and isn't a template...

[kjolnir]

What about the Deathstrike Missile? (Brought to you by the Imperial Guard, need someone to hold an objective for you while your army surges forward to crush the enemy? Consider the Imperial Guard, Today!). This baby is ordance barrage (can never fire directly). And when it lands it is a d3 + 3" radius explosion! Everything within the radius takes a Str 10, AP1 ordance barrage hit, ignores cover too by the way, and isn't a template...

If you can manage to fire this thing and hit a Zooming/Swooping Flyer with it, then the other player deserves to eat the explosion regardless of all other rules for letting it sit on the table for 4-5 turns and doing nothing about it.

[Tynskel]

The important part is quoting rules, so peoiple know why everything happens.

I suggest acquiring your own copy of the rulebook, and you can read it yourself.

As a hint: snap fire rules are under 'snap fire', and the skyfire rules are under 'skyfire', and the flyer rules are under 'flyer'.

[kjolnir]

I suggest acquiring your own copy of the rulebook, and you can read it yourself.

As a hint: snap fire rules are under 'snap fire', and the skyfire rules are under 'skyfire', and the flyer rules are under 'flyer'.

I think he's just talking about adding a compilation of 9 pages of discussion to the first page so future people don't have to dig through all 9 pages to get an answer to their question. And that's a good thing!

[Lemt]

What about the Deathstrike Missile? (Brought to you by the Imperial Guard, need someone to hold an objective for you while your army surges forward to crush the enemy? Consider the Imperial Guard, Today!). This baby is ordance barrage (can never fire directly). And when it lands it is a d3 + 3" radius explosion! Everything within the radius takes a Str 10, AP1 ordance barrage hit, ignores cover too by the way, and isn't a template...

Page 81, under "Hard to Hit":
"Template, Blast and LArge Blast weapons cannot hit a flyer in Zoom mode."

Imperial Guard errata, page 1, under "Deathstrike Missile Launcher Wargear":
"Note that the blast does not have a "center of blast".

The explosion of the Deathstrike Missile is referred to as being a blast weapon (albeit with special rules), so it cannot hit a Zooming Flyer.



I'm updating the OP now with all relevant info.

[Turner]

Page 81, under "Hard to Hit":
"Template, Blast and LArge Blast weapons cannot hit a flyer in Zoom mode."

Imperial Guard errata, page 1, under "Deathstrike Missile Launcher Wargear":
"Note that the blast does not have a "center of blast".

The explosion of the Deathstrike Missile is referred to as being a blast weapon (albeit with special rules), so it cannot hit a Zooming Flyer.



I'm updating the OP now with all relevant info.



Weird, I always thought the Deathstrike Missile was just a giant area claimed the lives of whatever was in said area, and not something as simple as a blast weapons... Oh I see, you think it's a Blast Weapon and thus uses that small green blast circle. Oh no, see you choose a target (an enemy unit or some sort) and then you try to shoot at it. So you roll a d6, add some modifiers... Well let's skip ahead shall we and assume that it not only goes off but a direct hit is scoredm (on the scatter die that is). So now you roll a d3 and add 3" to it, and that ladies and gentlemen is the radius of explosion! Everything within that radius takes a Str10 AP1 Ordance Barrage hit, that ignores cover. That part where you are mentioning "center of blast" is for vehicles. (Hold on let me grab my book, here it is). Oh, you know what? I just answered my own question! "All models within range of impact point are hit." Ah, glad we cleared that up... Also, it still isn't a template, blast or large blast weapon... Unless "blast" is referring to not only the mini circle template that we all know and love (the one used when you shoot frag grenades, or frag missiles, or throw a votrex grenade) while simultaneously referring to any weapons that has "Blast*" in it's profile and uses some weird extra rules, like a radius of explosion. Would this entire thread fall under the classic arguement of Main Rulebook < Codex? Or has that been removed from 6th?

[kjolnir]

Weird, I always thought the Deathstrike Missile was just a giant area claimed the lives of whatever was in said area, and not something as simple as a blast weapons... Oh I see, you think it's a Blast Weapon and thus uses that small green blast circle. Oh no, see you choose a target (an enemy unit or some sort) and then you try to shoot at it. So you roll a d6, add some modifiers... Well let's skip ahead shall we and assume that it not only goes off but a direct hit is scoredm (on the scatter die that is). So now you roll a d3 and add 3" to it, and that ladies and gentlemen is the radius of explosion! Everything within that radius takes a Str10 AP1 Ordance Barrage hit, that ignores cover. That part where you are mentioning "center of blast" is for vehicles. (Hold on let me grab my book, here it is). Oh, you know what? I just answered my own question! "All models within range of impact point are hit." Ah, glad we cleared that up... Also, it still isn't a template, blast or large blast weapon... Unless "blast" is referring to not only the mini circle template that we all know and love (the one used when you shoot frag grenades, or frag missiles, or throw a votrex grenade) while simultaneously referring to any weapons that has "Blast*" in it's profile and uses some weird extra rules, like a radius of explosion. Would this entire thread fall under the classic arguement of Main Rulebook < Codex? Or has that been removed from 6th?

Unless you are making a to-hit roll, it can't hit a Swooping/Zooming Flyer. Scattering isn't a to-hit roll.

[Lemt]

To put it even more simply, the errata refers to it as a blast weapon, although it doesn't use standard blast templates. And blast weapons can't ever hit Zooming Flyers.

[Demonus]

Unless you are making a to-hit roll, it can't hit a Swooping/Zooming Flyer. Scattering isn't a to-hit roll.

LOL although you are hoping for the dice to read...."Hit"...

[kjolnir]

LOL although you are hoping for the dice to read...."Hit"...

LOL sure, though "not scattering" isn't quite the same thing as "hitting" in the to-hit resolution sense of the word.

[Demonus]

tomatoes, tomatoes :)

[kjolnir]

tomatoes, tomatoes :)

Not really.

You roll to scatter. Everything under the template is automatically hit. Therefore, no to-hit roll is made, so no snap shots can be made with the weapon.

[Nachodragon]

Deathstrike Missile is a Ordinance Barrage. Under the rules of Barrage, pg 34, it says barrage weapons use blast templates and consequently use the rules for Blast and Large Blast weapons. Blast weapons are not able to hit flyers, per pg 81, so, this missile is not able to hit a flyer in zoom mode.

[kjolnir]

Deathstrike Missile is a Ordinance Barrage. Under the rules of Barrage, pg 34, it says barrage weapons use blast templates and consequently use the rules for Blast and Large Blast weapons. Blast weapons are not able to hit flyers, per pg 81, so, this missile is not able to hit a flyer in zoom mode.

The only "quirk" is that it isn't using a standard sized blast template, but it IS still using a template.

[Nachodragon]

While being quirky, it clearly states it uses the rules for Blast. Blast cannot hit flyers. Even if the area of effect was 6d6+12 feet, it would still not hit the flyer as the rules state Blast cannot hit flyers.

[kjolnir]

While being quirky, it clearly states it uses the rules for Blast. Blast cannot hit flyers. Even if the area of effect was 6d6+12 feet, it would still not hit the flyer as the rules state Blast cannot hit flyers.

Yep!

[Lemt]

BUMP, because I'm still seeing similar threads popping up, so I guess this needs some visibility.