Black Templar in Codex Space Marines ?

[Deadlift]

This is not a rumour but just something I noticed in the new rule book. Towards the back of the book there is a section dedicated to showcasing minitures from each codex. Each spacemarines non codex chapter gets it's own section except the Black Templars who are lumped in with codex spacemarines on page 246.

What do we think, is this a sign that the BT are going to be in the next space marine codex instead of having their own unique book ?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You may be right, I don't think Templars are that divergent from regular Space Marines anymore, it's just the Emperor's Champion now.

[Wolfshade]

On the one hand I am dissapointed by this move, on the other they are not so codex divergent so maybe don't need one. If they don't get this then it'll be a sad day for the Templars (and sucessors), but might make way for some xenos love

[eldargal]

As annoying as it may be for Black Templar players, it would make some sense. I get that GW don't want to reduce the number of Marine codices, but by introducing a codex for a Second Founding chapter they encouraged a whole lot of wishlisting and demands for other Second Founding chapters to get codices. Better to restrict it to a handful of First Founding chapters and lump in successor chapters with them if possible. So shove them in C:SM until they replace C:BT with Codex: Imperial Fists, then stuff them in that.

Honestly though it could just be an coincidence or they decided only First Founding Chapters were going to get equal attention and second founding, even one with a codex, wouldn't. Fairly sure there were solid rumours of a new BT codex at some point.

[gcsmith]

Black templars are more divergent than you think, for one thing lumping them in the Codex Space Marines is an insult since they don't follow the codex astartes. Which is the basis of the armies in the book.

I hope we keep ourselves separate, but the overall crappening of our army in 6th would suggest they don't appreciate us.

[mathhammer]

though it could just be an coincidence or they decided only First Founding Chapters were going to get equal attention

this seems to be the right point.

showcase the 18 first founding chapters,

[Wolfshade]

Black templars are more divergent than you think, for one thing lumping them in the Codex Space Marines is an insult since they don't follow the codex astartes. Which is the basis of the armies in the book.

I hope we keep ourselves separate, but the overall crappening of our army in 6th would suggest they don't appreciate us.

If they don't follow the Codex Astartes that would suggest that they were renegade.
Even Dorn saw that his fists had to become compliant to Guilliman's tome

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

this seems to be the right point.

showcase the 18 first founding chapters,

9 First Founding Chapters. :rolleyes:

[eldargal]

I know they are divergent, but if they aren't going to get their own book, until (if) a Codex: Imperial Fists book is released there is nowhere else for them to go.

Black templars are more divergent than you think, for one thing lumping them in the Codex Space Marines is an insult since they don't follow the codex astartes. Which is the basis of the armies in the book.

I hope we keep ourselves separate, but the overall crappening of our army in 6th would suggest they don't appreciate us.

[Wolfshade]

9 First Founding Chapters. :rolleyes:

9 Loyal First Founding Legions :rolleyes:

[gcsmith]

If they don't follow the Codex Astartes that would suggest that they were renegade.
Even Dorn saw that his fists had to become compliant to Guilliman's tome

The codex astartes is not put into place by the emperor therefore it is hardly something marines have to follow. The templars follow the emperors original edict, The crusade, and the no librarian in battle laws. By the Emperors standards, only the Templars are truly loyal

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

9 Loyal First Founding Legions :rolleyes:

They weren't First Founding until after the Heresy. :D

[eldargal]

Except even Dorn agreed to it in the end, so the Black Templars are going against the wishes of their own primarch. Who, let's face it, would have more of an idea what his Papa wanted than any Space Marine.:p

The codex astartes is not put into place by the emperor therefore it is hardly something marines have to follow. The templars follow the emperors original edict, The crusade, and the no librarian in battle laws. By the Emperors standards, only the Templars are truly loyal

[Wolfshade]

Exactly.

[Deadlift]

I know they are divergent, but if they aren't going to get their own book, until (if) a Codex: Imperial Fists book is released there is nowhere else for them to go.

Can't see this happening. IF follow the codex astartes rigidly don't they ?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Who cares? The only Space Marine chapter that matters are the Storm Wardens. :D

[Wolfshade]

Who cares? The only Space Marine chapter that matters are the Storm Wardens. :D

Who?
-or-
Who's your daddy? Oh wait you don't know, probably another unloved Ultramarine wannabe:p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think it's the Khan actually. It'd fit the bill perfectly.

[eldargal]

I think so, but Black Templars are a successor chapter to Imperial Fists so if BT aren't in their own codex or C:SM and C:BT is replaced by a C:IF (all speculative) it would make more sense for them to be in it than anywhere else.

Can't see this happening. IF follow the codex astartes rigidly don't they ?

[Necron2.0]

Actually, given how GW operates, it would make perfect PERFECT sense for them to lump black templars back into the regular space marines codex. This would force all the templar players to buy brand new scouts at the very least.

[Kawauso]

If they don't follow the Codex Astartes that would suggest that they were renegade.
Even Dorn saw that his fists had to become compliant to Guilliman's tome

Be that as it may, they don't.

Space Wolves don't follow the codex, either.

There are a number of chapters which do not follow it, and those that get away with blatant disregard of the codex only do so because the Inquisition is either unwilling to challenge them directly or because they are simply keeping tabs on them for now, watching for any hint of heresy.

[LoreDraconis]

Yeah, BT are less divergent than Iron Hands, for example. As far as list construction is concerned, IH have no chapter masters, no chaplains, Iron Fathers, Dreadnought HQ, Squad sergeants in Terminator armor etc etc. Yet they got lumped into the SM codex.

Black templar have...what? Weird hybrid novitiate/tac squads and the LR crusader which got thrown over to C:SM anyway.

If they brought back a simple BALANCED chapter trait system (i hope..), or character unlocking special army builds, it could take care of that easily. No need for a separate book or a separate line. That way they can focus on making the core SM rulebook as watertight as possible.

[flekkzo]

As annoying as it may be for Black Templar players, it would make some sense. I get that GW don't want to reduce the number of Marine codices, but by introducing a codex for a Second Founding chapter they encouraged a whole lot of wishlisting and demands for other Second Founding chapters to get codices. Better to restrict it to a handful of First Founding chapters and lump in successor chapters with them if possible. So shove them in C:SM until they replace C:BT with Codex: Imperial Fists, then stuff them in that.

Honestly though it could just be an coincidence or they decided only First Founding Chapters were going to get equal attention and second founding, even one with a codex, wouldn't. Fairly sure there were solid rumours of a new BT codex at some point.

As delighted as I would be with a codex:IF (proper Lysander and proper 1st company termies to start with) I do find it interesting to note that there are five SM codexes, vanilla, BA, DA, SW, and BT. Three of those are codex chapters, while SW and BT are not codex chapters. Would make more sense to bunch the codex ones together and make BT a proper crusading codex with an emphasis on assault and horde.

[eldargal]

Four of them are First Founding though, BT are the odd one out. That is why I think it makes more sense for the book to be replaced by a C:IF and have them in with their parent chapter/legion. Blood Angels and Dark Angels will never lose their codex status, along with Space Wolves and Ultramarines they are the Big Four of Marine chapters, have been since 2nd edition.

Not that I disagree or anything, if GW wanted to clear up the codex schedule and make things more even the best thing they could do would be to have a Codex: Codex Chapters and Codex: Non-Codex Chapters. With different names of course.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*I, the lone Raven Guard fan, sits in a corner crying*

[flekkzo]

Yeah, BT are less divergent than Iron Hands, for example. As far as list construction is concerned, IH have no chapter masters, no chaplains, Iron Fathers, Dreadnought HQ, Squad sergeants in Terminator armor etc etc. Yet they got lumped into the SM codex.

Black templar have...what? Weird hybrid novitiate/tac squads and the LR crusader which got thrown over to C:SM anyway.

If they brought back a simple BALANCED chapter trait system (i hope..), or character unlocking special army builds, it could take care of that easily. No need for a separate book or a separate line. That way they can focus on making the core SM rulebook as watertight as possible.

I think that WD codexes are a good idea for 1st founding chapters using C:SM as a basis. That way adding about 6-8 new units (mostly ICs) and changes to other units (which FOC slot they belong to, special squad sergeants as above, etc) is enough.

[LoreDraconis]

I think that WD codexes are a good idea for 1st founding chapters using C:SM as a basis. That way adding about 6-8 new units (mostly ICs) and changes to other units (which FOC slot they belong to, special squad sergeants as above, etc) is enough.

Yep, or that. Although the more stuff you have outside of the codex, the more iffy and bulky it starts getting. Where do you FAQ a WD supplement? What if a player starts the hobby a year after the WD issue releases? They need a complied supplement I think, as Eldargal suggests, like they used to do.

Privateer press does tiered supplement released (although they do it for the ENTIRE line at once) and it works really well because noone complains that they're not getting attention. Every faction gets something. GW will never do that for the entire line, but there are enough SM players around that pooling some of them and releasing tiered supplements would make a lot of sense, instead of waiting 5 years for your pet chapter to get an update. It makes more sense from a business perspective too.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I supposeeee they could be folded into a C:SM non-traumatically? Have "The Emperor's Champion" and the Special Characters from C:BT, and the Templars' Chapter Tactics allows them to "Add up to 10 Novitiates to a Tactical Squad for +x points", take Crusaders as Dedicated Transports and freely exchange any Boltgun for a Chainsword.

[Black Hydra]

I think WD would be the best way to go. Too many chapters are too different in their respective fluffs to be lumped into one codex. I'm not saying give every single chapter an entry, but Iron Hands for example are one of those chapters that need to play differently. Raven Guard also come to mind. Heck if the Raven Guard get a WD entry making them more unique I'll definitely make a Raptors Chapter army.

So I believe WD has the potential to make good supplements for SM chapters.

[Dave Bone]

This is my first post here.

The Black Templars are nothing like the Codex chapters. There are numerous special rules and squad combinations that cannot be achieved in that codex if they intend on keeping codex chapters where they have for the history of the game. I have every version of every codex for the last 15 years and I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

I have Initiates with Close Combat Weapons mixed with Bolters, special weapons and Neophytes with various kit. As of now, I can put these squads all together.

I also happen to have Codex Space Marines.

If they lumped the BT in with a new Codex Space Marines, that codex had better have options for everything I've bought in the past few years. Emperor's Champion and everything.

I will feel betrayed by GW, since they have told us repeatedly they will continue to support every army that has a codex. That means not lumping them in with another army that doesn't accurately exhibit the options originally inherent in the army that's getting clumped together with them.

If they insult me like that (above all the other times they've insulted me by their actions), I'll be selling GW armies and buying FoW and Warmachine.

[eldargal]

I wouldn't worry, there is no indication any of this will actually happen. But when it boils down to it all the differences you refer to could be covered by a page or two of Black Templar unit entries forming the core of a seperate army list.

[gcsmith]

I wouldn't worry, there is no indication any of this will actually happen. But when it boils down to it all the differences you refer to could be covered by a page or two of Black Templar unit entries forming the core of a seperate army list.

Thats the same for any marine codex.

[eldargal]

I know, why do you think xenos players get so cranky?:p We have to put up with the development cycle processing a zillion Marine books which could easily be handled in one or two super-codices. But it would upset all the fanboys.

[gcsmith]

TBH with the fluff theyd have to put in, and the pricing of the marine codex as it is, a super codex would price little kids out of the hobby. And GW can't have that.

But those little kids are as annoying as hell at planned event. Also Eldargal since your in the southwest if your ever in Torquay area Would love to give you a game.

[Dave Bone]

I know, why do you think xenos players get so cranky?:p We have to put up with the development cycle processing a zillion Marine books which could easily be handled in one or two super-codices. But it would upset all the fanboys.

You just said it. ONE hardcover book. Maybe two if you wanna make em cheaper, but I'd pay $75 :eek: for a marine super codex. As long as it had my Templars in it.

You could even do 3...one for each main founding and one for successors. I'd pay $45 for a hardcover Second Founding book.

[gcsmith]

You just said it. ONE hardcover book. Maybe two if you wanna make em cheaper, but I'd pay $75 :eek: for a marine super codex. As long as it had my Templars in it.

You could even do 3...one for each main founding and one for successors. I'd pay $45 for a hardcover Second Founding book.

Personally, I don't want to pay for the rules of clearly inferior marines, Ultrasmurph scum.

Also I love my GW manager, he is a total salesman, doesn't understand that it makes sense for GW to give a free digital copy with every hard copy of a book. After all the digital copies will cost nothing to make, and it will make people like the company more. The satisfaction would earn more money in the long term. Then again this manger banned me the day he came into the store because he banned open gaming and I complained, and he tried telling me that SoB white dwarf codex doesn't work without the Grey Knight book.

[LoreDraconis]

I know, why do you think xenos players get so cranky?:p We have to put up with the development cycle processing a zillion Marine books which could easily be handled in one or two super-codices. But it would upset all the fanboys.

Yeah, and i really dont see why. Especially now with the allies rules, I would love to see a super SM codex that covers ALL Astartes into one giant book. There's been enough shenanigans with rules creep between the codicies in ways that make zero sense. Look at devastator squad point costs between C:SM and BA.

I think a lot of bad decisions are made "for the sake of the fanboys" as opposed to what makes sense for the game as a whole.

Pooling them would make it more balanced, more up to date (all could be FAQed at the same time) and them GW could release WD supplements at their leisure to fine tune it. But all rules NEED to be compiled into a rulebook at some point. WD alone doesnt cut it because it only has availability at the time that it's released.

The digital codex format could be ideal for this. If they release a new unit for your codex it could be compiled into the digital codex with a simple patch to ensure everyone is up to date. Sadly, the decision makers at GW are so behind the curve when it comes with a forward thinking technology approach, that I am afraid they will miss a lot of these opportunities.

[gcsmith]

Yeah, and i really dont see why. Especially now with the allies rules, I would love to see a super SM codex that covers ALL Astartes into one giant book. There's been enough shenanigans with rules creep between the codicies in ways that make zero sense. Look at devastator squad point costs between C:SM and BA.

I think a lot of bad decisions are made "for the sake of the fanboys" as opposed to what makes sense for the game as a whole.

Pooling them would make it more balanced, more up to date (all could be FAQed at the same time) and them GW could release WD supplements at their leisure to fine tune it. But all rules NEED to be compiled into a rulebook at some point. WD alone doesnt cut it because it only has availability at the time that it's released.

The digital codex format could be ideal for this. If they release a new unit for your codex it could be compiled into the digital codex with a simple patch to ensure everyone is up to date. Sadly, the decision makers at GW are so behind the curve when it comes with a forward thinking technology approach, that I am afraid they will miss a lot of these opportunities.

Its not that they are behind, but no every gamer can bring a digital copy to GW, and If they only update the digital copy, they leave people out. Even if they gave a free digital copy with every hardback.

[LoreDraconis]

Its not that they are behind, but no every gamer can bring a digital copy to GW, and If they only update the digital copy, they leave people out. Even if they gave a free digital copy with every hardback.

Tie it into your account on the GW website. Allow players to download the newest rules addendum in PDF format if they have purchased the corresponding codex hardback or on the App store. Apps can be purchased in iTunes and are not necessarily tied to your mobile device. They do this for the FAQ already, just cause you dont have a PC doesnt mean the FAQ rules changes dont apply.

So...no, theres really no good reason why you cant do this. Honestly, this is the way things are going and needs to happen sooner or later. Companies need to either adapt or be left behind.

[gcsmith]

FAQ's can be printed, Codex's wont be legally allowed to be printed, hence why you would need a Ipad to use the codex.

[LoreDraconis]

FAQ's can be printed, Codex's wont be legally allowed to be printed, hence why you would need a Ipad to use the codex.

Another one of GW's outmoded and entrenched ideas that needs to go away if they want to move forward. And you do know that the ipad version is just a pdf too right? You can copy a pdf with the click of a button that's indistinguishable from the real thing. If you give the customer value beyond the content that's printed on the page, your business will be 100x more secure. This is why they are adding live updates to the digital copy, like adding the stormtalon into the C:SM app. It's no harder to photo copy a codex or download a pdf. They would make more money focusing on developing an agile business model than they would sticking it out and paying their layers to go on a copyright crackdown goose chase. This way of thinking is ALREADY not working. And they are changing...very slowly...but hopefully they've realized its the way things need to go.

The trick is to make it more convenient for the player to just buy the app/subscription instead of trying to hunt down a copy.

[DarkLink]

Tie it into your account on the GW website.

Because DMR for entertainment stuff is so popular in videos games and music right now:rolleyes:.

[LoreDraconis]

Because DMR for entertainment stuff is so popular in videos games and music right now:rolleyes:.

no one said anything about DRM

[gcsmith]

Why do people think DRM is a bad thing, If people didn't pirate, and the bad game companies gave the developers a cut of second hand sales, DRM wouldn't exist. Heck the second hand sales probably cost them more than pirating

[DarkLink]

DMR is an attempt to combat a symptom. Kind of like how way back when, horse drawn carriages tried to ban horseless carriages. See where that got them?

With the expanse of digital media, the market is changing. Insisting on everyone buying an overpriced book and trying vainly to stop pirating isn't a very good way of adapting to the market. That's not a comment on the morality of pirating stuff, it's just a realistic statement that GW, and similar companies, are going to have to adapt their business models to meet the changing market.

GW isn't in the business of selling overpriced books or expensive minis. They're in the business of providing entertainment, and they're going to have to keep their eye on that if they want to survive 3d printing and the digitial age, in the long run.

But I did misread the account comment. I though when he said 'link it to an account' that meant in real time, when he was really just saying buy it online like at amazon.

[LoreDraconis]

DRM is bad because it creates boatloads of inconvenience for legitimate paying end users while doing nothing to curb the doings of pirates. Once you hack the DRM and put a DRM free version online it only serves to frustrate and annoy the people that are trying to do it through legal means.

It's a poorly conceived way of trying to keep an outmoded business model alive when it should be allowed to die to make way for models that benefit both the end user and the developer.

...plus, people just dont like being told what they can and cant do with something they've payed for.

EDIT (at Darklink) Preach on brother!

[gcsmith]

Except DRM isnt the same thing, DRM isnt trying to stop a new business, its trying to stop theft.

People want rid of DRM stop pirating.

[LoreDraconis]

Except DRM isnt the same thing, DRM isnt trying to stop a new business, its trying to stop theft.

People want rid of DRM stop pirating.

you...didn't actually read anything since your last post...did you...

...cause if you did, you would have noticed that i pointed out that it DOESNT, in fact, stop theft.

[Bigred]

Back to the original topic.

I always saw the Templars as the "Space Marines for beginners" army.

They were marines, were easy to paint (black), and kind of grew out of the old Armageddon campaign book. By fluff and divergance, they never made any sense. Sure they are divergant, but so are many more deserving 1st Founding chapters like the White Scars (bikers), Raven Guard (crafty-jump packs), and even the stoic machine-loving Iron Hands.

The problem for the Templars is that now GW has a new shiny marine army tailored for newbies to join the hobby. May I introduce you the the Grey Knights. With them in the game, the Templars kind of feel like a 5th wheel in the overall codex scheme.

I personally wouldn't be surprised to find them folded back into an omnibus Space Marine codex that details all the codex and first founding chapters and their successors. I'd be perfectly happy to have a few doctrines or traits given to each first founding legion, and place the Templars back to just being a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists.

Would you feel any sympathy to howls from Lamenter's players about needing their own codex after all?

[Tynskel]

Another one of GW's outmoded and entrenched ideas that needs to go away if they want to move forward. And you do know that the ipad version is just a pdf too right? You can copy a pdf with the click of a button that's indistinguishable from the real thing. If you give the customer value beyond the content that's printed on the page, your business will be 100x more secure. This is why they are adding live updates to the digital copy, like adding the stormtalon into the C:SM app. It's no harder to photo copy a codex or download a pdf. They would make more money focusing on developing an agile business model than they would sticking it out and paying their layers to go on a copyright crackdown goose chase. This way of thinking is ALREADY not working. And they are changing...very slowly...but hopefully they've realized its the way things need to go.

The trick is to make it more convenient for the player to just buy the app/subscription instead of trying to hunt down a copy.

this is flawed. The iPad Codex is NOT a .pdf in the sense of a standardized pdf. This is an interactive book with nice index, videos, etc. GW put a lot of effort into the electronic version.

[Anggul]

All it really needs is a little box in the Space Marines codex saying that they can have mixed Marine/Scout squads, an entry for the Emperor's Champion with the 'vows' and Fearless in Close Combat being their Combat Tactics replacement of choice.

Have Helbrecht and Grimaldus in the book and you're done.

[Firehead158]

All it really needs is a little box in the Space Marines codex saying that they can have mixed Marine/Scout squads, an entry for the Emperor's Champion with the 'vows' and Fearless in Close Combat being their Combat Tactics replacement of choice.

Have Helbrecht and Grimaldus in the book and you're done.


That's kind of a slap in the face though. There are lots of things besides that, that make the Black Templars. They have a few other special rules that regular marines can't get. Unless it gets changed, there cannot be any psykers allied with Black Templars, or in the Black Templars. Land Raider dedicated transports for just about everyone? Who else can get that? Two special weapons in terminator squads? Sword Brethren? The ability to buy a chaplain for each command squad, and it doesn't take up an additional HQ slot? Buying USRs for veteran units and command squads? There is enough that separates them from the other armies.

I'm all for a Codex Space Marines, that has sections for each individual chapter(including BA, SW, and DA), don't get me wrong. That would bring all the Space Marines armies in line with each other as far as rulesets and whatnot, but I don't think they should just get a tiny section that gives a few special rules to the BT, or any other chapter for that matter.

[dreadnaughtguy]

they should move to two marine books. Omni-codex Space Marine and an Omni-codex chaos space marine. they can put all the second founding/ renegade chapters/ legions in the two books. Any new "toys" they come up with inbetween codex release they can put into a WD with which "armies" can use it. This would shorten the release schedule and still allow for a huge "wave" release of marines.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

That's kind of a slap in the face though. There are lots of things besides that, that make the Black Templars. They have a few other special rules that regular marines can't get. Unless it gets changed, there cannot be any psykers allied with Black Templars, or in the Black Templars. Land Raider dedicated transports for just about everyone? Who else can get that? Two special weapons in terminator squads? Sword Brethren? The ability to buy a chaplain for each command squad, and it doesn't take up an additional HQ slot? Buying USRs for veteran units and command squads? There is enough that separates them from the other armies.Stuff like "Two special weapons in termie squads" and veteran skills are just leftovers from the BT being an older 'dex. Even if they get updated as their own book, they'll lose those. Sword Brethren are very similar to vanguard, being close combat veterans.

You've managed to describe all of their differences in a paragraph - why couldn't a new Space Marine codex do the same thing? Don't call it a "slap in the face", this is toy soldiers we're talking about.

Just cut down on the over the top ultramarines fluff and we'll have plenty of space for fluff for the divergent chapters. Presumably the unit fluff for Chaplains and Crusaders would discuss the Templars heavily.

[gcsmith]

It's hardly fair that Templars ain't too divergent when every unique thing we get basically gets copied in other codex'

Give Templars something unique and keep it unique.

[Dave Bone]

Back to the original topic.

I always saw the Templars as the "Space Marines for beginners" army.

They were marines, were easy to paint (black), and kind of grew out of the old Armageddon campaign book. By fluff and divergance, they never made any sense. Sure they are divergant, but so are many more deserving 1st Founding chapters like the White Scars (bikers), Raven Guard (crafty-jump packs), and even the stoic machine-loving Iron Hands.

The problem for the Templars is that now GW has a new shiny marine army tailored for newbies to join the hobby. May I introduce you the the Grey Knights. With them in the game, the Templars kind of feel like a 5th wheel in the overall codex scheme.

I personally wouldn't be surprised to find them folded back into an omnibus Space Marine codex that details all the codex and first founding chapters and their successors. I'd be perfectly happy to have a few doctrines or traits given to each first founding legion, and place the Templars back to just being a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists.

Would you feel any sympathy to howls from Lamenter's players about needing their own codex after all?

All of this is Badwrong. They sold us this stuff as an army they were going to support. They even assured us they would, after the Eye of Terror armies got the axe. They need to stick by their sales model.

Also, BT weren't ever considered good for beginners. Or veterans.


Stuff like "Two special weapons in termie squads" and veteran skills are just leftovers from the BT being an older 'dex. Even if they get updated as their own book, they'll lose those. Sword Brethren are very similar to vanguard, being close combat veterans.

You've managed to describe all of their differences in a paragraph - why couldn't a new Space Marine codex do the same thing? Don't call it a "slap in the face", this is toy soldiers we're talking about.

Just cut down on the over the top ultramarines fluff and we'll have plenty of space for fluff for the divergent chapters. Presumably the unit fluff for Chaplains and Crusaders would discuss the Templars heavily.

Updating the codex is not the same as replacing it with a generic book. If the BT get it, SW/DA/BA better get the same treatment.

[LoreDraconis]

this is flawed. The iPad Codex is NOT a .pdf in the sense of a standardized pdf. This is an interactive book with nice index, videos, etc. GW put a lot of effort into the electronic version.

Fair enough, glorified E-book then, but that's more or less irrelevant to my argument. . Copying will only become more of an issue as time goes on. No one's going to bother authenticating your ipad app to verify it's authenticity, and you may just as well be looking at a pirated pdf. Once its digital all bets are off. So if they were smart, they would not just treat it as a book with extra bells and whistles, but do something like give you the app with some of the fluff, HQ and troops for free (yes, free), then charge you a small fee (say $2) for every additional model you wish you add to your reference. Add the ability to use it as an army-builder with auto points calculation and suddenly you have something that players will be throwing cash at. On top of that, if facilitates live updates and FAQs, so your book will never be out of date.

To me the digital version is still little more than a scanned rulebook with some bells and whistles added to justify the obscene pricetag.

k, im done

/offtopic

[Galadren]

What makes Templars unique is both fluff and mechanics:

No Tactical squads, Scout Squads, Devastator Squads, Librarians...we would need a page saying we can't use half of the codex if folded into Codex: Space Marines.

Fluff wise the chapter is more like a small Legion, with over 6,000 Marines spread across the galaxy and a refusal to follow the Codex Astartes. Yes, the Imperial Fists are a Codex adherent chapter, but they only became so after the Second Founding and the Templars leaving. There's now 10,000 years of history separating the two chapters.

Meanwhile, Codex adherent chapters like Dark Angels and Blood Angels get plenty of support with their own books. People argue "Black Templars aren't that divergent..." Well, by that logic neither of these other two chapters deserve their own books. A special character or two, a unique unit entry and those two are done. Space Marine Megabus everyone.

No? Your precious sparkly vampires and emo kids deserve their own books? So do mine.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Updating the codex is not the same as replacing it with a generic book. If the BT get it, SW/DA/BA better get the same treatment.Sure! Dark Angels have very little codex divergent stuff anyways, and BA would be easily done. SW is a bit more difficult, but doable.

Plus, every "divergent" marines 'dex has the exact same selection of vehicles, give or take an upgrade here and a Baal there. That's a huge part of the 'dex there that's just cut&paste.

You sure you want the SW/BA treatment? :P I mean, Bloodfists, Blood Champions, Bloodstrike Missiles, Bloodshard ammo, Blood Talons etc. The Blood Angels got a new unit that was angelic and covered in blood drops, the Wolves got a unit riding giant wolves. These aren't exactly gripping developments.

No Tactical squads, Scout Squads, Devastator Squads, Librarians...we would need a page saying we can't use half of the codex if folded into Codex: Space Marines.Sure you'd need a whole page? You just listed them all in less than two lines. "In a Black Templars army, Tactical Squads become Crusader Squads. They exchange Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Righteous Zeal. A Crusader Squad may purchase up to Ten Neophytes at +x pts per model. Any model may exchange a Boltgun for a Chainsword."

Edit: It's worth adding that I *like* the Templars - when I was coming into the hobby it was a total toss-up between Templars and Chaos. Chaos won, but only just. Their "shooting me just makes me ANGRY" attitude and their mixed armour crusader squads are a fun theme. But I can still look at them and see that the things I like about them could be easily preserved if they're moved into the main C:SM.

I do not oppose such a move because they would lose nothing; I would support such a move because it would create more room for other developments in 40k, and speed up updates.

[Bigred]

You could come somewhat close to representing some of the Black Templars differences with the old SM codex doctrine system. Note with 6th, there are a few interesting USRs that seem to have Black Templars written all over them.

So does that mean:
1) They did that to make it easier to kick out a short and sweet White Dwarf or full codex.
2) they did it to more easily define them using a small set of USRs and fold them back into the SM codex?

In any case, GW never said they would never again invalidate a codex - they said they would never invalidate existing models. With the addition of a handful of special characters and some doctrines, they could fold them back in and preserve everyone's model collection. Sources say the new BT models have been on ice for over a year, just waiting for a release window.

Also for what its worth, I don't think GW would ever have the guts to fold them into the SM book - I'd look for a new BT Codex next year.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

One fun, simple thing that could be done for Sword Brethren (as a Vanguard-swap) in a combined 'dex - lose Heroic Intervention, but instead each model is treated as a Character, and each is therefore capable of accepting and making Challenges. You could kit them all out differently to deal with different potential enemy Characters. Facing a Powerfist Sergeant? Challenge with you Power Sword/Bolt Pistol guy. Lysander? Use a Power Maul/Storm Shield guy. Artificer Armour Captain? Use a Power Axe/Storm Shield guy. Lots of fun, characterful possibilities with a tiny rule change.

[UnionJackal]

How's this for a thought: in place of the regular C:SM and many Chapter codices, what about a 'First Founding' codex covering Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamanders, followed by a 'Chapters' codex covering the Ultramarines, Codex-pattern Successor Chapters, rules for adding flavour to custom Chapters and details on those other ones popular enough to require focus (Black Templars, Storm Wardens, Howling Griffons, Iron Snakes, Silver Skulls and so on)? Both in the hardback format of WHFB army books of course. Blood Angels and Space Wolves get to keep their separate books.

It was suggested to me a few months ago (by a FW staffer) that this was the route we might be seeing. However, the same person was espousing significant changes in the background and balance of power (loyalist Astartes as scattered warbands, traitors having got their drek together and functioning as large crusading armies) so the veracity has to be questioned and salt supplied. I think it'd work though.

[gcsmith]

Wait unionjackal you're suggesting I share a codex with Ultramarines.... Not even with my own founding legion.

The day I share a book with Ultrasmurphs is the day I go crusading to nottingham,

[Wolfshade]

Sure! Dark Angels have very little codex divergent stuff anyways, and BA would be easily done. SW is a bit more difficult, but doable.

Plus, every "divergent" marines 'dex has the exact same selection of vehicles, give or take an upgrade here and a Baal there. That's a huge part of the 'dex there that's just cut&paste.

You sure you want the SW/BA treatment? :P I mean, Bloodfists, Blood Champions, Bloodstrike Missiles, Bloodshard ammo, Blood Talons etc. The Blood Angels got a new unit that was angelic and covered in blood drops, the Wolves got a unit riding giant wolves. These aren't exactly gripping developments.
Sure you'd need a whole page? You just listed them all in less than two lines. "In a Black Templars army, Tactical Squads become Crusader Squads. They exchange Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Righteous Zeal. A Crusader Squad may purchase up to Ten Neophytes at +x pts per model. Any model may exchange a Boltgun for a Chainsword."

Edit: It's worth adding that I *like* the Templars - when I was coming into the hobby it was a total toss-up between Templars and Chaos. Chaos won, but only just. Their "shooting me just makes me ANGRY" attitude and their mixed armour crusader squads are a fun theme. But I can still look at them and see that the things I like about them could be easily preserved if they're moved into the main C:SM.

I do not oppose such a move because they would lose nothing; I would support such a move because it would create more room for other developments in 40k, and speed up updates.

This is very similiar to 3rd ed BA codex, where every "divergent" unit entry was listed seperately (including special characters) and anything that was standard SM was "See Codex:Space Marine" but each entry had what you could have it in so if you couldn't take unit X it didn't appear in the mini-dex. IIRC sources stated that GW weren't too happy with that direction and this was then superceeded by the WDdex and then the 5th ed chunky book.
There is no reason why each chapter (or a number of varied ones) couldn't have their own chapter in the C:SM, but it might upset some people, but could serve as a good template for CSMs

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Wait unionjackal you're suggesting I share a codex with Ultramarines.... Not even with my own founding legion.

The day I share a book with Ultrasmurphs is the day I go crusading to nottingham,


From Torquay? Seems highly impractical.

[gcsmith]

From Torquay? Seems highly impractical.

TBH crusading instead of bio bombing is highly impractical, but our country has a history of crusading, it's traditional.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

True that!

Nothing quite like a crusade.

[Wolfshade]

The day I share a book with Ultrasmurphs is the day I go crusading to nottingham,

Crusading from Torquay - seems legit

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Crusading from Torquay - seems legit

Seems legate. :p

[gcsmith]

Wouldn't be a crusade all the way, and besides most likely from Dundee, my university. From where I cna bring a few mad BT players as well as a space wolf playing manager. Offer him some meade and I'm sure he would join the fight. Then as word got out about a fight, Scottish people would join in just for the fun.

[Tynskel]

Wouldn't be a crusade all the way, and besides most likely from Dundee, my university. From where I cna bring a few mad BT players as well as a space wolf playing manager. Offer him some meade and I'm sure he would join the fight. Then as word got out about a fight, Scottish people would join in just for the fun.

If word got out about free drinks, you would get the Irish, as well!

[gendoikari87]

I say axe the templars codex to make room for the mechanicus. SO SAYETH THE OMNISSIAH!

[UnionJackal]

If there's a crusade in the offing then you shall have my sword. It's not like I'd have to carry it far. ;-)

The Black Templar sculpts are some of my favourites, I'm hoping they aren't condemned to obscurity.

[Satric the 5th]

Personally, I don't want to pay for the rules of clearly inferior marines, Ultrasmurph scum.

Also I love my GW manager, he is a total salesman, doesn't understand that it makes sense for GW to give a free digital copy with every hard copy of a book. After all the digital copies will cost nothing to make, and it will make people like the company more. The satisfaction would earn more money in the long term. Then again this manger banned me the day he came into the store because he banned open gaming and I complained, and he tried telling me that SoB white dwarf codex doesn't work without the Grey Knight book.



sounds like you need to move to a non GW store, and find an independent game dealer, and get a better class of people in the move as well. here in south east virginia, all we have are indy's, the closest GW store is on the south side of DC. I tried applying once, and even got interviewed, but they wanted to move me all over the place. I told them, if they wanted to put a store into the hampton roads area to let me know, not that we have a lack of players, and potential players... like 8-9 military bases within a half hour of the house. but I digress...

[Satric the 5th]

DMR is an attempt to combat a symptom. Kind of like how way back when, horse drawn carriages tried to ban horseless carriages. See where that got them?

With the expanse of digital media, the market is changing. Insisting on everyone buying an overpriced book and trying vainly to stop pirating isn't a very good way of adapting to the market. That's not a comment on the morality of pirating stuff, it's just a realistic statement that GW, and similar companies, are going to have to adapt their business models to meet the changing market.

GW isn't in the business of selling overpriced books or expensive minis. They're in the business of providing entertainment, and they're going to have to keep their eye on that if they want to survive 3d printing and the digitial age, in the long run.

But I did misread the account comment. I though when he said 'link it to an account' that meant in real time, when he was really just saying buy it online like at amazon.

GW has always been in this to sell more minis, that is what they do. They are NOT in this to make the game better, their object is, sell, sell, sell. Have once owned a interest in a game store, and when we got told by GW to carry their stuff it was buy $10k of 40k and $10k of WFB, and $2k of the other lines, or not carry them at all. And that we had to fully support all of their lines, with minimum monthly orders, just to get what we wanted, which was the 40k stuff, (the rest of their line didn't sell in the area). No they are not in this to make this a better game, they are in it to sell mini's, the books and computer games are just icing on the cake, and if they stumble into making the game better for the players, well happy benefits can be made on accident too.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Easy solution: give armies templates:

Special Character - Some swanky master man who does stuff. Army counts as Space Marine variant.
HQ Upgrade - Upgrade character with same army variant as special character for X points.
Special Unit - Unique unit for an army. In the case of Black Templars, something like Sword Brethren.
Unit Upgrade - Allow Marines - Scouts to combine, allow weapon swaps.

You could do this with any chapter in the game.

Dark Angels:

Special Character: Azrael
HQ Upgrade: Captain - Master of the Deathwing = Terminator Troops
HQ Upgrade: Captain - Master of the Ravenwing = Bike Troops
unit upgrade: Deathwing Terminators - mix and match weapons, Turn 1 DS.
Unit upgrade: Ravenwing Bikers: Scouts, Fearless, class sergeant upgrade.

Voilá, most of the Dark Angels book represented in about 4 or 5 sentences. Expand that, and you've got a couple of pages tops.

[The Madman]

to be honest, until the new versions of Blood Angels and Space wolves they were pretty much the same as the vanilla book except a unit or special rule difference and Dark Angels are no different to Space marines at the moment. when the next Black Templar comes out they will have all sorts of Templar themed weapons and units just like Space wolves now ride wolves.

[bfmusashi]

It's not like C:SM is divided from the other SM variants by adherence to the Codex Astartes. The Salamanders have an eight company organization and the Blood Angels follow the normal divisions. Black Templars may just define the far end of the fringe if put in C:SM.

[Mr Mystery]

They have their own section in the reference bit....

[Wolfshade]

They have their own section in the reference bit....

I haven't got that far in my book, but that would be the biggest hint that they will stay seperate for this edition.

[Renegade]

BT are said to be verging on being a renegade faction in their own codex, so it would be kind of awkward fitting them in to the C:SM as they are definitely not UM wannabes like codex chapters a said to be.

They don't have veteran Sergeants, as these go straight in to the Sword Brethren and are not organised in to companies, as fighting companies are created ad-hoc. Add in Righteous Zeal, Fearless in cc, Abhor the witch and vows and they simply do not fit in the current C:SM in any format. Other divergences have been mentioned, except he hierarchy, which goes Highmarsha (Chapter Master like), Marshal (Not a Chapter Master but higher than Captain), Castellan (Captain).

If lumping codex faction together is being discussed, there is about as much difference between the two Eldar as there are between the C:SM,C:BT,C:SW, C:DA and C:BA, so they hardly justify having two books for the same race as Orks don't get ones for different clans.

[Rapture]

People focus too much on the fluff and the idea of "my army" not having its own codex. A codex gives history and some background, but the primary reason that it is used is for the rules.

Every difference between the Black Templars and the Codex Space Marines could easily fit into a combined book. People might not like the idea, which is fine, but arguing that the two have to be separate for some reason is disingenuous.

The point is that a Black Templar army could be reasonably represented even if the rules existed in combined codex.

[Renegade]

People focus too much on the fluff and the idea of "my army" not having its own codex. A codex gives history and some background, but the primary reason that it is used is for the rules.

Every difference between the Black Templars and the Codex Space Marines could easily fit into a combined book. People might not like the idea, which is fine, but arguing that the two have to be separate for some reason is disingenuous.

The point is that a Black Templar army could be reasonably represented even if the rules existed in combined codex.

As could both Eldar fit in a single book quite reasonably.

[Deadlift]

As could both Eldar fit in a single book quite reasonably.

Really ? That's like saying marines and chaos marines could go in the same dex, I just can't see it. Eldar and Dark Eldar don't share any units except for harlies do they ? Even the weapons work very differently. I am not an expert on either codex but they both do have very distinct flavours.

Correct me if I am wrong :)

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

As could both Eldar fit in a single book quite reasonably.Have you read the Eldar 'dexs? The two eldar share no wargear, no units beyond harlequins, and no vehicles. The Templars have the same motorpool as the vanilla 'dex, most of their wargear, often have identical statlines and share a couple of identical units.

[Rapture]

As could both Eldar fit in a single book quite reasonably.
Even if they could (provided that they are not nearly as similar as any of the various marine codexes), what does that have to do with what we are talking about? This is not a discussion of the eldar books, but of the Black Templars.

[StMichael]

Basing the continuation of a whole codex on where the models are placed in the rulebook is an awfully big leap. Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves all have a wide variety of unique models for showcasing. Black Templars have the Emperor's Champion, Sword Brothers, 2 special characters, and an upgrade kit. They wouldn't be able to fill a whole section with Black Templar models.

[Marius]

Easy solution: give armies templates:

Special Character - Some swanky master man who does stuff. Army counts as Space Marine variant.
HQ Upgrade - Upgrade character with same army variant as special character for X points.
Special Unit - Unique unit for an army. In the case of Black Templars, something like Sword Brethren.
Unit Upgrade - Allow Marines - Scouts to combine, allow weapon swaps.

You could do this with any chapter in the game.

Dark Angels:

Special Character: Azrael
HQ Upgrade: Captain - Master of the Deathwing = Terminator Troops
HQ Upgrade: Captain - Master of the Ravenwing = Bike Troops
unit upgrade: Deathwing Terminators - mix and match weapons, Turn 1 DS.
Unit upgrade: Ravenwing Bikers: Scouts, Fearless, class sergeant upgrade.

Voilá, most of the Dark Angels book represented in about 4 or 5 sentences. Expand that, and you've got a couple of pages tops.

Dark Angels have book since 2nd edition like the rest of main armys and the idea is make them unique again like they did with space wolves, grey knights or blood angels. I really don't want them inside another codex they should really make the same process as the rest of non-codex marines.

[DarkLink]

And while GW's been wasting time on mostly identical Marine codices (just a couple of unique units and special rules for each, that's it), every single xenos codex has been left behind. GW cannot keep up with the current crop of codices. For the sake of the game's balance, they need to either ramp up codex production, or drop codices, or both. And since they release codices in waves to maximize profits, and you can easily fit BT, BA, etc, into the vanilla Marine codex, it's pretty obvious what the logical solution is. Of course, GW's in it for the money so they want lots of codices for lots of releases, and entitled SM players was separate codices for every single chapter that's ever been named, but whatever.

[dawnofthedead]

Entitled SM players is a little harsh.