Clairification Howling Banshees Iniative

[Denied]

Hey all this came up in my gaming group today:

"Howling banshees just got a good buff.

They can swap thier power weapons for power axes, and get +1 str/ap2
As they are always I10 when they charge into combat due to the mask, this is going to rock.

Especially on an autarch with power axe and banshee mask. "

The counter argument right now is : "Power axes are unweildy. That means they strike at init 1."

Nothing in the FAQ that covers this, only the Core and Codex:

"Eldar Codex Page 31: Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee mask has initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades."

So what is everyone's take on this? Does the Power axe Int drop it or does the Mask increase it? I know they have been back and forth on this with similar things like the +2 int on Halberd from GK's where for a while things like lash whips dropped you to Int 1 post the additional +2. Then it was prior and now its post again.

[kappa1az]

Think most are leaning toward the axe striking at I1, it really need to be FAQ thought, I've seen it on here both ways

[gcsmith]

Both are set initiatives, I would say 10 on charge 1 after.

[Melon-neko]

Tyranid FAQ for lash whips says to roll off if the enemy has another set value for initiative. I think that's a good enough way to work conflicting set values in general.

[DarkLink]

It actually covers that under the Modifiers rules. You multiply, then add, then go to set values. And in the case of multiple set values, you roll off.

[Melon-neko]

It actually covers that under the Modifiers rules. You multiply, then add, then go to set values. And in the case of multiple set values, you roll off.

can you point out where, please? I have read page 2 Modifier section half a dozen times trying to figure out if i was imagining things, then remembered I read the roll of in the FAQ

[godsvendetta777]

my bet is that they'll (GW) rule them power swords (AP 3) and put that nail in the coffin ASAP.

[JMichael]

Where does it state Banshees can swap out their power weapons for axes?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Where does it state Banshees can swap out their power weapons for axes?Under 6th ed. rules, anything listed as a "Power Weapon" can either be a Power Sword, Axe, Lance or Maul depending on what it is modeled as.

[DarkLink]

can you point out where, please? I have read page 2 Modifier section half a dozen times trying to figure out if i was imagining things, then remembered I read the roll of in the FAQ

That's second hand knowlege for me, I didn't buy the book so I can't go reference specific things. Someone on one of these threads mentioned it.

It might just be the Most Important Rule thing. I could be wrong, though.

[JMichael]

Under 6th ed. rules, anything listed as a "Power Weapon" can either be a Power Sword, Axe, Lance or Maul depending on what it is modeled as.

Right, and other than they being modeled with swords...the OP mentioned a points upgrade to swap. Where is that?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Right, and other than they being modeled with swords...the OP mentioned a points upgrade to swap. Where is that?He just mentioned "swap", as in cutting the swords off the models and gluing on axes. There are a coupla Eldar kicking around with axes after all. Right now whether a model has a Sword/Axe/Maul/Lance is determined solely by what the actual physical model is equipped with.

RAW, Banshees have Power Weapons, not Swords. Those Power Weapons can be of any type chosen by the modeler.

Keep in mind that if you hold that "it may only be equipped with the supplied Power Weapon" it also means the Chaos Terminators may not have anything besides axes and mauls, Tactical Sergeants may not have Power Axes etc, which seems silly.

Seeing as the rulebook says you roll-off for conflicting set Initiative values, it seems balanced. If you give them a Power Axe, you have a 50/50 chance of going at I10 or I1. Big risk.

[Denied]

Thanks everyone I think it clarifies things a lot so 50/50 roll off each fight sub phase sounds good to me.

[eldargal]

I thought the same rules as GK Quicksilver apply, a buff to initiative doesn't override a weapons special rules? I'd love to think Banshees had a shot at I10 S5 AP2 hits but I really doubt it. Even with Wave Serpents nerfed they would be pretty much the best assault troops in the game.

The first generation of Howling Banshee models c1992 all had axes, the second and third (current) generations had swords. I have around thirty G1 Banshees so I could take them with power axes without being accused of modelling for advantage.

The Modifiers rule isn't that helpful in this case, it says:

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions and finally apply an set values.

The problem isthat each modifier in this case is a set value, you set it to I10 for Unwieldy and I10 for the Banshee Mask. Which takes precedence? Pity you can't just split the difference. Rolling off would be nice but how many people are going to agree to giving Banshees even a 50% chance of having I10 with power axes?

[Thanatos_elNyx]

Unwieldy doesn't set I to 1.
It states you strike with that weapon at I1.
So a Banshee with P.Axe, would be I10 (for Pile In) that swings at I1.

Weird, I know.

[eldargal]

A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative Step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or a Walker

Banshee Mask says you attack in the first round of combat at Initiative Step 10, though, and after the fuss with Quicksilver there is still some debate about what overrides what.:( Under the old rules it qas quite clear, nothing could override the I10 from slow weapons. Now apparently it isn't spelled out so clearly, I think most people just assume it works like last edition (and are probably right).

[Denied]

So firstly lets look at everything rules wise:


Banshee Mask: In the first round of an assault a model wearing a Banshee mask has initiative 10 and negates any Initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades.


Multiple Modifiers, If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that mdify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.


Unwieldy: A model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1, unless it is a Monsterous Creature or a Walker


As a 'set value modifier' the lash whip effect is applied after all other modifiers. If the model is effected by another set value modifier. roll off to see which is applied first at the start of each fight sub-phase

The argument I have heard is that the codex says you HAS initiative 10 where as the weapon profile says you are ATTACKING at initiative 1. IE you can have whatever initiative you want, but attack at the I1 irregardless.

The counter argument is that these are two "set modifiers" and there for it follows the rules for multiple modifiers as per outlined in the Tyranid FAQ.

As for the fact they can be modeled with whatever weapon you want since they are generic "power weapons" and you literally go off what it looks like to determine its profile.

[eldargal]

It's generally not a good idea to start applying precedents from one FAQ to another though. In some cases FAQs directly contradict each other (usually favouring Marines:rolleyes:).

[Denied]

It's generally not a good idea to start applying precedents from one FAQ to another though. In some cases FAQs directly contradict each other (usually favouring Marines:rolleyes:).

True, but that's the arguments people are using and as a tournament organizer I want an answer for this before $hit hits the fan at a competition. It is also the only place where how to handle multiple set value modifiers are discussed and that alone is important for more then just banshees. Think Crowe from the GK's he has that I strike at I10 against MC or independent characters rule, but what happens if he is Whip Coiled or Lash Whipped? (these are not covered in the GK FAQ and the closest answer is out of the Tyranid FAQ)

[Anggul]

Unwieldy doesn't set I to 1.
It states you strike with that weapon at I1.
So a Banshee with P.Axe, would be I10 (for Pile In) that swings at I1.

Weird, I know.

Sadly true.

The old rule which has always been around and is now called 'unwieldy' has always been completely unchangeable. The Banshee masks make your Initiative 10. It doesn't matter what your Initiative is though, because 'Unwieldy' makes you strike at Initiative 1.

Sorry fellow Eldar players, if you want axes, you're striking at Initiative 1. Silly new power weapon rules. Should have just stayed the same.

To clarify, the mask is a 'set modifier', changing your actual stats. Unwieldy is just saying that's the Initiative that you strike at, regardless of your Initiative stat and any changes to it.

[keithsilva]

To clarify, the mask is a 'set modifier', changing your actual stats. Unwieldy is just saying that's the Initiative that you strike at, regardless of your Initiative stat and any changes to it.

Where in the rules does it state unwieldy ignores modifiers to initiative because it's not there. They would be I1 but for around one they would be I10 no where does it say they ignore any modifiers as it did in fifth edtion, in 5th it clearly stated it show me where it does and I would gladly accept it

[Aramel]

The rule for unweildly does not say that it ignores modifiers because it does not have to. In past editions you attacked in strict order of initiative. Now however, models fight in one of 10 "steps." Normally this is equal to your initiative, as the tules say. However, the rules state that both unwieldly and units that charged through cover attack at step 1, i.e. last.

In other words, unwieldly bypasses initiative entierly. A clearer way to read it would be: "the model attacks as if it had initative 1, irrespective of base or modified initiative" which is different than a stat modifying rule such as whips, banshee masks etc...

[daboarder]

I hate to say it guys but I think this is pretty clear now.

Yes your mask makes you I10 in the first round of combat, you use that I for Pile in, sweeping advance and the like, However your attacks are resolved at the I1 caused by unwieldy.

Its the same with Dante (If he gets ruled to have an Axe) He would still be I6 for hit and run and sweeping advance but he would attack at I1.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

You can be I10 all you want, you still strike at I1.

Come on guys, I thought we'd all learned this before:

If something is too good to be true, it is.

When something has an awesome way it can go, and any other way, I can guarantee it won't be awesome.

[Tynskel]

Spears sound good to me!

[Surendil]

You can be I10 all you want, you still strike at I1.

Come on guys, I thought we'd all learned this before:

If something is too good to be true, it is.

When something has an awesome way it can go, and any other way, I can guarantee it won't be awesome.

'xcept if we're talking about marines, of course. Regroup movement + normal movement + charge + such? Too good? not for a marine :D