Special Power "axes"

[Sierrahotel]

Wondering if anyone has run into this yet and found a good solution:

Dante's weapon, The Axe Mortalis, has a special listing calling it a master-crafted power weapon. The rule for power weapon says to look at the model to tell what type.

Following that logic, it would seem the Axe Mortalis is a Power Axe (+1S AP2, Unwieldy).

However, I've heard the argument that since it is a special weapon listed separately, it counts as the power sword.

See also Astorath's Executioner's Axe.

I'm, personally, leaning towards the weapon being a Power Axe (+1S, AP2). I'd be really sad about him striking at I1, but +1S and AP2 is kind of cool...

Has anyone seen anything or heard anything that might give a definitive answer? The FAQ was no help, which is either a glaring hole or GW thinks the solution is obvious and simple.

[Brandoncbaker]

I have posted the same question in an above post called weapon swap,but I've also been reading a very large post on Bolter and Chainsword on this topic. General opinion there's is that because Dante's weapon is "Maste crafted" and it's named that it qualifies as a special case as stated in the BRB,and is therefore a AP 3 weapon used at Int. it's gonna take a actual FAQ to straighten this out it would seem

[Wildeybeast]

The rulebook states, under 'unusual power weapons' p61:
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
As Dante's axe has rules covered by the rulebook and no unqiue ones, follow what it says in the rulebook - master crafted power axe. Welcome to the forum!

[DarkLink]

Master Crafted doesn't matter, I don't think. You can have a master crafted power maul, or whatever. It looks like the one exception to unusual special rules, and that's consistent with the FAQ's. And having a name for the weapon isn't a special rule. Unless there's anything else, you can't use the Unusual Power Weapon clause.

[Melon-neko]

The rulebook states, under 'unusual power weapons' p61:
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
As Dante's axe has rules covered by the rulebook and no unqiue ones, follow what it says in the rulebook - master crafted power axe. Welcome to the forum!

I agree with this.

OTOH, anyone i play with would let me use it as either one as long as I let them know before the game starts.

[Wildeybeast]

I agree with this.

OTOH, anyone i play with would let me use it as either one as long as I let them know before the game starts.

Yeah, I'm hoping my gaming buddies let me do the same. I modeled my marines up with axes cos I think they look cooler and I'm not stuck with a bunch of dudes striking last. Almost as bad as when Cruddace made Nid warriors all have to be armed the same, man that was a pain.

[DarkLink]

I've had to re-arm so many old metal GK models...

[Brandoncbaker]

And your comment about having a Master Crafted Power maul in the case of Lemartes. GW clarified that one in the FAQs, what exactaly it was. Also see Kharns FAQ in the Chaos section,where GW also has made clarification.both supporting the ideal that GW may view Dante's weapon is Special,and therefore AP3 @ Int 4.

On a side note, wouldn't he be great with a axe if he was in a squad of Sang Guard..a nice little variety.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I was wondering about that.

[Nachodragon]

TL: DR
Dante's weapon is described as an axe, therefore, it is an axe.


And your comment about having a Master Crafted Power maul in the case of Lemartes. GW clarified that one in the FAQs, what exactaly it was. Also see Kharns FAQ in the Chaos section,where GW also has made clarification.both supporting the ideal that GW may view Dante's weapon is Special,and therefore AP3 @ Int 4.

On a side note, wouldn't he be great with a axe if he was in a squad of Sang Guard..a nice little variety.

They had to clarify what Kharn's axe was because it has special rules. It could have been argued to be something else otherwise.

Lemartes does not say what it is anywhere. They had to say this is a power maul.

Dante's weapon clearly says AXE, therefore, it is an axe. master crafted does not have any bearing on it having special melee rules.

Also, the rules state to look at the model for what type of weapon they have, clearly, Dante has an axe.

Do whatever you want in a friendly game, but know this will be an axe in any tournament.

[Brandoncbaker]

The term axe is only in its name,which also confers its status as unique,but the rules in the BA codex clearly state that it is a powe weapon. The BRB then says that a power weapon which is unique,master crafted making it so, is treated as being a AP3 power weapon. Just my opinion,and until its clarified as good as any. As a matter of fact as I see it,there's more support to it being a AP3 Weapon than there is otherwise

[daboarder]

Here is your answer, Dante's weapon was not FAQ'd, It is a "master crafted power weapon", FAQ directs you to follow the rules in the rulebook, rulebook states...


If the models wargear says it has a power weapon that has NO FURTHER special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has...

Ergo Dante's axe is not an axe, it is a unique power weapon like the glaive encarmine and is therefore AP3.

[Nachodragon]

You forgot the last half of the sentence..."if it is a sword or dagger, it's a power sword, if it's an axe or halberd it's a power axe...". Master crafted is not unique. The Unusual Power Weapon is for items like Kharn's axe.

The rulebook is trying to go more WYSIWYG. Dante's axe is an axe. Glaive encarmine is actually the more ambiguous entry. From the box, I would say you have 2 axes and 3 swords, that is how they are modeled.

[daboarder]

You forgot the last half of the sentence..."if it is a sword or dagger, it's a power sword, if it's an axe or halberd it's a power axe...". Master crafted is not unique. The Unusual Power Weapon is for items like Kharn's axe.

The rulebook is trying to go more WYSIWYG. Dante's axe is an axe. Glaive encarmine is actually the more ambiguous entry. From the box, I would say you have 2 axes and 3 swords, that is how they are modeled.

And your ignoring the first part, You do not continue on if the weapon has further special rules, dante's axe has further special rules.

like this,

Dante has "master crafted power weapon"
Dante's Power weapon has further special rules,
Therefore dante's power weapon cannot follow the "look to model" premise as it DOES NOT have no further special rules,
Therefore Dante's axe falls under "unique" weapons.

master crafted doesn't NEED to be unique it is a special rule.

[Nachodragon]

Lemartes says it is a master crafted power weapon. They ruled it a power maul. Because who knows what a Blood Crozius actually is! Dante has an Axe. It is a power weapon and it is master crafted. But it is an axe. there are no special rules for the weapon.

Asotrath's axe is actually an AP3 weapon. It has special rules that are unique to it.

"If the model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has; if it is a sword or dagger, it's a power sword, if it's an axe or halberd it's a power axe.."

The next section talks of Unusual Power Weapons and assigning it an AP of 3. The section you have referenced does not back up the axe not being an axe. Master-crafted does not designate Unique. Astorath's axe and Kharn's axe are unique rules.

[daboarder]

Lemartes says it is a master crafted power weapon. They ruled it a power maul. Because who knows what a Blood Crozius actually is! Dante has an Axe. It is a power weapon and it is master crafted. But it is an axe. there are no special rules for the weapon.

Asotrath's axe is actually an AP3 weapon. It has special rules that are unique to it.

"If the model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has; if it is a sword or dagger, it's a power sword, if it's an axe or halberd it's a power axe.."

The next section talks of Unusual Power Weapons and assigning it an AP of 3. The section you have referenced does not back up the axe not being an axe. Master-crafted does not designate Unique. Astorath's axe and Kharn's axe are unique rules.

Emphasis mine.

The ruling on lemartes has no bearing on this argument, they changed it in the FAQ otherwise it too would fall under this rule, they did not change dante's axe therefore it still has further special rules

hell its not even twisting the wording it straight up says you only look to the model if it has no further special rules

[Nachodragon]

Ok, so if we go with your theory. The PW has special rules. Ok, the entry does not actually state what it is, just a power weapon. So, we need to go to the Unusual Power Weapons area. So, does it have unique rules? No. Master-crafted is not a unique close combat rule. Ok, well, now what? How do we tell what it is? Oh wait, the prior section told me I should look at the model. Well, clearly, Dante has an Axe. So, I guess Dante has a Master Crafted Power Axe. Yay!

This is partially GW's fault for confusing words again. They use 'special rules' to actually mean 'Unique rules'. They forgot they had a section called special rules. I would hope they would learn their lesson but the more things change the more... well, you get the idea.

[Bean]

And your ignoring the first part, You do not continue on if the weapon has further special rules, dante's axe has further special rules.

like this,

Dante has "master crafted power weapon"
Dante's Power weapon has further special rules,
Therefore dante's power weapon cannot follow the "look to model" premise as it DOES NOT have no further special rules,
Therefore Dante's axe falls under "unique" weapons.

master crafted doesn't NEED to be unique it is a special rule.

You're half right. If you go by this rule, you're right. However, earlier posters have also accurately applied another rule in the same section, which illustrates an interesting gap in the rules.

The first rule is, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has..."

The second rule is, "If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."


At this point, the gap should be obvious:

Dante's wargear does not say that it has a power weapon which has no further special rules (as noted, he has a power weapon, but it does have a further special rule--master-crafted). Therefore, you don't look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has.

However, Dante's power weapon does not have its own unique close combat rules, so you don't treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Neither rule applies to Dante's axe, because both rules only apply to weapons matching a specific description, and Dante's axe fits neither.

So, both of you are kinda right and kinda wrong, and the rules as written don't actually offer a resolution for Dante's axe.

If it were me, I think I'd house rule it as a master-crafted power axe. I think that the "further special rules" in the first rule probably is meant to refer to the same sort of "unique close combat rules" to which the second rule refers.

[Brandoncbaker]

Lemartes says it is a master crafted power weapon. They ruled it a power maul. Because who knows what a Blood Crozius actually is! Dante has an Axe. It is a power weapon and it is master crafted. But it is an axe. there are no special rules for the weapon..

Your right it is listed in BA codex as being Master Crafted. Master Crafted is in the Special Rules section of the Rulebook.soooo?

[daboarder]

lemartes is irrelevant, These FAQ contain rules changes (see typhus) they choose to change the rules for lemartes but not the rules for Dante.

[Nachodragon]

lemartes is irrelevant, These FAQ contain rules changes (see typhus) they choose to change the rules for lemartes but not the rules for Dante.

That doesn't even make sense. They did make a lot of changes. Lemartes is not irrelevant. His entry is exactly the same as Dante for his Wargear. The only difference is the name. Dante's actually says Axe. Lemartes does not say, sword, axe, maul, or lance.

Typhus also didn't say sword, axe, maul or lance. It is a scythe. To fit that in with the current rules, they made it an axe.

As I mentioned before, Glaive Encarmine is the more vague entry. What are they? They are a two-handed master crafted power weapon. I say they are what you model them as, they could be either an axe or sword.

Astorath's entry is clearly an AP3 weapon. It has unique rules. I would say it is an axe, but the rulebook states if it has a unique rule then I treat it as AP3.

[Brandoncbaker]

The rule book doesn't specify "unique rule" it says "special rule" which master crafted is

[daboarder]

Nachodragon, Quote the rulebook, the only rule you can quote tells us to NOT look to the model IF IT HAS SPECIAL RULES.

[Bean]

The rule book doesn't specify "unique rule" it says "special rule" which master crafted is

Actually it uses both. One in one place, one in the other. Read my last post. I quote both rules, and explain the problem quite clearly.

[Nachodragon]

You are clearly reading the Unique Power Weapon rules as that is the only place that says to treat it as AP3. No where in that entry does it say anything about special rules. It specifies Unique Rules. Master-Crafted it not a unique rule. It is a special rule. So... by your definition, and @Bean, this weapon and many others, apparently fall through the cracks. The way to rule this is by looking at the model and seeing what weapon they are using.

Dante has an axe.

[Brandoncbaker]

The Unique rule statement is under the rule titled unusual power weapons.which I believe is in place to cower weapons such as the Glaive Encarmine

[daboarder]

You are clearly reading the Unique Power Weapon rules as that is the only place that says to treat it as AP3. No where in that entry does it say anything about special rules. It specifies Unique Rules. Master-Crafted it not a unique rule. It is a special rule. So... by your definition, and @Bean, this weapon and many others, apparently fall through the cracks. The way to rule this is by looking at the model and seeing what weapon they are using.

Dante has an axe.

No I am reading the rule on page 61, title (Types of Power Weapons), second paragraph, first sentence.

In fact YOU quoted the rule earlier. NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES

It NEVER mentions unique.

[Brandoncbaker]

You are clearly reading the Unique Power Weapon rules as that is the only place that says to treat it as AP3. No where in that entry does it say anything about special rules...

I'll quote the book.. In the power weapons section on page 61, sub section Types of Power Weapons. Second paragraph.

" if a models wargear says it has a power weapon(which Dante's does) which has no further SPECIAL RULES.

[Nachodragon]

The Unique rule statement is under the rule titled unusual power weapons.which I believe is in place to cower weapons such as the Glaive Encarmine

Glaive and The Axe of Mortalis have almost the same entry. Only difference is the Glaive says two-handed. The Unusual Power Weapon entry is for Astorath's weapon and Kharn's weapon, and all those that do more than just being a power weapon. Master-Crafted is not unique.

[Nachodragon]

No I am reading the rule on page 61, title (Types of Power Weapons), second paragraph, first sentence.

In fact YOU quoted the rule earlier. NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES

It NEVER mentions unique.

Where do you apply the AP3? It is not in that section. What type of weapon does Dante have by your interpretation? What is the AP? What other special rules does it gain? That section does not tell you to give it the AP3, that is the next section that does not apply to Dante's axe.

Also, I never said that section mentioned unique, but on the same page, the Unusual Power Weapons DOES mention unique.

[Tynskel]

Emphasis mine.

The ruling on lemartes has no bearing on this argument, they changed it in the FAQ otherwise it too would fall under this rule, they did not change dante's axe therefore it still has further special rules

hell its not even twisting the wording it straight up says you only look to the model if it has no further special rules

It goes further than this, the FAQ says follow the rulebook rules, unless noted in the FAQ.

Lemartes' weapon looks like a maul. However, it has unique special rules (Master Crafted Power Weapon) so, therefore, it would be unique. GW choose to clarify this.

[daboarder]

And they choose not too for dante supporting that interpretation.

[Tynskel]

Where do you apply the AP3? It is not in that section. What type of weapon does Dante have by your interpretation? What is the AP? What other special rules does it gain? That section does not tell you to give it the AP3, that is the next section that does not apply to Dante's axe.

Also, I never said that section mentioned unique, but on the same page, the Unusual Power Weapons DOES mention unique.

Unique implies one of a kind, which of course, the Axe Mortalis is a one of a kind axe.

I think you are having issues with 'no further special rules' and are stretching 'master crafted' to not be a 'special rule'. I am not sure how you can conclude that 'master crafted' is not a special rule, let alone, not be 'no further special rules'.

Yes we know it is an axe. However, the 'Axe Mortalis' is not a generic power weapon axe. The power weapon axe I gave my Sgt. with a plasma pistol is a Power Axe by the new definition of the rules.

[Nachodragon]

You cannot apply the AP3 to these weapon without using the Unusual Power Weapon Rule. NONE OF THESE WEAPONS HAVE UNIQUE RULES! This section does not specify special rules, it specifies Unique Rules. Naming, while it can be unique, does not denote Unique Rules. In fact, it has the same rules as another weapon, therefore; it is not unique. So, we have to go back to the previous entry to see how to classify the weapon. We need to look at the model and see what weapon it has. Dante is wielding an axe.


Also, are you all going to tell me that FAQ's always make sense? Or that they did not miss something?

Apply some logic to this and point out, via the rules, how you come up with the AP3 and that his weapon is not an axe.

[Nachodragon]

The power weapon axe I gave my Sgt. with a plasma pistol is a Power Axe by the new definition of the rules.

This is perfectly acceptable if the entry listed power weapon and not power sword. So, your Sgt. has a power axe. Why do you think they included looking at the model to see what they are wielding.

[Tynskel]

You cannot apply the AP3 to these weapon without using the Unusual Power Weapon Rule. NONE OF THESE WEAPONS HAVE UNIQUE RULES! This section does not specify special rules, it specifies Unique Rules. Naming, while it can be unique, does not denote Unique Rules. In fact, it has the same rules as another weapon, therefore; it is not unique. So, we have to go back to the previous entry to see how to classify the weapon. We need to look at the model and see what weapon it has. Dante is wielding an axe.


Also, are you all going to tell me that FAQ's always make sense? Or that they did not miss something?

Apply some logic to this and point out, via the rules, how you come up with the AP3 and that his weapon is not an axe.

I am glad you are fussing over the Unique Rule part, but, you cannot focus on only ONE part of the rulebook, you have to take everything into account. In this case, forgetting the 'NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES'.

1) is master crafted a special rule
yes
2) is axe mortalis a power weapon
yes

Uh oh.
A power weapon with more than one rule!

Oh, I get it!

It is Master Crafted Power Weapon, NOT Power Weapon Master Crafted.
See, Daboarder, the rulebook rule states 'no FURTHER special rules' (emphasis my own). The Master Crafted comes BEFORE Power Weapon, so CLEARLY it does not count as a 'further' special rule!

Lemartes really got buffed, by the way. Nevermind AP4... when he takes a wound he has: 6 attacks, +1 for 2 weapons, +1 for Rage, and +1 for Impact Hits. Then his strength is 6,+2 for Maul, and +1 for Furious Charge. Yes! Str9 on the charge with 9 Attacks. Bwahahahahhaha!! Talk about a rage monster!

[Nachodragon]

I am glad you are fussing over the Unique Rule part, but, you cannot focus on only ONE part of the rulebook, you have to take everything into account. In this case, forgetting the 'NO FURTHER SPECIAL RULES'.

1) is master crafted a special rule
yes
2) is axe mortalis a power weapon
yes

Uh oh.
A power weapon with more than one rule!
Yes, you have missed the point yet again. Where do you apply the AP3, not in this section, but the Unusual Power Weapon section.
Oh, I get it!

It is Master Crafted Power Weapon, NOT Power Weapon Master Crafted.
See, Daboarder, the rulebook rule states 'no FURTHER special rules' (emphasis my own). The Master Crafted comes BEFORE Power Weapon, so CLEARLY it does not count as a 'further' special rule!


Ok, so.. how is Master-crafted unique? Cause I am taking all the rules in to consideration. Since, the axe does not contain unique RULES it is not AP3. I have never said it does not contain a special rule. Special does not equal unique.

[Tynskel]

Ok, so.. how is Master-crafted unique? Cause I am taking all the rules in to consideration. Since, the axe does not contain unique RULES it is not AP3. I have never said it does not contain a special rule. Special does not equal unique.


You are getting red! I can see the anger welling up inside you! Release your anger in a game of 40k. However, Axe Mortalis is AP3.

I am sorry, Master Crafted IS a 'further' special rule, and the rules clearly state 'no further special rules'.



To make even things clearer: Master Crafted Weapons are RARE. Hellz! Even the Captain of the Blood Angels can't even get a Master Crafted Power Weapon.

[Brandoncbaker]

But special rule does trigger the omission of the look to see what it is rule.

[daboarder]

Ok, so.. how is Master-crafted unique? Cause I am taking all the rules in to consideration. Since, the axe does not contain unique RULES it is not AP3. I have never said it does not contain a special rule. Special does not equal unique.

Because you can only ever have 1 axe mortalis weapon in your army regardless of detachments, in that sense its more unique than a relic blade.

[Nachodragon]

You are getting red! I can see the anger welling up inside you! Release your anger in a game of 40k. However, Axe Mortalis is AP3.
How? Master-crafted is not unique. To get AP3 the weapon needs unique rules.

I am sorry, Master Crafted IS a 'further' special rule, and the rules clearly state 'no further special rules'.
Yes, not in question


To make even things clearer: Master Crafted Weapons are RARE. Hellz! Even the Captain of the Blood Angels can't even get a Master Crafted Power Weapon.

Rare does not equal unique. Special does not equal unique.

From Dictionary -
u·nique   [yoo-neek]
adjective
existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.

AND, when would you look at the model to see what weapon it is wielding?

[Nachodragon]

Because you can only ever have 1 axe mortalis weapon in your army regardless of detachments, in that sense its more unique than a relic blade.

Dante is unique, but his axe, while having a unique name, is not. I can name my pen 'The mighty pen of Dragon Slaying" but it does not make it any different than the 7 other Bic pens next to it.

[Brandoncbaker]

You would look to see what the model has if the listing was a generic power weapon

[Nachodragon]

You would look to see what the model has if the listing was a generic power weapon

Yes.
Now, Dante's weapon has a special rule, but it is not unique. So, what AP value does it have?

[Brandoncbaker]

Well, seeing that his power weapon has the special rule master crafted it is AP3 IMO

[daboarder]

Dante is unique, but his axe, while having a unique name, is not. I can name my pen 'The mighty pen of Dragon Slaying" but it does not make it any different than the 7 other Bic pens next to it.

Answer me this.

How many axe mortalis can you take in an army?

That's what I thought, therefore it is unique.

If you want to bring pens and the like into then NO models are unique becaus there are multiples of them out their in the world. Then we can gake it to the next level and argue that ALL weapons are unique because they all have unique quatum states regardless oh how similar they may appear...see that is a silly train of though and clearly not what be writers had in mind.

In fact their are probably less master crafted weapons in the game nowadays than you can take relic blades in a marine army at 2k.

No there is only one axe mortalis, or two if two blood angel players face off, therefore it is unique.

[Nachodragon]

Well, seeing that his power weapon has the special rule master crafted it is AP3 IMO

And, I see where you got that, but, it is does not have unique combat rules. So, this would not be the case.

[Tynskel]

Because you can only ever have 1 axe mortalis weapon in your army regardless of detachments, in that sense its more unique than a relic blade.

yeah, I was going to bring this up! There are TONS of relic blades, TONS of Nemesis Falchons, Swords, Halberds, etc. How is that UNIQUE?

No, the 'no further special rule' is the key. Master Crafted IS a unique special rule: Very limited select weapons gain this rule.

[Tynskel]

And, I see where you got that, but, it is does not have unique combat rules. So, this would not be the case.

But it does have Unique Combat Rules:
Do Power Weapons have Master Crafted? No.

Does the Axe Mortalis have Master Crafted, Yes!

Seems unique to me!

If the rulebook had stated that Master Crafted is 'not a unique special rule', or stated that "master crafting does not apply to 'no further special rules'" I would be on your side of this argument. However, the rule only states 'no further special rules'. Master Crafting IS unique.

[Nachodragon]

But it does have Unique Combat Rules:
Do Power Weapons have Master Crafted? No.

Does the Axe Mortalis have Master Crafted, Yes!

Seems unique to me!

If the rulebook had stated that Master Crafted is 'not a unique special rule', or stated that "master crafting does not apply to 'no further special rules'" I would be on your side of this argument. However, the rule only states 'no further special rules'. Master Crafting IS unique.

This is just down right ignorant. Lemartes has a master-crafted power weapon. Glaive is a master-crafted power weapon. It seems there are more than you are leading on.

Master-crafted is special, not unique. Kharn's rules and Astorath's weapons have unique combat rules. Those are AP3. Although, they FAQ'd Kharn's to be a power axe.

[Brandoncbaker]

As a mater of fact.Dantes weapon is the only master crafted weapon in the entire aside from Lemartes who also has a Mastercrafted Power Weapon by rule,but GW FAQd this to be a Maul

Correction.it also seems that Sang Guard does also..my bad

[Nachodragon]

As a mater of fact.Dantes weapon is the only master crafted weapon in the entire aside from Lemartes who also has a Mastercrafted Power Weapon by rule,but GW FAQd this to be a Maul

Glaive of encarmine.

[Bean]

Dante's axe is a power weapon with further special rules--it has master-crafted--thus, you don't look at the model to figure out what type of weapon it is.

Dante's axe is not a power weapon with unique special rules--master-crafted is not a unique special rule--so you don't treat it as a master-crafted, AP 3 melee weapon.

The rules don't tell you what Dante's axe is. The rules give you two methods for figuring out what particularly power weapons do, and neither option applies to Dante's axe.

This is pretty obvious, and very straightforward. I'm not sure why you guys are still arguing. The fact is, you're all wrong.

[Nachodragon]

Dante's axe is a power weapon with further special rules--it has master-crafted--thus, you don't look at the model to figure out what type of weapon it is.

Dante's axe is not a power weapon with unique special rules--master-crafted is not a unique special rule--so you don't treat it as a master-crafted, AP 3 melee weapon.

The rules don't tell you what Dante's axe is. The rules give you two methods for figuring out what particularly power weapons do, and neither option applies to Dante's axe.

This is pretty obvious, and very straightforward. I'm not sure why you guys are still arguing. The fact is, you're all wrong.

While I agree with you and the fact that GW has failed this rule, this does not help. How do you classify the weapon?

I have asserted you should look at the weapon and declare what it is. Also, the fact that it says Axe in the name, very heavily implies this is an axe.

[Bean]

While I agree with you and the fact that GW has failed this rule, this does not help. How do you classify the weapon?

I have asserted you should look at the weapon and declare what it is. Also, the fact that it says Axe in the name, very heavily implies this is an axe.

Oh, I agree. As a house rule, calling it a master-crafted power axe seems most appropriate.

[daboarder]

Glaive of encarmine.

Nope, those are master crafted 2-handed power weapons completely different.

answer me something, how do you determine the AP of a relic blade? you don't get relic axes, spears or swords but they don't have any "unique" rules they are simple S6 power weapons, strength modification is hardly unique. simple answer the word "unique" is so subjective that it should never have been used but given the lack of AP designations for Nemesis force weapons and relic blades that it refers to weapons not listed below with rule specific to the codex, ergo dante's axe is unique as it does NOT fit any of the below description.

[Nachodragon]

Nope, those are master crafted 2-handed power weapons completely different.

answer me something, how do you determine the AP of a relic blade? you don't get relic axes, spears or swords but they don't have any "unique" rules they are simple S6 power weapons, strength modification is hardly unique. simple answer the word "unique" is so subjective that it should never have been used but given the lack of AP designations for Nemesis force weapons and relic blades that it refers to weapons not listed below with rule specific to the codex, ergo dante's axe is unique as it does NOT fit any of the below description.

I would follow any of the Relic blades would be what they are modeled as, though, given the fluff they should probably have FAQ'd it.

Also, unique is not at all subjective. If you want to break it down to its essence, it is anything that is not covered under special rules. I would also rule that most of the NFWs fall under the Unusual Force Weapons. Only one that doesn't matter would be the NF sword, same AP. NF Hammer is covered in it's rules. Halberd has unique rules. NF Falchions and staves would be AP3.

[daboarder]

again I raise the point of qunatum states indicating that no other object in the universe can have the same quantum state as another object therefore highlighting that YES unique is one of the most subjective words in the english language. It depends entirely upon the context, what is the context for the unique weapon rule? is it the game? is it the individual codex? it is not specified.

Would you really stand across the table and argue that grey knights are super special snowflakes with their halberds but space marines get stuck with generic rules with their relic blades?

[Tynskel]

the simplest interpretation is still the 'no further special rules'.
This resolves all issues:
There would be no arguing over 'two handed ≠ unique' or 'master crafted = unique' or 'str 6 doesn't change the weapon type'.

'no further special rules' opens up the case that any weapon that has an extra rule is AP3 unless stated otherwise. This is also consistent with the FAQ, which states that use the main rulebook unless stated in the FAQ.

[Bean]

the simplest interpretation is still the 'no further special rules'.
This resolves all issues:
There would be no arguing over 'two handed ≠ unique' or 'master crafted = unique' or 'str 6 doesn't change the weapon type'.

'no further special rules' opens up the case that any weapon that has an extra rule is AP3 unless stated otherwise. This is also consistent with the FAQ, which states that use the main rulebook unless stated in the FAQ.

Given that we're beyond arguing the raw, and into arguing the consequences of possible house rules, this would basically make it impossible for there to be a master-crafted power axe. Is that an acceptable consequence?

[TJ_DeOliveira]

Unusual Power Weapons -

Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an ap3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Master-crafted is not a unique rule, as many different models have it (sanguinary guard, honor guard, etc.) that's like saying fleet or rending is unique since master crafted is a usr now. Unique rules would be things like Daemon Weapons, the Executioner's Axe, the Fist of Dorn, etc.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, master crafted seems like a loophole that got overlooked. As it stands, it looks like it technically falls under the unusual rule, but as mentioned it doesn't quite seem right. Plus there's the FAQ ruling that croizius are master crafted mauls, right? That would imply that master crafting comes after you figure out what weapon you've got.

[Tynskel]

Given that we're beyond arguing the raw, and into arguing the consequences of possible house rules, this would basically make it impossible for there to be a master-crafted power axe. Is that an acceptable consequence?

What in transactions are you talking about?

How does - master crafted = non existant? The FAQ would state power axe. Just as it stated the Power Maul is Master Crafted for Lemartes.

The simpilest interpretation of the rulebook is that any power weapon with a rule attached (eg master crafting) is an 'further' rule. No further special rules means that the power weapon is just a flat AP3.

There's no squabbling from this!

Otherwise you open the can of worms: What is 'unique'? Two-handed? Oh is it when a weapon has 2 special rules (like blade encarmine) that means it is 'unique'. Or does it require more? Relic Blades are just str 6, is that 'unique', if two handed is not. It isn't a drastic diversion from the rules. I mean, Kharn's axe is an axe.

All of this is very clear if you stick to the FAQ stating unless stated in the FAQ, use rulebook. And the Axe Mortalis has 'further' special rules, but is not mentioned in the FAQ, like the Blood Croziuz.

[Brandoncbaker]

That's about a concise and clear interpretation there is.

Anything beyond that is pure speculation. There is no word play,or shenanigans.it is what it is

[Brandoncbaker]

What in transactions are you talking about?..


Hilarious BTW

[Sierrahotel]

Wow, 7 pages to catch up on. Cool.

Apologies, but I started to skip some posts towards the end of page 3. At any rate, all good stuff.

At least I know I'm not alone in my confusion. It seems to be a really simple problem (no matter which line of logic you use or which side you fall on), but neither answer is ultimately satisfying (at least to me).

Daboarder and others make good arguments, as do people who disagree with them.

Astorath's Axe is clearly the AP3 "unusual power weapon" so that half of my question is resolved.

I suppose the other half of my question is answered concerning Dante's Axe too. My buddies and I will likely just have to pick an interpretation we can agree on until there is a definitive decision by GW.

It appears there is no real consensus in the community-at-large thus far, which is a big help oddly enough. So thank you all for the input thus far.

[Wildeybeast]

The simpilest interpretation of the rulebook is that any power weapon with a rule attached (eg master crafting) is an 'further' rule. No further special rules means that the power weapon is just a flat AP3.

This might be simple but it is incorrect, as Bean has already correctly and clearly pointed out. And the definition of unique is fairly straightforward and hardly a can of worms.

unique

Pronunciation: /juːˈniːk/
adjective

being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else:
the situation was unique in British politics


A weapon's rule could be classed as unique either by having a unique name or a unique effect and you could possibly make a case for containing a unique combination of other rules, though that would be pushing it IMO. Dante's axe is none of these and thus clearly does not fall under the unusual power weapons rule, though does not fall under the standard power weapon rules either. House rule it however you want, there is little point in arguing over it. Master crafted power axe seem most sensible.

[Tynskel]

See, you are opening the can of worms? What about Blade Encarmine? Are they unique? Two-Handed is not a 'unique' attribute, neither is 'Master Crafted'? Or are you stating that the combination of the two is the cutoff. A weapon at a higher strength is a very COMMON attribute, too. So, does that mean that Relic Blades are not 'unique'.

What I am pointing out is that the interpretation that counts 'Axe Mortalis' as a power axe is a very murky and unclear approach. UNLESS one approaches from the simplest term, ie. 'no further special rules', which completely resolves all weapons issues.
There is no problem when interpreting the rule this way.
Clear, cut, dry, and consistent. As well as follows both the FAQ and Rulebook rules.

[Col.Straken]

To open a whole new can of worms, seeing as Dante didn't get FAQ'd to be rubbish (like Kharn). How does a Wolf Priests Crozius work? Most other Crozius'' have been FAQ'd as mauls, but the Rune Priest's hasn't, and the codex just Brakets it as a power weapon. So if I model my Wolf Priest to have a Bladed Crozius does that make it a Sword? Or if it is an Axe looking Crozius does that make it an Axe?

[daboarder]

Wolf priests are easy there are no furhter special rules attatched to the model therefore we look to see what it looks like.

[Sierrahotel]

Taking a look at the FAQ again, I notice the change to the Blood Crozius (Lemartes) has a very similar wording. As I type this I recall Lemartes coming up in the previous pages and so this may be a repeated point.

The wording is almost identical under the new Blood Crozius rule and the printed Mortalis rule. "[Weapon] is a master-crafted power [maul/weapon]."

Now with the Crozius they specify power-maul. Likely because it is not clear that it looks like a power maul. That might suggest that they felt no need to specify power axe in Dante's case because it is very clearly an Axe.

I'm not sure Master-crafted is a "further special rule" even though it is a further special rule. Comparing to the Executioner's axe, the "further special rule" is that it strikes at S6 and re-rolls successful invuln saves, causing it to be an unusual power weapon this making it AP3, strikes at I.

Until GW makes at definite call here, I'd probably lean towards calling it a Master-crafted power axe. Which is kind of sad, imo. Having your 225pt Warlord striking last in almost all challenges and combats is a pretty significant problem, despite the increased strength. It would suggest to me a more anti-vehicle role (S7/AP2 with furious charge), or perhaps fighting Shooty Termies (at least he'd go simultaneously with power fists). I can't imagine the Death mask really making a difference with all the high Ld models out there.


I usually run him in an Honor Guard with melta/infernus pistols, so the Anti-armor role isn't bad. Putting him in a Sanguinary Guard unit with plasma pistols might be a cool unit of AP2 killers. I've always enjoyed his surgical strike ability and turning elites into scoring troops (freeing up more elite slots) is never bad. So I'll probably keep using him. Still, I:1...ugh.

[rabscutle]

While I agree with the I:1 being a thing, if it is an axe, he is AP 2... that shouldn't be over looked.

Also, anything he is in a challenge with will have to beat AP 2, and pretty much all of those weapons are Unwieldy too.

It is a lousy trade off, but you also have the benefit that he can hang back, out of the combat until the I:1 phase and then come in like a clean up hitter to clear what your Sanguinary Guard hadn't already.

[Tynskel]

I am not thinking about that... I frankly don't care if Dante's Weapon is an Axe or not, because Str5 AP2 (6 if furious charge) and the bonus to penetrations is good. Not to mention, he can stand up to terminators, and he wears Artificer Armor, so it isn't much of an issue for opponents with standard Power Weapons. Dante will win in most situations.

What I am thinking about is everything else!

What are Blade Encarmines---- They are Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapons. Are they just 'what it looks like'?
Where do you draw the line?
Relic Blades are just str6 two handed, there are many weapons that add str bonuses, is that 'unique'?

[Brandoncbaker]

The point that uses the term unique weapon to describe Dante's weapon is moot. That classification is in a entirely different rule set. The rule that come into play here is wether or not Dante's codex described power weapon has special rules.It does,and the BRB says it is ,therefore AP3 and I. Reading past that point is more rule bending to say it isn't.

The unique weapon section is there to addresse weapons that dont fit into the other determined classifications.

[Tynskel]

The point that uses the term unique weapon to describe Dante's weapon is moot. That classification is in a entirely different rule set. The rule that come into play here is wether or not Dante's codex described power weapon has special rules.It does,and the BRB says it is ,therefore AP3 and I. Reading past that point is more rule bending to say it isn't.

The unique weapon section is there to addresse weapons that dont fit into the other determined classifications.

so, like Boneswords?

[Nachodragon]

so, like Boneswords?

Boneswords are not power weapons. They are completely separate type of weapon altogether and their rules mesh completely with 6th.

[daboarder]

yup they ignore armour saves but get no bonus's against vehicles, unless they are on a MC in which case they become AP2 thereby gaining benefits to damage armour.

[Col.Straken]

Wolf priests are easy there are no furhter special rules attatched to the model therefore we look to see what it looks like.

My point was that all other Crozius' have been FAQ'd to be Mauls, but they haven't.

If you are ignoring the other FAQ's for this weapon then you should ignore other FAQ's for Dantes weapon. The problem is then GW's wording, jumping from Special to Unique. The easiest this would be to ignore both word and read it as "if the weapon has no further rules". While I hate this idea (because if Kharn gets screwed so should everyone) it seems like a fair, and sensible outcome.

[Tynskel]

Personally, I wouldn't mind master crafted weapons being what they look like. Dante, for example, wouldn't be hurt too much. He's wearing 2+ armor and has 4+ invulnerable. And he would be Str 6 on the charge.

Where it really gets me excited would be Sanguinary Guard. Do you guys realize all the cool looking weapons you would want to model on the Sanguinary Guard? Spears with Bolters. Giant 2-handed Axes. Two-Handed Mauls.

Some of the 'iconic' images of the Emperor is a man in shining armor impaling Horus, the Snake, with a Spear.


However, as the rules stand, there is no way to determine a what is truly 'unique'. Because Unique = one of a kind, and Relic Blades are NOT one of a kind, nor are Blade Encarmines. We KNOW Axe Mortalis IS one of a kind. There would be no real method of determination, and therefore you need to default to 'no further special rules'.

[Nachodragon]

You are confusing fluff with rules. Sure, the axe is unique, but it does not have unique rules. Astorath's axe is both unique and has unique rules. Glaive encarmines can be modeled how ever you want. They come with two axes and three swords in the box!

[Archon Charybdis]

Given the dictionary definition of unique provided earlier, my interpretation would be that any weapon that includes additional rules and bonuses that don't conform to some USR or weapon type in the main rules (e.g. fleshbane, powerfist, etc.) constitutes a unique weapon. "What kind of weapon is a Relic Blade? What special rules does it use?" "It uses it's own unique Relic Blade rules."

If we assume that special rules already codified and spelled out in the BRB (BYB now? BDAB?) are enough to constitute a unique power weapon, than it's impossible for anybody with the option to buy a "master crafted power weapon" to buy anything other than a master crafted power sword. That seems patently absurd to me.

[Brandoncbaker]

Once again,to proceed to that point in the rules is incorrect.the classification of the weapon is satisfied within the first paragraph of the rule.

[gendoikari87]

I've had to re-arm so many old metal GK models...

why? they're Initiative 6, ap 3?

[gendoikari87]

And your ignoring the first part, You do not continue on if the weapon has further special rules, dante's axe has further special rules.

like this,

Dante has "master crafted power weapon"
Dante's Power weapon has further special rules,
Therefore dante's power weapon cannot follow the "look to model" premise as it DOES NOT have no further special rules,
Therefore Dante's axe falls under "unique" weapons.

master crafted doesn't NEED to be unique it is a special rule.

going by this frost axes are ap3 and strike at Imitative

[DarkLink]

why? they're Initiative 6, ap 3?

No, I mean back when the GK codex came out.

Beside, you never put Halberds on Strike Squads or Interceptors, only Purifiers, Paladins and Terminators. And, of course, you have to get Staves and Daemonhammers in there. That was a lot of work with metal models.

[gendoikari87]

No, I mean back when the GK codex came out.

Beside, you never put Halberds on Strike Squads or Interceptors, only Purifiers, Paladins and Terminators. And, of course, you have to get Staves and Daemonhammers in there. That was a lot of work with metal models.

ah yeah. I'm actually using GKT as secutors in my new Mechanicus counts as gaurd/GK army, thanks to these rules i'm going to be getting a lost quisitive looks as to why all my hammers are actually axes (Space marine Techmarine models as Terminator squad leaders with MC hammers)

[Tynskel]

You are confusing fluff with rules. Sure, the axe is unique, but it does not have unique rules. Astorath's axe is both unique and has unique rules. Glaive encarmines can be modeled how ever you want. They come with two axes and three swords in the box!

In no way I was confusing fluff with Rules.
Try reading what I actually stated: 'no further special rules'.

What I was saying is that it would be fun to have rules that worked with the weapons on the model.


Arrgh!
Why my captains still cannot get Blade Encarmine, while my Vanguard Sgt. can? :(

[The AKH]

going by this frost axes are ap3 and strike at Imitative

Except that the Space Wolf FAQ explicitly states otherwise.

[Sierrahotel]

I think I just found the answer.

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

So the axe is a unique weapon, putting it under the rules for Unusual power weapons, making it AP3 and striking at Initiative.

Glaives Encarmine may or may not also fall under this rule.

They are listed in a special entry for the Sanguinary Guard. They are not detailed in the Wargear section. However, more than just the SG can wield them.

[Brandoncbaker]

Never saw that, Great find..case closed!!!

[Chris*ta]

I think I just found the answer.

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

So the axe is a unique weapon, putting it under the rules for Unusual power weapons, making it AP3 and striking at Initiative.

Glaives Encarmine may or may not also fall under this rule.

They are listed in a special entry for the Sanguinary Guard. They are not detailed in the Wargear section. However, more than just the SG can wield them.

I hate to poke a sleeping bear, but this doesn't solve it.

This defines unique item. However, the BDAB (I'm using this contraction until someone comes out with a better one. Yay for whoever coined it earlier in the thread!) says a weapon with UNIQUE RULES.

So, let's all return to our corners and prepare for round 2!

I'm inclined to believe that GW intends it to be a master-crafted power axe, but I don't think anyone would have much trouble if you wanted to treat it as a master-crafted power sword.

Remember also that, as the rules stand, you could model your own counts-as-Dante and arm him with whichever power weapon you like.

It would've been really nice if GW had put this in the faq, but I think it's clear that master-crafted power weapons are meant to have a weapon type.

[Mesi]

Yes, lets get completely caught up on individual words which have no bearing on the context of the argument. Axe Mortalis is unique. Therefore is subject to the unique power weapons rule. If they wanted it to be a power axe they would have FAQ'd it like they did with Kharne.

The evidence to it being a standard AP3 power weapon is so overwhelming this argument is beyond stupid.

Master Crafted, rather you like it or not is in fact an additional special rule. So is 'two handed' They are listed specifically in the 'Special Rules' Section of the rulebook. Where is the debate in that?

"If the weapon has no further special rules..." This condition must be met in order to proceed to the next line. Since it is in fact not met, because master crafted is in fact a special rule. Regardless of your desires otherwise. It defaults to AP3.

The Codex itself says the Axe is a unique weapon and therefore follows the rules for unique Power Weapons.

Case in point, Kharnes axe is very obviously a unique weapon with unique rules. Also Lemartes, they very specifically verified what they wanted it to be. If they wanted Dante's axe to be AP2, thus negating his initiative of 6 which is arguably one of his best stats and effectively making him useless. Then they would have FAQ'd his axe to in fact be a power axe like they did with Kharne and a power maul with Lemartes.

The fact that they FAQ's Lemartes weapon points to the obvious conclusion that the rules would have suggested it was a normal power weapon at AP3 because of the master crafted special rule. But they wanted it to be a power maul making it an exception to the rules. Thus the FAQ.

There are literally three separate rules all saying it's an AP3 power weapon. And multiple FAQ examples proving the intent of these rules that state it's an AP3 weapon. This isn't even a debate anymore.

Those trying to argue in favor of it being a power axe really have no credible arguments. You are nitpicking over minute words and probing dictionary definitions in order to support your straw man arguments. When the rules are completely clear if you stop trying to read fine print that doesn't exist.

This does in fact imply that you will not have any generic master crafted power axes, mauls, spears ect. Which is largely irrelevant since you cannot add master crafted as an upgrade to a weapon anymore in any semi recent Codex. And if they want a piece of gear to be specialized as such they would FAQ it. Just as they did with Lemartes or state it specifically in new codex rules.

[Chris*ta]

Read p. 61 again. It does not mention unique weapons at all. It says weapons with unique rules.

It seems pretty clear to me (from the GK weapons) that they mean unique rules to mean rules that affect the S, I and (in new codexes) AP of the attack.

Also, you may note that I've said that I, and, I think, most people, would be happy for you to treat it as AP 3 S and I as wielder if you want.


There are literally three separate rules all saying it's an AP3 power weapon. And multiple FAQ examples proving the intent of these rules that state it's an AP3 weapon. This isn't even a debate anymore.

Those trying to argue in favor of it being a power axe really have no credible arguments. You are nitpicking over minute words and probing dictionary definitions in order to support your straw man arguments. When the rules are completely clear if you stop trying to read fine print that doesn't exist.

This is very clearly still a debate, or else they're would be a consensus. And that was my first post in this thread, so calm down on the accusations. Also, you seem to be using straw man incorrectly.

"Nitpicking over minute words". Like "unique". And "axe". ;)

[Chris*ta]

Oh yeah, and the argument that Lemartes weapon is specified in the FAQ I don't trust.

It's just as likely that GW left it out because a) they thought it was obvious that an axe is an axe b) they wanted to leave the option for player to have counts-as-Dantes armed with other weapons OR c) (and this is my favourite) they're GW and they left it out by accident. Wouldn't be the worst oversight in GW FAQ history.

[Mesi]

This is very clearly still a debate, or else they're would be a consensus. And that was my first post in this thread, so calm down on the accusations. Also, you seem to be using straw man incorrectly.

"Nitpicking over minute words". Like "unique". And "axe". ;)


There really isn't. The word Axe is largely irrelevant. Axe Mortalis is the weapons name. Unique Weapon/Rules can be interchanged at anytime, its GW after all. Just as 'special' and 'unique' by GW standards really can be interchanged at any given time. As well as practical application in the real world.

Thus you are nitpicking over insignificant interpretations of words in order to support your argument. Taking the words out of the context they are meant to be used in, which is the definition of a straw man argument.

And there is still zero debate about the condition in the Power Weapon rules itself. Master Crafted is a special rule. The weapon has additional special rules, this is not debatable at all.

There isn't a consensus because people are stubborn and refuse to use simple logic. It's human nature. But the rules are perfectly clear. These are not legal documents, it's GW. Stop trying to read the rules to the furthest extent of every single individual definition of each word to try and misconstrue the meaning.

The FAQs already out give supporting examples to how the rules are intended to work.

[Mesi]

Oh yeah, and the argument that Lemartes weapon is specified in the FAQ I don't trust.

It's just as likely that GW left it out because a) they thought it was obvious that an axe is an axe b) they wanted to leave the option for player to have counts-as-Dantes armed with other weapons OR c) (and this is my favourite) they're GW and they left it out by accident. Wouldn't be the worst oversight in GW FAQ history.


The singled out Kharn and Lemartes, and probably a couple others I haven't read every single FAQ yet, but are you suggesting they chose to leave out Dante, Glaive Encarmines, The Executioners Axe, ect? GW does often make oversights but leaving out that many would be quite a significant one. I have a little more faith in them then that.

[Chris*ta]

Thus you are nitpicking over insignificant interpretations of words in order to support your argument. Taking the words out of the context they are meant to be used in, which is the definition of a straw man argument.

That is not the definition of straw man. Not even close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man .

[Chris*ta]

The singled out Kharn and Lemartes, and probably a couple others I haven't read every single FAQ yet, but are you suggesting they chose to leave out Dante, Glaive Encarmines, The Executioners Axe, ect? GW does often make oversights but leaving out that many would be quite a significant one. I have a little more faith in them then that.

So, you ignored my options a and b.

And, glaive encarmines do not have unique rules, so are whatever they are modelled as.

Executioner's Axe has unique rules as I believe GW meant to define it (i.e. a weapon with rules that modify the S, I and AP).

[Mesi]

That is not the definition of straw man. Not even close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man .

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person A has position X.
Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:

1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]

4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.


See definition number two. "quoting words out of context" At least read what you're linking me before trying to say I'm wrong.

In this case people are taking the words unique, special, Axe Mortalis, out of context and using them to support their argument.

[Chris*ta]

There really isn't. The word Axe is largely irrelevant. Axe Mortalis is the weapons name. Unique Weapon/Rules can be interchanged at anytime, its GW after all. Just as 'special' and 'unique' by GW standards really can be interchanged at any given time. As well as practical application in the real world.

"The word axe is largely irrelevant" In an argument deciding whether or not the Axe Mortalis is an axe.

Special and unique can not be interchanged in the real world.

Also, I don't think 'unique weapon' and 'weapon with unique rules' can be interchanged at any time. They say different things.

[Mesi]

So, you ignored my options a and b.

And, glaive encarmines do not have unique rules, so are whatever they are modelled as.

Executioner's Axe has unique rules as I believe GW meant to define it (i.e. a weapon with rules that modify the S, I and AP).

You're trying to fit Unique rules into a very narrow definition. That's simply not the case. Any weapon that has multiple special rules is considered unique. Thus as a whole giving it unique special rules. Unique special rules do not mean a very specific rule that only applies to this weapon in this codex.

Glaives are unique, no other codex has them. They have multiple special rules, and are named unique weapons. Following the 'listed in unit entry' statement about what qualifies as a unique weapon. Unique weapon = unique rules, even if it's just a combination of multiple 'special rules'.

All Glaives are AP3 as well. As per the power weapon and Unique weapon rules. This debate is seriously silly now. You have no valid points anymore. The context of the rules is clear, seriously stop trying to take them out of context by accepting the narrowest definition of a word possible.

[Mesi]

"The word axe is largely irrelevant" In an argument deciding whether or not the Axe Mortalis is an axe.

Special and unique can not be interchanged in the real world.

Also, I don't think 'unique weapon' and 'weapon with unique rules' can be interchanged at any time. They say different things.

My child is special.
My child is unique.

In the real world, people will take both statements to mean the same thing. Why? Because in context they are the same thing, no one's going to bust out a dictionary and go no you're using that word wrong it very specifically means this. GW is the same way with their rules, its a rulebook written by a bunch of gamers. Not Websters Dictionary, or a team of Lawyers. The context is clear.

Again Axe Mortalis is the name of the weapon. It's entry very specifically states 'master crafted power weapon' Therefore, the word 'axe' has zero bearing on the weapons rules at all. If it was called 'Blade Mortalis' And was modeled as an axe, this wouldn't even be a topic of debate.

[Chris*ta]

2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

See definition number two. "quoting words out of context" At least read what you're linking me before trying to say I'm wrong.

In this case people are taking the words unique, special, Axe Mortalis, out of context and using them to support their argument.

Read the whole of point 2. (see fallacy of quoting out of context)

Also, I don't think that "the words unique, special, Axe Mortalis" have been taken out of context at all.

Also, remember that I've said that the rules would allow you to treat it as a power sword (i.e. AP 3) if modelled appropriately and I'd be willing for you to treat it as a power sword even if not modelled appropriately.

[Chris*ta]

Any weapon that has multiple special rules is considered unique. Thus as a whole giving it unique special rules.

Doesn't the axe mortalis only have one special rule?

Also, you still haven't addressed points a and b

[Chris*ta]

My child is special.
My child is unique.

In the real world, people will take both statements to mean the same thing. Why? Because in context they are the same thing, no one's going to bust out a dictionary and go no you're using that word wrong it very specifically means this. GW is the same way with their rules, its a rulebook written by a bunch of gamers. Not Websters Dictionary, or a team of Lawyers. The context is clear.

Hardly "very specifically". The words mean different things. Unique: One of a kind. Special: Slightly out of the ordinary.

And GW has no history of using "unique rules" to mean the same thing as "special rules" anywhere else.

Also to me those two sentences mean entirely different things.
"My child is special."
My child has an intellectual disability

"My child is unique."
I'm up myself and my child has been raised with no boundaries at all.

;)

[Mesi]

Doesn't the axe mortalis only have one special rule?

Also, you still haven't addressed points a and b

Point A is countered by the rules in the book. 'If no additional special rules' Since the weapon has additional special rules. You do not look to see what type of weapon it is. It could be modeled as unicorn or a severed arm. It wouldn't matter.

B. Is also covered by the rules. Since you don't look at the specific weapon the model is using it doesn't matter what the counts as has. So long as he has a melee weapon.

Power weapon is considered a special rule. Otherwise it would simply be 'melee weapon' Add on master crafted and you now have multiple special rules.

The power weapon rule clarifies what a unique weapon is. 'A power weapon with additional special rules' Unique power weapons follow the AP3 profile. If they wanted it to be a power axe, they would have FAQ'd it.

[Mesi]

Hardly "very specifically". The words mean different things. Unique: One of a kind. Special: Slightly out of the ordinary.

And GW has no history of using "unique rules" to mean the same thing as "special rules" anywhere else.

Also to me those two sentences mean entirely different things.
"My child is special."
My child has an intellectual disability

"My child is unique."
I'm up myself and my child has been raised with no boundaries at all.

;)

You're only being argumentative to be argumentative at this point. The context of the rules are cut and dry. And this debate is going in circles because of over specification of word definitions. You need to be aware of how the masses operate. To the masses unique and special mean universally the same thing. Common people using common English interchange words with slightly different meanings to imply the same thing. Is it 100% grammatically correct? nope but it doesn't matter.

And since the rulebook is written in a common even laid back tone, you need to take the same approach to how words are used. If GW has specific meanings they in this rulebook have always pointed it out in some way.

It's only certain people who will argue the fine points of a word in general use as you are doing now to try and create a conflict that really doesn't exist.

[Chris*ta]

The power weapon rule clarifies what a unique weapon is. 'A power weapon with additional special rules' Unique power weapons follow the AP3 profile. If they wanted it to be a power axe, they would have FAQ'd it.

And you were accusing me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context .

Also, we need to keep the difference between a unique weapon and a weapon with unique rules very clear in this argument as people (not you) have previously tried to argue that they are the same thing.

[Chris*ta]

You're only being argumentative to be argumentative at this point. The context of the rules are cut and dry. And this debate is going in circles because of over specification of word definitions. You need to be aware of how the masses operate. To the masses unique and special mean universally the same thing. Common people using common English interchange words with slightly different meanings to imply the same thing. Is it 100% grammatically correct? nope but it doesn't matter.

And since the rulebook is written in a common even laid back tone, you need to take the same approach to how words are used. If GW has specific meanings they in this rulebook have always pointed it out in some way.

It's only certain people who will argue the fine points of a word in general use as you are doing now to try and create a conflict that really doesn't exist.

Really we should be arguing about the meaning of phrases: "special rules" and "unique rules". GW has never used these terms interchangeably before. (Please provide a counterexample if I'm wrong!)

"You're only being argumentative to be argumentative at this point." It's not cool to make accusations like that. Please don't.

[Mesi]

Really we should be arguing about the meaning of phrases: "special rules" and "unique rules". GW has never used these terms interchangeably before. (Please provide a counterexample if I'm wrong!)

"You're only being argumentative to be argumentative at this point." It's not cool to make accusations like that. Please don't.

Take the Glaive for example, it is a two handed master crafted power weapon. It has multiple special rules, which together give it a unique rule.

Since the Glaive is a power weapon with additional special rules. You cannot use the table to determine it's properties in the initial power weapon rule selection. This logically concludes that the combination of special rules makes it unique. And so follows the 'unusual' special weapons rules.

This line of thinking is supported by the Chaos and BA FAQs where they noted exceptions to this logic chain of rules in the Blood Crozius and Gorechild.

[Chris*ta]

I really don't think this is going to come to a conclusion.

I propose the following fix until we get a FAQ that covers it:
1. You can treat the Axe Mortalis as following whatever weapon rules (i.e. axe, sword, maul) that you wish.

2. Just discuss it with your opponent before the game starts.

Any objections?

[EnglishInquisition]

12 pages of whether a model weapon shaped like an axe, that is called an axe in its own description, follows the rules for an axe?
Really?
Really, really, REALLY!?
It's an axe!
Argument over- move on to something else :-D

[Chris*ta]

@ English Inquisition: Don't say that, you'll start it off for another twelve pages! ;)

[EnglishInquisition]

Surely not! With my insightful words of wisdom cutting to the heart of the issue?
Any further arguments would be trivial and puerile in the face of my withering logic!

Is this why we (gamers) get such a bad press?

[Chris*ta]

I always thought it was because we smell and have no social skills?

That and the satanic worship.

[daboarder]

12 pages of whether a model weapon shaped like an axe, that is called an axe in its own description, follows the rules for an axe?
Really?
Really, really, REALLY!?
It's an axe!
Argument over- move on to something else :-D

So despite rules that show that Dante's weapon is an AP3 I6 weapon you claim that somehow you can read the minds of the author and say that this was not what he actually wrote?

RAW

I'm sorry but you people can be ridiculous.

You have RAW stating that if a weapon has additional rules you CANNOT look to see what the weapon is

You have RAW stating that unique weapons have their rules stated in the relevant codex and are AP3

You have the RAW in the codex stating that Dante's Axe by name is a unique weapon.

But you still argue that is must be an axe? Simply because of the use of such poor wording as "unique" last I checked Dante's axe was the only 1-handed, master crafted, power weapon in codex BA.

Really bleh!

[Mesi]

Maybe if we draw a flow chart and pictures people will see how the rules operate since clearly the condition 'no additional special rules' is a hard concept to grasp.

That single rule alone solves all questions for all weapons. The exception being weapons specifically in the faq.

Because of the condition. 'No additional special rules'

Axe Mortalis
Glaive Encarmine
Relic Blades

So on and so forth are ap3 at initiative.

That some of these weapons have additional rules supporting this only compounds the obvious. This debate is pointless and people are getting hung up single words that have no bearing in the rules as written. It's frankly a bit silly.

[Nachodragon]

I am not going to put much more into this as I don't really give a lying F**k but there is a difference between Special Rules and Unique. That is where people are getting hung up. So, everyone calm down and play nice with your local gaming group. When tournaments start deciding things against what makes sense, then people can start getting upset. BUT.. I think there is a reason GW put the 'Look at the model" rule...

[dreadnaughtguy]

can you guys quote the entire parts of the rules you are basing your argument over. I haven't gotten my rule book yet as I have a leg infection and havent been able to walk since the drop of 6th. I ask this so I can understand what the argument is and what I am looking at with my own armies. For example my BT are able to purchase master crafted on quite a few weapons will this change how they work ... for example will a master crafted thunder hammer be double str and only ap3 since it is "unique". cause that would suck bad. this will affect weather I master craft the powe weapons that are axes for my BT's or not.

When I say quite a few I mean 4 per command squad pluss two for each pair of special characters pluss the EC so in a standard army 13.

thanks.

[daboarder]

can you guys quote the entire parts of the rules you are basing your argument over. I haven't gotten my rule book yet as I have a leg infection and havent been able to walk since the drop of 6th. I ask this so I can understand what the argument is and what I am looking at with my own armies. For example my BT are able to purchase master crafted on quite a few weapons will this change how they work ... for example will a master crafted thunder hammer be double str and only ap3 since it is "unique". cause that would suck bad. this will affect weather I master craft the powe weapons that are axes for my BT's or not.

When I say quite a few I mean 4 per command squad pluss two for each pair of special characters pluss the EC so in a standard army 13.

thanks.

Thunder hammers themselves have their rules presented in the BRB, as such the Master crafting does not affect the weapon type (thunder hammer). Our discussion is only concerned with master crafter power weapons.

[EnglishInquisition]

@ Chris*ta- got to be another 5 pages at least in this one! Could break records!

@daboarder :)

[Tynskel]

Nah. It won't beat combat squads.

[daboarder]

Nah. It won't beat combat squads.

If your talking about the reserve thing that was also people not reading the rules correctly and sticking vehemently to their original notions regardless of what was correct.

[Chris*ta]

can you guys quote the entire parts of the rules you are basing your argument over. I haven't gotten my rule book yet as I have a leg infection and havent been able to walk since the drop of 6th. I ask this so I can understand what the argument is and what I am looking at with my own armies. For example my BT are able to purchase master crafted on quite a few weapons will this change how they work ... for example will a master crafted thunder hammer be double str and only ap3 since it is "unique". cause that would suck bad. this will affect weather I master craft the powe weapons that are axes for my BT's or not.

When I say quite a few I mean 4 per command squad pluss two for each pair of special characters pluss the EC so in a standard army 13.

thanks.

Okay, I don't have a copy of the BDAB either, but basically, they're are two paragraphs on p. 61 in the rules for power weapons.

The first says that if a power weapon has SPECIAL RULES then it is AP 3.

The second says that if a power weapon has no UNIQUE RULES then you look at the mini and decide what weapon it is: Sword, axe, maul, and (I think) lance.

Sword S As User I As User AP 3
Axe S User +1 I =1 AP 2
Maul S User +2 I As user AP 4
Lance (don't remember)

I might've made a mistake, they're not sure, please correct me someone who does have the book if wrong.

Basically, they're are two arguments on this.

Some people are saying that because Dante's axe has master crafted, you don't look at the mini and it's AP 3.

Others are saying that master crafted is not a unique rule (it's listed in the weapon USRs in 6th ed) that you should treat it as an axe. Although "unique rules" is not defined, they believe GW meant rules that change S, I and (in new codexes) AP.

I've put forward a compromise: That you can let the axe follow the rules for whatever weapon off the above list that you like, just discuss it with your opponent before the start of the game.

There's a whole lot of arguments on both sides that I can't be bothered summarising.

Hope that brings you up to speed on the battle so far. Please choose a side and start trolling ;)

Regarding the weapons in your Black Templars, the Thunder Hammer is definitely "unique" -- it has rules in the BDAB, which are basically the same as 5th ed, except it has AP 2.

Regarding power weapons, my feeling is that GW intended for you to be able to have master crafted axes, swords, etc. as you wish.

Oh, and chaplains; most Codex FAQs have specified that their crozia count as power mauls.

[EnglishInquisition]

Nah. It won't beat combat squads.

Oh, that was a good one!
Notice how they've come to a ruling on that in the FAQ's- combat squad at the deployment so they count towards total unit count, but can now share the transport with their other half.
Exactly as Marines should be- well done on that one GW!

[Mesi]

Chris you're wrong, sorry. I will quote direct rules here as I have the rule book.

First off master-crafted is in the section of the book specifically labeled Special Rules along with many others. There is no argument, Master Crafted is a special rule.

Now for the first rule.

Power Weapons

A power weapon is sheathed in the lethal haze of a disruptive energy field that eats through armor, flesh and bone with ease.

Types of Power Weapons

Power weapons come in all shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of our game, we have four simple categories of power weapons: power axes, power mauls, power swords, and power lances.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: if it's a sword or dagger, it's a power sword; if it's an axe of halberd, it's a power axe; if it's a blunt weapons like a mace or staff, it's a power maul; if it's a spear or lance, it's a power lance.

(It then goes on to show the table with the specific attributes which in short are)

Sword - AP3 at initiative
Axe - AP2, +1 str, unwieldy (initiative 1)
Maul - AP4 +2 str, concussive
Lance - +1 str/AP3 on charge, and normal str/AP4 otherwise.

However pay attention to the conditional sentence. The first sentence. I'll repeat it just for emphasis.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:

Master Crafted IS a further special rule. This means you do not look at the model the conditional sentence is not met. Which means it counts as a 'standard' power weapon which is simply ap3 at initiative.


Now we'll talk about what has everyone's panties in a twist. The


Unusual Power Weapons

Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.


Note the italicized sections are direct quotations from the book. No where at all does the rules state if it has no "unique" rules do you look at the model. Because if it has no unique rules then you simply follow the rules for power weapons. Which specifically state, if it has additional special rules. You do NOT look at the weapon. It defaults to AP3.

This really doesn't need to be a debate at all. The rules are perfectly clear. Trying to put a tag on rules as special or unique is completely irrelevant because no matter what you choose to classify them as. Special or Unique the rules say the same exact thing. It's an AP3 melee weapon.

People also point out the Codex mentions the Axe specifically to reference a unique weapon. People are arguing pointlessly about rather a unique 'weapon' means it has unique 'rules' and so it doesn't follow the unusual power weapons rule. Which honestly isn't relevant at all because the power weapons rule handles the situation in the first place. It's seriously people getting hung up on words that have no bearing on the rules. It's the same with Glaive Encarmine, Relic blade ect ect. Unless they FAQ the weapon, and it has any other rules other then being 'power weapon' it's AP3. End of story.

Now please, let this stupid pointless subject die. Because it's pretty cut and dry what the rules say.

[Chris*ta]

Not at all cut and dried -- 13 pages shows that!

The 1st section says SPECIAL RULES so Dante's axe shouldn't be covered there

The 2nd section says UNIQUE RULES and master crafted is not unique -- it's a USR, fercrissakes -- so Dante's axe shouldn't be covered there either.

So, it falls between the cracks.

I know, you'll argue that by UNIQUE RULES they meant SPECIAL RULES but that's not what they wrote, and a term that GW has never used to mean the same thing as special rules.

Hence, why I suggested that compromise above. Which, and I'm saying this in all caps not at you, but because people keep wanting to argue about it:
LET"S YOU TREAT DANTE"S AXE AS FOLLOWING THE SAME RULES AS A POWER SWORD IF YOU WANT.

I've already stated 3 possible reasons why the BA FAQ might not have discussed Dante's axe, so not going to discuss that further.

[Chris*ta]

Oh, that was a good one!
Notice how they've come to a ruling on that in the FAQ's- combat squad at the deployment so they count towards total unit count, but can now share the transport with their other half.
Exactly as Marines should be- well done on that one GW!

Unless they're in a drop pod, in which case they combat squad as they disembark from it.

Get it right ;)
Or else we'll have to discuss it for another 13 pages too! :O

[Tynskel]

In 2nd Edition, Dante had a Power Axe.
In 3rd Edition, Dante had a Power Weapon, because GW got rid of all the power weapon specifics.
In 4th Edition, Dante's Power Weapon became 'master crafted'.
In 5th Edition, Dante has the Axe Mortalis.

[Tynskel]

In 2nd Edition, Dante had a Power Axe.
In 3rd Edition, Dante had a Power Weapon, because GW got rid of all the power weapon specifics.
In 4th Edition, Dante's Power Weapon became 'master crafted'.
In 5th Edition, Dante has the Axe Mortalis.

[Tynskel]

"S YOU TREAT DANTE"

I am trying to find this quotation in the Blood Angels Codex.

[Chris*ta]

In 2nd Edition, Dante had a Power Axe.
In 3rd Edition, Dante had a Power Weapon, because GW got rid of all the power weapon specifics.
In 4th Edition, Dante's Power Weapon became 'master crafted'.
In 5th Edition, Dante has the Axe Mortalis.

And in 6th ed, he has a power sword, because, dammit, GW, how could you take away my I6?! Dante was awesome, and now he is TEH SUXXOR! GW I Hate You! I'm selling all my BAs and taking up an army that you haven't COMPLETELY nerfed! Like Tyranids!

They're finished that for ya ;)

[Mesi]

Not at all cut and dried -- 13 pages shows that!

The 1st section says SPECIAL RULES so Dante's axe shouldn't be covered there

The 2nd section says UNIQUE RULES and master crafted is not unique -- it's a USR, fercrissakes -- so Dante's axe shouldn't be covered there either.

So, it falls between the cracks.

I know, you'll argue that by UNIQUE RULES they meant SPECIAL RULES but that's not what they wrote, and a term that GW has never used to mean the same thing as special rules.

Hence, why I suggested that compromise above. Which, and I'm saying this in all caps not at you, but because people keep wanting to argue about it:
LET"S YOU TREAT DANTE"S AXE AS FOLLOWING THE SAME RULES AS A POWER SWORD IF YOU WANT.

I've already stated 3 possible reasons why the BA FAQ might not have discussed Dante's axe, so not going to discuss that further.

It doesn't fall between the cracks at all. It's a power weapon... with further special rules. Why is this so friggin hard to understand.

Master Crafted is a special rule. That isn't debatable at all. Or maybe they put it in the wrong section with all those other rules that are not special rules. Yes I'm sure GW wrote several pages in a chapter listed Special Rules and really meant that none of them were special rules at all.

Power weapon + Master Crafted = power weapon + special rule. It's not rocket science man.


In fact the exact wording from the BA dex. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon"

[Chris*ta]

I am trying to find this quotation in the Blood Angels Codex.

There's your problem -- It's in the FAQ ;)

[Chris*ta]

It doesn't fall between the cracks at all. It's a power weapon... with further special rules. Why is this so friggin hard to understand.

Master Crafted is a special rule. That isn't debatable at all. Or maybe they put it in the wrong section with all those other rules that are not special rules. Yes I'm sure GW wrote several pages in a chapter listed Special Rules and really meant that none of them were special rules at all.

Power weapon + Master Crafted = power weapon + special rule. It's not rocket science man.


In fact the exact wording from the BA dex. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon"

Ehh, already been argued for far too many pages -- both sides evidently have evidence and their adherents.

I've proposed a compromise that let's both sides have what they want, and you're still trying to steal the ice cream (for which, read "power axe") out of the other guy's hands.

The core of it is RAW is vague enough that it's debatable and I'm fairly sure RAI will fall with the argument that an axe is an axe.

Basically, WYSIWIG, that and GW doesn't try to write rules that allow you to easter egg -- i.e. because most master crafted power weapons are specified to belong to one of the types, then because Dante's AXE isn't specified to be an axe, then therefore it doesn't have a type.

[Mesi]

Ehh, already been argued for far too many pages -- both sides evidently have evidence and their adherents.

I've proposed a compromise that let's both sides have what they want, and you're still trying to steal the ice cream (for which, read "power axe") out of the other guy's hands.

The core of it is RAW is vague enough that it's debatable and I'm fairly sure RAI will fall with the argument that an axe is an axe.

Basically, WYSIWIG, that and GW doesn't try to write rules that allow you to easter egg -- i.e. because most master crafted power weapons are specified to belong to one of the types, then because Dante's AXE isn't specified to be an axe, then therefore it doesn't have a type.

No, the other side has no evidence. It's nitpicking over specifics that don't exist. Trying to confuse things because of the words 'special' and 'unique'

It's stated plain as day in the rules. And the FAQs. They took time out FAQ Lemarte's weapon to be a Maul, and Kharn's weapon to be an Axe. If they wanted Dante's weapon to be an axe they would have put it in the FAQ.

If you want to take about RAI. Then yeah I'm sure they fully intended the most experienced, battle hardened Chapter Masters in the entirety of the Space Marines to not be able to use his purposely higher reaction speeds and then any other Marine in existence except Mephiston. And to say that his 2000 years of experience with the weapon means he can't wield it axe or no in such a way that's it's not actually cumbersome to him. Yes, we'll go with that. Makes perfect sense.

Again They FAQ'd Lemartes, they FAQ'd Kharn. If they intended it to be a power axe they would have FAQ'd Dante.

Regardless I am done with this argument. You can do whatever you want at your individual game clubs/groups but it doesn't mean you're not playing wrong. If people want to get caught up terms instead of following what the conditionals in the rules state that's on them. I've enough headache seeing this debate everywhere.

[Chris*ta]

No, the other side has no evidence. It's nitpicking over specifics that don't exist. Trying to confuse things because of the words 'special' and 'unique'

It's stated plain as day in the rules. And the FAQs. They took time out FAQ Lemarte's weapon to be a Maul, and Kharn's weapon to be an Axe. If they wanted Dante's weapon to be an axe they would have put it in the FAQ.

If you want to take about RAI. Then yeah I'm sure they fully intended the most experienced, battle hardened Chapter Masters in the entirety of the Space Marines to not be able to use his purposely higher reaction speeds and then any other Marine in existence except Mephiston. And to say that his 2000 years of experience with the weapon means he can't wield it axe or no in such a way that's it's not actually cumbersome to him. Yes, we'll go with that. Makes perfect sense.

Again They FAQ'd Lemartes, they FAQ'd Kharn. If they intended it to be a power axe they would have FAQ'd Dante.

Regardless I am done with this argument. You can do whatever you want at your individual game clubs/groups but it doesn't mean you're not playing wrong. If people want to get caught up terms instead of following what the conditionals in the rules state that's on them. I've enough headache seeing this debate everywhere.

Just cos you don't like the other side's evidence doesn't mean it stops existing.

To argue from the reverse, if they intended for Dante to be able to use his I6, why didn't they FAQ that?

Surely GW would have foreseen, in their infinite wisdom, that a significant proportion of players would have assumed that a power weapon that looks like an axe, and has axe in its name, should follow the rules for a power axe?

Why didn't they FAQ the crozius-thing in the SW FAQ? Is that a power sword too?

And GW have left far worse (and far bigger) rules problems out of FAQs before, and in FAQs that they (presumably) spent a lot more time producing.

[Chris*ta]

Also, remember my compromise?

That actually let's everyone have what they want?

You still haven't said what's wrong with that?

Other than that you want your toy soldiers to work how you want and everyone else's to work the same way.

[Chris*ta]

< -- SORRY FOR MULTI-POSTING. I KEEP HAVING NEW IDEAS AND CAN"T BE BOTHERED EDITING -- >

Basically, this argument comes down to one's beliefs about the opinion that GW holds of its players.

Do you assume that they think the average player can synthesise the rules in two different books, written in different editions, and the FAQ and come out with the right answer?

Or do you assume that they think their players might see a weapon that has axe in its name, and looks like an axe, and think "I wonder if that's an axe?"

Gee, should I put this to a poll?

[Kevlarshark]

Hold on...
People seem to misreading the rulebook bit on Unique weapons.

The BRB says "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique special rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."

So what about the Axe Mortalis is unique (other than the funky name)?

Not a thing... master crafted is not a unique special rule, merely a special rule. It is included in the special rules bit of the BRB.

But even without that...take the sad tale of Kharn into account.
Before the FAQ Kharn had a valid argument as his Axe has many (unique to Gorechild) special rules and only counted as a powerweapon.
Guess what? FAQ hit and Gorechild = power axe

This argument is silly... There is no way Dante's no unique rules Axe is not an Axe.

[Chris*ta]

Hold on...
People seem to misreading the rulebook bit on Unique weapons.

The BRB says "Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique special rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."

So what about the Axe Mortalis is unique (other than the funky name)?

Not a thing... master crafted is not a unique special rule, merely a special rule. It is included in the special rules bit of the BRB.

But even without that...take the sad tale of Kharn into account.
Before the FAQ Kharn had a valid argument as his Axe has many (unique to Gorechild) special rules and only counted as a powerweapon.
Guess what? FAQ hit and Gorechild = power axe

This argument is silly... There is no way Dante's no unique rules Axe is not an Axe.

But Dante costs a million points and he's super awesome and he flies around on a Land Raider playing super awesome power guitar and how could GW possibly nerf him?! ;)

Yeah, I agree with you, and yeah, I think it's obvious that an axe should follow the rules for an axe, and I even posted a compromise that should make both sides happy because they both get what they want, and no, this won't stop the argument from carrying on.

Sorry, trying to get in before this argument goes up another bunch of pages.

[EnglishInquisition]

Also, remember my compromise?

That actually let's everyone have what they want?

You still haven't said what's wrong with that?

Other than that you want your toy soldiers to work how you want and everyone else's to work the same way.

Compromise? Compromise!?
Did he actually say COMPROMISE!!

This is the internet damnit- there will be no compromise! This is my opinion and I will bloody mindedly stick with it and ignore your logic and reason!.
Pah, I say, PAH!
:)
(that'll get another 5 pages- now I'm going over to the auto hitting flyers thread, that one seems to be dragging its heels a bit)

[Chris*ta]

Compromise? Compromise!?
Did he actually say COMPROMISE!!

This is the internet damnit- there will be no compromise! This is my opinion and I will bloody mindedly stick with it and ignore your logic and reason!.
Pah, I say, PAH!
:)
(that'll get another 5 pages- now I'm going over to the auto hitting flyers thread, that one seems to be dragging its heels a bit)

Do you want to ask if Sanguinor can sword a Blitza Bomma, cos he does have wings?

Damn, can't find on Youtube the bit from Wild Zero where the guy cuts a UFO in two with a sword he keeps in his guitar :(

[dreadnaughtguy]

Chris you're wrong, sorry. I will quote direct rules here as I have the rule book.

First off master-crafted is in the section of the book specifically labeled Special Rules along with many others. There is no argument, Master Crafted is a special rule.

Now for the first rule.

Power Weapons

A power weapon is sheathed in the lethal haze of a disruptive energy field that eats through armor, flesh and bone with ease.

Types of Power Weapons

Power weapons come in all shapes and sizes, but for the purposes of our game, we have four simple categories of power weapons: power axes, power mauls, power swords, and power lances.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has: if it's a sword or dagger, it's a power sword; if it's an axe of halberd, it's a power axe; if it's a blunt weapons like a mace or staff, it's a power maul; if it's a spear or lance, it's a power lance.

(It then goes on to show the table with the specific attributes which in short are)

Sword - AP3 at initiative
Axe - AP2, +1 str, unwieldy (initiative 1)
Maul - AP4 +2 str, concussive
Lance - +1 str/AP3 on charge, and normal str/AP4 otherwise.

However pay attention to the conditional sentence. The first sentence. I'll repeat it just for emphasis.

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:

Master Crafted IS a further special rule. This means you do not look at the model the conditional sentence is not met. Which means it counts as a 'standard' power weapon which is simply ap3 at initiative.


Now we'll talk about what has everyone's panties in a twist. The


Unusual Power Weapons

Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.


Note the italicized sections are direct quotations from the book. No where at all does the rules state if it has no "unique" rules do you look at the model. Because if it has no unique rules then you simply follow the rules for power weapons. Which specifically state, if it has additional special rules. You do NOT look at the weapon. It defaults to AP3.

This really doesn't need to be a debate at all. The rules are perfectly clear. Trying to put a tag on rules as special or unique is completely irrelevant because no matter what you choose to classify them as. Special or Unique the rules say the same exact thing. It's an AP3 melee weapon.

People also point out the Codex mentions the Axe specifically to reference a unique weapon. People are arguing pointlessly about rather a unique 'weapon' means it has unique 'rules' and so it doesn't follow the unusual power weapons rule. Which honestly isn't relevant at all because the power weapons rule handles the situation in the first place. It's seriously people getting hung up on words that have no bearing on the rules. It's the same with Glaive Encarmine, Relic blade ect ect. Unless they FAQ the weapon, and it has any other rules other then being 'power weapon' it's AP3. End of story.

Now please, let this stupid pointless subject die. Because it's pretty cut and dry what the rules say.

Ah I get what you are saying! You are saying GW created three types of power weapons.

basic wysiwyg power _______ .
special power weapons like the axe mortalis.
Unique special power weapons like Dryachnin.

here is the only issue I see with this...

correct me if I am getting any of this wrong since I do not have the rule book.

the section on power weapons makes people wonder if "mr vampire" and his "axe of uber vampireness" is quantified as a UNIQUE POWER WEAPON since it has the specific unique name and a usr.

the section on unique power weapons says it does not count as a unique power weapon because it does not have unique special rules for combat.

So it is eithor meant to be a power axe, which is a nerf to him. Or it is meant to be a unique weapon and they missed it in the recent run of faq's. Or as you contend they actually created three "classes of weapons"

Here is my question if "master crafted" is a usr and I apply a usr to a weapon that is covered in the rule book does that give me the benifit of bypassing the negative parts of the power weapon rule. For example If you say yes, then I can then attach master crafted to a power axe making it "unique" and becoming ap3 and attacking at Inishative instead of a +1s I=1 weapon. this is a huge deal for BT.

Now just incase they decide to nerf BA and rull it the way that those that call it an axe have said to clear this up, that would mean that he falls into the same area as say marnius who has a boosted inishative that is nerfed by his war gear. Ask all the nid players about the nerf faq's, im sure they will feel sorry for your pain at getting a super character nerfed. :)

[Tynskel]

the funny thing is that Dante doesn't have the axe of Uber Vampireness. That's Astorath.

Dante either has a Master Crafted Power Axe: re-roll one miss to hit Str+1 AP2, Unwieldly
Or he has a Master Crafted Power Axe: re-roll one miss to hit Str as User AP3.

Either case, it doesn't really matter. Dante is a Bad MoFo with either weapon.

[dreadnaughtguy]

It was a joke.... about the blood xyz of everything in the codex.

....

and what ever he has determins what the entire command squad in bt is equiped with.

[Chris*ta]

the funny thing is that Dante doesn't have the axe of Uber Vampireness. That's Astorath.

Dante either has a Master Crafted Power Axe: re-roll one miss to hit Str+1 AP2, Unwieldly
Or he has a Master Crafted Power SWORD: re-roll one miss to hit Str as User AP3.

Either case, it doesn't really matter. Dante is a Bad MoFo with either weapon.

Fixed! ;)

[Chris*ta]

That's sad, this thread seems to have gone dead :(

Maybe I should try posting something about how an axe should follow the rules for an axe and see if it starts up again ...

[Chris*ta]

Ah I get what you are saying! You are saying GW created three types of power weapons.

basic wysiwyg power _______ .
special power weapons like the axe mortalis.
Unique special power weapons like Dryachnin.

Four types. you left out special power weapons that are FAQ'd to be a specific power weapon type like Lemartes' crozius. ;)

[Tynskel]

Fixed! ;)

no, because of the special rule, one might interpret the rule as part of the 'no further special rules' segment, of which is would be a Master Crafted Power Axe: str as user, AP3.

[Tynskel]

I called it, didn't I?

It won't reach 200.
Because this is too simple of an argument: arguing about rules on one page of the book.
The ones that reach 200 posts are arguing about rules that are more than one page of the book and involve multiple different types of rules combining together.

[Chris*ta]

Yeah, I thought it might keep going because of the issues about rules from different editions mixing, and also the vehemence that people were fighting for the "It's not an aaaaaaxxxxe!!!!" camp (funnier if you imagine it like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaTO8_KNcuo ).

[daboarder]

Yeah, I thought it might keep going because of the issues about rules from different editions mixing, and also the vehemence that people were fighting for the "It's not an aaaaaaxxxxe!!!!" camp (funnier if you imagine it like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaTO8_KNcuo ).

From GW,

I guess its hardly conclusive not being in an FAQ but its yet another nail in your self righteous coffin.


Good Morning James

Thanks for the email about the New Warhammer 40'000 rules. We would be happy to answer your questions about the new Warhammer 40'000 rules, Are you running a Blood Angel army at the moment and what are you running in your list?

1) There has been some debate over what qualifies as a unusual power weapon (or Force weapon). Here are a few examples and I am wondering if they qualify. All have special rules, which by page 61 says they do not go look at the weapon to determine type.

Dante's Axe Mortalis
Glaive Encarmines
Astorath's Executioner's Axe
Relic Blades
Demon Weapons
Ahriman's Black Staff.

All of these weapons do count as Unusual power weapons and are AP3 in close combat, as they all have other rule other than being a power weapon.

2) Does Captain Tycho have an AP Value? Or does he just ignore all armor saves?

Brother Captain Tyco just Ignores all armour saves with the Dead Mans Hand, and rolls a extra D6 for armour penatration. How cool is that?

3) If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged.

4) Can Artillery fire overwatch (assuming the artillery is not blast such as Ork Artillery)

Yes as long as the weapon is not a blast weapon.

Hope that this helps and if you have any other questions please contact us again.

[Tynskel]

aw shucks. I wanted to make Spears for my Sanguinary Guard.

[bfmusashi]

So that hyphen means artillery can't fire Snap Shots IF it moved in the movement phase? That changes a lot, including the whole shooting at zooming fliers with artillery.

[DarkLink]

aw shucks. I wanted to make Spears for my Sanguinary Guard.

Well, you still could, they'd just still be glaives in the rules.

[SeattleDV8]

So that hyphen means artillery can't fire Snap Shots IF it moved in the movement phase? That changes a lot, including the whole shooting at zooming fliers with artillery.

BRB pg. 46
...cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's movement phase-they cannot make Snap Shots.

[Tynskel]

Well, you still could, they'd just still be glaives in the rules.

Yeah, I might still make a bunch of spears.
I might give Vanguard Vets, or Honor Guard Spears n' Shields, instead. I like the idea of str 6 power weapons.


Can someone explain to me why vanguard vet sgts can get glaive Encarmines, but my Captain cannot?

[Chris*ta]

From GW,

I guess its hardly conclusive not being in an FAQ but its yet another nail in your self righteous coffin.

The bit I find most interesting in that email is this:
"3) If I use a signum to make a shooter BS5, does that override the snapfire restriction for firing a moving heavy weapon or shooting a flyer?

Yes but it can only be used in the Shooting phase, not when being charged."

Does this mean that devastator's might actually be worth taking?

[Chris*ta]

From GW,

I guess its hardly conclusive not being in an FAQ but its yet another nail in your self righteous coffin.

"1) There has been some debate over what qualifies as a unusual power weapon (or Force weapon). Here are a few examples and I am wondering if they qualify. All have special rules, which by page 61 says they do not go look at the weapon to determine type.

Dante's Axe Mortalis
Glaive Encarmines
Astorath's Executioner's Axe
Relic Blades
Demon Weapons
Ahriman's Black Staff.

All of these weapons do count as Unusual power weapons and are AP3 in close combat, as they all have other rule other than being a power weapon."

Now someone needs to try asking the question as:
"Is Dante's Axe Mortalis an axe? (i.e. Is it S +1 I =1 AP 2)"

And seeing if we get a different answer ;)

Alternatively, add Lemartes' master crafted crozius to the list, and seeing if we get the same answer.

[bfmusashi]

@ Seattle: I am well aware of how the sentence is written, but letting artillery fire overwatch (which are Snap Shots) pulls the sentence into doubt. A dash is between a comma and a colon in terms of separation and was a fairly poor choice for a rulebook. I mean look at how this bad boy can be divvied up:
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase - they cannot make Snap Shots.
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that tun's Movement phase, they cannot make Snap Shots.
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase: they cannot make Snap Shots.
Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turn's Movement phase and they cannot make Snap Shots.
As a Gun model cannot, typically, move in your opponent's Movement phase it seems odd that the Snap Shots bit would be in there unless it meant all the time, but the rulebook also has the puppetmaster power in it. This could not be a total ban on AA fire but intended to keep mind controlled artillery from coming to their senses to shoot at assaulting units. I'm going to trim this down and put it in the right forum, just thought I'd answer that quote.

[Gloomfang]

My opponets have taken to replacing the ax with a sword on the model. It makes it so much easier to deal with. That way it is either WYSIWYG becasue is is not an UPW or it is and it has the stats of a power sword anyway. And for all the people who say it has Axe in its name, names are not rules. If I have a Twilight themed BA army and have Edward the Sparkly with a rusty knife called "The Tears of Bella" it is still Dante if thats who's rules and points I am using him for.

[da_WaaaghMaster]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I just wanted to say either ruling works for me as I modeled Dante with a power sword when 3rd edition made all power weapons generic.

Also for the WYSIWYG crowd who are determined to ignore logic: I was thinking of buying multiple Dante's and modeling each one with a different weapon so I can optimize his effectiveness against the opponent I'm squaring off against. The Axe Mortalis is actually a power lance! Wat?!

Once again I apologize for the borderline threadomancy, but this topic interested me. I just joined BoLS and didn't have a chance to engage in the on-going conversation.

[Tynskel]

wow. Unproductive.

[da_WaaaghMaster]

wow. Unproductive.

wow. A nuanced and eloquent rebuttal.

On the contrary it's quite productive. In games with my group, Dante will have an ap3 CCW, since we all agree that is RAW. If I have any games involving folks from the other side of this argument at my FLGS; Dante will have whatever I model him with (also legal as far as RAW are concerned if you proscribe to this line of thinking). Everyone's opinion is satisfied. Problem solved until we get a new FAQ.

I'll give you the last word on this. I'm already re-opening old wounds, and didn't intend to give this thread new steam, just wanted to post my $0.02. Sorry, I'm new here and still learning where to post and where not to. :o

[Wolfshade]

wow. A nuanced and eloquent rebuttal.

On the contrary it's quite productive. In games with my group, Dante will have an ap3 CCW, since we all agree that is RAW. If I have any games involving folks from the other side of this argument at my FLGS; Dante will have whatever I model him with (also legal as far as RAW are concerned if you proscribe to this line of thinking). Everyone's opinion is satisfied. Problem solved until we get a new FAQ.

I'll give you the last word on this. I'm already re-opening old wounds, and didn't intend to give this thread new steam, just wanted to post my $0.02. Sorry, I'm new here and still learning where to post and where not to. :o

The trouble is that you have him modelled with a weapon he doesn't have access to.
The latest codex says that his wargear is the "Axe Mortalis", which is quite clearly an axe, regardless of how it is modelled it must always be an axe...

I know that is quite an abstraction but if modelled his pistol as a multimelta he wouldn't have a multimelta, it would still be an inferno pistol because that is what his wargear "options" state that he is equipped with and so cannot have any other weapons

[Learn2Eel]

To answer the question, it would be like modelling Lychguard with power axes even though they have Hypherphase Swords. Dante's weapon is intended to be an axe, and I think regardless of how you model it, you should treat it that way. Hyperphase Swords are quite clearly power swords so someone modelling them as axes would be doing so for display purposes, not game purposes.

[Chris*ta]

Dante's rules never say he has an axe. The weapon is named "Axe Mortalis" but never actually specifies what it is.

My theory is that this is so, if you're using Dante as a counts-as Chapter master/Commander of your own BA successor, you can arm him with whatever weapon you like. Just a theory though.

[dannyat2460]

yes if you use the dante model as a comander or special sgt unless you change the model he will be a <insert model name(sgt/comander)> armed with a power axe an infernus pistol and a jump pack, so if i converted him to have a plasma pistol he would be a <insert model name(sgt/comander)> armed with a power axe a plasma pistol and a jump pack. however that model can never be used as a WYSIWYG dante as he hasnt got a infernus pistol anymore which dantes wargear that can not be changed as he dosnt have options to do it.

Yes GW support conversions they even promote it but for characters when you buy the model that is unique and has no options for changing weapos that is what it is suposed to be armed with. id love my mephiston to be armed with a power axe every now and again but he has a sword.

end of the converting unique models debate thankyou can we please close this thread

[Chris*ta]

yes if you use the dante model as a comander or special sgt unless you change the model he will be a <insert model name(sgt/comander)> armed with a power axe an infernus pistol and a jump pack, so if i converted him to have a plasma pistol he would be a <insert model name(sgt/comander)> armed with a power axe a plasma pistol and a jump pack. however that model can never be used as a WYSIWYG dante as he hasnt got a infernus pistol anymore which dantes wargear that can not be changed as he dosnt have options to do it.

Yes GW support conversions they even promote it but for characters when you buy the model that is unique and has no options for changing weapos that is what it is suposed to be armed with. id love my mephiston to be armed with a power axe every now and again but he has a sword.

end of the converting unique models debate thankyou can we please close this thread

Except Dante's rules never say his weapon is an axe -- the name is Axe Mortalis, but the type isn't specified -- read my previous comment for my theory on why.

[Kyban]

Doesn't the Axe Mortalis have special rules and would therefore be an unusual power weapon? Then it wouldn't matter how it was modeled.

[Chris*ta]

Doesn't the Axe Mortalis have special rules and would therefore be an unusual power weapon? Then it wouldn't matter how it was modeled.

No ... please don't let this get started again ... it's already gone 18 pages.

The TL;DR version of this thread is that the page in the BDAB says "special rules" in the first paragraph and "unique rules" in the second, and whether Mastercrafted is a Unique Rule, and whether being Unique is relevant.

Basically, the Axe Mortalis doesn't really fit in either paragraph. Then there's about a dozen pages of arguing ... I suggested as a compromise you can play the Axe Mortalis following the rules of whichever type of power weapon you like, just discuss it with your opponent first ... people argue that there is to be no compromise, it DOES HAVE unique rules and you are NOT ALLOWED to play it any other way ... someone emails the mail order trolls, who say it does follow the rules for weapons with unique rules ... no one points out that the mail order trolls are exactly as qualified to make rules decisions as, I dunno, anyone on this (or any other) forum ... some more arguing ... a couple of unrelated rules questions ... then a few people post occasionally on this thread to ask if there's a decision ... people are rude about them committing threadomancy for some unknown reason ... and now where here.

But, please ... don't poke this thread too much or it will explode out another ten pages :(

[Bean]

No ... please don't let this get started again ... it's already gone 18 pages.

The TL;DR version of this thread is that the page in the BDAB says "special rules" in the first paragraph and "unique rules" in the second, and whether Mastercrafted is a Unique Rule, and whether being Unique is relevant.

Basically, the Axe Mortalis doesn't really fit in either paragraph. Then there's about a dozen pages of arguing ... I suggested as a compromise you can play the Axe Mortalis following the rules of whichever type of power weapon you like, just discuss it with your opponent first ... people argue that there is to be no compromise, it DOES HAVE unique rules and you are NOT ALLOWED to play it any other way ... someone emails the mail order trolls, who say it does follow the rules for weapons with unique rules ... no one points out that the mail order trolls are exactly as qualified to make rules decisions as, I dunno, anyone on this (or any other) forum ... some more arguing ... a couple of unrelated rules questions ... then a few people post occasionally on this thread to ask if there's a decision ... people are rude about them committing threadomancy for some unknown reason ... and now where here.

But, please ... don't poke this thread too much or it will explode out another ten pages :(

This, pretty much in its entirety. In fact, I think I posted this very near the beginning, and then kinda forgot about this thread. I certainly didn't notice it had kept going like this...

[Chris*ta]

This, pretty much in its entirety. In fact, I think I posted this very near the beginning, and then kinda forgot about this thread. I certainly didn't notice it had kept going like this...

Oh, so you missed the bit where I suggested a compromise that allowed both sides of the argument to play how they wanted, so long as they discussed it with their opponents before the game ... and the response was basically: NO, YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!!! And then 3 or 4 more pages of "discussion".

[Bean]

Oh, so you missed the bit where I suggested a compromise that allowed both sides of the argument to play how they wanted, so long as they discussed it with their opponents before the game ... and the response was basically: NO, YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!!! And then 3 or 4 more pages of "discussion".

Yup.

I'm with you, though--the rules just fail to answer this question. No matter what you do, it's a house-rule, so why bother arguing?

[Chris*ta]

Yup.

I'm with you, though--the rules just fail to answer this question. No matter what you do, it's a house-rule, so why bother arguing?


NO, YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!!!

Followed by "It doesn't need a houserule! It's totally obvious what the rules are! Your just arguing for the sake of arguing now!" Exact quote*.

* Not actually an exact quote.

[Tynskel]

actually, no. The Axe Mortalis has special rules. That makes the Axe Mortalis a 'unique' weapon.

Otherwise,
Blade Encarmines are not 'unique' weapons.

[bfmusashi]

The Axe Mortalis is clearly a guitar, blessed and sanctified to perform the Emperor's Holy Rock. It is only a mundane axe to the boring and uninitiated.

[da_WaaaghMaster]

The Axe Mortalis is clearly a guitar, blessed and sanctified to perform the Emperor's Holy Rock. It is only a mundane axe to the boring and uninitiated.
Edit: ^ This is going to be my sig.

^ LOL! This wins (I was actually thinking the same thing). Blowing the ears off the heathen foes of the Emperor with a ferocious set of power chords!

Plus there's proof!
(this is obviously concept art)
2380
(here's a pre-production mock-up taken from a super secret GW facility, totally legit I swear)
2381

I know I said I wasn't going to post here again but bfmusashi's post was too awesome to ignore, and exactly what this thread needed :D
Damn, now I need to get a guitar and name it Mortalis.

[Tynskel]

wow.

I totally had it wrong.

[Irdion]

IMO, the Axe Mortalis is simply a Master-Crafted Power Axe. I feel that this entire debate has been ignoring the fact that 'master-crafted' is not a unique special rule, but rather an upgrade to weaponry (as evidenced in other portions of the codex). That, and going by the clarification in the BRB to look to the model for clarification as to whether it's a Sword/Axe/etc. seems that the debate would be easily resolved. Dante carries a big-ol' power axe with a unique name, which has the master-crafted upgrade.

[daboarder]

IMO, the Axe Mortalis is simply a Master-Crafted Power Axe. I feel that this entire debate has been ignoring the fact that 'master-crafted' is not a unique special rule, but rather an upgrade to weaponry (as evidenced in other portions of the codex). That, and going by the clarification in the BRB to look to the model for clarification as to whether it's a Sword/Axe/etc. seems that the debate would be easily resolved. Dante carries a big-ol' power axe with a unique name, which has the master-crafted upgrade.

OH MY GOD!!!

ARE YOU STILL DEBATING THIS?


FOR F*CK SAKE

1 It has "SPECIAL RULES"

therefore CANNOT Look to see what it has

2 the codex (which trumps rulebook) refers to the axe mortalis BY NAME! as unique.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

My count:

1) Master Crafted isn't an upgrade any more, it's listed in Universal Special Rules.
2) Axes, Mauls and Lances should have been handled as their own SR.

Listing the weapon type as a special rule would make it much more easily handled by having the weapon look like

Axe Mortalis: Master Crafted, Power Axe

or Axe Mortalis: Master Crafted, Power Weapon

[Irdion]

OH MY GOD!!!

ARE YOU...

It does not have UNIQUE Special Rules.

And cool it with the massive text. It doesn't do anything for the argument.

[Chris*ta]

OH MY GOD!!!

ARE YOU STILL DEBATING THIS?


FOR F*CK SAKE

1 It has "SPECIAL RULES"

therefore CANNOT Look to see what it has

2 the codex (which trumps rulebook) refers to the axe mortalis BY NAME! as unique.

Read the BDAB.


No ... please don't let this get started again ... it's already gone 18 pages.

The TL;DR version of this thread is that the page in the BDAB says "special rules" in the first paragraph and "unique rules" in the second, and whether Mastercrafted is a Unique Rule, and whether being Unique is relevant.

Basically, the Axe Mortalis doesn't really fit in either paragraph. Then there's about a dozen pages of arguing ... I suggested as a compromise you can play the Axe Mortalis following the rules of whichever type of power weapon you like, just discuss it with your opponent first ... people argue that there is to be no compromise, it DOES HAVE unique rules and you are NOT ALLOWED to play it any other way ... someone emails the mail order trolls, who say it does follow the rules for weapons with unique rules ... no one points out that the mail order trolls are exactly as qualified to make rules decisions as, I dunno, anyone on this (or any other) forum ... some more arguing ... a couple of unrelated rules questions ... then a few people post occasionally on this thread to ask if there's a decision ... people are rude about them committing threadomancy for some unknown reason ... and now where here.

But, please ... don't poke this thread too much or it will explode out another ten pages :(

[bfmusashi]

Dante walks into a seedy Mexican bar. Cheech (he's our bartender) and the patrons eye him and his guitar case with suspicion.
Cheech: What do you want?
Dante: Something to drink?
Cheech: What's in the guitar case?
Dante: A guitar?
They open the case and lo, there is a guitar and it is good. Everyone starts to relax, but then the guitar starts lifting up to reveal the AXE MORTALIS!
Cheech: Alright everyone, get your attacks in, he's initiative 1.
Dante: Wait, what? No way, it's totally unique! I named it and everything! I go at initiative!
Cheech: Not according to my rulebook.
And so, everything is brought to a halt. We never get to see the lovely Selma Hayek, Quentin Tarantino survives the movie, and Danny Trejo doesn't get to kill a bunch of dudes in a bullet proof car with only his throwing knives.
Alternative explanations:
Dante is very old and likely not wholly right in his head. Anything Dante grabs with his right hand is called the Axe Mortalis. Newspapers, cups, kittens, etc. all the Axe Mortalis.

[Chris*ta]

Dante walks into a seedy Mexican bar. Cheech (he's our bartender) and the patrons eye him and his guitar case with suspicion.
Cheech: What do you want?
Dante: Something to drink?
Cheech: What's in the guitar case?
Dante: A guitar?
They open the case and lo, there is a guitar and it is good. Everyone starts to relax, but then the guitar starts lifting up to reveal the AXE MORTALIS!
Cheech: Alright everyone, get your attacks in, he's initiative 1.
Dante: Wait, what? No way, it's totally unique! I named it and everything! I go at initiative!
Cheech: Not according to my rulebook.
And so, everything is brought to a halt. We never get to see the lovely Selma Hayek, Quentin Tarantino survives the movie, and Danny Trejo doesn't get to kill a bunch of dudes in a bullet proof car with only his throwing knives.
Alternative explanations:
Dante is very old and likely not wholly right in his head. Anything Dante grabs with his right hand is called the Axe Mortalis. Newspapers, cups, kittens, etc. all the Axe Mortalis.

bfmusashi, You're my guitar hero!

Oh yeah, I'm referencing The Clash, cos that's how I roll ;)

[Irdion]

I am now in the process of greenstuffing a kitten for use as the Axe Mortalis. It is hilarious as a concept, and makes me weep with sick joy.

[Chris*ta]

I am now in the process of greenstuffing a kitten for use as the Axe Mortalis. It is hilarious as a concept, and makes me weep with sick joy.

Pics or it didn't happen!

[da_WaaaghMaster]

@ bfmusashi: Thx for getting this thread back on track!


Dante walks into a seedy Mexican bar. Cheech (he's our bartender) and the patrons eye him and his guitar case with suspicion.
Cheech: What do you want?
Dante: Something to drink?
Cheech: What's in the guitar case?
Dante: A guitar?
They open the case and lo, there is a guitar and it is good. Everyone starts to relax, but then the guitar starts lifting up to reveal the AXE MORTALIS!
Cheech: Alright everyone, get your attacks in, he's initiative 1.
Dante: Wait, what? No way, it's totally unique! I named it and everything! I go at initiative!
Cheech: Not according to my rulebook.
And so, everything is brought to a halt. We never get to see the lovely Selma Hayek, Quentin Tarantino survives the movie, and Danny Trejo doesn't get to kill a bunch of dudes in a bullet proof car with only his throwing knives.

^ :D This was great, I honestly laughed. Superb my friend, superb.



Alternative explanations:
Dante is very old and likely not wholly right in his head. Anything Dante grabs with his right hand is called the Axe Mortalis. Newspapers, cups, kittens, etc. all the Axe Mortalis.

^Seems legit.

[ElectricPaladin]

This may have been mentioned before, but if it bothers you, you can always convert your Dante so he's holding a sword. A sword called the "Axe Mortalis?" Well... technically power weapons are WYSIWYG. If the model's got a sword, his weapon is a sword. Furthermore, power swords and power axes are roughly balanced (at least, no one's asking you to pay more or less for one or the other).

Beardy? I dunno. If I were playing you, I'd let you get away with it.

[matrent89]

Page 23 under Equipment of the Blood Angels Codex clearly says what is to be considered Unique, it specifically names Dante's Power Weapon.

[Tynskel]

I am still waiting for someone to say it be so as a power axe. Because then, I'll have Power Spears on my Sanguinary Guard.

[Anggul]

I am still waiting for someone to say it be so as a power axe. Because then, I'll have Power Spears on my Sanguinary Guard.

You could make Hoplite Sanguinary Guard, and they would look amazah.

[Wolfshade]

Alternative explanations:
Dante is very old and likely not wholly right in his head. Anything Dante grabs with his right hand is called the Axe Mortalis. Newspapers, cups, kittens, etc. all the Axe Mortalis.
:D

[Chris*ta]

Page 53 – Commander Dante, The Axe Mortalis. Replace the entry with the “The Axe Mortalis is a power axe with the Master-crafted special rule.”

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

I love the smell of FAQs in the morning, it smells like VINDICATION! :D

[Kevlarshark]

I love it...I really cannot come up with a comment sarcastic enough to express how rediculous I thought the "not an axe" argument was.

It looks like an axe in the art work, is described as an axe, and is on the model as an axe.
The Axe mortalis counts as an... ....AXE!

I am only angry this needed an FAQ at all...hang your heads in shame!

[Chris*ta]

See, I'm annoyed that this thread went, like, 6 or 7 pages after I suggested that we should compromise, and play it however you like, just discuss it with your opponent.

Or about 17 pages after someone quoted the rules for unusual power weapons, and pointed out that the rules weren't clear :mad:

[Chris*ta]

It looks like an axe in the art work, is described as an axe, and is on the model as an axe. The Axe mortalis counts as an... ....AXE!

You left out, has the word axe in its goshdarn name :D

Oh yeah, swearing like a BOSS!

[Kevlarshark]

Its situations like this that swearing was invented for :D

[da_WaaaghMaster]

Yay! Finally an official ruling! I Also noticed Astorath's weapon is pretty much an axe now too.

Edit: Since this debate has been put to rest, I guess I'm going to need a new sig :p

[Tynskel]

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