CSM Daemon Prince w/ wings is a flying monstrous creature?

[Phragonist]

Is a Daemon Prince with wings from the Chaos Space Marine codex a flying monstrous creature? In the white dwarf battle report, they used a daemon prince from the csm codex as a flying monstrous creature, but over at dakkadakka they are trying to tell me that a daemonprince is only a flying monstrous creature if it came from the chaos daemons codex, and if it came from CSM codex it's a lowly jump monstrous creature. Here are the pics from white dwarf
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q532/mv8830/IMG_6891.jpg
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q532/mv8830/IMG_2903.jpg

can anyone clarify this for me? I had to get a 2nd opinion, because I can't accept that a daemon prince with wings is NOT a flying monstrous creature. Thanks

[DrLove42]

According to the Deamon FAQ a Prince with Demonic Flight counts as a flying monstrous creature,

According the to CSM FAQ wings only make you "jump"? Not flying.

So yes, WD got it HORRIFICALLY wrong. As the demon prince is taken from the CSM, not the deamon allies and therefore is not a flying MC

Neither is a bloodthirster.....thank god

[Johnzo]

Bloodthirsters have Daemonic Flight. They're flyers.

[NockerGeek]

Yeah, it's a bit of sloppy FAQing on GW's part. I imagine that v1.1 of the FAQs will be coming before too horribly long and will correct some of those issues - like whether or not Black Templar Typhoons work like regular Typhoons (FAQ fixing them was removed, and because they're functionally different, they may not fall under the "Use the Appendix" addendum at the beginning of each document).

[Archon]

In the german FAQ the CSM DP is a flying mk:) So what is the basic language of wh 40K? I´ve bougth a english copy of the rulebook:eek:

Me thinks: Here GW has simply forgotten a little sentence. Doubt that the german translation-team put something in the FAQ that only counts for german players:rolleyes:

[NockerGeek]

In the german FAQ the CSM DP is a flying mk:) So what is the basic language of wh 40K? I´ve bougth a english copy of the rulebook:eek:

Me thinks: Here GW has simply forgotten a little sentence. Doubt that the german translation-team put something in the FAQ that only counts for german players:rolleyes:

Most likely the case. For example, on the BT FAQ, the German and French versions keep the Typhoon update, but the English and Spanish versions do not.

[kjolnir]

I don't believe a CSM Demon Prince with wings is a flying MC. The CSM 6th Ed. FAQ says Wings add Jump to the unit type, not Flying. So a Demon Prince with Wings is only a Jump MC, not a Flying MC.

In contrast, the Tyranid FAQ specifically says both Harpies and Hive Tyrants that take the Wings biomorph become Flying MCs.

[NockerGeek]

I don't believe a CSM Demon Prince with wings is a flying MC. The CSM 6th Ed. FAQ says Wings add Jump to the unit type, not Flying. So a Demon Prince with Wings is only a Jump MC, not a Flying MC.

In contrast, the Tyranid FAQ specifically says both Harpies and Hive Tyrants that take the Wings biomorph become Flying MCs.

The problem is that in the latest White Dwarf, the one showing off all the new 6th Edition features, they make a big point that a CSM Daemon Prince with wings can Vector Strike. To Vector Strike, it has to be a Flying MC.

So, either the White Dwarf is wrong, or something was omitted from the FAQs. The German, French, and Spanish FAQs all say that an MC with wings becomes a Flying MC, so apparently those lines were left out of the English version.

[kjolnir]

The problem is that in the latest White Dwarf, the one showing off all the new 6th Edition features, they make a big point that a CSM Daemon Prince with wings can Vector Strike. To Vector Strike, it has to be a Flying MC.

True, though the White Dwarf also gets the rules for Vector Strike wrong - D3 + 2 attacks instead of D3 + 1.

[SacredChao]

From the English FAQ, CSM Daemon Princes cannot currently be Flying Monstrous Creatures. However the Rule for wings was most likely put there to cover all the bases for wings, since both Chaos Lords and Sorcerers can take them as well. Since they don't specify whether it does or doesn't give the Daemon Prince Flying, it currently does not, and we can assume either 1 of 2 things:

1. Daemon Princes in our codex cannot Fly.
2. They !@#$ed up.

While the WD battle report does have him fly, WD Battle Reports have a long history of gameplay errors, so I wouldn't count on it. More interesting is if the German FAQ actually does allow him to fly, but since I can't read german, I can only look at it and see that it does look to reference the Monstrous Creatures, although the English one does not.

I'd lend more credibility to the option 2, unless of course it actually stating that it is NOT one, hopefully someone who can read german can let us know!

[kjolnir]

From the English FAQ, CSM Daemon Princes cannot currently be Flying Monstrous Creatures. However the Rule for wings was most likely put there to cover all the bases for wings, since both Chaos Lords and Sorcerers can take them as well. Since they don't specify whether it does or doesn't give the Daemon Prince Flying, it currently does not, and we can assume either 1 of 2 things:

1. Daemon Princes in our codex cannot Fly.
2. They !@#$ed up.

While the WD battle report does have him fly, WD Battle Reports have a long history of gameplay errors, so I wouldn't count on it. More interesting is if the German FAQ actually does allow him to fly, but since I can't read german, I can only look at it and see that it does look to reference the Monstrous Creatures, although the English one does not.

I'd lend more credibility to the option 2, unless of course it actually stating that it is NOT one, hopefully someone who can read german can let us know!

If someone tried to use a German codex with me and we weren't in Germany, I'd flip the table. Just sayin' ;-)

[Nightpaw]

Hello everybody,

is this issue already clear? In the German forums, they are still debating, because the German FAQ (and apparently every other safe the English one) states the opposite of the English FAQ.

Original German FAQ 1.0:
Seite 85 — Spezialausrüstung Flügel
Ersetze den Eintrag durch folgenden Text:
"Infanteriemodelle mit Flügeln ändern ihren Einheitentyp zu Infanterie mit Sprungmodul, Monströse Kreaturen mit Flügeln ändern ihren Einheitentyp zu Fliegende monstörse Kreatur."

My translation from the German FAQ back to English:
Page 85 — Special Equipment Wings
Replace this entry with the following text:
"Infantry models with wings change their unit type to jump infantry, monstrous creatures with wings change their unit type to flying monstrous creature."

Original English FAQ 1.0:
Page 85 — Special Equipment Wings
Replace this entry with: "Models equipped with wings add "jump" to their unit type."

Strange discrepancy, isn't it? To much different stuff in the German Version (which reads, as I was told, exactly the same as the spanish and french version) for a mere tranlation error. Either the English FAQ was changed after the translation or ... ?

Kind regards
Nightpaw

[CridiDeal]

Nice translation.

At my local tournaments the english FAQ is always right...

We'll have to see what GW is going to change with the new codex.

[Tynskel]

can someone tell me the difference between jump monsterous creature and a flying monsterous creature. If they have the same basic rules, I do not see why they are not both Flying Monsterous Creatures.

If the are different, please provide a specific example that one is 100% confirmed as not a flying monsterous creature.
Otherwise, I think they are the same thing.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

can someone tell me the difference between jump monsterous creature and a flying monsterous creature. If they have the same basic rules, I do not see why they are not both Flying Monsterous Creatures.

If the are different, please provide a specific example that one is 100% confirmed as not a flying monsterous creature.
Otherwise, I think they are the same thing."Jump" is now just a modifier to other unit types. "Jump Infantry" isn't exactly its own thing, but rather "Infantry" that have the "Jump" modifier, and "Jump Monstrous Creatures" are "Monstrous Creatures" with the "Jump" modifier, and they receive all of the "Jump" rules. You could even have things like "Jump Cavalry" in 6ed, although that wouldn't be that useful.

However, "Flying Monstrous Creatures" are their own separate unit type (like the difference between Infantry and Jump Infantry in 5ed.) and have their own separate rules which build on top of those normally had by a Jump Monstrous Creature, like Vector Strike.

Edit: The Dreadknight is a JMC but not a Flying MC, for instance.

...weren't you bandying about a link telling people to carefully read the BRB before asking rules questions? :P

[Nachodragon]

can someone tell me the difference between jump monsterous creature and a flying monsterous creature. If they have the same basic rules, I do not see why they are not both Flying Monsterous Creatures.

If the are different, please provide a specific example that one is 100% confirmed as not a flying monsterous creature.
Otherwise, I think they are the same thing.

Jump means they can move 12 in movement phase or 6 in movement phase and re-roll charge distance. Monstrous creatures already have Hammer of wrath, so, potentially you could move 12 in movement and still get Hammer of Wrath in assault.

Flying MCs are way different. They have an extra movement type, Swooping, that makes them Hard to Hit. They are also not able to be assaulted while swooping.

Flying MCs have everything a Jump MC has, but a Jump MC does not have everything a Flying MC has.

[KillYourSelf]

If someone tried to use a German codex with me and we weren't in Germany, I'd flip the table. Just sayin' ;-)

Then you're a ****. Just saying.

If you look closely enough, the German FAQ was updated much more recently than the English FAQ. Also, the French and Spanish FAQ also advise that a Daemon Prince with wings is considered a flying monstrous creature.
This is a global game, there is not a different rule book published for each country.

Would it not seem much more likely that this sentence was mistakenly left out of the English FAQ, rather than mistakenly added into 3 others?

The Daemon Prince with wings is therefore a flying monstrous creature.

And to reiterate, you are a ****. Just saying.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Rules breach detected.
Initiate, you are abusing a fellow user, I am warning you with an infraction for poor use of language.

[Saint_Anger]

Then you're a ****. Just saying.

If you look closely enough, the German FAQ was updated much more recently than the English FAQ. Also, the French and Spanish FAQ also advise that a Daemon Prince with wings is considered a flying monstrous creature.
This is a global game, there is not a different rule book published for each country.

Would it not seem much more likely that this sentence was mistakenly left out of the English FAQ, rather than mistakenly added into 3 others?

The Daemon Prince with wings is therefore a flying monstrous creature.

And to reiterate, you are a ****. Just saying.

According to the English FAQ, however, Daemon Prince with wings is still jump monstrous creature unless there is another updated English FAQ. Imagine if you play CSM using English Codex & FAQ and I play CSM using German Codex & FAQ, that will not be fair at all. If I were kjolnir, I will flip the table too.

[DarkLink]

Personally, I always assume that **** is short for "a really great guy". I mean, what else it be referring to?



This is a global game, there is not a different rule book published for each country.

I wasn't aware that my rulebook was printed in German. I guess I learned a lot more in high school than I thought, if I can read German so well it looks like English. How convenient of GW to pick the one single language apparently everyone in the world can read so they only need to print one version of their rulebook. That's very considerate of them.

Of course, I can't read the German FAQ, so I don't know what the heck it says, so I just have to stick with the English one so I don't know my opponent is lying to me about the rules.

[Kevlarshark]

There is a bit of a points discrepancy between the Codex Chaos Wings (20 points) and the Codex Daemons Daemonic Flight (60 points). So it makes me wonder if the English FAQ is correct and the translators took a bit of an artistic licence (thinking they were correcting an oversight).

I seriously doubt this one will get re-FAQed... Codex Chaos is due so we only have to wait an month...Daemon Princes might not even be in it.

[KillYourSelf]

No.

[Tynskel]

...weren't you bandying about a link telling people to carefully read the BRB before asking rules questions? :P

yes. However, this isn't clear to me. There is no definition of 'jump monsterous creature' in the rulebook.

[Kevlarshark]

If you read the Jump rules (p47) there is a bit saying that they can be applied to monstrous creatures.

I am not sure they can individually describe every single possible unit type especially when they are so rare...the tile "jump monstrous creature currently only applies to Codex Chaos Daemon Princes and Nemesis Dread Knights with personal teleporters. It would start to get silly and you would end up with special section for things like fleet monstrous creatures too