Did the Nemesis Dreadknight get better? [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Bean

07-02-2012, 10:58 PM

TBH: The best layout for NDK is

-Personal Teleporter
- Nemesis Greatsword
- Heavy psycannon
- Heavy incinerator

Its pricey, but it will get things done. And better yet, run them as pair and you got solution to every problem :)

For nearly 300 points? Not worth it. Definitely not worth bringing two. They're not terrible, but, come on...the GK codex has tons of good stuff it could be bringing for those points. This is just...bad advice.

Fists are now far and away the right call for melee weapons. Used to be the sword was about worth it, but times have certainly changed on that front.

Heavy psycannon has never really been worth it, and still isn't. Heavy incinerator is pretty decent--if you were to take one upgrade in addition to personal teleporter, that'd be the one. Really, though, I think more than that and you're starting to waste points.

Teleporter and fists seems to be pretty clearly the best build, at this point.

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 12:12 AM

All psilencers suck, including the Dreadknight one. Not even close to worth the points. And the CC upgrades actually hinder the Dreadknight (lose an attack, lose str 10, and/or just not cost efficient). The Incinerator is good, and now the psycannon is as well, but frankly the Dreadknight is too expensive to justify taking both.

Obviously the PT is a must, otherwise you'll just get shot to death before reaching CC, and the Dreadknight sucks at shooting. With the PT you can at least outflank and stuff, and put a lot of pressure on your opponent, and hopefully get into CC and kill some stuff.

As if point cost keeps any GK anything from being broken. :rolleyes:

The Dreadknight has never been even close to broken. And I don't mean that in the usual "well if you can't beat GK's then you just suck as a player" sort of way. I mean, genuinely, the Dreadknight is overpriced and mediocre. It's a finesse unit, and it can be fun and be used pretty well, but it's very, very fragile and very, very expensive.

Now, with the buffs to MCs and the increase to str 10, it's closer to being pretty good. It's still a finesse unit, because if you use it recklessly then it's just ~250pts down the drain with the roll of your opponent's dice. But it can threaten more stuff more effectively now to make up for its fragility.

And, seriously, if you don't think that a ~250pt, 4 wound Monstrous Creature is fragile, never play nidz. It would be a very rude awakening.

Other Gk units, on the other hand, get increases in firepower and durability appropriate to their cost. Especially now that 6th ed has come around. The only stuff that was ever 'broken' about the GK codex has now been nerfed, while the good-but-not-overpowered stuff is still just as good. Driago and friends aren't as crazy anymore, and MSU and razorback spam is a joke now so Coteaz and Crowe shouldn't be getting as much flak, if any.

Edit:
Btw, now not only does the greatsword cause you to lose an attack, and lose str 10, but MCs apparently already get a reroll of pen dice, one of the only reasons to even take the greatsword. It's actually a downgrade. The Daemonhammer trades off an attack for the Concussive rule, basically, which isn't worth it either.

I might try out the psycannon, though.

Wildcard

07-03-2012, 06:13 AM

Other Gk units, on the other hand, get increases in firepower and durability appropriate to their cost.

Hmm what do you mean by that?

Durability i can sort of understand, if we are talking terminators in here, paladins were always shot with ap1/ap2 with str8+ weapons anyway..

But the increase in firepower?

Sure, now that there is no definition of "defensive weapons", you can take psybolts into hurricane bolters on LR Crusader and stormraven.. stormraven being able to fire 4 weapons on the fly with its own BS, it could even be worth it now that it seems you are gonna be seeing a lot more footsloggers..

But, anything else got boost in shooting?

PS: Wonder can you still fire snapshots with psycannon as heavy weapon on non-terminator GK, or do you have to use the assault variant? (like in shots that would only harm if it did rend / or you had to fire snapshots anyway?)

bfmusashi

07-03-2012, 07:09 AM

What, you think the Dreadknight is broken or something? These changes take it from being fun but very situational, to being reasonably competitive against most everyone. Nothing more.

No, it just brings back unpleasant memories of people not reading the entire rule entry in 5th and insisting they got double strength from a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon. It also makes 10 points for a hammer and the presence of Hammerhand rather pointless. It smacks of something overlooked not a design.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 07:41 AM

The only stuff that was ever 'broken' about the GK codex has now been nerfed

What, so the whole codex has been nerfed?

Please don't tell me you view the GKs as anything this side of reasonable. I haven't looked into how 6th affects them, but the GKs were, prior to 6th, the most broken and douchey codex in 40k. And I routinely refused to play against them. Not because I'm a bad player and couldn't win. Because I'm a good player and couldn't beat bad players I could beat when they were running a different army. Edit to add: Against good players I get destroyed with little to no chance at all. Same story with DE. Which I why I usually don't play them, either.

Oh, and I do play Nids as my primary Army. I've never had too much of a problem with my MCs getting torched before being able to do something with them, but I'm tactically clever with them.

Wildcard

07-03-2012, 08:15 AM

Kjolnir: Here are some things that on the light of 6th can be said has reduced the power of GK:

- Force weapons now ap3. Aside from hammers, every single unit in gk army wont be just rolling over everything anymore (well, atleast not with 2+ save :) ) Still something to worry about -> means GK will have to bring more hammers -> less attacks prior to Initative 1. (and there were never many attacks to begin with)

- Vehicles got nerfed (assault aspects from rhinos / razorbacks atleast). No longer can you just hop out and finish your enemy. (true with all armies, but it hurts gk alot anyway)

- Stormbolters arent that great when compared to rapid fire weapons anymore (but still getting assault, so its more balanced that way i quess)

- probably no point in taking this up with nids BUT, GK being only imperial army that cant have battle-brother allies, making them from the imperial point of view, a little less prone to all those nasty ally-combos..

Those are the points that i came up firing on a hip.. there are probably more, since i am feeling so blue :) (or then they are just the common USRs that i am sad for..)

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 09:13 AM

Kjolnir: Here are some things that on the light of 6th can be said has reduced the power of GK:

- Force weapons now ap3.

Still rapes all MCs except for the Tyrannofex.

Aside from hammers, every single unit in gk army wont be just rolling over everything anymore (well, atleast not with 2+ save :) )

So either I have to take all Terminators, all something with invul saves, or all Tyrannofex's, etc? Come on.

Does Crowe still cause Purifiers to be troops? Yes? Then there's nothing in 6th that ends the stupidest possible list in the whole game. Though if someone does that now, I'll just Vector Strike them into oblivion, and never land until they're all dead.

- Vehicles got nerfed (assault aspects from rhinos / razorbacks atleast). No longer can you just hop out and finish your enemy. (true with all armies, but it hurts gk alot anyway)

I agree with you here, but this wasn't exclusive to GKs. Vehicles, IMO, are sucky death traps now. Winged MCs with Str 5/6 guns will fly behind one and glance it into the ground. Only things with AV 13/14 are safe. Transports are weak, IMO. Dreadnoughts, same story.

- Stormbolters arent that great when compared to rapid fire weapons anymore (but still getting assault, so its more balanced that way i quess)

And then they take psybolt ammo and make them awesome-er.

- probably no point in taking this up with nids BUT, GK being only imperial army that cant have battle-brother allies, making them from the imperial point of view, a little less prone to all those nasty ally-combos..

haha yeah.

Also, if I read correctly, there's nothing that prevents a 'Nid player from taking fortifications.

I will never do this. I can find no reasonable explanation for why a Nid would be able to not man, but somehow reprogram a fortification's emplacements to fire at what used to be friendlies.

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 10:12 AM

Ally combos are overrated. I'd like to see someone actually post a combo that would be truly broken, because I haven't seen one yet. People just talk about it, kind of like a magical unicorn.

Hmm what do you mean by that?

I mean that, as a unit gets more expensive, their abilities must grow exponentially to keep up.

A bonus attack isn't worth 10pts each on an entire unit of 20pt models. It's not even worth 5pts. It's worth maybe 1 or 2, because you're increasing the cost of the unit drastically while only increasing it's damage output in one small part of the game, while ignoring all other aspects of the game. Otherwise, all Marine would be absurdly overpriced and Guardsmen would just lasgun them to death effortlessly. Instead, Marines pay an appropriate amount for their +1 WS/BS/S/T/Ld/3+ save/ATSKNF.

GW did a very good job of understanding this with the new GK codex, even if most GK haters haven't. For their extra points, GKs get psychic powers, force weapons, psycannons, storm bolters, etc. Paladins get an extra wound. Purifiers get more psychic powers, Fearless, and an extra attack. If it weren't for that, GKs would be as impotent as the old Daemonhunter codex.

They failed in this with the Dreadknight, though, at least for the most part. In 5th, MCs weren't that good. Stuff that ignores a 2+ is common, and then you've only got a 5+ invuln and 4 wounds. You die extremely quickly. And the Dreadknight is very expensive to boot. And none of its guns are very good compared to other units you could get for much cheaper elsewhere in the codex, particularly psyrifle Dreads.

The Dreadknight wasn't so weak you couldn't use it effectively, but it was definitely below the average of the power curve.

Now, a lot of other stuff has been nerfed and MCs have been mildly buffed, and the Dreadknight in particular now gets the str 10 it was probably always supposed to have (and, btw, I accidentally played 3 games thinking it was str 10 because I forgot about that rules glitch and the game didn't explode. In fact, there was hardly any difference because in reality, there's rarely any difference between str 6 and str 10). Dreadknights are probably about average, now, so I'm going to play them more.

Please don't tell me you view the GKs as anything this side of reasonable.

Hah, and here it goes. I'll give you a pass because you play nidz, though you really should be able to differentiate between your army's weakness (which just got a big buff in a lot of ways) and GK's strengths.

The only thing that was ever broken about the codex was Rad/psykotroke grenades and the cheapness of psyrifle dreads and razorbacks. Vehicles got a big nerf now, so that's done, and Paladins are easier to shoot to death. Crowe and Purifier spam was always overrated. And while Coteaz was very good, now small acolyte units in vehicles suck so that problem's gone. And that right there covers every single GK list that could actually be considered broken.

As for the rest of the codex, really, all I can say is learn to play better. One or two specific items gave an otherwise average competitive list a good advantage, but that advantage was never as big as the haters claimed it was.

I forget where it was posted, maybe rankings HQ, but someone did an analysis of how many major tournament wins each codex had, and how highly they'd placed. That's thousands of games all across the world. And, yes, GKs came out on top. But only by a narrow margin over SWs and the other competitive codices. If you ignore Tau and maybe nidz and one or two other, weaker books, the game as a whole at the end of 5th was actually very balanced, and that includes GKs. Not that that made razorback spam fun to play against, but your argument is invalid.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 10:41 AM

Hah, and here it goes. I'll give you a pass because you play nidz, though you really should be able to differentiate between your army's weakness (which just got a big buff in a lot of ways) and GK's strengths.

That's my point. My weaknesses against GKs were due to the rules, not my ability as a player. That's the definition of "broken."

But, I do agree that Nids got a buff. The Flying MC rules are huge.

The only thing that was ever broken about the codex was Rad/psykotroke grenades and the cheapness of psyrifle dreads and razorbacks.

And psycannons, and purifier spam and I6 2W Termies with offensive grenades, and so on...

Vehicles got a big nerf now, so that's done

Agreed.

and Paladins are easier to shoot to death.

In what way? I'm not familiar with how Paladins are effected.

Crowe and Purifier spam was always overrated.

Ha! Speak for yourself kemo sabe.

As for the rest of the codex, really, all I can say is learn to play better.

Ha! A GK player used to rolfstomping everyone with the most broken army in all of 40k, and his advice is L2P. Now THAT'S funny!

One or two specific items gave an otherwise average competitive list a good advantage, but that advantage was never as big as the haters claimed it was.

Ha!

I forget where it was posted, maybe rankings HQ, but someone did an analysis of how many major tournament wins each codex had, and how highly they'd placed. That's thousands of games all across the world. And, yes, GKs came out on top. But only by a narrow margin over SWs and the other competitive codices. If you ignore Tau and maybe nidz and one or two other, weaker books, the game as a whole at the end of 5th was actually very balanced, and that includes GKs. Not that that made razorback spam fun to play against, but your argument is invalid..

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!! Ok.

So in other words, I was right the whole time, and only by ignoring reality and pretending that up to as many as four codices didn't exist were GKs sane.

Got it. Thanks.

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 11:04 AM

No, it just brings back unpleasant memories of people not reading the entire rule entry in 5th and insisting they got double strength from a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon. It also makes 10 points for a hammer and the presence of Hammerhand rather pointless. It smacks of something overlooked not a design.

I'm not sure if this would be affect by it, but can Hammerhands effect the Hammer of Wrath attack? Also I am now seeing the Dreadknight for what it is, the Monstrous Creature killer. It has a good change of getting one wound on an MC and can then Forceweapon it to death (unless MCs now have Eternal Weapon...which might....unless FW now ignores that...urrgghh so many rules to read).

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 11:26 AM

I'm not sure if this would be affect by it, but can Hammerhands effect the Hammer of Wrath attack? Also I am now seeing the Dreadknight for what it is, the Monstrous Creature killer. It has a good change of getting one wound on an MC and can then Forceweapon it to death (unless MCs now have Eternal Weapon...which might....unless FW now ignores that...urrgghh so many rules to read).

I'm not aware of any Tyranid MCs that have Eternal Warrior. MCs are not given Eternal Warrior by the BRB.

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 11:43 AM

I'm not aware of any Tyranid MCs that have Eternal Warrior. MCs are not given Eternal Warrior by the BRB.

Than excellent! Forceweapons in the face for all!

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 12:03 PM

Than excellent! Forceweapons in the face for all!

Well...FWs are only AP 3. Which means TFexes are a lot tougher by comparison.

And many Tyranid MCs are Synapse, or are going to be within 12" of one that is. So it's not a free-for-all MC pinata explosion party by any means.

Non-Tyranid MCs...maybe.

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 12:08 PM

You can't use a force weapon for your Hammer of Wrath attack. Dreadknights have to wait 'till I4 for that.

That's my point. My weaknesses against GKs were due to the rules, not my ability as a player. That's the definition of "broken."

But it was your codex that was broken, not the GKs. Cruddance did a very poor job of balancing your codex.

And psycannons, and purifier spam and I6 2W Termies with offensive grenades, and so on...

And soon, GKs are back to being the worst army in the game. You need to learn to differentiate between 'good' and 'broken'.

Rad/Psykotroke grenades are broken, though. That's actually the only thing in the whole codex that truly broken. There's other stuff that's underpriced (psybolts on dreadnoughts) and a bit too good in certain situations (cleansing flame), but most of the other stuff is just powerful enough to make up for how expensive GKs are. It's a very fine line to tread, and Ward could have done a significantly worse job than he did.

In what way? I'm not familiar with how Paladins are effected.

Wound allocation and assault nerfs in general. Multi-charges are nerfed, and it's easier to shoot Paladins to death. That's how that army functioned. You wound allocated everything away, and shoved the army down your opponent's throat. That doesn't work so well any more.

Crowe and Purifier spam was always overrated.

Ha! Speak for yourself kemo sabe.

Cleansing flame is silly against hordes. But against everything else, not so much. Purifiers are very expensive, and I've only very rarely seen an army with Crowe in the top spots at any major tournament.

Ha! A GK player used to rolfstomping everyone with the most broken army in all of 40k, and his advice is L2P. Now THAT'S funny!

I get to say it because I had a winning record with the old Daemonhunters codex. Y'know, back when it was tied with Necrons for the worst codex in the game;). And I didn't complain about how broken Space Wolves or IG were, either. I just learned to face and beat them.

Plus, just from observing top tournament games, the problem with dealing with GKs has more to do with player skill than numerical advantage. GKs absolutely have weaknesses, but unlike most army's weaknesses they're not in the stats or wargear (for the most part, GKs don't have any high ap ranged shooting, or melta), they're in the strategy the army uses. If you know how to deal with the tactics and strategies available to GKs, you win. If not, you lose. It's difficult for less competitive players to grasp those weaknesses, and so GKs seem invincible even when they're not.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!! Ok.

So in other words, I was right the whole time, and only by ignoring reality and pretending that up to as many as four codices didn't exist were GKs sane.

Got it. Thanks.

GKs having a tiny advantage over the other top codices is very, very different from being broken. And, again, the problem with the lower tier codices is those codices, not the GKs. Level your hate at Robin Cruddance, not Ward.

Plus, now that 6th is out, it looks more and more like GKs were balanced based on a lot of the stuff planned for 6th ed. That gave them an edge in 5th, but now most of any unfair advantage they might have had is gone.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 12:38 PM

You can't use a force weapon for your Hammer of Wrath attack. Dreadknights have to wait 'till I4 for that.

Sure you can. Force weapon effects are triggered on unsaved Wounds. Are you or are you not rolling To Wound when you resolve a Hammer of Wrath attack? Same deal with Poison, Rending, Boneswords, etc, all those "special" effects take place on Wound rolls or failed saves against Wounds. If you're not rolling to Wound on a HoW auto-hit, what are you rolling?

But it was your codex that was broken, not the GKs. Cruddance did a very poor job of balancing your codex.

LOL!! That's an interesting way of looking at it.

And soon, GKs are back to being the worst army in the game. You need to learn to differentiate between 'good' and 'broken'.

I think that remains to be seen. Just as it remains to be seen whether or not Tyranid Flying MCs are as awesome as I think they are.

Rad/Psykotroke grenades are broken, though.

Agreed.

Wound allocation and assault nerfs in general. Multi-charges are nerfed, and it's easier to shoot Paladins to death. That's how that army functioned. You wound allocated everything away, and shoved the army down your opponent's throat. That doesn't work so well any more.

Are you referring to the closest-furthest shooting wound allocation? Have you taken into account mixed saves and Look Out, Sir, that allow for more creative ways to assign those wounds? All Paladins are Characters, after all.

Sure they still get double-toughed by Anti-vehicle weapons, but that's no different now than in 5th. Now, however, with mixed saves, you can put your 2+/3+ guy up front, and if you make all the saves on him, you're 2+/5+ guys won't even get touched. I think that's better than before, where you HAD to allocate wounds to your 2+/5+ guys if you took enough.

Cleansing flame is silly against hordes.

In other words, against lists most Nid/Ork players played. So come on.

I get to say it because I had a winning record with the old Daemonhunters codex. Y'know, back when it was tied with Necrons for the worst codex in the game;). And I didn't complain about how broken Space Wolves or IG were, either. I just learned to face and beat them.

Right, right. So if Flying MCs are as awesome as I think they're going to be and I go around roflstomping players which I know to be otherwise very good, I'm just going to tell them to L2P, and hope that they don't hate me too much.

Plus, just from observing top tournament games, the problem with dealing with GKs has more to do with player skill than numerical advantage.

Right, right. L2P. Got it.

GKs having a tiny advantage over the other top codices is very, very different from being broken. And, again, the problem with the lower tier codices is those codices, not the GKs. Level your hate at Robin Cruddance, not Ward.

1) The advantage isn't tiny.
2) It's broken.
3) Mat Ward is the anti-Christ.

Plus, now that 6th is out, it looks more and more like GKs were balanced based on a lot of the stuff planned for 6th ed. That gave them an edge in 5th, but now most of any unfair advantage they might have had is gone.

So you admit they had unfair advantages in 5th? Thanks!

We'll see how it plays out in 6th. "True" balance after all should produce nothing but stalemates if you think about it, and stalemates would only be broken by player skill. Think Chess. The fact that skill can be trumped by rules argues against balance, not for it.

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 01:35 PM

Well...FWs are only AP 3. Which means TFexes are a lot tougher by comparison.

And many Tyranid MCs are Synapse, or are going to be within 12" of one that is. So it's not a free-for-all MC pinata explosion party by any means.

Non-Tyranid MCs...maybe.

Well unless I am reading this incorrectly, DCCW are AP 2....and NDCCW are DCCW with force weapon instant death power but treated as a DCCW in all other respects.

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 01:37 PM

I wish I had popcorn for this Darklink/kjolnir debate!

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 01:40 PM

Well unless I am reading this incorrectly, DCCW are AP 2....and NDCCW are DCCW with force weapon instant death power but treated as a DCCW in all other respects.

Yeah, that's a question of competing set values I think. You have one rule which sets the value at AP 2, and another that sets it at AP 3.

In that event, you'd do a roll-off, per the BRB.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 01:44 PM

I wish I had popcorn for this Darklink/kjolnir debate!

LOL.

I get that a lot ;-)

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 01:46 PM

Yeah, that's a question of competing set values I think. You have one rule which sets the value at AP 2, and another that sets it at AP 3.

In that event, you'd do a roll-off, per the BRB.

Well...I don't think it would be a roll off...it saws "Use the rules for a DCCW" and has a couple of extra rules and is listed as an unusual force weapon...so it does not follow the normal rules for a force weapon but the profile given and the rules in the GK book.

I can see your argument but I read it as AP 2.

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 01:54 PM

Sure you can. Force weapon effects are triggered on unsaved Wounds. Are you or are you not rolling To Wound when you resolve a Hammer of Wrath attack? Same deal with Poison, Rending, Boneswords, etc, all those "special" effects take place on Wound rolls or failed saves against Wounds. If you're not rolling to Wound on a HoW auto-hit, what are you rolling?

You're not using your weapon, any more than a tank shock or a ram uses a vehicle's gun. You just cause a hit at base str, ap-. If you were using a force weapon, the prerequisite for force weaponing someone, you would at least be AP3, and in the case of the Dreadknight str 10 ap2.

I think that remains to be seen. Just as it remains to be seen whether or not Tyranid Flying MCs are as awesome as I think they are.

What I meant was that if you took away every single good thing in the entire codex, then the codex isn't any good anymore. It's the difference between good and broken, again.

Are you referring to the closest-furthest shooting wound allocation? Have you taken into account mixed saves and Look Out, Sir, that allow for more creative ways to assign those wounds? All Paladins are Characters, after all.
Sure they still get double-toughed by Anti-vehicle weapons, but that's no different now than in 5th. Now, however, with mixed saves, you can put your 2+/3+ guy up front, and if you make all the saves on him, you're 2+/5+ guys won't even get touched. I think that's better than before, where you HAD to allocate wounds to your 2+/5+ guys if you took enough.

Fire Dragons are about the only thing that can put multiple high str/ap hits on something, so Driago always tanked everything anyways. And he's the only guy with better than a 5++. Not as big of a deal as you think.

And Look Out Sir is just a much, much less reliable way of allocating wounds. What you used to be able to do freely, you now can only do on a 4+.

So you admit they had unfair advantages in 5th? Thanks!

Do you know what the legal meaning of "no contest" is? I'm going to assume not, if you're going to put words in my mouth.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 02:09 PM

You're not using your weapon

Says who? Nowhere in the description of HoW does it say you are not using your weapon.

Besides, the Force insta-kill effect is triggered on unsaved WOUNDS. Are you or are you not resolving a WOUND when you roll to resolve a Hammer of Wrath attack?

What I meant was that if you took away every single good thing in the entire codex, then the codex isn't any good anymore. It's the difference between good and broken, again.

Huh? That makes literally no sense to me whatsoever. Taking everything "good" out of the Tyranid codex means they're even worse...so does that mean it's weak, or broken? How did you choose to define "good" things in the GK Codex? Why are they only "good" and not "broken." Since those are all subjective conclusions, I don't see this particular question coming to a resolution ;-)

Fire Dragons are about the only thing that can put multiple high str/ap hits on something, so Driago always tanked everything anyways. And he's the only guy with better than a 5++. Not as big of a deal as you think.

So you're telling me no Paladin will ever have a 2+/3+? Really? I've played against some that did. So I'm not sure what you're saying to me here.

And, my Devastators disagree with your Fire Dragons.

And Look Out Sir is just a much, much less reliable way of allocating wounds. What you used to be able to do freely, you now can only do on a 4+.

I suppose.

Do you know what the legal meaning of "no contest" is? I'm going to assume not, if you're going to put words in my mouth.

Nolo contendere? Yes. If I'm reading something into your words you didn't intend, I apologize. As a habit, I presume people equivocate, because when I get into a debate with people, they usually are. It's not you. It's me ;-)

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 02:15 PM

So you're telling me no Paladin will ever have a 2+/3+? Really? I've played against some that did. So I'm not sure what you're saying to me here.

How did you play against Paladins with 3+ invul saves? Do you cover saves with a Libby casting Shrouding? Or do you mean in Close combat with a paladin with a warding staff?

Bean

07-03-2012, 02:21 PM

I wish I had popcorn for this Darklink/kjolnir debate!

No kidding. This is priceless.

Also, Draigo has a 3++, which is probably what he's thinking about. That's, like, a good third of what Draigo does: soak lascannons and meltas on his storm shield.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 02:25 PM

How did you play against Paladins with 3+ invul saves? Do you cover saves with a Libby casting Shrouding? Or do you mean in Close combat with a paladin with a warding staff?

Bounding overwatch with three Devastator squads. As soon as I need to, the one closest to the Pallies falls back to get away from them while the other two keep shooting.

They'll fail enough saves eventually.

Problem is, it means I'm not shooting at other stuff that's a threat, and I'm trying to make up for it with less effective stuff, like Meltas on a Dread, or Assault Cannons on a Land Raider.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 02:26 PM

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 02:41 PM

Driago's got a 3++. Every other Paladin is stuck with a 2/5+ against shooting.

Says who? Nowhere in the description of HoW does it say you are not using your weapon.

The part where it says that the opponent simply takes an automatic hit as the base strength of your model and AP-. I would think that's pretty evident that you're not using a 2x Str AP2 Force Weapon for that.

Of course, if you want to let me do it to you, I won't complain;).

Huh? That makes literally no sense to me whatsoever

Ok, I'll rewind.

GKs have some pretty good stuff in their codex. They didn't used to. If you compare old GK units to new ones, the old ones seemed 'balanced' and the new ones seem 'op'. In practice, however, the old GKs were terrible, and the new ones are actually pretty balanced excluding one or two specific items.

Take away all the stuff that seems broken, and you just go back to the old DH codex where everything was overpriced and underpowered.

As I was talking about earlier, as a model gets more expensive it has to get exponentially more powerful, not linearly. Otherwise Grots would be the best unit in the game, because a basic Marine would be like 50pts due to the +2 WS/S/T/all the other awesome stuff they get over Grots. Instead, Marines are 16pts each, and frankly overpriced for normal vanilla Tactical squads.

Take out Rad/Psykotroke grenades, change Cleansing Flame to engaged models only or something, change the pricing on psyrifle Dreads, and play 6th ed, and what's broken about GKs? I can't think of anything. They're still good, but far from broken.

Nolo contendere? Yes. If I'm reading something into your words you didn't intend, I apologize. As a habit, I presume people equivocate, because when I get into a debate with people, they usually are. It's not you. It's me ;-)

No worries. I was just saying that, regardless of whether or not GKs are broken (that's the no contest part), they seem like they were designed with 6th ed in mind and most of the stuff that's actually proven to be broken/underpriced has been nerfed.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 03:26 PM

The part where it says that the opponent simply takes an automatic hit as the base strength of your model and AP-. I would think that's pretty evident that you're not using a 2x Str AP2 Force Weapon for that.

Except that MC creature players have the OPTION of halving their attacks for 2x strength. If they choose to forego that option, then attacks, even with weapons, are resolved at base strength. Think Tyranid Boneswords or Poison or Rending Claws. There's no reason why those effects would not apply to Wounds caused by a HoW attack. This might Preclude DCCW weapons, however, since the base strength sans the weapon is lower, right?

Of course, if you want to let me do it to you, I won't complain;).

Heck, I plan on doing it with my MCs. Go for it.

Ok, I'll rewind.

GKs have some pretty good stuff in their codex. They didn't used to. If you compare old GK units to new ones, the old ones seemed 'balanced' and the new ones seem 'op'. In practice, however, the old GKs were terrible, and the new ones are actually pretty balanced excluding one or two specific items.

If you're talking the old Demon Hunters, I'm right there with you.

However, balance is a relative term. If I have to pretend that up to four codices don't exist for GKs to be considered balanced, then they're not balanced.

Take out Rad/Psykotroke grenades, change Cleansing Flame to engaged models only or something, change the pricing on psyrifle Dreads, and play 6th ed, and what's broken about GKs? I can't think of anything. They're still good, but far from broken.

So in order for the Codex to not be considered broken, I first must remove all the broken stuff from the Codex?

How does that mean they're not broken? Isn't that recognition that they are?

No worries. I was just saying that, regardless of whether or not GKs are broken (that's the no contest part), they seem like they were designed with 6th ed in mind and most of the stuff that's actually proven to be broken/underpriced has been nerfed.

Maybe. I'm going to play them again in 6th and if I can be competitive, so be it.

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 03:37 PM

Other codices have plenty of particular items that you would probably call broken as well. You could talk all day about Space Wolves. GW is not particularly good at balancing stuff. But you seem to think everything in the GK codex is broken, when really it's a handful of specific items at worst. Give me like ten seconds with a pen and I could cross out/rewrite everything that needs fixing in the Gk codex. And even that stuff that is underpriced is not insurmountably good, not by a long shot.

And again, when 2/3 of the armies in the game are well balanced against each other, the problem isn't with those armies, it's with the 1/3 of armies that are outdated or written by Cruddance. Tyranids are broken, just not in the overpowered way.

kjolnir

07-03-2012, 03:43 PM

And again, when 2/3 of the armies in the game are well balanced against each other, the problem isn't with those armies, it's with the 1/3 of armies that are outdated or written by Cruddance. Tyranids are broken, just not in the overpowered way.

Makes sense.

Maybe now, they're not.

celestialatc

07-03-2012, 03:48 PM

No kidding. This is priceless.

Also, Draigo has a 3++, which is probably what he's thinking about. That's, like, a good third of what Draigo does: soak lascannons and meltas on his storm shield.

Sorry, when you say Paladin with a 3++ I don't think of Dragio, I think of the actual Paladin. My Bad!

Bean

07-03-2012, 05:03 PM

Sorry, when you say Paladin with a 3++ I don't think of Dragio, I think of the actual Paladin. My Bad!

Heh, I know what you mean. I was like, what? Paladins with storm shields? And then I remembered Draigo--he's not a paladin, but he pretty much always with a paladin unit, so he's kind of an honorary paladin, I guess. ;)

Lemt

07-03-2012, 05:22 PM

It can also take down dreadnoughts easily, since you'll get a S10 I10 attack if you have the personal teleporter.

Bean

07-03-2012, 05:38 PM

It can also take down dreadnoughts easily, since you'll get a S10 I10 attack if you have the personal teleporter.

The Hammer of Wrath attack is at the thing's base strength, not strength ten. It's not completely worthless against a dreadnaught, but it is mostly worthless.

DarkLink

07-03-2012, 06:21 PM

It's a nice little bonus for large squads. 10 Interceptors, or even better, 20 Hellion/Gargoyles.

Makes sense.

Maybe now, they're not.

Tau and Nidz seem to have come off pretty well in 6th, from what I've seen. Eldar... maybe not so much. Mechdar is hurting, and I haven't thought about how Footdar will work, and those were the only two general Eldar builds. Daemons will benefit from a lot of the same stuff that Orks and Nidz will, particularly the vehicle nerf. DE are hurting.

I think other than the Eldar books, everyone who needed it got a fair boost.

xilton

07-05-2012, 10:03 AM

And I hope they don't change it because now the NDK is really useful in my book. Having 4 s10 attacks will be awesome (maybe 5 on the charge...I don't actually know yet, still reading the book and don't know how the +1 for charging has changed).

The sword will still be good for rerolls but the hammer is now obsolete.

Ok I must of missed something. 4 attacks??? for what I have read, to have your 2xStr (S10) attacks you must use the special rule and it is 1/2 your attacks. We are actually getting somewhat a small nerf depending on how you see it.

lets supose we are using 2 doomfists. no charge

Before: 4 attacks at S6 + 2d6 for pen. giving us 8-18

Now: 2 attacks at S10 + d6 reroll so 11-16

I don't think the hammer is obsolete at all. You get 3 attacks S10 + d6 also giving us 11-16 but no rerolls.

add +1 attacks for the charge everywhere since we are rounding up.

I still prefer 4 attacks then 2.

kjolnir

07-05-2012, 10:17 AM

Before: 4 attacks at S6 + 2d6 for pen. giving us 8-18

Now: 2 attacks at S10 + d6 reroll so 11-16

The new system is better for you.

Why? Because anything above a 15 you don't care about, and essentially is a wasted roll anyway. 15 is the effective top end of any roll you want, and the new system still achieves that.

On the low end, with 8-18 you could still roll an 8 or 9 which would do nothing to transports. With Smash, you auto-pen any transport that you hit. That's a big improvement over nothing. The bottom end has been brought up such that no transport is ever safe from you now, so long as you hit it.

Now that 11 is your minimum roll you're auto-glancing anything AV12, and have a really good chance of a glance on AV 13, and an equal if not slightly better chance against AV14. Sure, the "average" roll on a D6 is a 3.5, but practically speaking, you can't roll a 3.5. Round it to 4 (which is right and proper according to both major rounding conventions), and feel better about it ;-)

In this new system, my frank belief is that glances are better than pens, because they're easier to get, and four glances or less will wreck any vehicle in the game.

celestialatc

07-05-2012, 10:48 AM

Ok I must of missed something. 4 attacks??? for what I have read, to have your 2xStr (S10) attacks you must use the special rule and it is 1/2 your attacks. We are actually getting somewhat a small nerf depending on how you see it.

lets supose we are using 2 doomfists. no charge

Before: 4 attacks at S6 + 2d6 for pen. giving us 8-18

Now: 2 attacks at S10 + d6 reroll so 11-16

I don't think the hammer is obsolete at all. You get 3 attacks S10 + d6 also giving us 11-16 but no rerolls.

add +1 attacks for the charge everywhere since we are rounding up.

I still prefer 4 attacks then 2.

Read the Dreadnought close combat weapon rules. It's 2x User's Strength (and not just Dreads but any unit with DCCW!). Unless I am reading this wrong, the Dreadknight can walk up to a vehicle and get Str 10 without giving up his attacks....will not get the reroll though.

xilton

07-05-2012, 11:07 AM

Read the Dreadnought close combat weapon rules. It's 2x User's Strength (and not just Dreads but any unit with DCCW!). Unless I am reading this wrong, the Dreadknight can walk up to a vehicle and get Str 10 without giving up his attacks....will not get the reroll though.

Yea but a NDK is not a walker, it's an MC so I don't think you can consider Dreadnought rules on this one as in 5th where many thought the fists attacks were Str10 also for the same reason. BUT they did remove that entry from the FAQs so don't know. I still think the DCCW rule does not apply for the NDK... If it does, yea, we got a boost there..

celestialatc

07-05-2012, 11:14 AM

Yea but a NDK is not a walker, it's an MC so I don't think you can consider Dreadnought rules on this one as in 5th where many thought the fists attacks were Str10 also for the same reason. BUT they did remove that entry from the FAQs so don't know. I still think the DCCW rule does not apply for the NDK... If it does, yea, we got a boost there..

I think it's pretty clear that the DCCW on the nemesis dreadknight is now s10. In the rules for the Nemesis DCCW is says use the rules for the DCCW....now the DCCW's 2x strength is no longer dreadnought only! It even says units in the DCCW description, not vehicles. You do lose out on the rerolls but the DK is looking to be one of the better MCs. It even gives us access to a AP 2 force weapon, something GKs are lacking now unless you want to take a bunch of Daemon Hammers.

But it still have the problem that any terminator has, put into fire on it and it's going to die. So you have to be careful.

xilton

07-05-2012, 12:00 PM

Well in 5th we still had the same rule to look at the DCCW rule and we still got the S6 FAQ for it. I don't recall in 5ed that DCCW was dreadnought only in it's rules. I may be mistaking. I'm not complaing, I have 3 NDK so the better is best. Just trying to make sure we don't get screwed again like in 5ed. I don't have either books with me right now so I can't check. :(

DarkLink

07-05-2012, 12:06 PM

Ok I must of missed something. 4 attacks??? for what I have read, to have your 2xStr (S10) attacks you must use the special rule and it is 1/2 your attacks. We are actually getting somewhat a small nerf depending on how you see it.

A Dreadknight with doomfists is str 10. It has 3 attacks base. With Doomfists, it has two ccw, for 4 attacks total. This is not 5th ed anymore. The rules have changed.

xilton

07-05-2012, 02:20 PM

I do hope they don't FAQ it again like they did in 5th. Crossing fingers.

thanks for your responses guys

DarkLink

07-05-2012, 03:32 PM

The only reason they FAQ'd it was they (presumably) didn't realize that back then, DCCW only doubled the strength of walkers. I'm pretty sure they intended the Dreadknight to be str 10, then realized 'oh, crap' when players pointed this out. Their hands were tied, so they had to FAQ it.

Now, there's no such issue, and they specifically removed that part of the FAQ when they updated the GK FAQ. So I wouldn't worry about it.

Archon Charybdis

07-05-2012, 10:26 PM

I don't have access to a GK codex to verify it, but I had an opponent claim that the wording on the NDK's sword was such that a model need only be "equipped with" the sword to allow the re-rolls. With the new changes to DCCWs he argued, this meant he could strike at S10 using the DCCW and still benefit from the sword without actually using it. Short of smacking him and saying don't be a douche, is there any rebuttal?

rle68

07-05-2012, 11:01 PM

GK in general got a well deserved nerfing

psychic powers are over take away a gk psychic stuff and they are over priced space marines

2 eldar farseers with runes of warding 4d6 added together go ahead cast might of titans PLEASE!

Better yet the dumb allies rules sw with eldar njal and eldrad dont need njal to cast anything eldrad can cast what he want njal can 3+ deny the rest

eldar ddint get too badly bent over vibro cannons are by far the best in the game now flyers dont get any save from them they AUTO glance

fire dragons the best high str unit versus 2 wound models? .. Seriously? share what your smoking cus long fangs will tell you to share or gtfo or kabalite trueborn with 4 blasters

and all the dk stuff makes me laugh eldar pathfinders or snipers in general can knock them out fairly easy

better yet a wraith guard unit can kill them 1 hit (unless dk have eternal warrior garbage)

the biggest losers in 6th are vehicles in general and the biggest winners are mc flyers

Wildcard

07-06-2012, 10:41 AM

For those who were wondering DCCW (on page 60):

Some troops are armed with huge close combat weapons - hammers, wrecking balls, claws and other crushing implements of death: (insert the chart here):
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon: Range - S 2x AP2 Type Melee[/I

There is not any mention that it explicitly only would affect dreadnoughts.

For the one who asked how Greatsword was worded:

(first the fluffy description)... [I]A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit, To Wound and armor penetration rolls in close combat (page 54 on GK-dex
Also on a same page: Nemesis Doomfist:
A Nemesis doomfists follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons

On page 94 on the Nemesis Dreadknight entry:
Wargear:
Dreadknight Armour
Two Nemesis Doomfists

And on same entry, about the Options for wargears
May replace one Nemesis Doomfist with one of the following: (here be the hammer and sword)

NOTE! Close combat weapon is NOT a specialist weapon on page 414 BRB.
- Thunder hammer is
- Nemesis Greatsword isn't (listed anywhere)

So, NDK With sword has 2x close combat weapons thus getting +1A (one from the fist (type melee, no restrictions) and second ccw from the sword)
- Since you have to choose the special rules from one ccw or the another, this means that you either will be hitting 4A on STR6, rerolling everything, or 4A S10 not rerolling stuff (unless you halve your attacks and SMASH tanks to pieces)

Thunder hammer on the other hand is Specialist weapon so you cannot gain additional Attack for two CCWS - Clearly this is your fast and hard hitting eternal warrior killer - get one hit through and on the next round you will be hitting first..

xilton

07-06-2012, 11:22 AM

I don't have the rule book with me but isn't a force weapon considered a special weapon. Thus we don't get that +1A since our weapons are "special" both being force weapons. Or did they change that in 6th.

also, would you make 4A with the fist or 2 bash attacks with the sword (giving you S10 rerolls on all)? I'm guessing on average it's about the same result sort of.

DarkLink

07-06-2012, 11:47 AM

So, NDK With sword has 2x close combat weapons thus getting +1A (one from the fist (type melee, no restrictions) and second ccw from the sword)
- Since you have to choose the special rules from one ccw or the another, this means that you either will be hitting 4A on STR6, rerolling everything, or 4A S10 not rerolling stuff (unless you halve your attacks and SMASH tanks to pieces)

Actually, you always get the reroll. It doesn't say "when using the greatsword you get to reroll", it says "models with a greatsword get to reroll". You purchase the reroll, and you always get it. For 25pts on an already 200+pt model that's a mere 4 wounds, it's the least they could do.

I don't have access to a GK codex to verify it, but I had an opponent claim that the wording on the NDK's sword was such that a model need only be "equipped with" the sword to allow the re-rolls. With the new changes to DCCWs he argued, this meant he could strike at S10 using the DCCW and still benefit from the sword without actually using it. Short of smacking him and saying don't be a douche, is there any rebuttal?

Actually, no, he's correct. Swords are a little better than I previously though. You might want to reserve your judgement until you've actually looked at the rules, because your opponent is 100% correct. Kind of a dick move on your part, assuming out of ignorance that your opponent was cheating. Chill out. It's not like it isn't an expensive upgrade on an already super-expensive unit.

And, no, neither DCCW nor the Greatsword are specialist weapons. So a Dreadknight with both gets +1A. Clarified above.

xilton

07-06-2012, 11:52 AM

ok so like I originally thought at the exception of the +1A. You basically only buy the sword to get your rerolls making bash on this baby useless since you already attack at S10 because of the fist and the sword gives you rerolls on it where I had mentioned you use the rules of both mixed together in this case because of the wording. I wasn't to far off then. lol

Archon Charybdis

07-06-2012, 03:34 PM

Kind of a dick move on your part, assuming out of ignorance that your opponent was cheating. Chill out.

I've watched you argue on these forums a lot, and isn't it a funny coincidence how everyone who disagrees with you or has a negative opinion of Grey Knights are idiot douches who need to L2P? I recognize that strictly speaking, the wording doesn't say the Dreadknight has to choose to use the sword to benefit from the re-roll. I happen to think this is probably an oversight, and contrary to the intent of the designers. I would defy you to point out any other melee weapon to me that grants a melee specific bonus that doesn't require you to strike with the weapon: "This weapon grants +2S. You don't need to use it to benefit though, go ahead and strike with your powerfist for S10 with rerolls all around!"

The closest thing on offer is Abbadon, but his rule about the Talons of Horus and Dracy'nyen is a single composite rule about how, in this specific instance, these two weapons work together. It's effectively a single weapon under the rules, yet the NDK clearly has two separate weapons.

Frankly you won't convince me that it was the intent of the designers for the Dreadknight to sit there holding his sword like a Popsicle stick and still get re-rolls while he punches guys to death with his robot fists. It'd be one thing if you could buy a special rule that granted re-rolls, but melee weapons have specific rules governing their use and this interpretation would run completely contrary to any other melee weapon in the game.

Consequently, thanks to equally oblique wording in the main rulebook, it seems I do have a RAW argument against this. The More Than One Weapon section on pg. 51 says not only that you have to choose which weapon to strike with, but it specifies a model "cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons." Is striking at S10 the ability of a melee weapon? Yes, it is conferred by the DCCW. Is re-rolling everything under the sun the ability of a melee weapon? Yes, it's conferred by the sword. Subsequently the two rules can't be "mixed and matched". QED

DarkLink

07-06-2012, 05:24 PM

I've watched you argue on these forums a lot, and isn't it a funny coincidence how everyone who disagrees with you or has a negative opinion of Grey Knights are idiot douches who need to L2P?

The 'dick move' specifically refers you to automatically assuming your opponent was a cheating douche and wanting to inflict physical harm, for no better reason than that you didn't read his codex's rules. Not only is it a dick move to take the game that seriously that you call your opponent a douche and want to hit him, but you even claimed to do it without having a good understanding of why your opponent was correct.

So chill out. It's not worth taking stuff so seriously.

Plus, here's a little psychology. You feel insulted by the fact that I called you out for something that's kind of a dick move. Now, you're not likely to admit that smacking your opponent and calling him a douche just because he's read the rules and you haven't is a dick move, because you feel insulted and humans are not very rational. So, again, chill out. We're all friends here, so when I said that I didn't mean it in a "oh, this guy on the internet is a dick". I meant it in a 'your friend does something rude and you call him on it' sort of thing.

Frankly you won't convince me that it was the intent of the designers for the Dreadknight to sit there holding his sword like a Popsicle stick and still get re-rolls while he punches guys to death with his robot fists.

Intent is irrelevant, because intent is some imaginary, made up quality that you, and only you, can arbitrarily define. I can just as easily claim that GW's intent for rad/psykotroke grenades was to affect every single model in the entire enemy army, not just the ones locked in the assault. Obviously rediculous, but that's what happens when you make up stuff that doesn't exist. And don't claim that you know what GW's intent is, because you don't. Unless you work for GW. Pics or it didn't happen.

What we are concerned with are the actual rules. What is on the page in front of you. That determines the rules of the game we play. So skip the intent stuff and just go to your RAW argument.

And I'm joking about the learn to play stuff. Mostly. It's complicated, and I've spent enough time trying to teach people how to deal with GKs in a way more producting than throwing up their arms that I don't really care all that much. Grey Knights were the top army in the game, but they weren't nearly as overpowered as many people assumed. So I alternate between 'this is why GKs are really good' and 'stop whining, this is how you can beat them'.

If you go back and read that whole discussion, you'll find that it was much more civil than you seem to think. We ended up in agreement on most accounts, and contrary to your recall I never called anyone an idiot or a douchebag. And I can promise you that, if you go back and look through everything I've ever posted, you will find that the only time I do call someone a dirty name it's because they are acting like whatever it was I called them, and had nothing to do with the opinion they held. Unless the opinion they held was what was causing them to act in such a manner, and I can think of a few cases like that.

Believe it or not, just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I hold them in contempt. And you were the one that put any insulting terminology in my mouth. I play competitively, and learn to play isn't an insult. Learning to face an opponent you have difficulty with is a valid point to make, particularly in the case of GKs because no one seemed to bother to try and adapt to face them.

Consequently, thanks to equally oblique wording in the main rulebook, it seems I do have a RAW argument against this. The More Than One Weapon section on pg. 51 says not only that you have to choose which weapon to strike with, but it specifies a model "cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons." Is striking at S10 the ability of a melee weapon? Yes, it is conferred by the DCCW. Is re-rolling everything under the sun the ability of a melee weapon? Yes, it's conferred by the sword. Subsequently the two rules can't be "mixed and matched".

Finally. I don't have the 6th ed rulebook, so I'm going off of memory and other people's quotes.

I agree with you here. This would trump the argument the other guy made that I picked up on. No need for some vague idea of intent or crap like that, this is an actual rule you can use.

So, we're back to the pick and choose str 10 or rerolls, one or the other. Ergo, the Greatsword's back to definitely not worth it, as opposed to merely not really worth it.

rle68

07-06-2012, 06:16 PM

Grey Knights were the top army in the game!!!... in your own opinion

frankly ill take my space wolves and put an end to that type of thinking.. gk had one thing going for them all there psychic powers you take that from them and your no better then over priced space marines.. and until 6th came out id put ragnar and wolf guard up against you any day

njal negates anything you cast on 3+ anything you cast outside of 24 inches wont mean anything so i dont care inside 24" im rollin

now if you play eldar and they have two farseers and runes of warding you wont be casting squat! 4d6 combined so please cast might of titans or hammer hand or anything!

and templars would give you more then a run for your money as well.. now they are on the shelf gathering dust

gk's are not done for but they are not the top of the food chain.. but they also were not the end all be all before 6th

DarkLink

07-06-2012, 06:52 PM

No one was the end all. But if you go off of total tournament wins and top placings, GKs beat out SWs by a small margin. I don't recall who the other top armies were, but I'm pretty sure Orks were third. And the gap between the top armies was very small. GKs barely beat SWs who barely beat Orks who barely beat IG (I think IG were up there), who barely beat whoever was next. Only Tau, Sisters, and Eldar got left behind, if I recall correctly.
Maybe Black Templar, because so few people actually play BT.

Point is, for 12/16 armies, the game is actually a lot more balanced than people think it is. And other than 'nidz, who were pretty low but still hanging in there, the weaker codices were all old codices, other than Sisters which has its own problems (no one plays them because the army is horrendously expensive and the rules are just :( ).

Edit:
And it looks like 6th has done a good job of not only leveling the playing field by checking the top armies and their vehicle spam stuff, but also buffing the weaker armies like Nidz and Tau. Eldar, BT, and Sisters might still be left behind for various reasons, but they all need a new codex anyways.