Tyranids in 6th edition

[Artanthos]

The new rules are live and the FAQ is out.

The game for Tyranids is completely changed. Boneswords rock vs terminators, Flyrants just became scary, and while genestealers outflanking is nerfed into oblivion Broodlords can now challenge.

Null deployment is dead: there goes my army.

What are peoples opions on the changes? Did tyranids gain or lose? What new lists are people building? What do you think the high and low points are for tyranids in 6th edition?

[mathhammer]

1. tyranids hate the point ranges
1500 - 1999
3500 - 3999
2. Drop pods still go in reserve and don't count towards the half of your army in reserve. (since it is a must not a shall)
3. Flying hive tyrants are not scary.
-) every time you are HIT by small arms fire you have a 33% chance to crash and burn.
-) you must stop movement in a valid point (no impassable terrain)
-) You have no anti- flyer ability.

4. The psychic powers are the saving point for tyranids.
5. Anti-vehicle is still very weak.
6. Close combat is bad (6th is more about shooting, 4th was the close combat game)

Overall Tyranids got weaker in 6th. Still a fun army just not a tournament army.

[jifel]

I would say that our anti vehicle is actually pretty decent. Vehicles are harder to one shot now, but are easier to overwhelm. Dakkafexs eat rhinos for breakfast, While Hive Guard are still great as they can take out almost all vehicles in the game. A Trygon will kill anything in the game that it can catch at this point, except maybe a few other MCs, like a LW Tyrant or the SL, but those are ours anyways.

[mathhammer]

I would say that our anti vehicle is actually pretty decent. Vehicles are harder to one shot now, but are easier to overwhelm. Dakkafexs eat rhinos for breakfast, While Hive Guard are still great as they can take out almost all vehicles in the game. A Trygon will kill anything in the game that it can catch at this point, except maybe a few other MCs, like a LW Tyrant or the SL, but those are ours anyways.

and this was all true in 5th.

[Artanthos]

3. Flying hive tyrants are not scary.
-) every time you are HIT by small arms fire you have a 33% chance to crash and burn.
-) you must stop movement in a valid point (no impassable terrain)
-) You have no anti- flyer ability.


- With Biomancy look at a S 7-9 / T 7-9 as standard
- - A single S9 hit from crash and burn may not wound. It will only ever be 1 / turn.
- - Vetor strikes vs vehicles become very effective

- Fasy and maneuverable
- - Your heavy weapons / special characters won't be able to hide in the back.
- - Vehicles won't be able to hide from a Flyrant. It WILL be able to hit them.

- Anti Flyer Concerns
- - Most armies currently have little to zero anti-flyer capabilities. IG has the most.
- - The flyrant is more concerned about large units of infantry than standard AA fire.
- - Vector Strikes work vs flyers. Most flyers have only 2 hull points.

- Crash and Burn
- - Will not kill a Flyrant in and of itself. Results only in a possible wound and loss of Jink for the turn.
- - Does open up the possibility of assualt. Flyrant WILL challenge.

[oldone]

I believe we got better although to be better we have to change our tactics completely. I can see gaunts becoming worth the points tag as they can now be reliable as no retreat has got. We also have the benefit that cover is now easier to gain on our monstrous creatures as as its only 25% that is needed to provide cover plus the fact that night fighting is more frequent in the game I believe this will allow our monstrous creatures to be more survivable and as we will be relying more on gaunts it means that if they take too many heavy weapons they won't be able to deal with our large numbers. Another change to our benefit is feel no pain as it now can operate as an invulnerable save whereas before it was negated by our opponents choice of heavy weapons and power weapons. This leads me on to another of my points we can now be sure that our largest creatures are survivable in combat as the new close combat rules means we are the only Army that can ignore armour reliably over the board as power weapons got weaker. I've believe that with the right list we are on a better standing than last edition as we do not have to rely on breaking open a bunch of tin cans with shooting.

[Megad00mer]

3. Flying hive tyrants are not scary.
-) every time you are HIT by small arms fire you have a 33% chance to crash and burn.
-) you must stop movement in a valid point (no impassable terrain)
-) You have no anti- flyer ability.


It's not everytime you are hit. It's per unit basis. If a unit scores one more hits, you take a grounded test which is passed on a 3+. It's really not that bad. Plus you can elect to dive and gain a 5+ cover save.

Since MC's have Move Through Cover and Move Through Cover allows you to ignore dangerous terrain tests, a Flyrant can move around the board much easier. Also, MC's can now take full advantage of being in area terrain. Swoop into a piece of area terrain, gain a 5+ cover, no dangerous terrain test and enemies need 6's to hit you. Pretty damn good if you ask me.

When swooping you can elect to run 2d6" forward. Flying MC's are now hideously fast.

No Anti Flyer ability? Dual TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms would like a word with you. Yes, you need 6's to hit, but you have 12 shots which can reroll misses. At Str 6, we have a good chance to peel 3 hull points off of pretty much any flyer in the game barring a Stormraven.

[Kawauso]

No Anti Flyer ability? Dual TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms would like a word with you. Yes, you need 6's to hit, but you have 12 shots which can reroll misses. At Str 6, we have a good chance to peel 3 hull points off of pretty much any flyer in the game barring a Stormraven.

12 shots re-rolling misses is still only landing 3-4 hits...and then you need a 6 to take a hull point off most Imperial flyers (Stormraven, Valkyrie/Vendetta). For everyone else it's a 5/6, which is still pretty rough.

No better than a Vector Strike, really...though at least you can combine them.
I'm going to miss the 2D6 armour pen.

And I'm stuck wondering how the hell to keep my 'Nids caught up with everyone when I don't want any 'guns' in my army...was able to do alright in 5th but now I'm not so sure. =/ Guess we'll see.

[mathhammer]

Swoop into a piece of area terrain, gain a cover, no dangerous terrain test and enemies need 6's to hit you.


This is a good point. I forgot flying creatures aren't on a flying base.

[DarkLink]

5. Anti-vehicle is still very weak.

But it's much better than it was last edition. Plus, anti-vehicle is much less relevant because vehicles are much weaker now. So not only did you get a few direct buffs to your anti-vehicle stuff (blasts always full strength, hitting vehicles on 3+), but the meta has changed to favor fewer vehicles. That's very good for nidz.



6. Close combat is bad (6th is more about shooting, 4th was the close combat game)

Overall Tyranids got weaker in 6th. Still a fun army just not a tournament army.

Before you lay judgement down, you might want to consider the buffs you've gotten as well, and at least bother to wait to play a few games first. No more No Retreat is a huge buff to hordes. MCs are better. Vehicles are weaker. Nidz are better overall, even if you can't do a full reserve army any more.

[Chris Copeland]

I CAN do a fully reserved army but I'd have to stick to units that use mycetic spores. As soon as you attach a spore pod to a unit it has to come in via deep strike. Cheers...

[Artanthos]

Each spore cluster counts as a unit for purposes of counting fielded units.

I can easily field enough spores to keep everything else off the board turn 1.

[DarkLink]

I CAN do a fully reserved army but I'd have to stick to units that use mycetic spores. As soon as you attach a spore pod to a unit it has to come in via deep strike. Cheers...

No, you must deploy at least half of your army. Sticking them in mycetic spores doesn't dodge that, though the mycetic spores themselves don't count towards what is in/out of reserves.

[Chris Copeland]

No, you must deploy at least half of your army. Sticking them in mycetic spores doesn't dodge that, though the mycetic spores themselves don't count towards what is in/out of reserves.

Sorry, DL. I disagree with you. The Mycetic Spore is a Unit Upgrade. As soon as it is part of the unit the unit cannot be deployed normally because a Mycetic Spore has to start in reserve. I can't see any way around that. Cheers.

[gcsmith]

If every unit has a spore then half the army can start the game in reserve. Say you have 20 units, so half of 20 is 10. Then 10 spores must go in reserve so don't count. The other 10 can then go in reserve.

[mathhammer]

Before you lay judgement down, you might want to consider the buffs you've gotten as well, and at least bother to wait to play a few games first. No more No Retreat is a huge buff to hordes. MCs are better. Vehicles are weaker. Nidz are better overall, even if you can't do a full reserve army any more.

I never did reserve armies for my Tyranids, why make it easier to pick me apart?

I also got in games this weekend, should get in more this week,

The fearless wounds were never an issue for me, when I hit something in close combat I arranged it so I would destroy it or move it, i never really needed a tarpit that was going to killed killed by fearless.

The main thing I have noticed about charging is you need a sacraficial unit to charge first. Lets see you got some boosted up hormagaunts or even stealers, to charge space marines say a 10 man squad you may loose 3 to 4. I would rather take the looses elsewhere, say something fast enough to stay with hormagaunts, Ahh gargoyles. But taking the gargoyles kills the harpies that you need. Also on speed Tyranid charging also got hurt. Hormagaunts move 6 then (run 3d6 (plus reroll)) or (charge 2d6 reroll) so on turn 2 you can reach 6 + 6 +6 + 12 = 30 inches (best case) average will be around 24 inches. so just like the other guys your a turn 3 close combat army.

- Venomthropes don't give defensive grenades any more, so no using them to try to attack vehicles.
- Venomthropes don't lower initiative to 1 for the cloud.

MCs are stronger in some areas and weaker in others.I would rate it as more of a push right now. Carnifexs have more trouble killing land raiders than before, but HTs can kill land raiders easier. The preferred enemy and adrenal gland nerf is really sad, hurts a lot of things for the little guys.

I see everyone claiming venom cannons are not he best thing ever. There rules are the same as before really. The problem before wasn't the VC verses the vehicle it was the venom cannon drifting onto your troops, As a CC army having templates usually means your killing your own guys.

On a side note, noise marines will cause space marine players to cry now.

[mathhammer]

If every unit has a spore then half the army can start the game in reserve. Say you have 20 units, so half of 20 is 10. Then 10 spores must go in reserve so don't count. The other 10 can then go in reserve.

NO

the 10 spores go in reserve then the remain 10 units are split 5 in reserve 5 deploying.

page 36 2nd paragraph left column

[Chris Copeland]

NO

the 10 spores go in reserve then the remain 10 units are split 5 in reserve 5 deploying.

page 36 2nd paragraph left column

What do you mean by that? A Mycetic Spore can't deploy. It (and the unit it carries) can't start on the table so what would you have them do? They have to start in reserve.

In the end the half rule doesn't matter if everything has a Spore Pod. It's not possible to start a Spore Pod on the table at all... lastly, Codex>BRB. Cheers and good gaming to all! Cope

[DarkLink]

Sorry, DL. I disagree with you. The Mycetic Spore is a Unit Upgrade. As soon as it is part of the unit the unit cannot be deployed normally because a Mycetic Spore has to start in reserve. I can't see any way around that. Cheers.

Are they required to deploy in the Spore? If so, then you're good, otherwise they're part of the army that you must deploy half of. The spores themselves are ignored.

But if they are not required to deploy in the spores, there's no escaping it, you must deploy half your army. Unless GW decides to update their FAQ, but I wouldn't count on it. Releasing the FAQs the day of probably exhausted their limited ability to provide support for their own game.

[Tynskel]

- Venomthropes don't give defensive grenades any more, so no using them to try to attack vehicles.
- Venomthropes don't lower initiative to 1 for the cloud.

MCs are stronger in some areas and weaker in others.I would rate it as more of a push right now. Carnifexs have more trouble killing land raiders than before, but HTs can kill land raiders easier. The preferred enemy and adrenal gland nerf is really sad, hurts a lot of things for the little guys.



I thought dangerous terrain checks would = difficult terrain. might want to check that.

Before hand, Carnifexes would need a 6 to hit. Almost never happening = almost never destroy land raider (or anything)
Now, you get re-rolls with 3+ to hit. On top of that, anything that glances does dmg. And you have the potential of more damage from pens.

No, the Carnifex is more like than every to destroy land raiders now. Better chance than any MC.

[Tynskel]

Are they required to deploy in the Spore? If so, then you're good, otherwise they're part of the army that you must deploy half of. The spores themselves are ignored.

But if they are not required to deploy in the spores, there's no escaping it, you must deploy half your army. Unless GW decides to update their FAQ, but I wouldn't count on it. Releasing the FAQs the day of probably exhausted their limited ability to provide support for their own game.

Spore Pods are dedicated Transports. And you must be in the spore. Grown on the way down.

[Kawauso]

Are they required to deploy in the Spore? If so, then you're good, otherwise they're part of the army that you must deploy half of. The spores themselves are ignored.

But if they are not required to deploy in the spores, there's no escaping it, you must deploy half your army. Unless GW decides to update their FAQ, but I wouldn't count on it. Releasing the FAQs the day of probably exhausted their limited ability to provide support for their own game.

I have a feeling that the wording of the rules is going to work out to that effect - if that's the case, however, I'm ignoring it.

Only 50% of your army going into reserve isn't terrible...I don't really like the change, but I can kind of see why it was implemented. I'm counting units that take spores/drop pods as one and the same as far as the 'must deploy in reserve' thing is concerned, though. Because otherwise an all-pod army doesn't work the way the fluff intends.

At first I was impressed by the day-one FAQs...then I read them. :(

[Sonikgav]

Spore + Zoanthropes + Psychic Shriek. Providing your opponent doesnt get lucky with 'Deny the Witch' that could be horrendously devastating.

Ymgarls are still a valid pop-up and assault tactic too and as has been said the Flyrant is a scary beast right now.

The only thing that i worry about with Nids is Overwatch. I know its only snap-shots but it only takes a couple of hits on smaller units like Stealers to knock the wind out of their sails. Telekine Shield is a great way to protect n reflect against it but its random if you even get that power.

[Chris Copeland]

Are they required to deploy in the Spore? If so, then you're good...

Yes. Per the newest Tyranid FAQ:


Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can it choose to deploy normally whilst the empty Mycetic Spore deep strikes on it's own? (p 54)
A: No.So there it is. For 40 points per unit you can have a completely reserved Tyranid army. Cheers! Cope

[Tynskel]

you can totally make a completely reserve bug list.

HQ
Tyrant with wings and hive commander (flying monsterous creature)

Troops:
Terms in spore pod.
Tervigon= outflank.
Genestealers in a pod
hormoguants in a pod.

Elites
Ymgarls in terrain
Doom in a pod
venomthropes in a pod

Fast Attack
Harpy
Harpy w/ hv venom cannon

Hv Support
Screamer Killer in a pod
Screamer Killer in a pod
Screamer Killer in a pod

[DarkLink]

Yes. Per the newest Tyranid FAQ:


Ok, then that's solved then.

[Transgressor]

you can totally make a completely reserve bug list.

HQ
Tyrant with wings and hive commander (flying monsterous creature)

Troops:
Terms in spore pod.
Tervigon= outflank.
Genestealers in a pod
hormoguants in a pod.

Elites
Ymgarls in terrain
Doom in a pod
venomthropes in a pod

Fast Attack
Harpy
Harpy w/ hv venom cannon

Hv Support
Screamer Killer in a pod
Screamer Killer in a pod
Screamer Killer in a pod

You'd have to deploy at least half of the things that aren't in pods or Ymgarls. That's 2 units in this list by my count. Also something to keep in mind is that little bit in the rulebook under victory conditions that says if you have no units on the board at the end of any game turn, you lose right there. If you're not careful (or just unlucky) your 2 units could get hosed by some shenanigans and the game ends before it begins.

[Lemt]

Gargoyles with Adrenal Glands now eat any vehicle for breakfast. 20 Gargoyles assault, 40 attacks (ignore the extra I10 attack since it's only S3). On average you'll take away all the hull points from a vehicle and thus wreck it. Same with Hormagants with glands.

[Melon-neko]

You CAN make an all reserve army for tyranids (all pods +1 winged tyrant) but then it auto loses because mycetic spores are not drop pods and half do not automatically come down on the first turn. =\

[Chris Copeland]

Yes, but the Tyrant can act as a reserve accelerator if he's kitted right. I don't see that as auto lose.

[Tynskel]

You'd have to deploy at least half of the things that aren't in pods or Ymgarls. That's 2 units in this list by my count. Also something to keep in mind is that little bit in the rulebook under victory conditions that says if you have no units on the board at the end of any game turn, you lose right there. If you're not careful (or just unlucky) your 2 units could get hosed by some shenanigans and the game ends before it begins.

My understanding is that Flying Monsterous Creatures can automatically reserve (flyers). At that point, the only thing is the Tervigon, which my understanding 1/1 unit can be placed into reserves. If that is incorrect for Tervigon, then replace it with more spores.

[Sonikgav]

My understanding is that Flying Monsterous Creatures can automatically reserve (flyers). At that point, the only thing is the Tervigon, which my understanding 1/1 unit can be placed into reserves. If that is incorrect for Tervigon, then replace it with more spores.

The thing is a Flying Monstrous Creature isnt the same as a Flyer. It doesnt have to start the game in reserve and thats what i think some people are mixing up.

The only things that are exempt from the 50% rule are things that HAVE to start in reserve with no option to walk on. Flyers, Drop Pods/Spores, Special Deployments etc.

Giving something outflank, or a deployment rule that gives it an option like Trygons etc doesnt count. It just has to start on the board edge.

You can still do an all reserve list but its gotta be specific. Basically EVERYTHING has to be able to take a Spore outside of Ymgarls and Lictors.

[Tynskel]

ah, so reduce the flyer count to 1 (ie hive tyrant), and replace the tervigon with pods, lictors, or ymgarls.

[Melon-neko]

Yes, but the Tyrant can act as a reserve accelerator if he's kitted right. I don't see that as auto lose.

Can he bring them on, on turn 1?

If you have no models on the board at the end of a game turn, you lose. Most reserves (except drop pods) don't start coming in til turn 2.

[Tynskel]

that has never been the case. Having no models on the board only occurs when you have no models left, or the game ends with no models on the board.

[rhothy]

With all the changes in 6th your focused on an all reserve list? What about the fact that MC can no longer be instant killed. And carnifi can charge with an I10 attack at AP 2. At 2k points you can run 6 spites meaning you can run venomthropes 5+ cover save to units within 6 inches.

You can now run VT hidden behind tervigons, carnifex units, trynefex ec... night fighting+VT = 3-4+ cover saves with no instant death. Smash those tanks open and let your army rip them to pieces never having to worry about fearless wounds.

Old one eye is good now... causes fear... I10 HOW attack at std 10. Not to mention that he can issue challenges.

Parasite of maltrix can now get look out sir in a unit of 30 gargoyles. Add a unit of. Winged ripper swarms in the front to provide cover and you can now swarm a tank with 30 gargoyles and rip it open with PoM at str 6 thus trapping everyone of those passengers from getting out.

[Nimor]

If the spores are a dedicated transport and must be in Reserve they are not counted towards the half
page 124

[Lemt]

If you fully reserve your army, you lose the game (you lose if you don't have any minis on the table at the end of each turn).

My full-reserve Tyranid army is dead, I¡ll have to change it for 6th.

[DarkLink]

I actually appreciate that GW did that. No more 'Ok, I deploy, then wait three turns for you just to show up, and oh now the game's over turn 5 before we even got started'.

[rhothy]

If you fully reserve your army, you lose the game (you lose if you don't have any minis on the table at the end of each turn).

My full-reserve Tyranid army is dead, I¡ll have to change it for 6th.

Deployment rodent count because if it did chaos would lose every take that they didn't go first since they cannot deploy anything during deployment phase.

[mathhammer]

Old one eye is good now... causes fear... I10 HOW attack at std 10. Not to mention that he can issue challenges.


Not a character, can't accept challenges

[Gloomfang]

Not a character, can't accept challenges

Uhmmm yes he is. Special charaters who are unique and deploy in units of one (like Mephiston) are characters. So is Deathleaper, Swarmlord and DoM. I think its on pg64. Its with the rules that state they always have to accept a challange. Its also why there are no specal characters in the back of the book.

[DarkLink]

Deployment rodent count because if it did chaos would lose every take that they didn't go first since they cannot deploy anything during deployment phase.

You misunderstand the rule. If you do not have any models on the table at the end of any turn, you auto-lose. You don't have to deploy anything, but if stuff hasn't come on the board by the end of your first turn, tough luck. Daemons have their daemonic assault rule, though, so they're safe.

[Gloomfang]

Deployment rodent count because if it did chaos would lose every take that they didn't go first since they cannot deploy anything during deployment phase.

I hate to double post but I need to wiegh in on some of the very wrong information in this thread on Null Depoyment.

1) Yes you autolose turn 1 if you have no units on the table at the end of a turn. Deployment is not a turn. Both demons and SM have the ability to bring in reserves turn 1. As Nids do not roll for reserves until turn 2 they lose if they have nothing that can be deployed.

2) There are only 2 units in the Nid codex that HAVE to go in reserves. One are Lictors (DL incuded) and Mycetic Spores. FMC are not flyers and can be deploied as normal. Ymgral stealers have the OPTION not the requirment to deploy dorment.

3) Vector Strike and Hammer of Wrath use your unmodified strength profile. Biomancy, AG or anything else does not buff that attack. HT vector strike at S6 always.

4) Gargoyles, while buffed can not take down many vehicles. They can only glance AV10. So at AV11+ (Looking at you dreadnaughts) they can't do anything. And if you mess it up your in trouble if they are in synapse becasue you can't "Our Weapons Don't Work" becasue they are fearless.

Ok, got that out of my system. If people need pg numbers I'll be happer to dredge them up.