Dominate vs. Vehicles

[Bergermeister84]

So in the 6th ed rule book, the psychic power Dominate (#1 in the Telepathy discipline) targets a "unit." It forces the unit to make a leadership test before it moves, shoots, runs, or declares a charge. What happens when it targets a vehicle? I cannot find anything in the rulebook that says vehicles are immune to psychic powers without strength values. The closest thing is a line stating that vehicles never take "moral" tests. But a moral test is a specific type of leadership test and wouldn't really come into play against Dominate. Vehicles don't have a leadership stat so do they automatically pass or automatically fail?

[DarkLink]

Vehicles don't even have a leadership value to use in the first place, excluding the psychic pilot thing which is irrelevant. If you can't find clear justification to let you do something, you probably can't do it. I don't have the book to look at, though. I'm not spending $75 on any book for casual use.

[Bergermeister84]

Yea, that is my gut reaction as well. It would be nice however if they simply said that vehicles don't make characteristic or leadership tests or something similar.

[EnglishInquisition]

No codex to hand, but I think there's a daemon power that affects vehicles with leadership if they want to fire - they are considered to be Ld 10 for that purpose. That's a precedent if nothing else but like I say no codex and not sure if FAQ'd in new FAQ's!

[Wildeybeast]

Whilst it doesn't openly state it, it clearly cannot affect vehicles since they have no leadership charateristic, which is different from having LD '-' where you would automatically fail. If you have no LD characterstic at all, you cannot take LD tests in the first place. In the ame way, vehicles cannot take S, T, etc. tests. If you look at power 2 in telepathy, it regroups targets which are falling back and gives them fearless. Clearly this will have no effect on vehicles.

Furthermore, psychic powers explictly state when they affect vehicles, such as Crush and Objuration Mechanicum in telekinesis. Safe to say, unless it says it affects vehicles or is obviously capable of doing so, they will have no affect on vehicles.

So to answer your question, nothing happens if you cast it on a vehicle. Since they are a unit you are free to target them, it would just be redundant to do so.

[Bean]

There is no rule which says that a model without a leadership value cannot make a leadership test. In fact, it seems clear that a model with a leadership test can (and occasionally must) make leadership tests--it's just not capable of passing or failing them (both passing and failing specifically do require comparing a roll to a leadership roll, though making a leadership test in general does not).

I say it takes the test but neither passes nor fails. In the case of Dominate, it needs to pass in order to avoid consequences--since it is incapable of passing, it suffers the consequences.

That's the only reading I can come up with that is consistent with the rules as written (though I would agree that the power is almost certainly not intended to affect vehicles.)

And for the record, simply calling the vehicle immune because it "cannot take a leadership test," is clearly not consistent with the rules as written. There are no rules which state or produce that interpretation.

edit:
Honestly, with regard to dominate, specifically, it doesn't matter whether a vehicle can take a leadership test or not. Again, the target unit is required to pass a leadership test in order to avoid consequences. If you can't take a leadership test, you can't pass one--thus not being able to take a test would also leave the vehicle suffering the consequences automatically.

That makes Dominate pretty awesome (at least till they put out an FAQ for it).

[Tynskel]

Vehicles don't even have a leadership value to use in the first place, excluding the psychic pilot thing which is irrelevant. If you can't find clear justification to let you do something, you probably can't do it. I don't have the book to look at, though. I'm not spending $75 on any book for casual use.

Yeah , if you are going to do that, you might as well spend 132 to get the nice one, like me.

[Wildeybeast]

There is no rule which says that a model without a leadership value cannot make a leadership test. In fact, it seems clear that a model with a leadership test can (and occasionally must) make leadership tests--it's just not capable of passing or failing them (both passing and failing specifically do require comparing a roll to a leadership roll, though making a leadership test in general does not).

I say it takes the test but neither passes nor fails. In the case of Dominate, it needs to pass in order to avoid consequences--since it is incapable of passing, it suffers the consequences.

That's the only reading I can come up with that is consistent with the rules as written (though I would agree that the power is almost certainly not intended to affect vehicles.)

And for the record, simply calling the vehicle immune because it "cannot take a leadership test," is clearly not consistent with the rules as written. There are no rules which state or produce that interpretation.

I might have guessed that Bean would disagree with me and come up with an utterly nonsenical interpretation of the rules. Every step of your argument is flawed.

1) P3 states that vehicles have their own characterstics and are covered in the vehicle section. At no point in the vehicle section does it say anything about vehciles having leadership values or taking leadership tests. Therefore they don't.
2) The first step of the leadership process test on p7 clearly states that you roll 2d6 and compare to the vehicles LD. You have no leadership characteristic to compare against thus the test is invalid.
3) Your argument that the test in neither passed nor failed is invalid since the leadership test rules explicitly state that the test is either passed or not, there is no scope for a middle ground, that is you making up rules.
4) The third bullet point says that if the result is greater than the models leadership, it sufers the dire consequences. Since the model does not have a leadership charateristic at all, there is nothing to compare against and so it cannot be said to be higher. Thus it cannot suffer the negative consequencs as you state.

Any more daft rules interpretations you need me to clear up for you? ;)

[Bean]

I might have guessed that Bean would disagree with me and come up with an utterly nonsenical interpretation of the rules. Every step of your argument is flawed.

1) P3 states that vehicles have their own characterstics and are covered in the vehicle section. At no point in the vehicle section does it say anything about vehciles having leadership values or taking leadership tests. Therefore they don't.
2) The first step of the leadership process test on p7 clearly states that you roll 2d6 and compare to the vehicles LD. You have no leadership characteristic to compare against thus the test is invalid.
3) Your argument that the test in neither passed nor failed is invalid since the leadership test rules explicitly state that the test is either passed or not, there is no scope for a middle ground, that is you making up rules.
4) The third bullet point says that if the result is greater than the models leadership, it sufers the dire consequences. Since the model does not have a leadership charateristic at all, there is nothing to compare against and so it cannot be said to be higher. Thus it cannot suffer the negative consequencs as you state.

Any more daft rules interpretations you need me to clear up for you? ;)

Not only is this almost entirely wrong, it's actually entirely irrelevant. See my edit. ;)

The vehicle has to pass a leadership test in order to move, shoot, run, or charge. If it cannot take a leadership test, it cannot pass one. So, even if we were to agree that it cannot take a leadership test, that would only mean that a Dominated vehicle cannot move or shoot.

edit again:

Ah, never mind.

Looks like failure is a required trigger. So, the power against the vehicle does leave you in some unresolvable limbo.

That's a shame. I was really hoping the game wasn't broken.

edit again:

And it is broken--Wildeybeast's predictable blather notwithstanding, there is no cogent RAW argument for the conclusion that vehicles can never be obligated to take a leadership test.

[Wildeybeast]

I love how I put together a structured argument with clear rules references and you make up stuff that have no foundation in the rules and have to edit your arguments three times because you have no idea what you are talking about yet I'm the one who is blathering. Still, I'm not getting into yet another endless debate where you make stuff up and ignore what others say no matter how many rules they have to back it up. Bergermeister, you have my interpretation with supporting arguments or you have Bean's without (and where it's not actually clear what he thinks he's edited that many times). Pick your poison.

[SotonShades]

Pg 76 has a section, Vehicles, Leadership and Morale.

The essence is that vehicles never take Morale checks. Unfortunately that is the be all and end all of it. It doesn't say that they don't take Leadership tests.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a typo, but as far as I can tell (until GW FAQ one way or another, at least) there is nothing to stop this power being cast on vehicles. The only reference to Ld of Vehicles I have seen is that Pschic Pilots are Ld 10 for those purposes, and in every previous edition since 2nd they have been Ld 10, so as a compromise, I would syggest that that would be the Ld you use.

I believe this is a situation covered on Pg 4 though; The Most Important Rule.

"In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occassions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page...

Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a manner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course.)"

I would therefore suggest discussing that rule with your opponant before the game (even before rolling for deployment zones etc, let alone whether you actually have this power availible to you or not) and agree on one ruling to follow for the game. As the Most Important Rule goes on to say, if you cannot agree, roll a D6. on a 1-3 you are correct, on a 4-6 he is.

[Wildeybeast]

Pg 76 has a section, Vehicles, Leadership and Morale.

The essence is that vehicles never take Morale checks. Unfortunately that is the be all and end all of it. It doesn't say that they don't take Leadership tests.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a typo, but as far as I can tell (until GW FAQ one way or another, at least) there is nothing to stop this power being cast on vehicles. The only reference to Ld of Vehicles I have seen is that Pschic Pilots are Ld 10 for those purposes, and in every previous edition since 2nd they have been Ld 10, so as a compromise, I would syggest that that would be the Ld you use.

I believe this is a situation covered on Pg 4 though; The Most Important Rule.

"In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occassions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page...

Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a manner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course.)"

I would therefore suggest discussing that rule with your opponant before the game (even before rolling for deployment zones etc, let alone whether you actually have this power availible to you or not) and agree on one ruling to follow for the game. As the Most Important Rule goes on to say, if you cannot agree, roll a D6. on a 1-3 you are correct, on a 4-6 he is.

Seems like a sensible way of settling it in the absence of definitive guidance, I'm sure this will get FAQed one way or the other.

[DarkLink]

No codex to hand, but I think there's a daemon power that affects vehicles with leadership if they want to fire - they are considered to be Ld 10 for that purpose. That's a precedent if nothing else but like I say no codex and not sure if FAQ'd in new FAQ's!

Not a precedent, it's merely a special case that doesn't apply to this situation. That rule only grants a vehicle Ld 10 when that, and only that, rule is being used, and that rule only applies to vehicles at all because it is specifically stated that it does. That doesn't grant other, unrelated rules, permission to affect vehicles.

[Wildeybeast]

Not a precedent, it's merely a special case that doesn't apply to this situation. That rule only grants a vehicle Ld 10 when that, and only that, rule is being used, and that rule only applies to vehicles at all because it is specifically stated that it does. That doesn't grant other, unrelated rules, permission to affect vehicles.

Not to mention it's from a previous edition and as such can hardly be taken as setting a precedent for rules sepecific to this edition.

[EnglishInquisition]

But if that ruling had been clarified in it's own FAQ then it would be relevant as the FAQ's are for this edition, and would set an example and precedent. That's the point I was making.
Seems the rules lawyers have set out their stalls already!
;-)

[DarkLink]

No. It's not precedent. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely related to whether vehicles can generally take leadership tests.

In one, and only one, special, unusual, specific circumstance, that rule makes vehicles take a leadership test, maybe. No one's even quoted that rule directly yet.

Otherwise, everyone could claim that ATSKNF sets a precedent for everyone being able to rally under any circumstance. It's obviously not the case, because ATSKNF is a specific rule that modifies the normal rules. Same thing with whatever this rule is. It's irrelevant to the question posed in this thread.

[Bean]

Precedent really only applies to the question of intention--and when it comes to intention, I don't really think there's an argument. Dominate pretty clearly wasn't intended to work on vehicles.

The question, really, was whether there is a RAW resolution, and it seems like there is not. The vehicle is forced to take a leadership test. There's no functional way for a vehicle to take a leadership test. The game breaks. End of story, really.

Since the game breaking is an unacceptable result, I think we'll probably just go with the (again, pretty clear) intention on this one and say that dominate has no effect on vehicles.

[Col.Straken]

Isn't there a rule aboutsychic pilots (vehicles), where they are LD10 for psychic tests and anything to do with psychic powers, including being affected by them?

If there is (and I don't have my 6th ed yet so I can't check) maybe only Psychic Vehicles can be affected?

[Bean]

Isn't there a rule aboutsychic pilots (vehicles), where they are LD10 for psychic tests and anything to do with psychic powers, including being affected by them?

If there is (and I don't have my 6th ed yet so I can't check) maybe only Psychic Vehicles can be affected?

vehicle psykers have a leadership value for the purposes of manifesting psychic powers--not for being affected by them. It'd be nice, though.

[Col.Straken]

vehicle psykers have a leadership value for the purposes of manifesting psychic powers--not for being affected by them. It'd be nice, though.

Look at the Blood Angels FAQ (knew I had seen it somewhere). If nothing else, you can cast it on a Blood Angels Furioso Librarian Dreadnought!

[Wildeybeast]

Look at the Blood Angels FAQ (knew I had seen it somewhere). If nothing else, you can cast it on a Blood Angels Furioso Librarian Dreadnought!

He is an exception. Firstly he only 'counts as' having a LD value rather than having one and the only reason for this is to enable him to cast powers. So it can be used on him, but only him. This does not set a precedent.

[Lerra]

No codex to hand, but I think there's a daemon power that affects vehicles with leadership if they want to fire - they are considered to be Ld 10 for that purpose. That's a precedent if nothing else but like I say no codex and not sure if FAQ'd in new FAQ's!

That Daemon power is The Changeling's Glamour of Tzeentch special rule. It's spelled out in the codex that, if vehicles are required to take a Ld check from that power, they are considered Ld10. While not a rock-solid precedent, I think it's a reasonable suggestion of how to handle Dominate vs. Vehicles in lieu of an FAQ. It's as close to a parallel situation as you're going to get - forcing a unit to pass a Ld check or suffer consequences.

[Bean]

That Daemon power is The Changeling's Glamour of Tzeentch special rule. It's spelled out in the codex that, if vehicles are required to take a Ld check from that power, they are considered Ld10. While not a rock-solid precedent, I think it's a reasonable suggestion of how to handle Dominate vs. Vehicles in lieu of an FAQ. It's as close to a parallel situation as you're going to get - forcing a unit to pass a Ld check or suffer consequences.

That would be a reasonable house rule, given that there's no functional RAW answer.

[Col.Straken]

He is an exception. Firstly he only 'counts as' having a LD value rather than having one and the only reason for this is to enable him to cast powers. So it can be used on him, but only him. This does not set a precedent.

Never said it did set a precedent, I said you can cast it on that one model, as it specifically states about it being affected by psychic powers.

[EnglishInquisition]

That Daemon power is The Changeling's Glamour of Tzeentch special rule. It's spelled out in the codex that, if vehicles are required to take a Ld check from that power, they are considered Ld10. While not a rock-solid precedent, I think it's a reasonable suggestion of how to handle Dominate vs. Vehicles in lieu of an FAQ. It's as close to a parallel situation as you're going to get - forcing a unit to pass a Ld check or suffer consequences.

Thanks Lerra- that's the one I was talking about. Don't play daemons (only been on the receiving end of it) that's why I didn't know the rule. Seems a sensible way to go, and I feel a little vindicated as it is a psychic power affecting a vehicles "Ld" just like Dominate- sounds like a precedent to me!

[Wildeybeast]

That Daemon power is The Changeling's Glamour of Tzeentch special rule. It's spelled out in the codex that, if vehicles are required to take a Ld check from that power, they are considered Ld10. While not a rock-solid precedent, I think it's a reasonable suggestion of how to handle Dominate vs. Vehicles in lieu of an FAQ. It's as close to a parallel situation as you're going to get - forcing a unit to pass a Ld check or suffer consequences.

I would like to know the exact wording of that rule, because the way you have phrased it "if vehicles are required to take" leaves room for the possibility that:
a) since vehicles have no LD they are never required to take checks
b) psychic powers clearly state when vehicles are affected and since dominate does not, vehicles are not compelled to take the test.

Depending on the exact wording, I'd be inclined to say this does not set a precedent, nor clear up this situation and that the most important rule is still the best way to go.