6th Edition - Mixed Saves rule WTF?

[Akaiyou]

Can anyone else who has the rulebook help me understand this rule?

It says that if the unit has mixed saves you allocate wounds on the closest model until he dies basically....at least thats what i'm understanding from reading it. It seems like 1 model can take every single wound if he keeps passing his saves.

Where as if they all have the same save, you just roll for everyone together and then apply unsaved wounds to the closest model until he dies.

It doesn't say to allocate wounds to each model in the unit from closest to furthest, this is a huge departure from what was 4th and 5th ed. I'm confused....

So am i understanding these rules properly or am i missing a key word somewhere?

[DarkLink]

Pretty sure you've got it right.

[godsvendetta777]

the way i understand it is that you roll the save of the closest model, then the next and the next and so on. so let's say you have a grey hunter squad with an attached wolf guard termie and from closest to furthest the order is GH WG GH, you would take you're wound pool and put one wound on the GH, roll it's save. then put the next wound on the WG, roll it's save. wash rinse repeat.
I see how you could be confused however, when they say "continue putting wounds on the closest model" they mean after the first one takes it's save, the next one takes his and so on.
It kinda seems like the author didn't intend on wording being that read into that much, but it is very weirdly worded looking at it again.

[pauljc]

They way I read it, GW has either intentionally written it this way so that the closest model takes the brunt of an attack until he goes down, OR it is just badly written, and the intent is that, starting with the closest models and working outwards, allocate an unsaved wound, etc etc.

If it's the first one, then pretty much nobody is ever going to have their squad leaders heroically lead from the front..

Edit: reading the allocating wounds section in the Assault Phase chapter, it is pretty specific that you keep allocating wounds to it until it dies or the wound pool is empty.

That's not to say that the allocation of wounds is identical between shooting and assaults, but it does seem that GW's intention with the new rules is to ensure that the idiot standing at the front of the unit takes hits until he either goes down, or the pool runs out.

I suppose it would be easy to read that as meaning that any character dumb enough to stand in front is basically gonna get auto-murdered if the opponent has enough hits going down.

But, if he's clad in Terminator armour, it's probably sound logic that a mob of orks would jump on him first to try and pull him down with stabbers and choppers!

[Lukaz]

Surely that only works if only the termie armoured dude is in base to base, otherwise the other GH will get hits allocated when the enemy in base to base with them attacks.

[pauljc]

Yeah of course. Exact wording aside, you start (if possible) with a model in base-to-base.

[whitestar333]

Furthermore, you can take an IC with a good save to be a bullet magnet for the rest of the squad it's attached to. I'm thinking about a Farseer tossing Fortune onto a Shadowfield Archon, and sticking that Archon out in front of an Incubi squad, soaking up firepower on a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save.

[RealGenius]

If it's the first one, then pretty much nobody is ever going to have their squad leaders heroically lead from the front..

Don't forget that any Characters can take a "Look Out, Sir" and put the wound on someone else. ICs get it on a 2+, so they can pretty reliably lead from the front.

[kappa1az]

if im reading that correctly Pg 16 says that you can look out sir, each wound allocated so an IC can 2+ look out 3 lascannon shots and take the bolters himself...

tim

[Chris Copeland]

if im reading that correctly Pg 16 says that you can look out sir, each wound allocated so an IC can 2+ look out 3 lascannon shots and take the bolters himself...

tim

No, the wounds that are delivered in one round of shooting have to be distributed first to all of the clostest models. If eight wounds were done then eight wounds would have to be applied. However, if you went through three models before you got to a model with a different save you'd resolve those before switching to the different save (or perhaps the Look Out Sir). I don't read anything that makes me think you would be able to dump everything onto one model.

[kappa1az]

sorry chris

meant to say IC with 2+ save in a mixed unit, so i believe thats how it reads

Tim

[Anggul]

Furthermore, you can take an IC with a good save to be a bullet magnet for the rest of the squad it's attached to. I'm thinking about a Farseer tossing Fortune onto a Shadowfield Archon, and sticking that Archon out in front of an Incubi squad, soaking up firepower on a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save.

Sadly a 'Dark Eldar' doesn't count as an 'Eldar' when it comes to rules. They're technically two different things, and Fortune and Guide both specify 'friendly Eldar unit'. Unless of course it states somewhere in the new rules that battle brothers psychic powers work on all allies regardless of what the codex says, in which case yeah go for it.

[joedrache]

the way we interpret it, the dude up front does soak all the damage, til he goes down. so dante w fnp bounces all the shots off or look out sirs them all. not 8 shots to all 8 closest, thats 5th ish.

so you get behind his unit and kill all the lookouts first, better yet, snipe that priest.

its hero-hammer.

[DarkLink]

sorry chris

meant to say IC with 2+ save in a mixed unit, so i believe thats how it reads

Tim

The 2+ save still has to be the closest model to take the hits.

[Rolyroly]

So, basically as it stands...we have a tactical squad doing the conga

"do do doooo, come on and do the....arrrrgh failed save

[Strangleweb]

Here's how I understand it...

Let's say you have a unit of 5 marines, led by a captain in artificer armour. From closest to furthest it goes marine, marine, captain, marine x3.

I shoot at the unit and get 6 hits at AP5, 2 at AP2. I decide to do the AP5 ones first to try and get the AP2 ones on the captain. Since there are 2 marines before him, you roll 2 saves and make them both. You then roll 2 more (on the same two marines) and fail one. There are two AP5 ones left, and only one marine now, so you roll one save, and pass, then then roll again, and pass again.

We're now on the AP2 shots. The first automatically kills the marine. The second goes to the Captain, who fails his Iron Halo save and look out sir and so takes a wound (or dies if the shot was S8+, let's assume it wasn't).

If this still doesn't make sense, try getting some models out and trying it "in-game" - it soon makes sense. Also read the "fast dice" bit for another example.

[DarkLink]

Technically I think you only roll one armor save at a time, but, yeah, rolling 2 at a time for the first two Marines would speed things up.

[Strangleweb]

Yeah, there's an example of this in the "Fast Dice" box.

[Chris Copeland]

Technically I think you only roll one armor save at a time, but, yeah, rolling 2 at a time for the first two Marines would speed things up.

I don't think you are technically required to roll one save at a time. The "Fast Dice" section covers this: "Even in units with mixed saves, it is not always necessary to allocate Wounds one at a time. You can instead allocate them in groups equal to however many models with the same, best save are nearest to the firing unit."

[kjolnir]

I read that part of the 6th Ed. BRB, and I think the OP is correct. In units with mixed saves, the closest model can potentially absorb all of the shooting if it makes its saves. It's only when that model is killed do wounds become applied to the next closest model.

Read this, too. With units with identical saves, you makes the saves first, BEFORE wound allocation, then remove closest to furthest. Interesting. The shooting player also gets to decide the order in which shooting wounds are applied for shots with mixed strength and AP values.

Wow.

[Wildcard]

Yeah, clear as day:

- Nearest model keeps taking saves until its wounds drop to 0
- Second nearest model keeps taking saves until its wounds drop to 0
- And so on.

And as kjolnir pointed out:
Say you got 4x wound from bolters and 4x wounds from plasmaguns. You then make 2 'pools' from them, and decide if the bolter or plasma wounds are resolved first.

Note:
- All wounds from a specific pool has to be resolved fully before moving on to the next pool
- Strategically important if you got 2+ save dude up front:
-- Do you use your plasma shots to bring it down, and leave bolter wound pool for the dudes behind him or other way around.

[Mithay]

Okay with this clever rule keep allocating wound to the closest model you can do the following?--->

Draigo lead the way in front of paladis. Draigo soaks the hell of damage with his 2+/3++ 4wounds eternal warrior. And at any time he can just move some wounds to different paladins on 2+ lookout sir!?
And ofc put some other "pimped out" IC on some flank to prevent flank shots for same shaenigans.

Thats just really crazy its probably even better than in last edition allocation to different loadout.....

So GW again totally failed to prevent crazy wound allocation...

P.S. we tested the game today with something very similliar with Necron council with 2 overlords,2lords and 2 crypteks and it pretty much sucked all of opponent firepower

[DarkLink]

If you look out sir, you don't get to use the save of the model you're protecting. Driago can't take the 3++ against a lascannon, then have a Paladin die for him. If you Look Out Sir the lascannon, you're stuck with the Paladin's 5++.

Of course, if everyone has the same save value then it doesn't matter if you roll saves or Look Out Sir first. But Driago doesn't grant the entire squad a 3++.

[Nachodragon]

If you look out sir, you don't get to use the save of the model you're protecting. Driago can't take the 3++ against a lascannon, then have a Paladin die for him. If you Look Out Sir the lascannon, you're stuck with the Paladin's 5++.

Of course, if everyone has the same save value then it doesn't matter if you roll saves or Look Out Sir first. But Driago doesn't grant the entire squad a 3++.

Well...

Look out sir says wound or unsaved wound. So, if your IC in front does not makes his save you can try a LOS on a 2+ and allocate the unsaved wound to someone else. They will not get to take another save as this is an unsaved wound, they just take the wound.

Alternatively, if your IC has a worse save and you don't want to try and save with him, you can try a LOS on a 2+ and move the wound to another model. They would then get to take their save as it is still 'live'.

[DarkLink]

It's not very well worded, yes. But the way I'm talking about is consistent with both the "saved and unsaved wounds" and the fact that they state that every model uses its own armor save if you follow the rule. I don't have the book with me so I can't say how clear RAW is, but this is either RAW and RAI, or RAW is unclear and this is RAI. As much as I hate to even use the term RAI, but again, I don't have the book to directly reference.

[sfshilo]

People are really thinking about this too much. All GW did was make the odds stacked against the dude in the front. Don't think so much about it being "one guy taking all the damage".

[Nachodragon]

It's not very well worded, yes. But the way I'm talking about is consistent with both the "saved and unsaved wounds" and the fact that they state that every model uses its own armor save if you follow the rule. I don't have the book with me so I can't say how clear RAW is, but this is either RAW and RAI, or RAW is unclear and this is RAI. As much as I hate to even use the term RAI, but again, I don't have the book to directly reference.

Not quite following this here. Unless there is another section I am not reading, no where does it say the model taking the wound needs to use their armor save. So, the 2+ model in front can potentially save all the wounds and any that have been failed can be LOS'd with a 2+ and the 'kill wound' gets allocated to another model and they just take it, and take it like a man :P

This does slow down some potential games, and really only comes into play with the already ridiculous setups that we have all come to hate, er love, er, hate.. or whatever.

This gets even more retardededed when you have mulit-wound models. I have read through several times and cannot find a place where it forces you to allocate the wound (a Look out sir wound*) to an already wounded model. SO... those paladins and bikers and other BS things... have gotten f*cktarded again.

*You have to continue to take wounds to the front guy until dead and then allocate to another guy and allocate until dead. So normal non-LOS wounds are still wound model til dead.

[Nachodragon]

People are really thinking about this too much. All GW did was make the odds stacked against the dude in the front. Don't think so much about it being "one guy taking all the damage".

most times this will not be the case and the front guy will eat it quick, the problem comes down to 'Look out, sir' for an IC and a unit that can gobble up the wounds. Hopefully, this gets a nice little FAQ.

Though, if someone is rolling horribly and they try this, it will eat up ICs quickly. :D

[The AKH]

Well...

Look out sir says wound or unsaved wound. So, if your IC in front does not makes his save you can try a LOS on a 2+ and allocate the unsaved wound to someone else. They will not get to take another save as this is an unsaved wound, they just take the wound.

Alternatively, if your IC has a worse save and you don't want to try and save with him, you can try a LOS on a 2+ and move the wound to another model. They would then get to take their save as it is still 'live'.

I think the "unsaved wound" example in that rule is only pertinent when the character/IC using "look out sir" has the same armour save as his squad - ie. they would roll their saves at the same time.

So a Space Marine Sergeant and his squad roll saves together, if the Sergeant is wounded then on a 4+ he dodges the wound and one of his buddies eats it instead.

If a Space Marine Captain in artificer armour was in the squad, his saves are separate - so you would roll for "look out sir" before rolling any saves.

[Nachodragon]

Pg. 15, it states you would allocate one at a time and roll for the wound if different saves. If you have an IC closest, you would roll his save then and/or you would have to roll the LOS. Also, the LOS would be useless for anything that did not have the same save and it does not state you need to have the same save..

Most IC's have better saves then the chumps they are leading.

[Bean]

The nice thing about Draigo and Paladins is the fact that, even if Draigo isn't in the front of the unit, the Paladins can make Look out Sir! rolls to shunt melta and lascannon hits to Draigo and his storm shield. My wife played her first sixth ed game with paladins yesterday, and Draigo's excellent dice let him shrug off an entire melta vet/demo charge squad.

[Sir Biscuit]

It's not written explicitly, but you can't actually allocate save you fail. You can only attempt to Look Out, Sir when the wound is ALLOCATED. So you can't allocate to your character, take the character's save, and then LO,S. It has to be before you take any saves, at the moment allocation happens. I was thinking the same thing until someone pointed this out to me (http://projectbiomorph.com/index.php?topic=147.0).

[Bean]

It's not written explicitly, but you can't actually allocate save you fail. You can only attempt to Look Out, Sir when the wound is ALLOCATED. So you can't allocate to your character, take the character's save, and then LO,S. It has to be before you take any saves, at the moment allocation happens. I was thinking the same thing until someone pointed this out to me (http://projectbiomorph.com/index.php?topic=147.0).

When you make Look out Sir! rolls depends on whether the target unit has mixed saves or not.

If the unit doesn't have mixed saves, it works like this:

Pre-save wounds go on the unit. The unit makes that many saves, all at once. Unsaved wounds are allocated to models in the unit: closest first until it dies, then next closest until it dies, and so on. If an unsaved wound is allocated to a character, it can immediately make a LoS roll to ship the unsaved wound to a different model--which then takes a wound (no saves, because the save has already been taken).

If the unit does have mixed saves, it works like this:

Pre-save wounds are assigned to the closest model, and he keeps making saves until he dies. Then pre-save wounds are allocated to the next closest model, which keeps making saves until it does, and so on. If a pre-save wound is allocated to a character, it can make an LoS roll to ship the pre-save wound to a different model--which then has to make a save (since no save has yet been taken.)

So, if what you're saying is that Draigo can't make an invulnerable save and then make an LoS roll to send the unsaved wound to a paladin, you're right.

However, a paladin can make an LoS roll to send a wound to Draigo before any saves are made--and if Draigo fails the save, Draigo takes the wound. (but, since Draigo has four wounds and Eternal Warrior, this is often better than the Paladin taking a wound that would inflict Instant Death.)

Does that all sound right?

[Sir Biscuit]

Was discussing this with Kirby while you posted, that's exactly the conclusion we came to, which makes it make sense why it has that (unsaved wound) thing in there. A bit confusing but pretty simple once you get it down.

[Bean]

Was discussing this with Kirby while you posted, that's exactly the conclusion we came to, which makes it make sense why it has that (unsaved wound) thing in there. A bit confusing but pretty simple once you get it down.

Yeah, sometimes the rules have you allocating unsaved wounds (wounds for which you've already failed your save) and sometimes they have you allocating wounds (pre-save wounds, or wounds for which you haven't yet taken a save) and Look Out Sir works on whichever type you're allocating for that particular set of shots.

Glad we're in agreement =)

[Nachodragon]

Let's have a simple scenario.
1 IC with a 2+ saves, 3 wounds.
10 Guys with 5+ save, 1 wound each.
15 wounds are caused , AP-. (so it's easier)
IC is standing in front.
This is a mixed save scenario. You have to roll for each save separately.
First wound allocated to IC. He rolls 2+.
Second Wound allocated to IC. He rolls 2+.
Third wound allocated to IC, He rolls 1. He performs a LOS and gets a 2+. This is an unsaved wound and is sent to a Guy (and dies).
Fourth wound allocated to IC. He rolls another 1. He performs a LOS and gets a 1. IC takes first wound.
The IC makes the next 4 wounds. Then fails the next to saves and LOS rolls. He has taken 3 wounds and dies.
There are now 4 wounds left. They can be rolled together for the remaining guys, and any unsaved wounds are removed closest to furthest.

[DarkLink]

Nacho, go read over the posts above yours. Theirs is the correct interpretation. A character with a superior save does not grant it to the entire squad. You can't take a 3++ on Driago, then pass it off to a Paladin if you fail the save.

[Nachodragon]

I don't understand what they are saying. What is pre-save wounds? That is not a thing. Wounds are allocated to the closest unit. In the event of mixed saves you roll them individually and keep assigning wound to the closest model (in my case the IC with 2+) until he is dead or no more wounds....

If all the models have the same save then roll all the same. If the IC is in front then either he is dead or everyone around him is dead....

5 guys all same saves and wounds, 1 is an IC.

10 wounds. Roll 6 successful. 4 unsaved wounds. 1 allocated to IC, 3 to other guys. Roll LOS and get 2+. All guys dead, IC lives...

What am I missing. Cause this seems logical to me.

[Bean]

The thing that you are missing, nacho, is that LoS is made when a wound is allocated. In the case of the target unit with mixed saves, the wound is allocated before the saves are taken. Thus, the LoS roll must also be made and the wound re-allocated (if the roll is successful) before the save is made.

By the time the independent character in your example has made a save for a given wound, he's well past the point when the wound was allocated to him, and thus is no longer able to make a LoS roll.

When the target doesnt have different saves, only unsaved wounds are allocated, and LoS therefore re-allocates unsaved wound (wounds for which the save has already been failed).

When the target does have different saves, only wounds (wounds against which no save has yet been taken) are allocated. Thus, only wounds (and not unsaved wounds, as they are not allocated in this acenario) can be reallocated.

[Nachodragon]

Ok, I think I get it. I was glossing over the word allocated. This makes sense. Now, we know this will be FAQ'd, I guess we shall see how GW goes about it.

[Bean]

Ok, I think I get it. I was glossing over the word allocated. This makes sense. Now, we know this will be FAQ'd, I guess we shall see how GW goes about it.

Glad we're on the same page. Why do you think it'll be faqed, though? It actually looks to me like it works as intended.

[Nachodragon]

Was being facetious. I think it works well now that i get it, but GW does weird unnessecary things in FAQs.

[Bean]

Was being facetious. I think it works well now that i get it, but GW does weird unnessecary things in FAQs.

Ah, lol. Fair.

[DarkLink]

It would have been nice if they could actually phrase rules accurately and concisely in the first place.

[Flammenwerfer13]

They way I read it, GW has either intentionally written it this way so that the closest model takes the brunt of an attack until he goes down, OR it is just badly written, and the intent is that, starting with the closest models and working outwards, allocate an unsaved wound, etc etc.


Basically this, GW is world famous for poorly written rules that make sense too only them.

[magicstorm]

Actually if you read page 15 of the rules book, you see that in the first paragraph they use "allocate wound" refering to wounds before saves are made, then you look down to allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties. They are refering both times to allocated wounds (before and after saves are made).

Now look out sir says you can rellocate wounds (saved and unsaved) so it means that it can be done before or after saving the wound. It does say you have only one chance to save the wound so you wont be able to try and resave but you can pass the wound after it has been failed to save. Please point me to where it says it has to be done before saves and I will read it... but from RAW is can be:

1- Put the wound on a char
2- do all the saves the char would do
3- Wound is unsaved so I will try to LoS him
4- Roll LoS
5- Allocate Wound to model
6- Remove model if wound reduces model to W = 0