First Impressions of the 6th ed BRB

[eldargal]

I've been looking over my copy of the BRB, and I'm quite impresses. The change to full colour is lovely, there are lots of beautiful pictures and art throughout with some very impressive terrain pictured. The rules seem to be more logically and concisely laid out that in 5th. The hobby section is nice too, but there are some dissapointments:

Xenos each get two pages each, one of which is a full page picture. This is in contrast to four pages for Eldar including two pages of art and with an extra 145 odd pages was really quite dissapointing. The Imperium gets like a hundred pages devoted to it.:rolleyes:

The painting and modelling sections were both to sparse to be particularly useful to newbies and took up space which could have been used better in my opinion.

There was one demonstration campaign featuring IoM vs CSM, it would have been nice to see a xenos campaign as well. The whole book jsut screamed 'Imperium!' even more so than the previous editions.

A full list of weapons in the game is provided but only two are given the new skyfire rule, leaving most codices completely incapable of combatting flyers, at least until race spcific FAQs are released. This is a really odd oversight.

These are all relatively minor gripes though, I'm impressed with the book and the rules on the whole, though it is harder to judge the rules 'til we get the above mentioned FAQs.

[isotope99]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/photopost/data/571/discodon_small.jpg

[addamsfamily36]

MY EYES!! OMG MY EYES!!

erm 6th, i'll wait until i have the BRB and the FAQ's in my hand before making any solid yays or nays, but so far i'm liking half and disliking half of the confirmed rules.

[eldargal]

I'm not really reviewing the ruleset, it's more the book and formatting. The skyfire thing is odd because the rules are fine is is just only one unit is given it as well as 'flakk missiles' which are an option for some missile launchers but I can't find where it says what missile launchers can take it. If it said all it wouldn't be a problem.

[Black Hydra]

So most of the fluff section is just about what...300 pages of Imperium? And Xenos only get basically a page each?

[eldargal]

There is a very large Imperium centric timeline for most of it that i actually really quite good. There is a large section on the Imperium with Guard, SM, other institutions etc. then 2-3 pages on each xenos and a very large hobby section with modelling and painting stuff and a narrative campaign and such things. It's all quite good, just a bit dissapointing the xenos aren't given more attention.

Thugh there is a splendid page on IoM-Xenos relations which makes the Eldar come out looking rather wonderful and it mentions a lot of minor races too, lile the Uleamethic league or whatever they are called.

[Necron_Lord]

Methinks that for most armies (excluding IG) they'll need flyers to deal with enemy flyers. That's not an oversight, but a way to make ALL of their flyers sell.

[Mr Mystery]

Not so bothered or surprised by the Imperium centricity. The Galaxy is effectively the Imperium, and to be honest a xenos themed history would just be....weird.

[Archon]

Xenos each get two pages each, one of which is a full page picture. This is in contrast to four pages for Eldar including two pages of art and with an extra 145 odd pages was really quite dissapointing. The Imperium gets like a hundred pages devoted to it.:rolleyes:

The painting and modelling sections were both to sparse to be particularly useful to newbies and took up space which could have been used better in my opinion.

There was one demonstration campaign featuring IoM vs CSM, it would have been nice to see a xenos campaign as well. The whole book jsut screamed 'Imperium!' even more so than the previous editions.


Have to wait untill tomorrow 4 my book, but from all what i hear and see - yes it is a "imperium" edition from the look and feel (the promo-thingys are allways marine/imp) und like to see more xenos in the genral fluff, that comes with the big book (and this is one of the main reasons for buying it - nevertheless i know the fluff already but its still good to look at all that artwork and army pics).

Besides I play Tau and DE but mainly Chaos:cool:

[wittdooley]

So, initial impressions from me:

--The book is *******ed gorgeous. Production values are thru the roof on this one. There are tiny pieces of art on pretty much every page. Tiny vignettes for "Forging a Narrative" are everywhere, and are really nice additions that only go to support GWs mission statement with 40k: "We're creating this game for fun, narrative battles with your friends over a few beers, not for tournament players." There's even a little vignette of Adam Troke & Mat Ward playing a game and then having a beer afterwards. And I love that.

--There are a LOT more special rules that I'm going to have to learn. I mean, lots of them replace old rules, but there are enough new ones that it'll take some effort to get to know them. What this means also, is that we're certain to see the FAQs very soon for the army books, and I wouldn't be surprised if GW blows our minds by dropping digital, updated codecies very soon.

-- The Psyker Cards are nice, as is the case they come in. Some of the new Psychic powers are very situational, but very cool. Hallucination, in particular, is kinda awesome, and with the Biomancy line, I think we're going to see a lot more H2H Librarians, what with Warp Speed (+D3 I & A and Fleet) and Iron Arm (+3 S and T and Eternal Warrior). Also of note is that there is PLENTY of room in the case for more Psyker cards, so hopefull we'll see Race Specific Psyker Cards in the future. I dig em a lot.

[Anggul]

Not so bothered or surprised by the Imperium centricity. The Galaxy is effectively the Imperium, and to be honest a xenos themed history would just be....weird.

No, the Imperium is spread throughout the galaxy. That doesn't mean it owns all of that space. It's not like ancient empires on Earth where you almost always had borders which expanded outward and everything within them was yours. (I know this wasn't always the case, but it was in the majority.)

There are a massive amount of other races and factions spread throughout the galaxy all occupying parts of it (the Tau are just a fairly prominent example of this), they just aren't displayed on all of the maps of the galaxy because that would take ages to do. Despite what Ward would have you believe, the point in 40k is that the Imperium of Man is assailed on all sides, inside and out by all manner of aliens and heretics, and they fight their hardest to hold out in the sectors of the galaxy which they do own.

[Mr Mystery]

No, the Imperium is spread throughout the galaxy. That doesn't mean it owns all of that space. It's not like ancient empires on Earth where you almost always had borders which expanded outward and everything within them was yours. (I know this wasn't always the case, but it was in the majority.)

There are a massive amount of other races and factions spread throughout the galaxy all occupying parts of it (the Tau are just a fairly prominent example of this), they just aren't displayed on all of the maps of the galaxy because that would take ages to do. Despite what Ward would have you believe, the point in 40k is that the Imperium of Man is assailed on all sides, inside and out by all manner of aliens and heretics, and they fight their hardest to hold out in the sectors of the galaxy which they do own.

Yet the Imperium remains the single strongest single entity. Sure, Orks are everywhere Humies go, but they are by no means organised. The Eldar fart around in space in their city sized ships, doing their best to extend their existence. The Tau expand, but remain tiny (can't be that much bigger than Ultramar by my reckoning)

Whereas not all species will necessarily meet one another given their distribution, ALL know of mankind. Thus the majority view is of and from the Imperium. A good histoical analogy would be the British Empire at it's height. It faced a great many threats, but none truly united. History is very much Britain centric from this era, as the Empire itself is used as a kind of base line. Take a major Imperial event, and events from outside the empire are referred to it. Exactly the same with 40k.

[Black Hydra]

I don't mind an Imperium filled book, but as Eldar Gal said the Xenos get some space at least. They do deserve it after all. I'll just get my Xenos fill from the codices. I won't bother with the original version of the BRB though. Starter set for me all the way. Lots of marines for my Chaos Legions is just what I need.

By the way thanks for giving us your thoughts on 6th ed, Eldar Gal. I'm away on a trip in another country and it saddens me that I won't be there for the starting run of the book. :(

[Sure]

I like it. It's a nicely made book. The rules aren't a big departure from the last edition but I think it will make for a fun game. The new psychic powers look like they'll be fun and remember to not put the melta-guy up front. Unless they're fire dragons....I think the eldar knew about the coming wound allocation system and went with redundant units. I'm waiting for the stories to come in about dudes taking a whole units fire to the face and coming back for more.
Also, it's the end of wound allocation shenanigans (i.e biker nobz and paladins). I like it.

[eldargal]

Yes it isn't the fact that the Imperium is the dominant fluffholder in teh book, it is the fact the book increased in size 33% or thereabouts and the amount of space dedicated to xenos halved.

Also the book actually says while the IoM is the largest entity in the galaxy, it doesn't even control teh majority of habitable planets. So peopel conflating the galaxy wit hthe IoM are really taking it too far.:)

[Coyote81]

I like it. It's a nicely made book. The rules aren't a big departure from the last edition but I think it will make for a fun game. The new psychic powers look like they'll be fun and remember to not put the melta-guy up front. Unless they're fire dragons....I think the eldar knew about the coming wound allocation system and went with redundant units. I'm waiting for the stories to come in about dudes taking a whole units fire to the face and coming back for more.
Also, it's the end of wound allocation shenanigans (i.e biker nobz and paladins). I like it.

So I heard on dakkadakka that paladins are considered Inf(CH) in the appendix. If this is true, shenanigans still exist, because then each paladin is allowed to LOS a wound on a 4+ to a paladin that doesn't already have one. =( I hate paladins. And this is coming from a GK player. Ordos Xenos ftw. Deathwatch forever!

[eldargal]

50% chance of transferring a wound to an unwounded paladin is a whole lot better than 100% chance in 5th.

[Coyote81]

Very true, but I think there will be some nice shenanigans with tough characters leading squads. I can already see me bring a White scars bike captain with a 2+/3++ and PF to lead my FnP Assault Marines. You can shoot lascannons and missle launchers at him all day, he's going to make most of those saves, and if he fails he's got 3 wounds. If you manage to get him to one, he can just LOS on a 2+ to a marine. I know you can position to make him not the closest model. But unless your super fast and close, an experienced player won't leave you that option. And the Marine will be on you in two turns, minus a wound or two from their captain.

I'm just starting in on this, wait until I get my rulebook. I didn't run wound allocation shenanigans in 5th, but I became an expert on them to screw over WAAC players. I think I'll repeat that ideaology in 6th.

[Neelam]

A full list of weapons in the game is provided but only two are given the new skyfire rule, leaving most codices completely incapable of combatting flyers, at least until race spcific FAQs are released. This is a really odd oversight.



I think saying "completely incapable" is a bit harsh , deal with Flyers the same way you do in Apoc - weight of fire. They're a bit easier to take down as well without the -12" rule.

Most flyers are armor 10-12 so you only need Str 6 or 7 weapons.

Had a rifleman dreadnought that downed a stormraven + stormtalon 1 turn after another when they were using the apoc flyer rules.

[Flammenwerfer13]

I'm minially annoyed they nerfed barage weapons and made it that if you disembark period you cant assault that same turn. They really reined in you're ability to assault and when. Now my Vet Guard can't monkey stomp marines on a turn one assault anymore :'(!

[TheDirtyHippy]

I'm minially annoyed they nerfed barage weapons

Sure they might scatter more if you can see the target, but you can snipe with them, as wound allocation for barrage is calculated from the center of the blast. I'd say that's an improvement in power.

[Uncle Nutsy]

the biggest disappointment is they never bothered to change blast weapons into something that made sense. Instead of making them operate like they should, a hit gets a blast dead on and a miss will scatter.. they just went 'nah it's fine'.. so a miss means nothing happens and a hit can still miss completely.

woo. :rolleyes:

[DarkLink]

I think saying "completely incapable" is a bit harsh , deal with Flyers the same way you do in Apoc - weight of fire. They're a bit easier to take down as well without the -12" rule.

Most flyers are armor 10-12 so you only need Str 6 or 7 weapons.

Had a rifleman dreadnought that downed a stormraven + stormtalon 1 turn after another when they were using the apoc flyer rules.

Any plan that involves 'roll a ton of 6's' is a terrible one.

[Neelam]

Any plan that involves 'roll a ton of 6's' is a terrible one.

You're looking at a 33% chance of hitting per shot with psyrifle dreads, the odds aren't as bad as it seems . Just like psycannons taking down land raiders with rate of fire.

[The Madman]

I would give an opinion on the book but UPS has decided that I shouldn't get my book until Monday despite the fact I ordered it last Saturday. if I know this s*** was going to happen I would have either gone and picked one up in store or ordered one from an indie store that was selling them on Thursday. I feel completely ripped off as I spent my free time sitting at home waiting for it to arrive.

[Flammenwerfer13]

Any plan that involves 'roll a ton of 6's' is a terrible one.


Shhhh, we want to think riflemen dreadnaughts are still good, well until I put three twin linked lascannon sots with +1 to the damage table through it's face that is.

[DarkLink]

You're looking at a 33% chance of hitting per shot with psyrifle dreads, the odds aren't as bad as it seems . Just like psycannons taking down land raiders with rate of fire.

Psycannons have never been particularly good against Land Raiders, just capable. But it's still much easier to kill a Land Raider than to take down an AV12 flyer. A single str 7 rending shot has an 11% chance of glancing/penning a Land Raider. Against an AV12 flyer, it's only half that.

So, yes, it's possible. That's never been in doubt. But spending your entire army's shooting trying to just hit a zooming skimmer carries the massive opportunity cost of not shooting the rest of your opponent's army. That's a really, really poor tradeoff.

[harveydent]

i've read all but the mission, terrain and vehicle rules so far.

#1 problem i've found with this edition is that wound allocation is HORRIBLE. did you think it was difficult in 5th? a lot of people did, but the diagrams helped a bit. 6th ed wound allocation is a mess.

it's really telling when you get through the first part of wound allocation, breathe a sigh of relief, and then see the next part that begins with "Oh, if you're shooting against mixed armor, well forget all that and do it totally different."

...and then it goes on to say "Oh, if you thought you kind of understood wound allocation from shooting, try wound allocation from close combat! it's even more awesome (read: fail!)."

i mean, seriously, when two units are sandwiched together in an assault, why would i EVER want to determine which enemy model is closest? who came up with that? if there is a tie, you ask your opponent which model he wants to choose to allocate a wound to? and then you have to re-measure to see which model is closest? and then you keep repeating that process?! wtf.

let's all keep in mind that the reason they did all this was to make sure that special models could not hide in squads. for that reason, they extended the length of every game? give me a break.

[Melon-neko]

i've read all but the mission, terrain and vehicle rules so far.

#1 problem i've found with this edition is that wound allocation is HORRIBLE. did you think it was difficult in 5th? a lot of people did, but the diagrams helped a bit. 6th ed wound allocation is a mess.

it's really telling when you get through the first part of wound allocation, breathe a sigh of relief, and then see the next part that begins with "Oh, if you're shooting against mixed armor, well forget all that and do it totally different."

...and then it goes on to say "Oh, if you thought you kind of understood wound allocation from shooting, try wound allocation from close combat! it's even more awesome (read: fail!)."

i mean, seriously, when two units are sandwiched together in an assault, why would i EVER want to determine which enemy model is closest? who came up with that? if there is a tie, you ask your opponent which model he wants to choose to allocate a wound to? and then you have to re-measure to see which model is closest? and then you keep repeating that process?! wtf.

let's all keep in mind that the reason they did all this was to make sure that special models could not hide in squads. for that reason, they extended the length of every game? give me a break.

I do not like wound allocation either, but it's not horrible in practice.

However, it is not to keep IC's from hiding in units. IC's are nigh unkillable while in a unit.

[harveydent]

I do not like wound allocation either, but it's not horrible in practice.

However, it is not to keep IC's from hiding in units. IC's are nigh unkillable while in a unit.

i meant it is to keep special weapons and sergeants from hiding and not being removed on a more regular basis.

[DarkLink]

Are you kidding? Wound allocation is super easy now. The only remotely complex part is Look Out Sir. What rules are you reading?

[Uncle Nutsy]

wrong thread, sorry. :P

[Maine]

Focus Fire has me most confused, with its reference from nowhere to a large blast marker. By the way it is written, it seems to imply every weapon being fired now uses the large blast marker. Anyone else made heads or tails of this rule?

[Melon-neko]

Focus Fire has me most confused, with its reference from nowhere to a large blast marker. By the way it is written, it seems to imply every weapon being fired now uses the large blast marker. Anyone else made heads or tails of this rule?

Simply put, focus fire allows you to nominate a cover save and say that only models in the unit with that cover save or worse may be allocated units from their shooting. For example, if there are 3 orks in the open, 3 in 5+ terrain and 3 in 3+ terrain, you could focus fire at 5+ cover save. Only the orks with 5+ cover save or out in e open could be allocated wounds from this units shooting. This allows you to be more likely to kill some targets cus the saves are lower, but it will be unable to wipe out the unit regardless of wounds caused.

The blast marker sentence is the beginning of how you must place blast markers when focus firebug with them

[Lerra]

I checked, and all paladins are characters. That's kind of scary - every paladin can, when rolling 6's to hit or wound, choose which model the wound gets allocated to (Precise Strike). And between AP3 power weapons, Look Out, Sir and Glorious Intervention, Paladins are going to be harder to kill than they were in 5th.

Overall I'm quite happy with 6th, though. The ruleset seems pretty tight, and most of my complaints are rather minor. I do wish desperate allies weren't punished so much, though (desperate allies can't hold or contest/deny objectives).

[Maine]

The blast marker sentence is the beginning of how you must place blast markers when focus firebug with them

On my 5th readthrough it finally 'clicked', most of the other rules seemed to state context, so when it mentions a blast marker in the middle of a paragraph (without prefixing with something like "when placing a blast marker"), it broke pattern and confused me.

[DarkLink]

And between AP3 power weapons

No, for a couple of reasons.

For one, nothing can currently kill Paladins in CC as it is. The only unit that really can, a 10-man THSS squad, is unaffected by the change.

Just as importantly, GKs are now only AP3 as well, for everything but Daemonhammers. That means that there's a lot of stuff out there (monstrous creatures, ork nobz, other terminators) that can now live long enough to kill Paladins, whereas last edition the Paladins would simply kill them before they got to strike.

And, of course, the only good way to kill Paladins has always been to shoot them to death. Cover is weaker now, vehicles are more difficult to suppress, and stuff can snap fire all over the place, so overall shooting is deadlier. Ergo, it's just a little bit easier to shoot Paladins to death.



Look Out, Sir

Poor substitute for last edition's wound allocation. What you could do without limitation last edition, you can now only do on a 4+. Much less reliable.



Glorious Intervention


As I said, you don't kill Paladins in close combat. And frankly, a lot of the stuff that can hurt them in CC isn't susceptible to challenges anyways.

But, yes, warding staves on a character is pretty awesome.

[Mr Mystery]

No, for a couple of reasons.

For one, nothing can currently kill Paladins in CC as it is. The only unit that really can, a 10-man THSS squad, is unaffected by the change.

Just as importantly, GKs are now only AP3 as well, for everything but Daemonhammers. That means that there's a lot of stuff out there (monstrous creatures, ork nobz, other terminators) that can now live long enough to kill Paladins, whereas last edition the Paladins would simply kill them before they got to strike.

And, of course, the only good way to kill Paladins has always been to shoot them to death. Cover is weaker now, vehicles are more difficult to suppress, and stuff can snap fire all over the place, so overall shooting is deadlier. Ergo, it's just a little bit easier to shoot Paladins to death.



Poor substitute for last edition's wound allocation. What you could do without limitation last edition, you can now only do on a 4+. Much less reliable.



As I said, you don't kill Paladins in close combat. And frankly, a lot of the stuff that can hurt them in CC isn't susceptible to challenges anyways.

But, yes, warding staves on a character is pretty awesome.

Hold on. You just said nothing can kill Paladins in CC, and then listed units that can? I'm well confused.

And the bit about wound allocation and reliability? I think the word you're looking for is 'abusable'

[DarkLink]

For all intents and purposes, there really isn't anything that can take Driago, 10 paladins, and something with Rad/Psykotrooke grenades.

10 THSS Terminators with, say, a Chaplain, can do it on the charge, but I've never seen anyone take that unit, and even they have to pull the charge off. Similarly, swamping them with Genestealers with the right upgrades can do it, but it takes a lot of Genestealers and it has to be under the right circumstances.

Basically, you have to know you're going to face Paladins, then design your list to kill them in CC, and hope you get lucky.




Or you could just shoot them to death with your normal list, and play smart and do all the other stuff you can do to mitigate deathstars.

[Mr Mystery]

For all intents and purposes, there really isn't anything that can take Driago, 10 paladins, and something with Rad/Psykotrooke grenades.

10 THSS Terminators with, say, a Chaplain, can do it on the charge, but I've never seen anyone take that unit, and even they have to pull the charge off. Similarly, swamping them with Genestealers with the right upgrades can do it, but it takes a lot of Genestealers and it has to be under the right circumstances.

Basically, you have to know you're going to face Paladins, then design your list to kill them in CC, and hope you get lucky.




Or you could just shoot them to death with your normal list, and play smart and do all the other stuff you can do to mitigate deathstars.

And how many points are Draigo and chums?

[DarkLink]

A lot. Why? Driagowing's been around for a year or so now. There have been a lot of threads on how to deal with them in 5th ed already.

[Mr Mystery]

Was just trying to make a point.

It's like in Fantasy. People used to complain about how hard my Dark Elf Dragon lord was. Well. Yes. And so he bloody well should be when he's taking up a quarter of my army....

Sure, Draigo and Chums can do horrible things, but it's mostly limited to HTH, and it's mere presence reduces dramatically the number of targets I have to worry about during the game.