Are Nids Doomed? (tm)

[Soups]

So, most of the internet has been seeing alot of the photos floating around the interwebs, and I have personally seen the new rulebook in person. I was giddy about new rules about wound allocation and all the rest, but then I dug deeper, looking t how Monsterous creatures work in game.

1. The new fearless. This is the biggest, and most troublesome topic for me. Models who are fearless do not test for pinning and pass all morale checks. Units can also NEVER VOLUNTARILY GO TO GROUND. So, if you put your army in synapse range, you open up your infantry to just being one shot off the board. This coupled with new rules for cover has me feelling very sad.

2. Fear...or not. Monsterous creatures have the carbon copy fear from Fantasy. And They Shall Know No Fear is a USR (or at least a special rule) put into the rule book. It function like it does now, with the added benefit of BEING IMMUNE TO FEAR. This tickles me pink, knowing that I can only do anything important to half the armies out there, and only if they are not fearless to boot. It's about as useful as acute senses, and adds nothing points wise to them, so it's not like I'm actually losing out on anything like the Fearless USR.

3. GRENADES. Anything you can sticky to a vehicle can be stickied to a big baddie MC. Yup, even melta bombs. Str 8 AP 1. I can't even get a Feel No Pain from these guys. Veteran squads, 130 points to kill anything in the game (assume meltaguns and bombs). I wish every army had the ability to blank a 400 point swarmlord or tyrant lord unit from existence. for a measly 130 points.

So, unless one intends to do a flying circus of flyrants and harpys, It's not looking too good, is it?

[Kawauso]

What worries me the most really is the ability of the army to deal with flyers.
Particularly my army, since it has no Tyranid 'guns' in it, and that's something I'm loathe to change.

The bit about fearless and grenades doesn't really worry me so much, to be honest. Going to ground was rarely ever something I did with my gribblies any way, and MCs never could.

But until I have rulebook in hand and games under belt, I'll reserve final judgment.

[gendoikari87]

Nids are the tau of 6th, I'm sorry, I really am, but I didn't make it that way.

[DrWobbles]

Grenades really shouldn't scare you, fear will be good for those monstrous creatures that get stuck in cc with big blobs, going to ground has never been a factor for the bugs because they're normally running as fast as they can towards the enemy.
I think sixth will be a boon for nids. MCs(and flying mcs) got buffed with hammer of wrath, smash, and vector strike. your flyrants can zoom across the board and create havoc quickly. Venom cannons may just be worth it knocking out hull points.
But the biggest buff i see is in the psyker department. Hive tyrants, tervigons, zoanthropes, AND broodlords can generate the new powers from the rule book.

Im not a tyranid player but my brother is, im looking at nids with a lot more respect now.

[daboarder]

Rumour has it that units that are fearless or have ATSKNF are immune to "fear" so that "benefit" is largely useless as the MC was probably going to butcher the unit anyway.

[DrWobbles]

Rumour has it that units that are fearless or have ATSKNF are immune to "fear" so that "benefit" is largely useless as the MC was probably going to butcher the unit anyway.

i got that. in the first post. I beliieve fear was designed for MCs to clear through big blobs more quickly. Units with ATSKNF or fearless will be smaller units and more manageable for the big boys.

[daboarder]

i got that. in the first post. I beliieve fear was designed for MCs to clear through big blobs more quickly. Units with ATSKNF or fearless will be smaller units and more manageable for the big boys.

Thing is the 3 hoard armies are Orks, Nids, and IG all of which have ways of being fearless (or practically so Ld10 re-roll) therefore this rule won't work on them either, about the only list it really does anything too is eldar or tau and your MC was going to go through those units anyway.

take into account that over half the armies are marines and this rule.....is an extreme outlier at best

[Wolfshade]

It also seems to make more sense to me that fearless units can't go to ground, the moves to get them auto passing tests is akin to 2nd ed fearless.
To me fearless implies they are either so pumped up theat they don't listen to reason or so convinced in their own superiortiy that they wo'n't fear the oppostion.
Otherwise Fearless and Stubborn are too similiar

[eldargal]

If 6th is anything like 8th we will see new 6th ed FAQs for each race appear on hte website in the next week or so, so don't go making judgements 'til then. There have been plenty of things rendered useless in other armies too:

Only hydra autocannons and flakk missiles have been granted skyfire, so all other armies have no recourse to dealing with flyers.
DE flickerfields are worthless, Eldar holofields are worthless, witchblades are nerfed, webway portals are basically useless, overwatch hits expensive S3 DE assault troops worse than the cheap and abundant tyranids etc. etc.

But we still can't make a final judgement until we get the FAQs becaue some of these things may be fixed.

[UltramarineFan]

I believe they got rid of Fearless saves so that's good?

[Mr Mystery]

Why the stress! Meltabombs got you down? Screen with Hormies or Termies. Lord know they're cheap enough.

[jonsgot]

I think Nids are better off in 6th, but still not balanced. The Nid armies that stood a good chance in 5th won't fair well, but hoards stand a better chance given the auto wound on loss of close combat for fearless units has disappeared. The flying MC is also in a batter place. I'm not clear if my harpies and gargoyles will be able to keep up though. Nids have finally got some ranged weapons that cost less than 200 points in the form of a bastion with Icarus lascannon :) (despite the ribbing I will get for taking it)

I am peeved Nids can't allie with Guard. What's happened to the Geanstealer cults?

I think crud went a bit mad on the pricing of M/Cs (fex being the worst) but hopefully the poor performance of the last Nid codex in 5th will be due to the fact it was written and priced for 6th. Given Cruds record on codex's I'm not too optimistic but the FAQs may bring the balance it needs.

I did love the WD nid battle report with a Swarm Lord against a space wolves army that couldn't hope to kill it. Like that would trick us all into thinking Nids stood a chance again.:rolleyes:

Still I won't know I'm going to loose before I roll the 1st dice, for the next few games at least. That is all I really want to continue. :D

[Kawauso]

Only hydra autocannons and flakk missiles have been granted skyfire, so all other armies have no recourse to dealing with flyers.


Hydra autocannons get it? Yikes...do they ignore the 5+ cover save flyers get for 'zooming', as well? That's pretty damn good...

I'm really hoping there's a FAQ soon to spread Skyfire around a bit more. It would make sense to me if TL-autocannons for SM dreads got it, as well as the skyhammer missiles for Stormtalons, the Tau Skyray, the Necron Annihilation Barge, something-or-other for D/Eldar...



Would anyone be able to confirm that the Vector Strike thing that flying MCs get is any good against flyers? What're their odds of hitting? And do they get any benefit for armour penetration, or is it just S+D6? As it stands, flyrants are really the only option for flyers that my 'nids are going to have...

Oh, and I haven't seen anything about assaulting flyers with jump infantry anywhere - is it possible for them?

[eldargal]

I don't know if hydra autocannons ignore cover, possibly not. It would have to be in their special rules and I don't have my brothrs IG codex handy. It makes sense for the hydra to have the rule, it is AA afterall.

[Kawauso]

Oh, of course it makes sense for them to have it.

It's just that they're relatively inexpensive, and the snapfire/cover save thing seems to be a really important part of flyers' survivability, what with only 2 hull points and all that, as well as being on flying stems.

Hydras have a rule that lets them ignore the cover save that flat-out/turbo-boosting units get, and I have the sinking suspicion it's going to ignore the 'zoom mode' cover save as well...which makes them sound super dangerous.

[Black Hydra]

I just deepstrike right next to Hydras with my Doomscythes and unleash all their weaponry. Or just use buildings to give them decent cover saves. Sure not everyone can do that and I might lose all my Scythes, but Hydras are dangerous against my Warriors who are scoring (yes I use Immortals as well) so losing the scythes while taking out a bunch of tanks is a good trade off.

I'll just scratch build stuff that can have the skyfire rule and make Pylons that either make psykers' Ld -2 or make them reroll successful Ld tests for psychic attacks.

I suggest Nid players make spore tower akin to the Zergs' defense towers. We will not bow down to the Imperium and use their stuff! :)

[the jeske]

no ally is bad . no FLAK is bad too.

big hit for hth nids is fleet change , it effectivly makes them slower . We still dont have frags so terrain screws nids hard [even without those "special" ones blowing up in their face] .

stuff that technicly gets buffed still dies very easily [flying swarm , flying warriors , single flying tyrant without guard etc] .

Armies will have to deal with more terminators , oddly enough those weapons that can kill them are good against MC too. the fact that units which cant hurt you can just run away hurts too [back in the days you could charge . kill some , stay safe for opponent shoting , finish off on their hth phase move/charge again] .
not being able to charge after going out of reservs ? huge debuff for some units .

+ there is tons of cosmetic stuff , like witch canceling your power , armies that didnt have psychic protection suddenly have SW RP [tau ,IG] or worse farseers with runes. In general ally combinations can screw us over hard and we cant do a thing about it . plasma double taping out of snap firing units with normal BS bad too .


In general what nids will be depands on the FAQ. how will our natural weapons work , what is going to be our AP2 anti termi weapon [I hope it wont be just MC that would suck] . If we get good stuff , it will be better then 5th , if not well then nids are kind of a used to being in the place they will end up in 6th.

[eldargal]

The change to fleet makes them on average 1-2 inches slower, it isn't that bad. The chance of getting plasma rapid firing with normal BS on a snap fire is fairly remote too. You need a spyker with access to divination or whichever it is and then they need to roll a D6 and get the right result and then they need to be near the unnit with the plasma and cast it upon them prior to your assault. It's not like it is wargear.

[Anggul]

Meh, we weren't that great in the first place, I'm still going to enjoy playing Tyranids. They were my first and greatest love... I mean... army.

[Soups]

Hydra autocannons get it? Yikes...do they ignore the 5+ cover save flyers get for 'zooming', as well? That's pretty damn good...

I'm really hoping there's a FAQ soon to spread Skyfire around a bit more. It would make sense to me if TL-autocannons for SM dreads got it, as well as the skyhammer missiles for Stormtalons, the Tau Skyray, the Necron Annihilation Barge, something-or-other for D/Eldar...



Would anyone be able to confirm that the Vector Strike thing that flying MCs get is any good against flyers? What're their odds of hitting? And do they get any benefit for armour penetration, or is it just S+D6? As it stands, flyrants are really the only option for flyers that my 'nids are going to have...

Oh, and I haven't seen anything about assaulting flyers with jump infantry anywhere - is it possible for them?

Vector strike allows you a d3+1 hits on ONE unit you pass over, at base strength. So dive bombing flyers with your flyer. Unless they FAQ THAT, it should be a way for nids to deal with flyers. You can never engage vehicle flyers, but if you score a wound against a MC flyer, roll a d6. on a 1 or 2 it falls to the ground, and can be assaulted. It's a visible trade off, since flying vehicles just die, I suppose...even though vehicles still have 2 hull points and a damage chart. Everything that is a "flyer" has a 5+.

[commissar camenzuli]

yes and no. yes because now enemys can snapfire in 6th when you assault, and no because you dont have to worry abut hull points

[Ghoulio]

I mentioned this in the rumors thread but I think one of the biggest issues with Nids this edition will be how wound allocation works if you have to remove models in shooting from Front to Back. If this IS the case then every time someone fires at Hormagaunts you will lose 2+" a turn which would delay your charge by a turn after a few rounds of shooting.

Other things is that rumors are you can't assault on the turn you enter in from reserve, which for my play style hurts greatly. I am guessing Ymgarls aren't effected by this as they have a special rule for their deployment and could be the exception to the rule (*fingers crossed*).

The change to preferred enemy is another one that hurts this army as its changed to re-roll 1s to hit (scything talons...so useless) and to wound (could be rendered useless by toxin sacs very easily). I mean, if you use Old Adversary to beef up your Tyranno-suck..er..Fex it would take SIX TURNS OF SHOOTING to actually get one additional hit with shooting. That blows lol.

Having to deal with overwatch in addition to assaulting through cover (assuming you still strike at initiative 1 without grenades) and the new wound allocation system is going to hurt that phase even more.

Also as others have mentioned no apparent anti air shooting at all. Maybe Hive Guard will turn into an even MORE must have unit in the game?

No Allies

All fortifications are Imperial (although i am sure you could convert your own and use their rules, still silly)

The reduction of cover and FNP will also mean you will lose your stuff way faster as well as the fact that fearless models cant go to ground (so anything in synapse...ie Termagants holding an objective).

The only really big buffs I see are as follows:

- Flying MCs (duh)
- Poison being 4+ to wound or your str, which ever is better still getting the re-roll to wound if str equal to, or better
- Broodlords swapping out their two crap powers for hopefully two decent ones (which they will need since you cant assault out of infiltrate)
- Beasts are supposed to ignore the effects of assaulting into cover (ie strike at normal initiative)
- From what I hear no more fearless wounds which is great. Means multi assaulting with MCs and little gribblies will be back as a viable tactic which is great.

Keep in mind everything here is just based on the rumors I have read, not me seeing the actual book or an FAQ so it could change greatly by tomorrow lol.

[the jeske]

All fortifications are Imperial (although i am sure you could convert your own and use their rules, still silly)
and behold the FAQ tells us that nids cant use the weapons on fortifications . So nids are the only army without anti flyer weapons .


they give small nerf to whipes , now if your opponent has anyform of buff to I you roll off which one works last.

only the swarmy is psyker lvl 2 . with only 1 roll on the table the non nid psychic powers are too random to pick up.

the brood lords got buffed to work better in challanges , the venoms are buffed against armies with open toped stuff and horror is uber fear unless someone is fearless.

All in all . the problems I see . No flak , no ally , hurt by wound allocation almost as bad as orks are .

[Melon-neko]

and behold the FAQ tells us that nids cant use the weapons on fortifications . So nids are the only army without anti flyer weapons .


they give small nerf to whipes , now if your opponent has anyform of buff to I you roll off which one works last.

only the swarmy is psyker lvl 2 . with only 1 roll on the table the non nid psychic powers are too random to pick up.

the brood lords got buffed to work better in challanges , the venoms are buffed against armies with open toped stuff and horror is uber fear unless someone is fearless.

All in all . the problems I see . No flak , no ally , hurt by wound allocation almost as bad as orks are .

Nids can't manually fire emplaced weapons but they can still use the auto fire function and Icarus weapons still have interceptor to shoot down flyers entering play from reserves

[eldargal]

Also Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks and Grey Knights all lack skyfire in their codex entries. Eldar can get Nightwing from FW but then don't 'nids have a FW AA kit too?

[Kawauso]

What do Necrons have with Skyfire? Or Tau?

[eldargal]

Tau don't have any either I believe, I'm not sure about Necrons. As far as I recall only IG currently get skyfire, possibly SM. Flakk missiles aregiven under the missile launcher profile in the appendix but it still isn't FAQed as saying they can take that type of ammunition.

[Kawauso]

And I'd assume that's only the generic Imperial 'missile launchers'...i.e. Eldar Missile Launchers, Tau Missile Pods/Smart Missiles etc. can't fire flakks...

Blah.
This is the only thing about 6th that has me unhappy - but it has me really unhappy.

And did missile launchers -really- need to become that much more appealing for Devastators/Long Fangs and the like?

[Melon-neko]

And I'd assume that's only the generic Imperial 'missile launchers'...i.e. Eldar Missile Launchers, Tau Missile Pods/Smart Missiles etc. can't fire flakks...

Blah.
This is the only thing about 6th that has me unhappy - but it has me really unhappy.

And did missile launchers -really- need to become that much more appealing for Devastators/Long Fangs and the like?

On page 57 it says that all missle launchers come with frag n krak and that flaky is an upgrade. Ie, all missle launchers do not automatically come with flaky missles now.

Any flyer can shoot down a flyer, but fortications and hydras are really the only dedicated AA weapons, hydras being best since they ignore jink also

[Kawauso]

On page 57 it says that all missle launchers come with frag n krak and that flaky is an upgrade. Ie, all missle launchers do not automatically come with flaky missles now.

Any flyer can shoot down a flyer, but fortications and hydras are really the only dedicated AA weapons, hydras being best since they ignore jink also

That....is super ****ty.

So currently my Necrons, Space Wolves, Space Marines and Tyranids - all of which are sizable armies of 3000+ points - have no defence against flyers. :( Boo.

[the jeske]

Also Dark Eldar, Eldar, Orks and Grey Knights all lack skyfire in their codex entries. Eldar can get Nightwing from FW but then don't 'nids have a FW AA kit too?

only all those armies can ally IG and get hydras that are twin linked and ignore flyer cover at the same time. I see this as a huge difference.



Nids can't manually fire emplaced weapons but they can still use the auto fire function and Icarus weapons still have interceptor to shoot down flyers entering play from reserves
So they have 1 pice of anti tank [huge model hard to carry for any tournament] and opponents can take it over.
Awesome. no ally screws nids over like no thing before , save maybe for that short lived 4th ed faq saying synaps is no ID only against weapons that dont go over double T.

[gcsmith]

Nids don't need allies, anyone saying otherwise needs to get off their pitty potty and learn to play. You have weight of fire on your side. Also, ever heard of playing the objective... Flyers are not the be all and end all.

[Ghoulio]

Nids don't need allies, anyone saying otherwise needs to get off their pitty potty and learn to play. You have weight of fire on your side. Also, ever heard of playing the objective... Flyers are not the be all and end all.

I dont really think that is the point though, is it? I mean, I for one have always wanted to do a Genestealer Cult army and when I heard allies were in it was the number one thing I was hoping for. I would love to see a big unit of Purestrain stealers being led by a broodlord on the field and a converted up Tyranid Prime as a Primarch. Convert up those Primaris Psykers for magus and really "cult everything out". Tonnes of potential for a really neat and different looking army. Looks like it isnt going to happen now.

Also, what do you mean by "weight of fire"? Tyranids are one of the worst shooting armies in the game lol. We do have a few decent units like Devil Gants, and such. Just hurts having almost all our guns having a max range of 24", all between str 4-6 and all AP between "-" and 5. I mean, after reading through things I am fine not playing Nids as I also own almost 4k of DE, about 2.5k of Eldar and 1.5k of Necrons. I played that army for an entire edition, I guess this is the shove I need to start something new lol.

[Kawauso]

Nids don't need allies, anyone saying otherwise needs to get off their pitty potty and learn to play. You have weight of fire on your side. Also, ever heard of playing the objective... Flyers are not the be all and end all.

I don't want my Nids to have allies.

I want them to actually be able to reliably do something about flyers.

Every army has an answer to every unit type. Every army has some way or other to crack tanks. Some are better or worse at it - that's fine. Every army should have some way to drop flyers.

2 models that can perform Vector Strikes at unmodified S5 or S6 are not enough.

And no, I don't really think snapshots count as an effective means of downing aircraft.

[Soups]

So...

I CAN'T assault from outflank, or reserves
I CAN'T use the aegis gunline
I CAN'T have allies
I CAN'T get skyfire

So, what can I do?

I can walk across the board like an idiot, when shooting gets better.
I can take nothing but gargoyles
I can do nidzilla or the Flying Circus

weeeee...