WYSIWYG and 6th.

[Dalleron]

So since the cat is out of the bag for all intents and purposes, I've got to wondering.

Has wysiwyg going to be more important? Or does the ruleset now accomodate this. For example, you've a squad of Grey hunters, who have Bolter, BP and CCW. As you've got modelling options to build them, does a model with a chainsword actually have one, and the ones you've built without a chainsword for whatever reason, just have a CCW? Same attacks I'm thinking, but different rules for different models withing a squad.

[daboarder]

If an opponent ever tries to tell me that my VV with power weapons now have to use the ungodly AXE rules just because I modelled them with axes years ago then I'll either pack up or punch them depending on the mood I'm in.

[Chris Copeland]

Axes can be power weapons. Any weapon could be a power weapon.

[daboarder]

no power axes are now s+1 I1 AP2, whereas swords are S as user, I as user AP3......no real reason to ever take an axe, if you want more strength and AP take a PF, what you loose in attacks you make up in wounding.

[eldargal]

I have to say I do think the changes to power weapons are idiotic. You want a unit to have a special form of power weapon that has a drawback, give them a wargear option. Errata the codex if you have to. But now we have generic power weapons and a bunch of extra power weapons, and it is going to get confusing.

For example some of my Dire Avenger exarchs have 'power weapons' as per the codex, but the PW in the kit is a a spear. Power spears apparently have seperate rules. But I didn't buy a 'power spear' I bought a 'power weapon'. So do I have a power spear or not? If not do I have to remodel it to be consistent with WYSIWYG?:rolleyes:

[daboarder]

word is they are going to be all the same points and then your just stuck with whatever it's modelled as.

[jonsgot]

If an opponent ever tries to tell me that my VV with power weapons now have to use the ungodly AXE rules just because I modelled them with axes years ago then I'll either pack up or punch them depending on the mood I'm in.

Rumble!:D

[Wolfshade]

I have to agree with daboarder, I have modelled all of my sargeants with power axes as they try to emulate Dante, well my assault marines anyway.
Fortunately, within my group we are quite comfortable not doing strict wysisyg, but for pick up games it might be a problem.

[Captainparty]

I have to say I do think the changes to power weapons are idiotic. You want a unit to have a special form of power weapon that has a drawback, give them a wargear option. Errata the codex if you have to. But now we have generic power weapons and a bunch of extra power weapons, and it is going to get confusing.

For example some of my Dire Avenger exarchs have 'power weapons' as per the codex, but the PW in the kit is a a spear. Power spears apparently have seperate rules. But I didn't buy a 'power spear' I bought a 'power weapon'. So do I have a power spear or not? If not do I have to remodel it to be consistent with WYSIWYG?:rolleyes:

That model now has a Power Spear as per the rules, there is no generic power weapon now, you get what the model has.

These changes happen every edition, when 3rd was out, I had to change all of my Death Company.

I think for the first few months, not changing your models to reflect what they have is ok, its a new game and who has the time? But in tournaments, it's WYSIWYG, Power Axes are Power Axes.

[Mr.Pickelz]

I think, in Eldargal's case, This will be apart of a big Errata that will pretty much add 4 to 5 pages to that codex, and indeed GW/FW really needs to go through their stuff and re-look at the those model-to-rules inconsistencies.I don't see how this will be a problem, as long as your clear with your opponent about what wargear is being used. Tournaments are another story though...:confused:

[Wolfshade]

I do welcome back these different options. I missed them when they became lost in 3rd. It adds a level of complexity that the streamlined rules lacked, but shouldn't result in too much additional time. I think if you look at the GKs with all their different Nemisis weapons that this was on the cards, similiarly with mastery levels. I only hope that they rescult the molds to include these different variety of options

[Captainparty]

I think, in Eldargal's case, This will be apart of a big Errata that will pretty much add 4 to 5 pages to that codex, and indeed GW/FW really needs to go through their stuff and re-look at the those model-to-rules inconsistencies.I don't see how this will be a problem, as long as your clear with your opponent about what wargear is being used. Tournaments are another story though...:confused:

Nope, it's in the big rule book, there are different types of weapons with different stats, your model has which ever one they're holding but for the same points cost. No need to FAQ it, if the Exarch has a spear on the model, then it has a Power Spear with the rules that are in the rule book. If she wanted it to have a Power Sword, she'd have to model a Power Sword.

[gcsmith]

Nope, it's in the big rule book, there are different types of weapons with different stats, your model has which ever one they're holding but for the same points cost. No need to FAQ it, if the Exarch has a spear on the model, then it has a Power Spear with the rules that are in the rule book. If she wanted it to have a Power Sword, she'd have to model a Power Sword.

The point was, their might be some FAQ, simply because of what the models are supplied with. I mean I can not see anyone taking Axes on Models any more, I can imagine people modelling dantes axe as a sword.

Also does anyone else find it strange that Rending is AP 2. So your telling me some random genestealers claw, is sharper than a sharp sword which has an energy field around it?

[Xenith]

The point was, their might be some FAQ, simply because of what the models are supplied with

You don't need an FAQ to see what weapon a model is holding. If it's a sword, you use the sword rules. If it's an axe, you use the axe rules.

I think the axe is a massive shame if it is I1. I-1 I could handle, but +1S for I1? You might as well take a power fist.

[StraightSilver]

I don't think it's a case of people not being aware of the rule, just more the fact that it's a real pain.

Also some models (particularly the Eldar range) only come with axes or spears, so it involves a bit of conversion work.

Also the Blood Angels sprues have a mix of axes and swords that most people have used for a bit of variety, but now totally change the dynamics of that particular unit.

Although I'm glad a lot of Space Wolves will now be striking after me in CC! :)

I like that there are more inclusive rules, but as a modeler and painter I don't want to have to go back and rip off or replace all those axes, as if I want to strike at I1 I'll spend the extra points on a Power Fist of Thunder Hammer.

[DrLove42]

People are not allowed to complain unles they're an eldar player.

Apparantly Singing Spears and Witchblades have gone from S9 to S3, always wound on 2+ and AP6....

[Wolfshade]

Eldar were over powered anyway, it's about time they got nerfed

[Toaster36]

Reminds me of red paint.... Could be worse.

[juliusb]

Nope, it's in the big rule book, there are different types of weapons with different stats, your model has which ever one they're holding but for the same points cost. No need to FAQ it, if the Exarch has a spear on the model, then it has a Power Spear with the rules that are in the rule book. If she wanted it to have a Power Sword, she'd have to model a Power Sword.

There is no "Power Spear" option for her character, only "Power Weapon". So she can model the Power Weapon however she wants and it's still a Power Weapon.

[gcsmith]

There is no "Power Spear" option for her character, only "Power Weapon". So she can model the Power Weapon however she wants and it's still a Power Weapon.

There is no power weapon in the rule book, rather types of power weapons.

[Gir]

does a model with a chainsword actually have one, and the ones you've built without a chainsword for whatever reason, just have a CCW? Same attacks I'm thinking, but different rules for different models withing a squad.

Sure. It literally makes no difference unless it's a power weapon anyway.

[magickbk]

The same exact thing happened when the game transitioned from 2nd to 3rd edition. Most units could equip models with a wide variety of weapons, which were then scaled back. That is when the game went originally from having different rules for power axes, swords, etc, to calling them all power weapons, and when Space Marines couldn't all run around with laspistols, hand flamers, and plasma pistols (and Eldar switched from las weapons to Shuriken). The solution was that WYSIWYG wasn't enforced all that much, and you had a discussion with your opponent before the game about what your equipment was. Tournaments required everyone to remodel their units after about the first year. The 3rd edition rulebook actually had a paragraph about this in the first section.

I can see something similar happening now. Maybe a good way for GW to sell some weapons bitz packs and sprues! (grumble...)

[Defenestratus]

I don't have an issue with the power weapon rules - EXCEPT the stupid axe.

I don't know why they made it I1.

[gendoikari87]

wait a tick, so if I model my guard sergeants with a power axe they get +1 str and still strike at the same time?

[DrLove42]

I guess axe is a cheaper alternative to a fist.

Want a stronger hit and the lower AP, but don't want to spend X points on a fist? spend Y (much cheaper) and get an axe.

[gendoikari87]

what's up with the lance rules, someone said they were ap 3 str +1, that makes them an all round better option doesn't it? at least over swords with no cost difference.

[eldargal]

I hate weapon rules that are made by people who have never actually used said weapon. A giant hammer may be a tad unwieldy, a single handed axe really isn't. Also th power spear rules are stupid, extra something on the charge for a spear which is a defensive weapon and utter rubbish at offence.:rolleyes:

On the brightside, Lord Fuegan, the Burning Lance, unniversally acknowledged as one of the most OP characters in the entire history of ever, will be striking at I1 with his terrrific power axe of leetness.

I don't have an issue with the power weapon rules - EXCEPT the stupid axe.

I don't know why they made it I1.

[DrLove42]

Oh crist I never even thought about Fuegan....the only Phoenix Lord i've ever used....

Well back to the army case for him....now that strikes like a MC doesn't count for anything, considering hes already AP2 with an axe, and MC's don't get 2D6 anymore....

[magickbk]

Time was the Power Axe was S5, -2 armor save modifier, and could be used two-handed at S6, -3, IIRC. It was assumed the loss of additional attack for a second weapon was an even trade for the extra strength. Seems to me that something similar would still work now. It seems as if all the 6th rumors everything either makes you I1 or requires 6s to hit.

[gendoikari87]

people might be making too big a deal out of the axe thing. Consider this. Power swords are AP 3 now, and it seems like everyone and their brother can take terminators as troops now. Just sayin'.

also eldargal what are the rules for the spear you're talking about now?

[eldargal]

Someone on Warseer posted a list of power weapon types and power spear had +1S on the charge or something like that. Makes no sense, spears are defensive.

Also, I was wrong re: Fuegan, his axe isn't described as a power weapon, it is named the Fire Axe, grants +1S and allows him to attack like a monstrous creature. Some relief.:)

[gendoikari87]

Someone on Warseer posted a list of power weapon types and power spear had +1S on the charge or something like that. Makes no sense, spears are defensive.

Also, I was wrong re: Fuegan, his axe isn't described as a power weapon, it is named the Fire Axe, grants +1S and allows him to attack like a monstrous creature. Some relief.:)

srsly? I don't think anyone at GW has ever really used any of these weapons because at most axes would only drop you down to I3 and WTF is up with spears being +1 str on the charge? do they think everyone is on horseback? I mean hell even in WFB they got spears right.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Wow... I was happy until now :L

[heretic marine]

no power axes are now s+1 I1 AP2, whereas swords are S as user, I as user AP3......no real reason to ever take an axe, if you want more strength and AP take a PF, what you loose in attacks you make up in wounding.

CRAP!!! I have a custom made death cult Assassin that has 2 AXEs:mad:

I do medieval reenactments, and yes an Axe does slow me down a little BUT I1 really? The weapon I use the most is a spear and if you charge you are screwing yourself, as they can easily pass the head of the spear and hit you with the sword or Axe. the spear should be IF Assaulted that model gains +1 I

[isotope99]

my view on this is as long as you do the same thing for all power weapons, that's enough to get round the WYSIWYG. So if you say at the beginning "all power weapons are power swords" that should be OK but using one power axe as an axe and one as a sword is not. Not a rule but a sensible compromise IMHO.

[Anggul]

Personally I'd like to just keep power weapons as they are. Adding all of these others is pointless, and also the rules make no sense. Since when were axes extremely slow? Since when did shortening the blade of your power weapon and lengthening the handle make any difference to how well the power field cuts through armour? It's all ridiculous and pointless, not to mention making units like Incubi, Sanguinary Guard, Howling Banshees etc. scared crapless of anything in Terminator armour, as they're essentially reduced to below-average basic troops against them. When on earth did Terminators need making nigh-invulnerable to most of their close combat counters?

Also, everyone is now paying more points (usually 10 or 15) for something which is now worse. Yes everyone is doing it, but it's still more points. Oh, and Witchblades got nerfed when they weren't that great in the first place, when they're meant to be force weapons but better. Hopefully the next Eldar codex will change that... hopefully.

[fuzzbuket]

wait if axes are I1 s+1 what are the point of them?! it seems like they are just really weak hammers :L

I-1 and S+2 is fine but I1?! really, so a space wolf with power axe is SLOWER than a guardsman ?

[Black Hydra]

wait if axes are I1 s+1 what are the point of them?! it seems like they are just really weak hammers :L

I-1 and S+2 is fine but I1?! really, so a space wolf with power axe is SLOWER than a guardsman ?

Because models with axes can still wield pistols as they're one handed. This still allows SW models to have 2 attacks base.

I agree on the speed of the ax though. And the spear just reaches the limits of silly. It should be that anyone with a spear has counter attack or always goes at the same time despite initiative. Something a bit more innovative.

[bfmusashi]

The point was, their might be some FAQ, simply because of what the models are supplied with. I mean I can not see anyone taking Axes on Models any more, I can imagine people modelling dantes axe as a sword.

Also does anyone else find it strange that Rending is AP 2. So your telling me some random genestealers claw, is sharper than a sharp sword which has an energy field around it?

Genestealers need to get to the soft chewy center of the terminator armour. Also, they're just that awesome.

[gcsmith]

Genestealers need to get to the soft chewy center of the terminator armour. Also, they're just that awesome.

They need to, but Terminator armour can withstand a Titan standing on it, according to BL and GW. Therefore it would easily survive a genestealer, its not like their wearing the biosuits from Prometheus

[Crae]

The axe is quit good in several points:
1: lower points cost
2:AP2 and +1str (so kills terminators)
3:AP2 = +1 on the Damage chart
4: you still get +1 attack for offhand weapon
so all in all NOT that bad

The lance/spear thing is weirder in my book, lance=fine, spear should be increased ini on getting charged.

Wonder how they are going to change the Lacer lances, Glaive encarmine, Relic blades(half are axes half are swords), frost blades (same) and
dantes Axe mortalis (hes ini 6...might hurt a bit :) )

The rules are as follows

Originally Posted by krittoris
POWER WEAPONS

If a power weapon just says power weapon and has no addtional rules, use the following:

maces, and blunt weapons count as power maul
spears, lances count as power lance
swords count as power swords
axes and halberds count as power axes

power sword - S user, ap 3, melee
power axe - S+1, AP 2 melee, unwieldly
power lance - S+1/user AP3/4, melee
power maul - S+2, AP4, melee

power lance has 2 profiles, first being on the charge second being i normal combat.

[Archon]

Chaos Terminators are mostly outfitted with axes and maces ... :( so have an "unwieldy" weapon but DS2 and a S6/AP4 mace - hurray - that means their benefit from being equipped with "power weapons" is mostley gone. They lost the ini-boni (axe) or the pentration power (mace) vs. powerarmour. But hey that will result in: Avoid other terminators in CC but charge vehicles some more (mace is capable to glance P12 an therefore steal a hull point of a cybot.

Assuming there no further changes by FAQ I will stay with wysiwyg and then see what the new chaos dex will have to say.



I think the axe is a massive shame if it is I1. I-1 I could handle, but +1S for I1? You might as well take a power fist.

Yup - there are only the point-costs wich makes the difference. A bit missruled i think - i don´t see either the strenght boni or the ini-nerv for the axe. But the +1 (S) / -1 (I) sound more okay. Sad but AP2;)


Someone on Warseer posted a list of power weapon types and power spear had +1S on the charge or something like that. Makes no sense, spears are defensive.

I think its a power-lance and it covers the rough riders of the IG. But i may by wrong.

[Anggul]

They need to, but Terminator armour can withstand a Titan standing on it, according to BL and GW. Therefore it would easily survive a genestealer, its not like their wearing the biosuits from Prometheus

No. Genestealers have always gone through Terminator armour, ever since they were invented in Space Hulk. Black Library is very, very rarely a good source for fluff, especially where Space Marines are concerned.

[evil_red_ork]

The one thing I haven't heard anyone talk about is, when has anyoneseen a power maul, axe or spear as a wargear option in any codex. If someone triesto tell me my chaos termies are equipped with those just because they don't look like swords,im gonna show them my codex wargear entries and tell them I don't have the option of equipping my termies or nwhatever with power axes or power mauls.

[gcsmith]

No. Genestealers have always gone through Terminator armour, ever since they were invented in Space Hulk. Black Library is very, very rarely a good source for fluff, especially where Space Marines are concerned.

Yes but that was before Space Marines could do ship combat, terminators were said to be the ones designed for that. Since then it has changed to be literally mini dreadnaughts. And then power weapons could tear through termi armour.

Obv if power fields changed, so can Genestealers. At least it seems snipers have lost rending.

[Kawauso]

The one thing I haven't heard anyone talk about is, when has anyoneseen a power maul, axe or spear as a wargear option in any codex. If someone triesto tell me my chaos termies are equipped with those just because they don't look like swords,im gonna show them my codex wargear entries and tell them I don't have the option of equipping my termies or nwhatever with power axes or power mauls.

The gist of it, from all the posts I've seen, is that all the generic 'power weapon' entries in the codices remain as they are. They cost the same. Which -type- of power weapon they are is determined by what the model has.

So by purchasing a power weapon for a marine sergeant, you get the choice of making that PW a sword, axe, spear or maul.

Also, seeing as this is a potential pain in the *** (i.e. for Chaos Terminators, as has been said), I don't think anyone would have any problems with you saying "this squad is armed with power swords", for example.

[ragnarcissist]

so what about frost axes?? just use what the codex says? i hope they get faq to ap2 or im gonna be a sore wolf lord

[Kawauso]

A frost axe is a special type of power weapon - like a lightning claw. I don't see how the changes to the generic 'power weapon' rules would apply.

The only thing that needs to be worked out in that regard is their AP value.

[Anggul]

Yes but that was before Space Marines could do ship combat, terminators were said to be the ones designed for that. Since then it has changed to be literally mini dreadnaughts. And then power weapons could tear through termi armour.

Obv if power fields changed, so can Genestealers. At least it seems snipers have lost rending.

And yet Tyranid rending claws are said in every piece of fluff ever to be so hard and sharp that they're capable of shearing through even adamantium. Genestealers being unable to rend through armour is about as likely to change as a Space Marine's signature weapon being a bolter. It's always there and always will be, and no-one really wants it any different.

Also, snipers should keep rending, I hope they do, it's meant to represent the sniper shooting through a weaker point in the armour. e.g. eye lenses, mouth grilles, joints such as necks, underarms etc.

[Coyote81]

Someone on Warseer posted a list of power weapon types and power spear had +1S on the charge or something like that. Makes no sense, spears are defensive.

Also, I was wrong re: Fuegan, his axe isn't described as a power weapon, it is named the Fire Axe, grants +1S and allows him to attack like a monstrous creature. Some relief.:)

Fuegan SMASH! He's like the hulk!

[Wolfshade]

I hate weapon rules that are made by people who have never actually used said weapon. A giant hammer may be a tad unwieldy, a single handed axe really isn't.
But hammers are good fun, and being charged whilst weilding ones enables you to have the warhammer already swinging in a defensive pattern (which requires little effort once you get it going).

I also find it strange to have someone like Dante attacking last because his power axe is un-weildy

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Space Marine on a Bike with a Power Lance: Not too shabby. I'm sure that people will manage to get over the WISYWIG parts of this, I mean, in most circumstances, the weapons exist in some shape or form for most races.

Anything in power armour just uses Grey Knights weapons, and say it's a whatever.
Eldar and Dark Eldar can use both sides of the coin, and mix and match bits.
Orks don't need it, they only need Klaws.

To be fair, I can't remember a rules change where people didn't lose out on something. And for friendly games, I'm sure people wouldn't mind you just using things as a Power Weapon.

[RGilbert26]

With regards to WYSIWYG and the Space Wolf example if your oponent points out that you dont have all weapons on each model then walk over to his models and point out what he is missing. Make sure to point out he's missing grenades etc. People who do that really annoy me.

With the other bit if your codex says "Power Weapon" then i would say you can then choose from the list in the rulebook and pick one (so if you've bought a power weapon and use an axe on the model then you can use it's new stats). But if it says "Power Sword" then you use the new updated rules for Power Swords, nothing else.

[eldargal]

I'm not sure the new rules mean buying a 'power weapon' will let you just choose whatever you want somehow, I think the 'go with what the model is wielding' will only go so far. Somehow I doubt many players will accept the Dire Avenger bladed gauntlet as a power fist.:rolleyes: I also can't imagine any circumstance where it would be worth sacrificing Eldar initiative to get Ap2 on a few attacks when most armies would be able to squish the model in question if they aren't killed first.

[Coyote81]

I'm dissappointed that noone noticed my comment wasn't really a joke. I don't have an eldar book, but if Fuegan says he attacks like a monstrous creature, that means he now gets a smash attack.

[eldargal]

Possibly, though the codex goes on to specify that he gets 2D6 AP, which is what MCs got in 5th. I could see a lot of arguments about whether or not he gets a smash attack or not. Hopefully GW will FAQ it.

[Coyote81]

I'd bring eldar allies for my Tau just so I can model a Hulk looking fuegan model, and go around spouting phrases like. "Fuegan SMASH". "Fuegan Sad"

[Luke Licens]

On the one hand, I can see how people aren't happy with the specific models they bough being nerfed due to core rule changes like this.

On the other hand, as so very many codex entries are vague on which 'power weapon' the models have, you now get to legally model for advantage, picking and choosing the right 'power weapon' for the job. I can see BA equipping full vet jump squads with 'power lances', or SM Command Squads on bikes doing the same thing.

My only regret is that we won't be seeing people 'mix it up' for purely visual purposes anymore. I'm going to have to either retire or refurbish a few models, but the building is my favorite part of the hobby anyway.

Also, if you're a dirty cheating *******, you can put 'power weapon' on your tournement army list, and swap them out with models (or parts, if you magnetize) to tailor to your oponent, like a virtual sideboard. It'd dishonest, and I doubt I'd play again against someone who actually did it, but it is technically legal. Until it gets FAQed away, or you get a new Codex.