Is everyone over reacting to overwatch?

[DrLove42]

Everyone seems to be taking the opinon that overwatch is going to mean the end of assaulting armies.

I think people seem to be overreacting a bit

Say you charge your Orks into a full squad of marines (no flamer).

10 Men
Rapid Fire - 20 shots.
Hit on 6's. 3 Hits
Wound on 4's. 2 Wounds

2 Wounds. Wow. That makes assaulting the enemy almost pointless! *Sarcasm*. Imagine using marines instead of Orks. You probably wouldn't even kill 1.

Charge the same Orks into my full DE Warrior Squad tricked out with 2 Cannons

48 Shots.
8 Hits
4 wounds.

Imagine marines instead of orks? 1 dead. Imagine terminators! probably no Dead!

Overwatch is not that good. Its a nice benefit but its not really going to change everyone to shooting not assaulting as much as people think.


Just don't assault Demon Flamers. Or Burna Boys.

[eldargal]

It was very threatening for Eldar (particular Eldar Noir) prior to finding out it could only be done once a turn. Now I agree, not that much to worry about.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

It's a cool mechanic though, and it *could* (and I use that word with much strain) change a turn.

Also, eldargal, it's Eldars Noirs. You need more "s"s. :D

[daboarder]

its not over-watch by itself that I believe is dangerous for assault armies.

Its Over-watch, random charges, casualty removal from the front, lack of combat consolidation and the new rapid fire rules that are going to result in the death of the typically now slower and more vulnerable assault armies.

and we STILL have to put up with stupid killing transports = passenger shooting revenge.

[eldargal]

Only if I were French, god forbid.



Also, eldargal, it's Eldars Noirs. You need more "s"s. :D

[Wolfshade]

I quite like it, it seems strange that a 30 man guarde squad would just look blankly at an infantry unit charging at them weapons drawn and not try and get pot shots off.
Certainly, the mechanic seems better than 2nds version of it.
It also gives a mechanism to try and balance a shooty army with CC.
One can only imagine that they have play tested this rule to death the ensure that it works effectively.

[DrLove42]

Well;

- Consolidate into Combat - We haven't been able to do it for 4-5 years anyway!

- Casulty removal from front - OK, this can slow armies

- Non Fleet armies are going to be faster now. Fleet armies are slower by 1-2" on average

- Rapid Fire isn't THAT differnet, although i'm not 100% on what is right now.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Only if I were French, god forbid.

I, unfortunately, cannot say that I am not French. With a last name like mine I have many claims to a French heritage. (Parratt, derived from Peret meaning "little Peter", as in one of Jesus' disciples!)

Amo ut invenio - I love as I find.

[Wolfshade]

Hmm, I am afraid I have been thinking.
A mob of orks attempt to assault an imperial guard blob, they are 5" away and roll 5 for their distance charged.
The guard blobs overwatches and manages to kill off the front row of orks so the nearest ones are 6" away.
Does this assault fail, or is the overwatch shooting resolved after models have been moved into base to base combat?

[LordGrise]

Hmm, I am afraid I have been thinking.
A mob of orks attempt to assault an imperial guard blob, they are 5" away and roll 5 for their distance charged.
The guard blobs overwatches and manages to kill off the front row of orks so the nearest ones are 6" away.
Does this assault fail, or is the overwatch shooting resolved after models have been moved into base to base combat?

Speaking as a Tau player, I would CENSORED FOR PUBLICATION like to hope this means the assault fails. If not, it makes the entire mechanic pointless.

[Wolfshade]

CENSORED FOR PUBLICATION = fudgecake?

I hope it would too and I play CC orientated armies

[Thanatos_elNyx]

Everyone seems to be taking the opinon that overwatch is going to mean the end of assaulting armies.

I think people seem to be overreacting a bit

Say you charge your Orks into a full squad of marines (no flamer).

10 Men
Rapid Fire - 20 shots.
Hit on 6's. 3 Hits
Wound on 4's. 2 Wounds

2 Wounds. Wow. That makes assaulting the enemy almost pointless! *Sarcasm*. Imagine using marines instead of Orks. You probably wouldn't even kill 1.

Charge the same Orks into my full DE Warrior Squad tricked out with 2 Cannons

48 Shots.
8 Hits
4 wounds.

Imagine marines instead of orks? 1 dead. Imagine terminators! probably no Dead!

Overwatch is not that good. Its a nice benefit but its not really going to change everyone to shooting not assaulting as much as people think.


Just don't assault Demon Flamers. Or Burna Boys.

I actually like the idea of Overwatch but you have to bear in mind that those 2/4 dead Orks could lose you 2/3 inches of assaulting reach.
But since assaulting has gained 1" on average, the loss of distance isn't that huge.

[DrLove42]

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of overwatch.

I really hope Tau get a wargear item that lets them shoot at full BS instead of BS1

But alot of people seem to be throwing all their toys out of the pram that its the end of all assault armies. Its not really is it

[Demonus]

10 Men
Rapid Fire - 20 shots.
Hit on 6's. 3 Hits
Wound on 4's. 2 Wounds

Depends on what you are fighting really.

10 Wraithguard
10 shots
Hitting on 3s with Eldar Power active
Wounding on 2s, ap2, rerollable if squad was doomed earlier
Uh oh....


Of course you have the anti overwatch Necron Lychguard hehe. Shoot me with plasma, I dare ya...

[gendoikari87]

what about twinlinked weapons? that'd be awesome.

overall stand and shoot isn't OP, so why should this be? Assault armies are OP as it is, they need to be taken down a peg.

[uglytater]

If you can use Overwatch only once a turn does that mean that every assault needs to be declared, then the defender can choose which unit Overwatches?

[Majorcrash]

I remember 2nd ed overwatch (yea yea I that old) that overwatch nearly broke the game. You couldnt move without getting blasted. Coupled that with popup attacks :( the new overwatch really only makes one thing less attractive; the multi assault. it you assault more then overwatching unit, then you get shot by all. otherwise i think it help to make assault armies a little more in line with other rules. In otherwords theres a risk and you should weight your optins.

[Necron2.0]

... particular Eldar Noir.

Eldar Noir ... LOL!!

OK, that's it. I'm sculpting fedoras onto all my wyches now!
http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/179/7/5/wych2_by_necron2_0-d557ces.jpg

[Mr.Pickelz]

The biggest thing I'm "overreacting" to is the remove from the front wound allocation as that will screw over my green tide real quickly, and can potentially end the game after deployment.:(

[Levitas]

It was very threatening for Eldar (particular Eldar Noir) prior to finding out it could only be done once a turn. Now I agree, not that much to worry about.

As in one unit per turn may overwatch, or one overwatch per unit per turn (As in they get multi charged)?

Does overwatch count as close combat or shooting? Obvious, or is it? Does a Wyches dodge say in combat?

I'm not crazy about it. But adapt and carry on!

[Anggul]

While overwatch does indeed make assault even more inferior to shooting than it already was (and yes, yes it was), I'm more concerned by the nerf to power weapons (seriously, terminators and paladins were good already, why make them better?), the random charge distance (yes you can get further but many a game will be lost due to rolling low and your entire plan going out the window), and the changes to cover will of course hurt combat units.

BS1 shooting isn't going to do much. Having your Incubi, Sanguinary Guard etc. stuck in a hopeless fight with some terminators, on the other hand, is going to mess you up and shouldn't happen. An Incubus with a klaive or a Sanguinary Guard with a glaive encarmine (for example) should definitely be able to cut through terminator armour. I'm hoping in vain for big two-handed power weapons like these to be like power axes but without the lower initiative.

[eldargal]

Overwatch isn't limited to one unit afterall, though the wording is a litlte ambiguous.:( Wyches aren't worth taking anymore unless the yget a 5++ dodge save against shooting in a FAQ or something. Which isn't that likely.

[DrLove42]

Wyches aren't takable in their current role of CC.

They need to be adapted

Either use them exclusivly as armour hunters (Haywire grenades will F S up)
Or use them charging into a combat that is already locked in, and so no shooting

[eldargal]

Yep, Dark Eldar tarpit experts can no longer tarpit because they will die before they get the chance.:rolleyes: Really there is no point charging them into an already ongoing combat, you really want to charge shardnet wyches into deathstar units to slow them down. Now even just with bolt pistol overwatch they will thin the numbers too much to make the attempt.

Armour hunting is moderately viable, but that just means the enemy assault units will have even less to fear. We have no reliable way of slowing deathstar units down now.

I'm hoping the FAQ might address this, but honestly it is such a fundamental issue with T3, 5/6+ save units that I don't see how it could happen. Dodge being buffed to work against overwatch fire is the only thing I could think of and GW may not even think of it or if they do, want to do such a thing.:(

[Kawauso]

Wait, how does this make Wyches so worthless?

I don't have my new book yet, so I'm still fuzzy on the specifics of snapfire and all that jazz...

But if 10 Wyches assault 10 Tactical Marines, and the Marines get to double-tap them beforehand at BS1...
That's 3-4 hits for the Marines, resulting in 2-3 wounds/dead Wyches.

It hurts a bit, but it doesn't seem all that bad.

[eldargal]

33% reduction in effectiveness before it gets into combat is pretty bad for S3 T3 no PW troops, even with a 4++ once they get into combat. Especially when wyches are twice as expensive as the other T3 assault troops that suffer from this ('nids mostly). So the wyches lose 2 but the 'gaunts also lose two but theree are 2-3 times more of them.

Though with defensive grenades and decent positioning it might not be so bad, even a 5+ save would mitigate it somewhat. Honestly it probably isn't as bad as I hought a while ago, reading over th rules again and taking things in context has helped.:)

[Kawauso]

Sounds like it will force a bit of a tactical shake-up more than anything, really.

Assaults have to be picked a bit more carefully (i.e. perhaps not full-strength units), but I don't think that's necessarily bad.

Gah, I just want my rulebook to arrive already. :(

[Mr Mystery]

While overwatch does indeed make assault even more inferior to shooting than it already was (and yes, yes it was), I'm more concerned by the nerf to power weapons (seriously, terminators and paladins were good already, why make them better?), the random charge distance (yes you can get further but many a game will be lost due to rolling low and your entire plan going out the window), and the changes to cover will of course hurt combat units.

BS1 shooting isn't going to do much. Having your Incubi, Sanguinary Guard etc. stuck in a hopeless fight with some terminators, on the other hand, is going to mess you up and shouldn't happen. An Incubus with a klaive or a Sanguinary Guard with a glaive encarmine (for example) should definitely be able to cut through terminator armour. I'm hoping in vain for big two-handed power weapons like these to be like power axes but without the lower initiative.

Dude. If you're plan hinges entirely on a single unit making combat, it probably wasn't all that great a plan in the first place. New strategy? Set up multiple charges, yes even with your heavy hitters. Helps to stop them being stranded in no mans land, and getting all perished.