Issues of a language

[Wolfshade]

I read many posts across a variety of internet fora (yes, forum is a neuter noun that becomes fora when in the plural form) and I am increasing annoyed with peoples' use of the language that they claim to be fluent in. I do accept from the outset that there are many people for whom (accusative) English is not their (showing ownership) first language and that it is quite difficult.
The "problem" with English is that it does not come from a single root; instead the language is derived from a Germanic root (Anglo-Saxon), Latin (both through the Roman invasion and the Bible being in Latin), Greek (again through the Bible and being used as a scholarly language as late as last century) as well as the influence of others like that native British, Vikings, Celts, Picts etc.
As a consequence you have a language that largely uniform how it deals with language rules but then there are always exceptions.

Common irritations

There, Their and They're

Quite simple to deal with
There - indicating a place, "There are thirty boyz in that mob"
Their - showing possession, "The boyz have got their killy axes ready"
They're - contraction of they are, "They're about to assault your fire warriors"

Its and It's

It's - this should be used most frequently, it is a contraction of "it is", "It's not fair you rolled 120 attack dice"
Its - this is a possessive pronoun, think would this make sense to use his or her in its place, "Its got a boss pole", in this case the "It" is the nob.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Huzrah nu, kul do od,
wah aan bok lingrah vod,
Ahrk fin tey, baziik fun,
do fin gein

[Wolfshade]

I literally have no idea what was supposed to say

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hearken now, sons of snow,
to an age long ago,
and the tale,
boldy told, for the one.

I like the Dragon language!

[Psychosplodge]

I don't know about you, but by the time I did my GCSEs they weren't actually teaching any real rules of grammar beyond capitalisation, fullstops and paragraphing. Spelling had completely gone out the window, and most of my peers and the staff supposedly teaching us relied on incorrect settings on microsoft word's spell checker...


Also kind of dragon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv1VWb6nLK0) related....

[Wolfshade]

..most of my peers and the staff supposedly teaching us relied on incorrect settings on microsoft word's spell checker...

That has so much to answer for.
Not quite as much as Webster, but still a lot.

In my junior school we were taught it properly, at secondary, not so much. I love the roots of words and my grammar comes from that. One of my friends is very well versed in greek and latin so we have fun in the pub discussing such things much to the bemusment of our fellows.

[Psychosplodge]

well considering I personally wouldn't have trusted half of them to actually turn on a pc....

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I wish I could watch Youtube.

[Psychosplodge]

You still not watched that burlesque one yet? lol

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I can't get on Youtube at work. :/

[eldargal]

Personally it is 'could care less' that gets me the most, especially when people call someone who points out why it was wrong a pedantic or accuses them of semantics. It is not pedantic or semantic to point out you are saying the exact opposite of what you mean.:rolleyes:

[Psychosplodge]

I think the your/you're one is what annoys me the most online, closely followed by their/there/they're and then by u I mean seriously? How hard is it to write you?

[Wolfshade]

The one that annoys me the most is the use of "due" as a preposition.
It makes it worse that the company I work for has that as part of their internet messages.

"The event is cancelled due to the rain" is wrong
"The cancellation of the event is due to the rain" is ok as it is being used as an adjective.

Avoid the messy issue and use "because of" or "owing to"

[Wildeybeast]

In my junior school we were taught it properly, at secondary, not so much. I love the roots of words and my grammar comes from that.

That's because we mistakenly assume by the time they get to us in big school they have a basic grasp of English. They don't. But fear not, the escpaed mental patient masquerading as education secretary is going to force them all to memorise poems in primary school, so that will solve everything. :mad:

[Aldramelech]

I read many posts across a variety of internet fora (yes, forum is a neuter noun that becomes fora when in the plural form) and I am increasing annoyed with peoples' use of the language that they claim to be fluent in. I do accept from the outset that there are many people for whom (accusative) English is not their (showing ownership) first language and that it is quite difficult.
The "problem" with English is that it does not come from a single root; instead the language is derived from a Germanic root (Anglo-Saxon), Latin (both through the Roman invasion and the Bible being in Latin), Greek (again through the Bible and being used as a scholarly language as late as last century) as well as the influence of others like that native British, Vikings, Celts, Picts etc.
As a consequence you have a language that largely uniform how it deals with language rules but then there are always exceptions.

Common irritations

There, Their and They're

Quite simple to deal with
There - indicating a place, "There are thirty boyz in that mob"
Their - showing possession, "The boyz have got their killy axes ready"
They're - contraction of they are, "They're about to assault your fire warriors"

Its and It's

It's - this should be used most frequently, it is a contraction of "it is", "It's not fair you rolled 120 attack dice"
Its - this is a possessive pronoun, think would this make sense to use his or her in its place, "Its got a boss pole", in this case the "It" is the nob.

You forgot the Normans :p

[Chris Copeland]

I am a school teacher. I feel your pain. I teach eight year-olds. I often tell my students, "I didn't invent this crazy language. I'm just here to teach it to you." English is both brilliant and problematic at the same time. Brilliant because it absorbs everything it can from every language it comes into contact with. It is problematic for exactly the same reason. Also, I am an ESL teacher in a border state. Every year I get all of these little one who speak English as a second language (Spanish is the most prevalent first language amongst my students). Learning English can be very difficult because it is such an irregular language (as opposed to Spanish which is quite regular). /sigh

I am a fan of crime dramas such as Snatch and Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels. Saturday Night Live did a parody trailer in the same vein as those films. Check out the trailer for Don' you go Rounin' Roun to Re Ro (http://donyougorouninrountorero.com/)... if you are a fan of proper English it should crack you up!

[Wolfshade]

You forgot the Normans :p

Norman was a hodge podge of viking/saxon/ancient french

or

I didn't forget them I was just trying to gloss over that whole invasion thing ;)

[DarkLink]

Personally it is 'could care less' that gets me the most, especially when people call someone who points out why it was wrong a pedantic or accuses them of semantics. It is not pedantic or semantic to point out you are saying the exact opposite of what you mean.:rolleyes:

I want to start using "could care less" in situations where it's actually correct, and see people's reactions when they assume that I'm saying that I don't care at all.

[eldargal]

Well obviously if you do care it is appropriate, but it is seldom used in that context.:rolleyes:

[Wolfshade]

I want to start using "could care less" in situations where it's actually correct, and see people's reactions when they assume that I'm saying that I don't care at all.

Irrgardless, people will probably not realise you are being amusing :D

[DrLove42]

My biggest gripe in speech is people who say "pacific" instead of "Specific"

Its like nails on a chalk baord for me, and its the only time I ever correct people

[Psychosplodge]

That's reasonable grounds isn't it?

[Wildeybeast]

My biggest gripe in speech is people who say "pacific" instead of "Specific"

Its like nails on a chalk baord for me, and its the only time I ever correct people

Mine is people who say/write 'of' instead of 'have'. Drives me potty.

[bfmusashi]

Norman was a hodge podge of viking/saxon/ancient french

or

I didn't forget them I was just trying to gloss over that whole invasion thing ;)

Viking is not a language ;)

[Mr Mystery]

Trust me. You don't want to work in Insurance Claims.

You see, I work in the back office, doing clever clever technical stuff, and generally pulling apart other peoples arguements (and occasionally acknowledging they have a point). This is okay, as we're all pretty literate. We have to be. We have to write wordy letters, and explain complicated things to simple people.

But front office? Or 'BLOODY FNOL!' as it's most commonly referred to? Not. A. Hope. They type up the circs. We could automate the initial letter of allegation, lifting the information from the file, and depositing it neatly onto a word document. But we don't. We're too embarassed by FNOL's lack of literacy. To see them mangle even the simplest sentence beyond comprehension is just depressing. What's that third party insurer? You want to know our allegations? Well, ****ed if I know. I just have a stream of consciousness. I think they typed this one with their face.....'

And it gets worse. One of the main roles of the team leaders is to check every single letter and email being sent out for correct spelling, wording and grammar. But on account the team leaders are generally no more than the smartest amoeba in the vomit, so much is missed. And I'm being serious. I'm sure you can appreciate that it gets worse when you get letters typed by a foreign call centre employee with better grammar than a native speaker. Granted said foreign call centres struggle with British road traffic law, but that I can work around.

Far and away our company has the worst literacy in the industry. Which is why I'm hopefully jumping ship soon.

[Chris Copeland]

I live in a region where people use the word "y'all." It is a contraction of the words "you" and "all." The proper way to write it is "y'all" because apostrophes go where letters have been dropped in contractions (mostly).

Here is the part that drives me crazy: a lot of people write it as "ya'll." It hurts my head to see it written that way. "Ya'll" would be pronounced "ya-ull." There was even a billboard next to the interstate that read, "Ya'll come back!" The City of New Braunfels had paid for that sign! Even the local government was incorrectly writing "y'all." It hurt my soul to drive by that billboard every day. I've even had to explain all of the above to fellow teachers. Ugh.

Cope

[bfmusashi]

I'd shimmy up there and change it. I used to correct signs like that all the time, but there are some folks out here that intentionally misspell signs so people will stop. The lady we buy our veggies from is one of them.

[Wolfshade]

There is colloquially named greengrocers apostrophe and it is so-called because of the seeming inability for greengrocers to be able to use them correctly on signs.

I am annoyed with the way that some things are simplified to cut out errors.
There are places like King's Norton and Accock's Green that have been renamed Kings Norton and Ac***** Green just so people don't get the apostrophe in the wrong place.

Also what is irritating is dumb "language filters" that cannot tell the difference between an allegedly offensive words and where it is used in a proper noun.
Who know's what it would make of a shortened form of cockerel

[Chris Copeland]

I'd shimmy up there and change it. I used to correct signs like that all the time...

I can see the headline now: "Local Teacher Arrested for Vandalism. Says He Couldn't Take Poor Grammar Any Longer." :)

[DarkLink]

I believe this is somewhat relevant, albeit indirectly: http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/

[Wolfshade]

Indirectly relevant is my speciality ;)
It is highlighting a problem that is known to occur and shows that too often people get to academic institutions without the necessary written English skills to be there.
I sometimes wonder if we would be better off having a system that required you to pass each school year before you could progress. But then that would limit those who are not academic and are better suited to do other forms of education like apprenticeships.

[Chris Copeland]

I just read the article. Wow. Just wow. How horrible! I hope such nonsense never makes its way down to Second Grade! :p

PS We are experimenting with High Stakes Testing here in Texas. The results have been horrendous. It is NOT good for education!

[eldargal]

Ha, a boy in one of my classes used a service like that once, lecturer got him up in front of everyone and asked if he really thought he (the lecturer) was so stupid that he couldn't detect a strangely good, grammatically adequate essay coming from a studen for whom recieving a properly structured sentence was a minor miracle.:rolleyes:

I believe this is somewhat relevant, albeit indirectly: http://chronicle.com/article/The-Shadow-Scholar/125329/

[Wolfshade]

Being a science graduate the issue of essays was never a problem ;)

What is "High Stakes Testing"?

I remember a story I was told at the union one evening, a lecturer set his class an essay on a peculiar topic and informed his class under no circumstances to use wikipedia to research it, instead use the journals and library facilities that the university had provided. After it was handed in and marked, he split the essays into two piles, ones without wikipedia and those with. The class astonished by his ability to divine the difference between the two calmly informed them that he was the sole author of the wikipedia article and it was inaccurate and the references cited were made up.

[Chris Copeland]

High Stakes Tests are tests that students take that determine whether or not they advance to the next grade level. They also, ultimately, determine if a student is eligible to graduate. They are state mandated standardized tests that students begin taking in Third Grade (when they are 9 years old). The whole testing regime is pretty horrendous. I am an educator and I have to say that such tests tend to narrow, not broaden, education. I believe that they increase drop-out rates, unduly stress-out students and their families, and have made education worse, not better.

Damn. Now I'm upset. It's summertime. I'm on vacation. I'm going to float down the river today with a gaming buddy and the whole day has a shadow cast over it because now I'm thinking about THIS (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-business-leaders-accuse-educators-of-scaring-mom-about-standardized-tests/2012/06/28/gJQAKbCO8V_blog.html) again. Grrrrr...

[bfmusashi]

I can see the headline now: "Local Teacher Arrested for Vandalism. Says He Couldn't Take Poor Grammar Any Longer." :)

You're just doing the job the tax payers require.

[Chris Copeland]

You're just doing the job the tax payers require.

BF, you should know better. You also live in the South. Trespassers get shot in these parts!

[Wolfshade]

I hold two rather contrasting views on this sort of testing, on the one had I am for students requiring a certain level of attainment before progressing onto the next year, on the other hand I think that children are over tested and examinations generally only measure one form of intelligence, the ability to recall facts. Since leaving academia and entering work never once have I been asked to derive any formula that I use in everyday life.

I remember talking to my form tutor in VIth form (17/18) about a kid who had joined the school (12) and had already obtained a GCSE in mathematics and his parents were upset that the kid was in the lowest set as although he had a qualification in the subjecthe didn't have the subject knowledge.

[Chris Copeland]

Wolf, I can assure you that the entire system has gone batty. The pressure has even pushed down to the grade I teach (2nd Grade, 8 year-olds) because we use district benchmark tests that are closely akin to the tests that they'll be taking the next year. Ughghgh...

[Wolfshade]

Surely you get to the point where you end up coaching people to pass the exams rather than learning the subject.
I went to a school where you had to pass an entrance exam to get into. While at the school you could tell the difference between those who passed because of ability and those who passed because of coaching

[Thanatos_elNyx]

Personally it is 'could care less' that gets me the most, especially when people call someone who points out why it was wrong a pedantic or accuses them of semantics. It is not pedantic or semantic to point out you are saying the exact opposite of what you mean.:rolleyes:

This, a million times this!
I have the David Mitchell YT clip saved as a link for quick deployment.

That and people who spell "lose" as "loose".

[bfmusashi]

I'm a native Virginian so we're in an odd place in the What is Southern debate. The rule where I lived was you only got shot (and thus trespassed) on places that could be called "My Land." The sign sounds like it's off the road but if you wanted to be civilized about it I'd go to one of the public meetings and tell everyone the sign fails to make one feel welcomed to a hospitable town while making everyone who lives there look like a dumbass. Ya'll also makes it look like it's full of promiscuous women and as a man you can not stand by as a lady's (or in this case ladies') honor is brought into question.
I suspect Virginia is viewed with suspicion by other southerners as our state motto is far to badass for a southern state. In this we are closest related to New Hampshire. We're also home to the first Bill of Rights (the crankiest legal document ever drafted) so we have a codified lack of trust in anything.

[Wolfshade]

New grammar tests will 'impoverish English teaching' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18632399)

[Psychosplodge]

The spelling, and grammar on the bbc news website is shameful...