The Case for Allies

[DrBored]

Chapter 1: The Summary

It's not news or rumor any more. Allies are in. How exactly it works is yet to be seen, but it's clear that Tyranids won't get any and Necron and Imperial Guard will be able to ally with just about everyone.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=0&aId=22400024a&start=1&multiPageMode=true

Check out that link for what looks to be as official of a list we're going to get until the rulebook actually drops into our hands. Don't worry that the images aren't links, just use the nav bar on the left side to go between armies.

Before I go any farther, I'm going to talk about some interesting combos within the allies page...

Grey Knights can ally with Dark Eldar, Orks, all the Space Marines, Necron, Imperial Guard and Eldar. Throw a Librarian and Terminator squad in as your troops and fill the rest out as you please. Sound juicy?

Out of all the armies, Chaos Marines seem to follow fluff the most. Daemons, Imperial (Traitor) Guard, Necron, Orks, Tau, and Dark Eldar. No Eldar, no Space Marines. In some old fluff, Necron were described as being the antithesis to Chaos Marines, who would go crazy with fear at the idea of being disintegrated into lifeless order. Obviously, things have changed since then.

The least fluffy allies? Black Templar. Not only are they able to ally with all Imperium forces (including Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle) but also Necron, Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar. The only ones they aren't able to ally with are Chaos Marines, Daemons, and Orks! How heretical can you get BT? Allying with Eldar witches? I don't think so.

All in all however, it's clear that GW thought long and hard about how they wanted to do allies. They stretched the limits of fluff as far as conceivably possible in order to fit as many allies into each army as possible. If you condense all of the Space Marine Codices (minus Chaos) into one 'Space Marine Ally Block' then no army really gets a great advantage over any other in terms of who they can ally with (except Tyranids, of course). Even Sisters of Battle get a decent list of allies.

Games Workshop didn't want everyone to ally with everyone. It's clear that they did this for fluff reasons and not balance reasons. The balanced approach would be to let anyone ally with anyone, including Tyranids, but I feel that this would have simply promoted the worst of min-maxing. Within the constraints that we have, players should still be able to explore a very large number of ally combinations and enjoy all that allies have to bring to the table (except Tyranids, of course).

Since I've mentioned them already, let's mention them again. Tyranids. They don't get any allies. Some Tyranid players could surely come up with some fluffy reason why Tyranids would be able to at LEAST ally with Imperial Guard, via Genestealer Cults and the like. The rumor is that the Force Organization Chart may be more malleable in the new edition than in the past, and that Tyranids may be able to, effectively, 'ally' with themselves. This would allow them to take extra models in more slots at lower point value games to help Tyranids compete with the other allied armies. It is interesting, however, that Tyranids are left alone. What I want Tyranid players to do is to test the bounds of their army within the new edition. If there truly is no hope for the army, I'm sure we'll discover that quickly, but don't discount that until you've tried. Keep in mind all of the extra rules for Monstrous Creatures, and that Tyranids have the largest block of MC's out of any army.

---

Chapter 2: Viability

The biggest worry out there on the internet right now is the viability of allies, or how it might break the game.

If only one army was receiving allies, then yes, that would be a fair assessment, but EVERYONE (let's just assume from here on out that Tyranids aren't included in instances of 'everyone') gets allies. Some of the allies make more sense than others, and it's clear that there will be different levels of allies (from trusted to 'Allies of Convenience'). This level will dictate how 'broken' any one thing can get. Let's also remember that all of the Space Marine armies are, more or less, the same. They share vehicles, weapons, and the same power armor. The only difference comes in some HQ's, psychic powers, and other special rules. All in all, a Space Marine is a Space Marine is a Space Marine, and they all die like Space Marines, so kill them like Space Marines and any combo of Space Marines should not be threatening to you.

In short, I'm not worried about allies breaking the game. It is clear to me already that Games Workshop has put a lot of thought into the ally system. Beyond the obvious (being able to take small ally detachments will sell more models), this opens up a lot of new strategy for games of 40k, even within TOURNAMENTS.

There's what a large number of people really care about. Will allies be allowed in Tournaments? I surely hope so, because not allowing them will only satisfy the needs of the current min-maxers who don't want their enemies to have an edge over the net-list they copied off of the internet with their count-as 'Space Dark Templar Blood Wolves of Chaos Knights'.

If you're a Tournament Organizer, and you're reading this, ALLOW ALLIES. The rules will be just as all other 40k rules have been, it won't complicate things as long as your players have their Codices and rulebooks, and it will make for a much more interesting scene, much more interesting armies, much more interesting comp (or lack thereof) and much more FUN time for the players themselves. The only people that loose out are the Win At All Costs (WAAC) gamers that want to keep spamming up a storm.

The thing that allies is going to reduce are exactly what WAAC gamers don't want to lose: net-lists. Net lists do a wonderful thing for WAAC gamers. Once a net-list becomes solidified in the realm of the Internet, gamers that want to start an army or get an 'easy win' follow the frame of the net-list and bring that list to a tournament, expecting great things. WAAC gamers know the net lists well and will either follow the frame or build their army to combat those net lists, making it easier for them to win.

With allies, you delete the possibility for net lists. With allies, there are simply too many combinations, possibilities, and new strategies. Allies are the trump card. Within the realm of a single codex, it's easy to make a net list once you understand what is effective and what isn't, but when you throw the monkey wrench that is an 'allied detachment' into the mix, net lists take a back seat. Only the truly moronic will continue to follow net lists, simply because it's all that they know to do. Once allies drop, players will experiment with more army builds and play styles than we've ever seen before, and it will open up the realm of strategy and army building far beyond the current meta.

Speaking of meta, say goodbye to it. Sure, if the Space Marine Ally Block remains strictly Space Marines, you'll still be able to kill them with Space Marine Meta Tactics, but once you throw a detachment of Tau, Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Necron, or Orks into the mix, the meta flies out the window. How can you prepare for an army that can have incredible range and also an effective assault block? How can you prepare for an army that has incredible Power Armor saves as well as a horde of flashlight infantry? The long and short of it is that you can't, so your best bet is to simply build a list that you can work with and go into the tournament with all your wits and skills about you and hope for the best. Your measure as a general will be decided on the table as it happens, not on the Internet with a net list.

I say again, Tournament Organizers, allow allies. It may be more work at the beginning when everyone is learning how they interact and how to build lists with them, but once the birthing pains of 6th edition are over, I predict that we'll find ourselves in a golden age of list building, where the combinations cannot be listed, and the 'best of the best net-list' cannot be decided simply because there are too many new strategies to contemplate and a much broader meta to consider.

---

Chapter 3: TL;DR

Allies are going to be awesome.

They aren't going to break the game, they're going to expand it.

Tournaments should allow allies because they get rid of any pretense of 'meta' and 'spam'.

Net-lists are a thing of the past.

Thanks for reading!

[hammer hades]

I think this is pretty broken
http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/allies-in-6th-edition-imperial-guard.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Faeit212+(Faeit+212)

[DarkLink]

BT codex specifically states that they trust the GKs, from the old ally rules.

[mysterex]

While I agree with the concept of allies in the game I don't like the execution. Some of this contradicts the established background too much to make real sense.

The other thing is that I think the net list situation will get a lot worse as particularly broken combinations get identified.

[eldargal]

We don't actually have the full picture of how it hasb een executed to make that kind of judgement yet. We have a bit of a write up from the summary in WD.

Another thing to remember is that just because someone will abuse a new feature doesn't mean it should be included. GW are all about narrative games not competitive play, Allies a huge boon for narrative gamers (who GW believe make up the majority of their playerbase, and they should know).

[hammer hades]

I personally love allies, as i have always wanted to have a blood angels/ dark angels force, and have always wanted to play guard with my marines (I can't see why i shouldn't already be able to do so) so this is a huge boon for me. :D

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Tau Dark Eldar here I come... May have to create that story from the fluff where Urien Rakrath allies with Tau against nids :P

[Houghten]

Sisters can ally with Grey Knights!

The Witch Hunters are back, baby!

*cue utterly talentless dancing with much hip-thrusting*

[isotope99]

With sensible restrictions on FOC, separation of abilities and transport use, and a few disdavantages for less fluffy alliances, I can see this working.

In smaller games the 2 HQ 3 Troop minimum will limit the impact (there isn't much army left after you've dumped in your standard choices and some grey knights HQ and troops and in larger games the FOC will come into effect.

In the short term I can see plenty of 'utility' alliances to get solar pulses and runes of warding for example. It should also be a much bigger boost to older armies like Tau than to newer armies with better options and costings.

[gcsmith]

BTW, for The Black Templar, Codex trumps rule book, Only armies they can ally with that contain any psykers are Grey Knights.

Any eldar army they ally with cannot have any pyskers.

Also BT are still marines, and they are very anti witch, not anti xenos. Sure they hate orks, but the Imperium made use of Xenos, especially during the crusade. "SQUATS" cough cough. Personally, I'm glad my two armies can ally. Or at very least, I can take a storm talon in my black templar army through allies.

[madlib]

I apologize if this is something that has already been confirmed and discussed, but has there been any clear indication as of yet if the new ally rules are going to affect the background fluff / lore at all?

I'm hoping that allies is only a game mechanics / rules change purely and has nothing to do with any sort of background fluff / lore change.

[DrLove42]

Im kn 2 minds about allies. Its good for fluff, not so much in army balence.

It smacks a little of GW designers saying " i have these 2 armies in my collection - lets make a way up so i can use them togetjer even though they really wouldnt"

[madlib]

Hmm, you didn't quite answer my question, that is if you were attempting to answer it at all, but I appreciate the effort if you were.

Does anyone else know?

I'll repeat it again for ease.

I apologize if this is something that has already been confirmed and discussed, but has there been any clear indication as of yet if the new ally rules are going to affect the background fluff / lore at all?

I'm hoping that allies is only a game mechanics / rules change purely and has nothing to do with any sort of background fluff / lore change.

[energongoodie]

Allies is gonna be great :D

Back in 2nd edition I had a crazy powerful Space Wolf army with Eldar allies. It was Ragnar with a bunch of Wolf Guard Terminators backed up by Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks and Dire avengers. It had more Eldar models than Space wolf. It was broken and power gamery and it was brilliant! :>
That was fun for the teenage me. Now though, I am just excited about having a unit or two from lots of armies that I do not want to collect fully but have always admired. I think it is gonna look great on the tabletop.
I hope people come to really like this reintroduction of allies. I think it will add a nice variety to peoples games and will generate a lot of interesting lists designed to take advantage of the combinations and to combat the new and powerful partnerships that we are gonna be seeing.

[eldargal]

We have no indication as to any fluff changes at all, so we don't know how allies will affect it.

Hmm, you didn't quite answer my question, that is if you were attempting to answer it at all, but I appreciate the effort if you were.

Does anyone else know?

I'll repeat it again for ease.

I apologize if this is something that has already been confirmed and discussed, but has there been any clear indication as of yet if the new ally rules are going to affect the background fluff / lore at all?

I'm hoping that allies is only a game mechanics / rules change purely and has nothing to do with any sort of background fluff / lore change.

[Mr Mystery]

There are already numerous references to unusual allies in the background, so no change there.

I'm not concerned about the Allies rules. Sure, there'll be players out there intent on abusing it, but if it wasn't allies, they'd be abusing something else.

As I mentioned in another thread, I'm interested in adding some IG to my Necrons to represent mindshackled slaves. But before I do this, I want to beat an IG player. Depending on how the game goes I'll adjust my allies accordingly. I'd quite like to get his Command Squad in HTH, where my Overlord can set about infecting them with mindshackles there and then. In my minds eye, they aren't being slain in combat, just subdued. Once a Command Squad is bagged, the men will follow. And with that, I'm building up a narrative of my own.

I've done the same thing with my Ogres in Fantasy. In a campaign, they remain as a neutral force until someone beats me, at which point I skew my actions to being Mercenaries for that army/faction in the campaign.

It's the players that make and break the game, not the rules.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

I'm liking the look of it.

Of course, there's always the possibility that a book will be updated and it draws more flak than others, and forces balance around.

Financially, this is awesome. They can do away with the 2nd/3rd waves for armies, and actually push for whole releases at the start of a new book. Effectively, every army receives an update when there is a new book. People don't need to jump too far to start a new army: They can buy it piecemeal, and use it as allies in their current army until they build it up.

As a gamer, this is awesome. I'm trying to think of different ways to convert models to fit with a Dark Eldar army which fit the mould aesthetically. Is there a way I can Tau up a Tactical Squad to look like a new battlesuit variant? Surely I can make a unit of Imperial Guard veterans look like Wracks? Baron Sathonyx and a unit of Hellions in an Eldar army? Imperial Guard and Blood Axe Orks?

I'm thinking about the game in ways I haven't before, because the option was never there. In the past, I would somehow have to come up with some house rules which only 1 person would accept, or just say that this "counts as" something else.

Have a fragile army? add a Tactical Squad to it so that you have a tough bunker unit for objectives.

Have a slow army? Get some Dark Eldar in there. Make them cheap for suicidal charges.

Need some bodies? Orks or Imperial Guard, happy to help!

Inquisitorial Allies for Space Marines.

Necrons and Blood Angels! You know you want it!

Chaos players don't need to cry any more about rubbish Daemons. They can take Defilers, AND Soul Grinders. They get Traitor Guard, can use Orks as some kind of Chaos Spawn unit, and can take daemons which have Deep Strike units and arrive on Turn one.

Tau players don't have to cry for Auxiliary Guard: They can just take a Platoon. Think of a unit which would help Tau out: they can probably take it. Suddenly, the Ethereals special rule won't destroy your entire army, you'll still have allies on the board.

Anyone who thinks this is only a bad thing is worried about one thing alone: This will affect my win ratio. Of course, they can get around that by:

*Not relying on the newest army/ cheapest tricks.
*Building a general "takes all comers" list, rather than relying on the meta game to tell them what to take this week.
*Relaxing, having a drink, and playing with friends.

[lattd]

Totally agree with you Diagnosis Ninja, this is great because it gives so many more options.

[Anggul]

As a Tyranid player, I'm not really bothered by not being able to have allies. None of them would make sense, and given what we've been hearing about monstrous creatures and jump infantry/flyers, I think we're going to get a pretty significant buff. The nerf to cover will hurt us like hell and is quite unfair to Tyranids as we pretty much rely entirely on cover to avoid being completely blown away. I really think it was a bad choice as cover should be a big deal in a battle. Making it worse just makes mech even better, and is only really okay for Spehss Mahreens.


EDIT: Wait why in the hell can Black Templars ally with Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau and Necrons?! So much for fluff. -.-

[Diagnosis Ninja]

It's basically going back to what it was:

Giving Shoota boys a save against everything which isn't a lasgun.
Making sure Guardsmen always get a save, instead of an improvement.
Acting as a last ditch attempt against the big guns for space marines.

It was like this back in 4th.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Well if you play ruins based terrain you'll be fine... But I feel for you as a Dark Eldar player!

[fuzzbuket]

im thinking either tau/eldar or eldar/lamenters



this also is great because it means you dont have to cash out as much for a new army, just have a unit or two in your normal army and see how it works :D

edit: tau/chaos daemons?! DAFUQ

[Anggul]

edit: tau/chaos daemons?! DAFUQ

There's sillier in there, believe me. XD

Still, I trust my local players to stay true and not ally obviously silly things, I doubt they'd want to. It's mainly Templars and Sisters who would 100% only ally with Imperials. There are a few other daft ones in there too like Daemons and Tau but mostly they seem arguable.

I'd love to ally Tau and Dark Eldar to make an army from that fluff in the Dark Eldar codex where the Haemonculi make armies to help the Tau against the Tyranids, and as the war goes on more and more of the abominations looks suspiciously blueish grey. :p

[Mr Mystery]

There's sillier in there, believe me. XD

Still, I trust my local players to stay true and not ally obviously silly things, I doubt they'd want to. It's mainly Templars and Sisters who would 100% only ally with Imperials. There are a few other daft ones in there too like Daemons and Tau but mostly they seem arguable.

I'd love to ally Tau and Dark Eldar to make an army from that fluff in the Dark Eldar codex where the Haemonculi make armies to help the Tau against the Tyranids, and as the war goes on more and more of the abominations looks suspiciously blueish grey. :p

You forget the Tau's complete naiivety. I mean they genuinely believe they've kiilled Slaanesh! Deamons can take pretty much any form, but are influenced by the mind of the beholder. Daemons are extremely cunning, and it couldn't be that hard to hoodwink the Tau? I mean look at what happened when a Sept World was 'saved' from Tyranids by an awakening Tomb World. They welcome their saviours with open arms, and planet is promptly harvested!

[Anggul]

You forget the Tau's complete naiivety. I mean they genuinely believe they've kiilled Slaanesh! Deamons can take pretty much any form, but are influenced by the mind of the beholder. Daemons are extremely cunning, and it couldn't be that hard to hoodwink the Tau? I mean look at what happened when a Sept World was 'saved' from Tyranids by an awakening Tomb World. They welcome their saviours with open arms, and planet is promptly harvested!

As a Tyranid player I'll be the first to say that that abomination of a codex shouldn't be used as a reference for fluff. According to it Dark Eldar hang around and party on-planet after raiding it rather than getting back to the webway as quickly as possible. That part about the Tau just letting Necrons onto their world without a question was absolutely stupid. Only Dawn of War calls the Tau naive, and I don't think I need to qualify the statement that Dawn of War fails at the fluff something awful. The Tau are intelligent, but they will ally if they're sure that they can. They allied with the Haemonculi against Tyranids because the Haemonculi actively offered to help, and the Tau accepted because it was either that or get eaten.

Also, I'm not questioning the Tau allying, I'm questioning the Daemons allying with them rather than just going at them and trying to kill them all. I'm not suggesting that all Daemons are stupid, but they would just attack the Tau as soon as they materialised. They would only ally if they can actually corrupt, and I don't think they can corrupt Tau.

[Mr Mystery]

As a Tyranid player I'll be the first to say that that abomination of a codex shouldn't be used as a reference for fluff. According to it Dark Eldar hang around and party on-planet after raiding it rather than getting back to the webway as quickly as possible. That part about the Tau just letting Necrons onto their world without a question was absolutely stupid. Only Dawn of War calls the Tau naive, and I don't think I need to qualify the statement that Dawn of War fails at the fluff something awful. The Tau are intelligent, but they will ally if they're sure that they can. They allied with the Haemonculi against Tyranids because the Haemonculi actively offered to help, and the Tau accepted because it was either that or get eaten.

Also, I'm not questioning the Tau allying, I'm questioning the Daemons allying with them rather than just going at them and trying to kill them all. I'm not suggesting that all Daemons are stupid, but they would just attack the Tau as soon as they materialised. They would only ally if they can actually corrupt, and I don't think they can corrupt Tau.

Not necessarily. If the Tau can be used to help keep opposing forces from closing a Warp Rift, that right there is enough reason to manipulate them. You don't have to corrupt someone to make use of their skills.

[gendoikari87]

Allies are a ploy to make more money. That's most of the story right there, but it's one that doesn't increase the price per model, so I'm all for it.

[gendoikari87]

edit: tau/chaos daemons?! DAFUQ

Dude people have wanted to do chaos tau for a while. Some of the conversions are okay, most are just sticking horns and crap on battlesuits.

[PlaguedOne]

All I really want is to include Epidemius in my Nurgle CSMs.

[Tynskel]

I have come up with my allies idea:

Blood Angels: main force
Secondary Force: Ultramarines
HQ: Sicarius
TROOPS: Tactical Squad
FA: Stormtalon
HvSUPPORT: Thunderfire Cannon
maybe ELITES: Techmarine, because the techmarine is an IC.

now give the Tactical Squad Infiltrate. Outflank, and have the Stormtalon attached to them.

[Anggul]

Not necessarily. If the Tau can be used to help keep opposing forces from closing a Warp Rift, that right there is enough reason to manipulate them. You don't have to corrupt someone to make use of their skills.

The Tau are smart enough to see a warp rift, see the murderous horrors pouring from it and say: "We should probably shoot them." Daemons wouldn't put on an act of civility and friendliness as they're vomited forth from a warp rift, and they certainly couldn't feign diplomacy like the Haemonculi did. The Tau would recognise them as a threat and fight. The only reason they get allies is because either they're summoned by worshippers or they've been whispering into the minds of mortals. The Tau are not susceptible to this.

[Defenestratus]

I have a feeling that there are going to be significant drawbacks for taking allied units.

I'd like to see allied units be unable to be scoring units. After all, would the Inquisition TRUST that squad of guardians to hold an objective? Probably not.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

The Tau are smart enough to see a warp rift, see the murderous horrors pouring from it and say: "We should probably shoot them." Daemons wouldn't put on an act of civility and friendliness as they're vomited forth from a warp rift, and they certainly couldn't feign diplomacy like the Haemonculi did. The Tau would recognise them as a threat and fight. The only reason they get allies is because either they're summoned by worshippers or they've been whispering into the minds of mortals. The Tau are not susceptible to this.

But it's possible that by aiding the Tau kill that guy over there, the opposing forces can't get near the rift. Have some secksy slaanesh girls go over and have a bit chat with the ethereals and Water caste to smooth things over.

[Mr Mystery]

The Tau are smart enough to see a warp rift, see the murderous horrors pouring from it and say: "We should probably shoot them." Daemons wouldn't put on an act of civility and friendliness as they're vomited forth from a warp rift, and they certainly couldn't feign diplomacy like the Haemonculi did. The Tau would recognise them as a threat and fight. The only reason they get allies is because either they're summoned by worshippers or they've been whispering into the minds of mortals. The Tau are not susceptible to this.

But to the Tau, with no real concept of Gods and Monsters, they wouldn't appear as murderous horrors. Welll. Not untl it's far, far too late. As I said earlier, the physical form of the Daemon is partly defined by the beholder, and those summoning them. Warp Rifts do occur spontaneously. The Tau remain extremely naiive, and their push for the greater good combined with this means they are more willing to trust people. Simple glamour and weave. Pow. You've got yourself some Tau allies.

[Verilance]

just my opinion...

I think it is just GW taking the Commander Farsight story to what I have always felt is its logical conclusion...

[Anggul]

But it's possible that by aiding the Tau kill that guy over there, the opposing forces can't get near the rift. Have some secksy slaanesh girls go over and have a bit chat with the ethereals and Water caste to smooth things over.

That's my point, the Tau aren't susceptible to the seductions of Chaos or indeed any effects of the warp.


But to the Tau, with no real concept of Gods and Monsters, they wouldn't appear as murderous horrors.

Gods no, but monsters yes. It doesn't matter what you know, if you see a Bloodletter or indeed any Chaos Daemon, even someone with no idea what it is will know that it's bad. The very fact that they can see it means that they can in some way perceive it's intent, after all Daemons are feeling made manifest. I imagine that the reason different people see some daemons differently is that it's their outlook on what that daemon represents. That's the case with Daemonettes at least. The Tau would still see them for the threat that they are even if they'd never seen them before.

The fact is though that the Tau have fought daemons before, and unlike the Imperium they don't kill anyone who has seen them, so they would all know about them. They have no need to after all, as they aren't corrupted by it like humans are.

[Lerra]

Keep in mind that Kroot Mercs are in the Tau codex, and Kroot will ally with damn near anyone. And unlike the Tau, Kroot have a warp presence and are susceptible to Chaos.

For non-Kroot units, you could argue that it's stolen or looted Tau tech piloted by the parent army. I don't see why Dark Eldar or a traitor guardsman couldn't pilot a devilfish or a battlesuit.

I have a Chaos Kroot Mercs army and I'm thrilled to be able to ally them in with my Chaos Daemons. I even have a Kroot-Shaper-turned-Daemon-Prince ready to go.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

That's my point, the Tau aren't susceptible to the seductions of Chaos or indeed any effects of the warp.

It's not that they'd need to do any Warp shenanigans, but I'm sure that in all the infathomable depths of the Warp there has to be at least one Daemon who looks a bit Tau-ish and is pretty decent at diplomacy.

[PlaguedOne]

All possible allies situations can be explained quite simply:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QWpulBcGSvc/TZMKzLjoY9I/AAAAAAAABmI/-BwqVUiQBGo/s1600/Just_as_planned_tzeentch.jpg

[bfmusashi]

I'm amped about allies as my Guardsmen missed their GK line breakers. I'm a little worried about Coteaz+Platoon shenanigans but then I remember all those drop pod AV13 dreadnoughts and I stop caring.

[Montserrat]

Allies gonna kill 40k, give it enougth time.

Dont count me in, and i have almost 700 models in 3 armys.

[Rapture]

Expect vicious, blatant exploitation of the allies system. Also, expect to spend some time side-stepping awful, hideous explanations for why (e.g.) Necrons are all allied with (e.g.) Blood Angels.

The fun of playing different armies is that they all excel in certain ways but fail in others. What fun is a Tau army that is backed up by the most solid CC contingents to ever grace the 6x8? How about an Imperial Guard army with a set of rock hard troops forming the center? Sounds lame. I like when Tau armies get chased off of the table. I like when Imperial Guard troops drop like flies headbutting a bug zapper.

Allies will be interesting - for a while. After some time, the games will start to blend in memory. Playing against armies that are able to compensate for any weakness will make each game seem more like the last. My Tau will not be taking to the field with my Space Marines - regardless of the rules that control such silliness.


For non-Kroot units, you could argue that it's stolen or looted Tau tech piloted by the parent army. I don't see why Dark Eldar or a traitor guardsman couldn't pilot a devilfish or a battlesuit.
Remember that only one of the above mentioned species has hooves. It is safe to assume that differences between the Tau and others certainly prevent, lets say, a human from hijacking a crisis suit and properly utilizing it. If anyone feels the need to justify their selection they should just stick with, "Because it is cool." Anything else is going to be so shoddily thrown together that it will just scream stupid.

Edit:
Can we at least all admit that the allies system is not being brought back because its absence was hurting the game? The company is just trying to make more money. This is nothing to be ashamed of, but lets remember that the primary motivation was not making 40k better to play.

[DrBored]

Here's the rules for some allies.

Brothers in Arms: IC's can join other squads and psychic powers and some other rules can cover allies as well.

Allies of Convenience: Cannot do any of the above. Treat as an enemy that you can't target, shoot, or assault.

Desparate Allies: Same as Convenience, only when an ally is within 6" of the main force, roll a dice. On a 1, that ally (or unit, not sure) can't do anything that turn.

Necrons, for example, have no Brothers in Arms, but are Allies of Convenience with a few (including Grey Knights) and Desparate Allies with many more. Many Space Marine armies are Brothers in Arms with most other Space Marines.

[bfmusashi]

Expect vicious, blatant exploitation of the allies system. Also, expect to spend some time side-stepping awful, hideous explanations for why (e.g.) Necrons are all allied with (e.g.) Blood Angels.

The fun of playing different armies is that they all excel in certain ways but fail in others. What fun is a Tau army that is backed up by the most solid CC contingents to ever grace the 6x8? How about an Imperial Guard army with a set of rock hard troops forming the center? Sounds lame. I like when Tau armies get chased off of the table. I like when Imperial Guard troops drop like flies headbutting a bug zapper.

Allies will be interesting - for a while. After some time, the games will start to blend in memory. Playing against armies that are able to compensate for any weakness will make each game seem more like the last. My Tau will not be taking to the field with my Space Marines - regardless of the rules that control such silliness.


R

I disagree. I thought the omission of allies from current editions was silly and sacrificed much of the universe's background for the sake of compartmentalization. All those times Eldar, IG, Space Marines, the Inquisition, and Orks teamed up were no longer represented on the tabletop. Shoot, most of the times Space Marines are described it's as an accent to an Imperial Guard campaign and it's about time that showed back up on the table.
Besides, the primary complaint you mentioned is the change to the Necron background. While it was odd for them to be okay* with two Space Marine chapters before their background got rewritten in their own codex was odd it does not seem to have been a bad change. At least they aren't robot 'nids now.

*Not killing one post Tyranid invasion and actively trading tech with the Grey Knights.

[Defenestratus]

Just imagine - every IG regiment can now include a squad of 20 death company in their lists. With the fix to Rage, Fleet, and Jump Packs -- and the fact that DC are troops -- well, then I don't see a reason why half of your army shouldn't be a blob of 20 jump pack death company now :P

Ohh, how about a DC dread or two. I know that every SM player has been lusting after our tasty blood talons :P

[Wolfshade]

Allies gonna kill 40k, give it enougth time.

Dont count me in, and i have almost 700 models in 3 armys.
I would question how many 6th ed games have you played?
We only know rumours and hearsay, once it has bedded down and 6th ed codecii are launched then see if they are broken. If you think it is and it kills 40k then you can gloat and say "I told you so", until then keep an open mind until you have tried it.

Give 6th a chance!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I love that people are making assumptions and throwing their toys out of the pram before they've even played 6th ed. :p

[DrLove42]

Yes we know no specific rules. But i'm probably still against it

Even without knowing anything specific we know a few things;

- Armies are going to lose their INTERNAL balence
Now you might think this silly, cos armies aren't balenced. But within their codex they are. Tau for example, are crap in combat. And the points values for their army are set as such, making their effective shooting "cheap" compared to what another army might produce in a different list. Now if you introduce, say GK into allies, they suddenly have very strong shooting, without their weakness of combat

- WE ARE ONE
Armies will lose their flavour. You already see it with WAAC a bit, but this could push it into the casual sector, of games of armies that all do the same thing, with the same units, thtat just look a bit different. Unified physic powers are also threatening this

So even without knowing the rules, I don't think its a good thing.

[Wolfshade]

There is a difference between positing a view based on the rumours, there is another to decry it to be the rule change that destroys 40k.

I would agree with your internal balancing issues, but we will have to wait to know for sure

[bfmusashi]

40k has been RUINED FOREVER!

[Wolfshade]

40k has been RUINED FOREVER!

lols :D

[JMichael]

I am really looking foward to the allies. I play primarlily Sisters and Eldar. Not only can I combine them, but can now bring some much needed firepower to my beloved Sisters. Back in 2nd ed. Sisters could ally with SM, and I have a Dreadnought painted up for my Sisters already!

Rather than focus on how you think this may break the game (none of us have the rules yet, and so don't know the exact wording or details of the rules), lets focus on what fun variables this will bring.

I really want to paint some Dark Eldar and Grey Knights models...now I have a viable reason to buy them, cause I can use them in games as allies!

This is a great boon for all us painters, collectors, and enthusiasts who just want more models and some fun variety in our collections.

[Happosai]

Allies gonna kill 40k, give it enougth time.

Dont count me in, and i have almost 700 models in 3 armys.

I can haz ur stuffz? ;)

[lattd]

I am rather tempted to add a a guard squad and a commander to my marines ala the space marine game.

[Tannarak]

It sounds like the ally detachment has it's own FOC and does not share with the other FOC.

So Tyranids with ally Tyranids could have in it:

6 Tervigons and 4 Trygons



I've thought that there could be some interesting combos in the space marine codex if you had 3 HQs. It sounds like you now could. Deathstars could be very nasty. Chaplain + Shrike + Khan + Assault Termies (or any Blood Angels unit)

An 8 dreadnought list could be trouble.

12 basilisks

etc.

[Satric the 5th]

Speaking as someone that has been playing since rogue trader, I remember the very broken armies of 2nd and 3rd editions, where the inclusion of 1 or 2 models could wipe your opponent, with a bit of trepidation. I was not a fan of it then, and until i'm more able to see how it will affect the game now i'm trying quite hard to view this as a possible good thing for the game. Though I do have some problems with the listing of who can ally with who, i'm trying hard to reserve my dislike of the idea. Some of the more broken things I can foresee is lists like Tau/Necron lists made specifically to get benefit from the Necrons ability to turn day to night, and the Tau's ability to have increased night fighting distances. Just to name one of the possible problems. If the ally listing made a bit more sense like marines with other marines and on occasion with sister or guard, but Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons, ect. should be right out. Yes I know any good commander would use just about anything as disposable shock troops, the marine chapters have a very defined view of reality, and I cannot see a chapter like say the Salamanders allying with the Eldar except in the most dire of circumstances, and then probably turning on them as soon as they're use was no longer to the marines benefit. And I really don't see any marine chapter ever allying with Orks or Necrons, a zeno is still a zeno no matter what way you try to put a spin on it. Even some of the more "out there" chapters, marines malevolent, still have a very defined sense of honor, even if it is just as they precieve it to be.

[madlib]

K, I'm starting to see how the different types of allies, desperate, convenience, battle brothers, etc... allows for the fluff to remain unchanged. In a way it might actually support the current fluff more than detract from it. That was a pretty clever approach by GW.

[Wolfshade]

I think the thing I like best about this allies is that you can start a new army without having to buy 1000pts worth from the outset, so you can start you IG as a detachment for your main army and slowly build it up over time.